Cost of State Registration? [Archive]

Rachel

January 21st 06, 08:42 PM

RST Engineering wrote:
> Does anybody know if federal case law exists challenging state registration
> of what the federal government already registers?
>
> Jim

I'm probably remembering this incorrectly, but there was a time in
Massachusets or a state up there, where the state wanted to issue state
pilot certificates to pilots. The FAA was not too happy about that, and
it never materialized. I can't remember the state or date...my aviation
law class was a verrry long time ago.

Brien K. Meehan

January 21st 06, 08:47 PM

It a penny per pound in Michigan.

Jon Kraus

January 21st 06, 09:08 PM

37.40 for Indiana for our '79 Mooney

tom wrote:
> I just recieved my annual bill from the state of Oregon for registering
> my airplane: $50 for single engine. How does this compare to other
> states?
> tom pettit
>

Michelle

January 21st 06, 09:14 PM

tom wrote:
> I just recieved my annual bill from the state of Oregon for registering
> my airplane: $50 for single engine. How does this compare to other
> states?
> tom pettit
>
$5 for the registration
$450 for the annual taxes, varies by location.
Michelle

skym

January 21st 06, 09:20 PM

$50 in Montana for a C172

Jay Honeck

January 21st 06, 09:26 PM

>I just recieved my annual bill from the state of Oregon for registering
> my airplane: $50 for single engine. How does this compare to other
> states?

Just paid mine. $35.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

Rip

January 21st 06, 09:46 PM

tom wrote:
> I just recieved my annual bill from the state of Oregon for registering
> my airplane: $50 for single engine. How does this compare to other
> states?
> tom pettit
>
$90 in Connecticut, for aircraft under 6000 pounds.

Rip

George Patterson

January 21st 06, 11:27 PM

tom wrote:
> I just recieved my annual bill from the state of Oregon for registering
> my airplane: $50 for single engine. How does this compare to other
> states?

No annual bill for New Jersey.

George Patterson
Coffee is only a way of stealing time that should by rights belong to
your slightly older self.

Helen Woods

January 22nd 06, 12:05 AM

I think VA was $10 but they have a locally collected annual personal
property tax of several to many hundred each year depending upon the
cost of the plane and where it is based.

MD has no annual registration fee but socked me for quite a bit when I
moved here as part of a sales tax, even though I didn't buy the plane
here! At least that's a one time fee.

Helen

BillJ

January 22nd 06, 12:22 AM

B A R R Y wrote:

>On 21 Jan 2006 12:47:14 -0800, "Brien K. Meehan"
> wrote:
>
>
>
>>It a penny per pound in Michigan.
>>
>>
>
>
>So for a typical light single you'd pay $1400-1500?
>
>Or, worse yet, is it based on gross, where a light single might go
>$2400-2600?
>
>If so, that's terrible...
>
>
Watch your decimal place!

BillJ

January 22nd 06, 12:23 AM

tom wrote:
> I just recieved my annual bill from the state of Oregon for registering
> my airplane: $50 for single engine. How does this compare to other
> states?
> tom pettit
>
Zero in Pennsylvania

Dave Stadt

January 22nd 06, 12:25 AM

"B A R R Y" > wrote in message
...
> On 21 Jan 2006 12:47:14 -0800, "Brien K. Meehan"
> > wrote:
>
>>It a penny per pound in Michigan.
>
>
> So for a typical light single you'd pay $1400-1500?
>
> Or, worse yet, is it based on gross, where a light single might go
> $2400-2600?
>
> If so, that's terrible...

Might want to check decimal point placement ie. move left two.

Doug

January 22nd 06, 12:38 AM

No registration for aircraft in Colorado. No fee either. (No sales tax
on "aircraft parts" either).

George Patterson

January 22nd 06, 02:13 AM

B A R R Y wrote:
> On 21 Jan 2006 12:47:14 -0800, "Brien K. Meehan"
> > wrote:
>>It a penny per pound in Michigan.
>
> So for a typical light single you'd pay $1400-1500?

More like $14 to $15. My 2100 lb MGW Maule would be $21 at that rate.

George Patterson
Coffee is only a way of stealing time that should by rights belong to
your slightly older self.

George Patterson

January 22nd 06, 02:15 AM

Helen Woods wrote:

> MD has no annual registration fee but socked me for quite a bit when I
> moved here as part of a sales tax, even though I didn't buy the plane
> here! At least that's a one time fee.

That's the way New Jersey is, but we also have another wrinkle. The sales/usage
tax is waived if the plane is used and purchased from a private owner.

George Patterson
Coffee is only a way of stealing time that should by rights belong to
your slightly older self.

Jim Macklin

January 22nd 06, 03:27 AM

Penny a pound, 3400 pound Bonanza, $34.00
Not all states have state aviation departments or charge a
TAX specifically on airplanes. Most states do have personal
property taxes or business taxes.

--
James H. Macklin
ATP,CFI,A&P

--
The people think the Constitution protects their rights;
But government sees it as an obstacle to be overcome.
some support
http://www.usdoj.gov/olc/secondamendment2.htm
See http://www.fija.org/ more about your rights and duties.

"B A R R Y" > wrote
in message
...
| On 21 Jan 2006 12:47:14 -0800, "Brien K. Meehan"
| > wrote:
|
| >It a penny per pound in Michigan.
|
|
| So for a typical light single you'd pay $1400-1500?
|
| Or, worse yet, is it based on gross, where a light single
might go
| $2400-2600?
|
| If so, that's terrible...

Robert M. Gary

January 22nd 06, 03:28 AM

California just ups the gas tax (notice how the gas prices drop when
you enter AZ). California also charges you 1% of the aircraft value per
year as property tax and a one time fee of about 8% as sale/use tax.

-Robert

Robert M. Gary

January 22nd 06, 03:29 AM

What the gas price at the pump in California vs AZ though. You'll
notice the state adds something extra for themselves.

Newps

January 22nd 06, 03:47 AM

My 64 Bonanza is $20 here in Montana. It would have been $50 if it
would have been less than 40 years old. A two seater is also $20.

tom wrote:
> I just recieved my annual bill from the state of Oregon for registering
> my airplane: $50 for single engine. How does this compare to other
> states?
> tom pettit
>

BTIZ

January 22nd 06, 03:55 AM

No charge in NV,
but we do pay "personal property tax" on them

"tom" > wrote in message
ups.com...
>I just recieved my annual bill from the state of Oregon for registering
> my airplane: $50 for single engine. How does this compare to other
> states?
> tom pettit
>

BTIZ

January 22nd 06, 03:56 AM

a lot of states wanted to do that after 9/11
but they lost out on "jurisdiction" as most states don't have "air
regulations"
they are all Federal regulations.

BT

"Rachel" > wrote in message
. ..
> RST Engineering wrote:
>> Does anybody know if federal case law exists challenging state
>> registration of what the federal government already registers?
>>
>> Jim
>
> I'm probably remembering this incorrectly, but there was a time in
> Massachusets or a state up there, where the state wanted to issue state
> pilot certificates to pilots. The FAA was not too happy about that, and
> it never materialized. I can't remember the state or date...my aviation
> law class was a verrry long time ago.

Jose

January 22nd 06, 04:26 AM

>>It a penny per pound in Michigan.
> So for a typical light single you'd pay $1400-1500?

You have very expensive pennies, or very heavy light singles.

Jose
--
Money: what you need when you run out of brains.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

Jerry

January 22nd 06, 05:07 AM

None in North Carolina.
Normal personal property taxes unless antique (1954 or earlier) then tax
value is $5000. Tax rate varies by location but is roughly 1%. 0.77% for
me.

Jerry in NC

"tom" > wrote in message
ups.com...
>I just recieved my annual bill from the state of Oregon for registering
> my airplane: $50 for single engine. How does this compare to other
> states?
> tom pettit
>

Marty

January 22nd 06, 06:19 AM

"tom" > wrote in message
ups.com...
>I just recieved my annual bill from the state of Oregon for registering
> my airplane: $50 for single engine. How does this compare to other
> states?
> tom pettit
>

Biennially in Illinois, $20 for aircraft, $10 for pilot.

You get free admission to all IL.safety seninars & clinics. I always liked
receiving the pkg.with the new state airport directory & map, that
info.alone is worth $15 a year.
Marty

Peter Duniho

January 22nd 06, 08:10 AM

"RST Engineering" > wrote in message
.. .
> Does anybody know if federal case law exists challenging state
> registration of what the federal government already registers?

I'm not aware of any successful challenges. Every now and then, someone
claims that states have no right to require pilot registration, or aircraft
registration, or whatever, due to federal precedence. I haven't seen anyone
actually prove that, however.

I think they'd have a better chance doing it with pilot registration. The
aircraft registration, at least in WA, is basically a property tax. They do
exempt aircraft not flown in the state (and some other stuff), but I don't
think that's the same as requiring registration as a condition of operation.
After all, aircraft can be registered elsewhere and still flown in the
state. So it would be harder to assert that the state was trying to horn in
on the federal government's territory.

Even the pilot registration is debatable, since it's applied to state
residents, not to pilots generally.

Pete

Grumman-581

January 22nd 06, 10:28 AM

As far as I know, Texas doesn't have one... At least I've never been charged
one... We also don't have a state income tax... Their philosophy seems to be
to get it on the property tax, but overall, it's still cheaper to live here
than most other states...

Jim Macklin

January 22nd 06, 12:27 PM

It is about the only thing in Illinois that works well, back
when I lived in Springfield it was $5 and even CFI renewal
clinics were free, of course the FAA actually did those,
before that was left to the associations and businesses to
renew CFIs.

--
James H. Macklin
ATP,CFI,A&P

--
The people think the Constitution protects their rights;
But government sees it as an obstacle to be overcome.
some support
http://www.usdoj.gov/olc/secondamendment2.htm
See http://www.fija.org/ more about your rights and duties.

"Marty" > wrote in message
...
|
| "tom" > wrote in message
|
ups.com...
| >I just recieved my annual bill from the state of Oregon
for registering
| > my airplane: $50 for single engine. How does this
compare to other
| > states?
| > tom pettit
| >
|
| Biennially in Illinois, $20 for aircraft, $10 for pilot.
|
| You get free admission to all IL.safety seninars &
clinics. I always liked
| receiving the pkg.with the new state airport directory &
map, that
| info.alone is worth $15 a year.
| Marty
|
|

Joe Morris

January 22nd 06, 02:34 PM

Richard Riley > writes:

>:tom wrote:
>:> I just recieved my annual bill from the state of Oregon for registering
>:> my airplane: $50 for single engine. How does this compare to other
>:> states?

>Zero in California - but 1.25% property tax, and they get to decide
>how much your plane is worth. And it doesn't matter if it's
>registered in another state.

....and the assessor's office tries to make that "it doesn't matter if
it's based in another state."

Every time I fly into the Los Angeles area (usually parking at
Long Beach) I can rely on a query from the county assessor's office
showing up a month or two later demanding that I certify the amount
of time that I was in California, or expect to be paying property tax.

I've never had that problem in the SF area (usually parking at Oakland)
although I should note that I've not been to California for several years
and things may have changed.

Joe Morris (based in Virginia)

john smith

January 22nd 06, 04:13 PM

In article >,
"Michael Ware" > wrote:

> Ohio - $15 per seat annually (down from a proposed $100/yr)

Has that been passed?

When does it take effect?

It has been discussed for the past several years, but the legislature
had not acted on it.

Michael Ware

January 22nd 06, 04:34 PM

Enacted July 7, 2005. Went into effect Jan 1.

"john smith" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> "Michael Ware" > wrote:
>
> > Ohio - $15 per seat annually (down from a proposed $100/yr)
>
> Has that been passed?
>
> When does it take effect?
>
> It has been discussed for the past several years, but the legislature
> had not acted on it.

Montblack

January 22nd 06, 06:01 PM

("BTIZ" wrote)
> No charge in NV,
> but we do pay "personal property tax" on them

On a 172 worth, say, $50K how much tax would that be in Nevada?

Montblack

Jay Honeck

January 22nd 06, 07:30 PM

> It is about the only thing in Illinois that works well, back
> when I lived in Springfield it was $5 and even CFI renewal
> clinics were free, of course the FAA actually did those,
> before that was left to the associations and businesses to
> renew CFIs.

Must be where all the money from those danged tollways has been going...

;-)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

Chris W

January 22nd 06, 09:11 PM

Joe Morris wrote:

>...and the assessor's office tries to make that "it doesn't matter if
>it's based in another state."
>
>Every time I fly into the Los Angeles area (usually parking at
>Long Beach) I can rely on a query from the county assessor's office
>showing up a month or two later demanding that I certify the amount
>of time that I was in California, or expect to be paying property tax.
>
>

Let me see if I understand this. CA expects you to pay property tax if
you park your plane there for a few days, even if you live outside CA?

--
Chris W
KE5GIX

Gift Giving Made Easy
Get the gifts you want &
give the gifts they want
One stop wish list for any gift,
from anywhere, for any occasion!
http://thewishzone.com

BTIZ

January 22nd 06, 09:26 PM

I cannot speak for a C-172.
but a 1965 Piper Pawnee worth about $30K when we bought it,
and a Grob 103 sailplane worth about $35K
and an LS-4 sailplane worth about $25K
and two other planes that have depreciated below tax value.
all others are depreciated annually by the tax dept.

We paid a total of $445 in 2005.
BT

"Montblack" > wrote in message
...
> ("BTIZ" wrote)
>> No charge in NV,
>> but we do pay "personal property tax" on them
>
>
> On a 172 worth, say, $50K how much tax would that be in Nevada?
>
>
> Montblack

Peter Duniho

January 22nd 06, 09:40 PM

"Chris W" > wrote in message
news:FzSAf.1364$2o5.694@dukeread11...
> Let me see if I understand this. CA expects you to pay property tax if you
> park your plane there for a few days, even if you live outside CA?

No. They expect him to stipulate that he has not operated the airplane
within CA for whatever time period it is that WOULD require him to pay their
tax.

I'm surprised that the county assessor is so thorough that they manage to
observe every single time he shows up. Maybe they have some arrangement
with ATC? But the general idea isn't unique to CA; Washington State has a
similar law, requiring airplanes operated in the state for some minimum
amount of time per year to pay the excise tax. But as far as I know, they
aren't so aggressive about collecting it. I think you'd have to be a pretty
egregious violator for them to notice.

Pete

john smith

January 22nd 06, 09:50 PM

In article >,
"Michael Ware" > wrote:

> Enacted July 7, 2005. Went into effect Jan 1.

Thanks. I stopped registering the plane when the price went from $12 to
$100. I have been waiting for it to come back down.

Jim Logajan

January 22nd 06, 10:46 PM

Chris W > wrote:
> Joe Morris wrote:
>
>>...and the assessor's office tries to make that "it doesn't matter if
>>it's based in another state."
>>
>>Every time I fly into the Los Angeles area (usually parking at
>>Long Beach) I can rely on a query from the county assessor's office
>>showing up a month or two later demanding that I certify the amount
>>of time that I was in California, or expect to be paying property tax.
>>
>>
>
> Let me see if I understand this. CA expects you to pay property tax if
> you park your plane there for a few days, even if you live outside CA?

_If_ California applies the 1.25% "property tax" _only_ to out of state
property brought into the state but not to property created or exchanged
intra-state, they may be acting in violation of the Commerce clause of
the U.S. Constitution[1] if the tax discriminates against interstate
commerce.

In Woosley v. State of California[2][3] the state lost the right to
charge a tax only against those who bought their cars out of state and
brought them into the state.

[1] "Section 8 - Powers of Congress
[...]
To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States,
and with the Indian Tribes;"

Also possibly related:
"Section 9 - Limits on Congress
[...]
No Preference shall be given by any Regulation of Commerce or Revenue to
the Ports of one State over those of another: nor shall Vessels bound to,
or from, one State, be obliged to enter, clear, or pay Duties in
another."

"Section 10 - Powers prohibited of States
[...]
No State shall, without the Consent of the Congress, lay any Imposts or
Duties on Imports or Exports, except what may be absolutely necessary for
executing it's inspection Laws: and the net Produce of all Duties and
Imposts, laid by any State on Imports or Exports, shall be for the Use of
the Treasury of the United States; and all such Laws shall be subject to
the Revision and Controul of the Congress."

[2] http://www.propertytaxrefunds.biz/woosley.htm
[3] http://www.bajaquest.com/bajanews/archives/archv004.htm

TaxSrv

January 22nd 06, 11:39 PM

"john smith" wrote:
>
> Thanks. I stopped registering the plane when the price went from
> $12 to $100. I have been waiting for it to come back down.

I like lower taxes like anybody, but in Ohio as referenced here, if you
live in smog-check County, and a County with auto-registration add-on
tax, your dinky little compact truck costs you $75 to register. Have a
pilot-specific vanity plate it's then $95. Airplane was to be $100, but
that money was by new law to go to a dedicated airport improvement fund.

AOPA I think shot itself in the foot bitchin' about this tax. Made us
look like a bunch of cheapskates before State legislators and the Office
of Aviation. Flying in to talk to latter people in AOPA's CitationJet,
as the Office is located on an airport.

Agree or not, I thought it was comical. AOPA wrote letters to Gov. Bob
Taft pleading for relief on our behalf. Yes, a [slightly competent]
member of the prestigious Taft family, but who at the time was under
criminal investigation. For not reporting a constituent gift of a set
of freakin' golf balls. Pure politics. Taft recently pleaded no
contest to the misdemeanor; no jail time.

I get the image of Taft barking at his Chief of Staff, "Who's this guy
named Boyer? Find out what the First Lady pays to register her car.
And get my criminal defense att'y on the phone!" :-)

Fred F.

Michael Ware

January 23rd 06, 01:09 AM

Here's the link.

http://www.dot.state.oh.us/Aviation/AircraftReg/06Reg4Web.pdf

"john smith" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> "Michael Ware" > wrote:
>
> > Enacted July 7, 2005. Went into effect Jan 1.
>
> Thanks. I stopped registering the plane when the price went from $12 to
> $100. I have been waiting for it to come back down.

john smith

January 23rd 06, 01:51 AM

In article >,
"TaxSrv" > wrote:

> "john smith" wrote:
> >
> > Thanks. I stopped registering the plane when the price went from
> > $12 to $100. I have been waiting for it to come back down.
>
> I like lower taxes like anybody, but in Ohio as referenced here, if you
> live in smog-check County, and a County with auto-registration add-on
> tax, your dinky little compact truck costs you $75 to register. Have a
> pilot-specific vanity plate it's then $95. Airplane was to be $100, but
> that money was by new law to go to a dedicated airport improvement fund.
>
> AOPA I think shot itself in the foot bitchin' about this tax. Made us
> look like a bunch of cheapskates before State legislators and the Office
> of Aviation. Flying in to talk to latter people in AOPA's CitationJet,
> as the Office is located on an airport.

Rudy is much of a voice for aviation in Ohio.

> Agree or not, I thought it was comical. AOPA wrote letters to Gov. Bob
> Taft pleading for relief on our behalf. Yes, a [slightly competent]
> member of the prestigious Taft family, but who at the time was under
> criminal investigation. For not reporting a constituent gift of a set
> of freakin' golf balls. Pure politics. Taft recently pleaded no
> contest to the misdemeanor; no jail time.

Taft's former Chief of Staff is still under indictment for actions in
his previous employ. Access to the Governor was so very tightly
controlled by the former Chief of Staff that many in the state wonder
what Taft actually knew. His staff is so afraid of his volatile temper
that they would not tell the Governor bad news.

> I get the image of Taft barking at his Chief of Staff, "Who's this guy
> named Boyer? Find out what the First Lady pays to register her car.
> And get my criminal defense att'y on the phone!" :-)

Mr Meeks?

TaxSrv

January 23rd 06, 02:58 AM

"john smith" wrote:
> > AOPA I think shot itself in the foot bitchin' about this tax. Made
us
> > look like a bunch of cheapskates before State legislators and the
Office
> > of Aviation. Flying in to talk to latter people in AOPA's
CitationJet,
> > as the Office is located on an airport.
>
> Rudy is much of a voice for aviation in Ohio.
>

Rudy _was_ the voice for aviation in Ohio. He's moved on to Port
Authority Director out in a big city in the Northwest. He meekly told
media out there that he was "just an airplane guy." We in our airport
association had met him. A pilot himself in the state's little twin,
but on around 60K salary didn't fly his own plane AFAIK. He probably
had perspective on AOPA lobbying, but I still criticize AOPA for telling
any official in my Ohio that I can't afford $100, for the pure purpose
of telling members in the other 49 that AOPA is working for you. The
"onerous tax" per AOPA's mag.

Fred F.

john smith

January 23rd 06, 03:55 AM

In article >,
john smith > wrote:

> Rudy is much of a voice for aviation in Ohio.

OOPS!
Should read: Rudy is not much of a voice for aviation in Ohio.

Matt Barrow

January 23rd 06, 01:35 PM

"TaxSrv" > wrote in message
>
> AOPA I think shot itself in the foot bitchin' about this tax. Made us
> look like a bunch of cheapskates before State legislators and the Office
> of Aviation.

Kinda like those guys who threw the tea in the harbor, huh?

Roger

January 24th 06, 08:56 AM

On 21 Jan 2006 08:09:09 -0800, "tom" > wrote:

>I just recieved my annual bill from the state of Oregon for registering
>my airplane: $50 for single engine. How does this compare to other
>states?
>tom pettit

Michigan, $1.00 per 100 wt, so for my Deb which grosses at 3100 it's
$31. For my car the license plats are well over a hundred.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com
Roger

Jay Beckman

January 24th 06, 10:43 AM

I'm not an owner but I have to say I'm stunned...

Considering how much dinero the state of Arizona wants for me to register
earth-bound vehicles, I would have supposed it costs far more to register an
aircraft than it would appear it does.

Very interesting...

Jay Beckman
PP-ASEL
AZ Cloudbusters
Chandler, AZ

George Patterson

January 24th 06, 03:43 PM

Jay Beckman wrote:

> Considering how much dinero the state of Arizona wants for me to register
> earth-bound vehicles, I would have supposed it costs far more to register an
> aircraft than it would appear it does.

Arizona uses the auto registration money to support roads for those autos. How
much does Arizona spend on facilities for aircraft?

George Patterson
Coffee is only a way of stealing time that should by rights belong to
your slightly older self.

Jay Beckman

January 24th 06, 06:51 PM

"George Patterson" > wrote in message
news:_WrBf.15463$Me5.5086@trnddc05...
> Jay Beckman wrote:
>
>> Considering how much dinero the state of Arizona wants for me to register
>> earth-bound vehicles, I would have supposed it costs far more to register
>> an aircraft than it would appear it does.
>
> Arizona uses the auto registration money to support roads for those autos.
> How much does Arizona spend on facilities for aircraft?
>
> George Patterson

I think Arizona pilots are getting their fare share of Government monies:

From:

http://www.azdot.gov/aviation/index.asp

I found this report on Arizona's five year aviation plan:

http://shorterlink.com/?ZIRW7N

And then you have this from AOPA's Regional Affairs section:

------- Begin Quote -----
May 27, 2004 - In a textbook example of unified general aviation interests,
airports, pilots, and aviation advocates have put two measures on the desk
of Gov. Janet Napolitano (D-Ariz.) that should significantly increase state
funding for airport safety and capacity improvements and reduce aviation
taxes.

AOPA Western Regional Representative Stacy Howard and Michael Racy, the
Airport Support Network volunteer for Marana Regional Airport and a
registered lobbyist who represents the Tucson Airport Authority and Pima
County, helped convince lawmakers to use 100% of the state's
aviation-related tax and fee revenues to help fix general aviation airports.
The two also helped win approval for SB1020, a bill to reduce the state's
tax on antique aircraft.

During the budget crunch of the past several fiscal years, Arizona had
diverted approximately half ($7 million to $8 million annually) of the
aviation fuel taxes, aircraft registration fees, and aircraft property taxes
the state collects to the general fund. Governor Napolitano this year
proposed rededicating all those aviation taxes to help maintain airports - a
move strongly supported by AOPA and this week approved by state lawmakers.

Howard testified before both legislative chambers supporting SB1020. The
measure cuts the tax on an estimated 700 "antique" aircraft from 0.5% of
value to a flat $20 annual fee. AOPA members in Arizona played a big role,
contacting legislators and convincing them to remove procedural hurdles to
the bill's passage.

----- End Quote -----

Jay Beckman
PP-ASEL
AZ Cloudbusters
Chandler, AZ

Jim Macklin

January 24th 06, 07:58 PM

How many miles of roads does your car use, compared to miles
of runway?

--
The people think the Constitution protects their rights;
But government sees it as an obstacle to be overcome.
some support
http://www.usdoj.gov/olc/secondamendment2.htm
See http://www.fija.org/ more about your rights and duties.

"Jay Beckman" > wrote in message
news:QwnBf.11236$jR.2385@fed1read01...
| I'm not an owner but I have to say I'm stunned...
|
| Considering how much dinero the state of Arizona wants for
me to register
| earth-bound vehicles, I would have supposed it costs far
more to register an
| aircraft than it would appear it does.
|
| Very interesting...
|
| Jay Beckman
| PP-ASEL
| AZ Cloudbusters
| Chandler, AZ
|
|

Grumman-581

January 24th 06, 08:25 PM

"Jay Beckman" > wrote in message
news:QwnBf.11236$jR.2385@fed1read01...
> I'm not an owner but I have to say I'm stunned...
>
> Considering how much dinero the state of Arizona wants for me to register
> earth-bound vehicles, I would have supposed it costs far more to register
an
> aircraft than it would appear it does.

Unlike cars, aircraft require basically no expendature on their part for
infrastructure to allow the aircraft to operate, so it basically is just a
cheap tax for them to implement... Easy money, low expendature... Kind of
like speeding tickets for automobiles...

Jay Beckman

January 24th 06, 08:32 PM

"Jim Macklin" > wrote in message
news:jLvBf.69411$QW2.129@dukeread08...
> How many miles of roads does your car use, compared to miles
> of runway?
>

Well, that really wasn't my point...

I didn't put a lot of emphasis on it, but what I was getting at was the cost
to register versus the cost of the vehicle being registered.

Aircraft cost more than cars but (it would seem) cost far less to register
on a "per thousand dollars of value" basis.

I was mearly expressing a sense of suprise...I'm certainly not advocating
that pilots dig deeper than they already have to.

And as I said, I'm not an owner so I'm only reacting to the actual numbers
being quoted without a complete understanding of additonal taxes and fees
that go with buying an owning.

Jay B

Peter Duniho

January 24th 06, 08:48 PM

"Jay Beckman" > wrote in message
news:_8wBf.11272$jR.8415@fed1read01...
> "Jim Macklin" > wrote in message
> news:jLvBf.69411$QW2.129@dukeread08...
>> How many miles of roads does your car use, compared to miles
>> of runway?
>
> Well, that really wasn't my point...
>
> I didn't put a lot of emphasis on it, but what I was getting at was the
> cost to register versus the cost of the vehicle being registered.

But your "point" ignored the reality of the situation. At least in some
respects, supporting a motor vehicle costs more than supporting an airplane.
So why shouldn't the tax on a "per-value" basis be more?

I don't think it's legitimate to compare taxes between different kinds of
goods and expect them to come out the same on a "per-value" basis.
Otherwise, we could just have a single sales/use tax on everything, right?

Does it seem odd to you that your home isn't taxed the same rate on a
"per-value" basis as your car? That would be just as valid a point as the
one you were making in your post.

Pete

Jay Beckman

January 24th 06, 09:09 PM

"Peter Duniho" > wrote in message
...
> "Jay Beckman" > wrote in message
> news:_8wBf.11272$jR.8415@fed1read01...
>> "Jim Macklin" > wrote in message
>> news:jLvBf.69411$QW2.129@dukeread08...
>>> How many miles of roads does your car use, compared to miles
>>> of runway?
>>
>> Well, that really wasn't my point...
>>
>> I didn't put a lot of emphasis on it, but what I was getting at was the
>> cost to register versus the cost of the vehicle being registered.
>
> But your "point" ignored the reality of the situation. At least in some
> respects, supporting a motor vehicle costs more than supporting an
> airplane. So why shouldn't the tax on a "per-value" basis be more?
>

Valid point.

> I don't think it's legitimate to compare taxes between different kinds of
> goods and expect them to come out the same on a "per-value" basis.
> Otherwise, we could just have a single sales/use tax on everything, right?

Also true.

> Does it seem odd to you that your home isn't taxed the same rate on a
> "per-value" basis as your car? That would be just as valid a point as the
> one you were making in your post.

Fair 'nuff.

Jay B

Jim Macklin

January 24th 06, 09:25 PM

Governments only have a right to tax for services rendered
and only for services actually wanted by the public.
Passing a law to require that you use a "service" just so
you can tax is an abuse. Unfortunately, governments have
the power to tax for whatever they want, whenever they want.
As has been said, the power to tax is the power to destroy.

Most state aviation departments, if they even have one, do
little but duplicate Federal regulations, inspections and
controls. Small airports are owned by cities, counties and
private individuals [who are taxed very heavily] and few
states actually own any airports. Some states do provide
real services and the pilots and passengers in those states
get a benefit. But many states just tax because they can.

--
James H. Macklin
ATP,CFI,A&P

--
The people think the Constitution protects their rights;
But government sees it as an obstacle to be overcome.
some support
http://www.usdoj.gov/olc/secondamendment2.htm
See http://www.fija.org/ more about your rights and duties.

"Jay Beckman" > wrote in message
news:_8wBf.11272$jR.8415@fed1read01...
| "Jim Macklin" > wrote
in message
| news:jLvBf.69411$QW2.129@dukeread08...
| > How many miles of roads does your car use, compared to
miles
| > of runway?
| >
|
| Well, that really wasn't my point...
|
| I didn't put a lot of emphasis on it, but what I was
getting at was the cost
| to register versus the cost of the vehicle being
registered.
|
| Aircraft cost more than cars but (it would seem) cost far
less to register
| on a "per thousand dollars of value" basis.
|
| I was mearly expressing a sense of suprise...I'm certainly
not advocating
| that pilots dig deeper than they already have to.
|
| And as I said, I'm not an owner so I'm only reacting to
the actual numbers
| being quoted without a complete understanding of additonal
taxes and fees
| that go with buying an owning.
|
| Jay B
|
|

George Patterson

January 25th 06, 03:06 AM

Jay Beckman wrote:

> I didn't put a lot of emphasis on it, but what I was getting at was the cost
> to register versus the cost of the vehicle being registered.

But you still seem to have missed the point. The major point of license fees is
to pay the costs of infrastructure. There's a lot of that with cars, so the
registration cost is high. There's comparatively little of that for light
aircraft, so the registration fees are low. The fees have nothing to do with the
relative values of the aircraft and autos, and shouldn't have.

George Patterson
Coffee is only a way of stealing time that should by rights belong to
your slightly older self.

Jay Beckman

January 25th 06, 04:10 AM

"George Patterson" > wrote in message
news:6XBBf.7851$zh2.3507@trnddc01...
> Jay Beckman wrote:
>
>> I didn't put a lot of emphasis on it, but what I was getting at was the
>> cost to register versus the cost of the vehicle being registered.
>
> But you still seem to have missed the point. The major point of license
> fees is to pay the costs of infrastructure. There's a lot of that with
> cars, so the registration cost is high. There's comparatively little of
> that for light aircraft, so the registration fees are low. The fees have
> nothing to do with the relative values of the aircraft and autos, and
> shouldn't have.
>
> George Patterson

As it applies in your explaination, I'd have to agree.

Now, let me ask this (simply as a point of discussion):

Does our use of aviation's "infrastructure" really end when the wheels leave
the ground?

With the FAA crying poverty and the spectre of "Use Fees" looming over GA,
what happens when the argument becomes:

Pilots are using an "aviation infrastructure" anytime we're flying in the
National Airspace System."

- IFR flying?
- VFR pilots requesting flight following?
- Operations at Towered airports?
- Class B, C or D transitions?
- FSS?
- Flight Watch?

Are we ever truly free of, or without need of, the GA "infrastructure?"

Your thoughts?

Jay B

Peter Duniho

January 25th 06, 08:25 AM

"Jay Beckman" > wrote in message
news:SSCBf.11315$jR.11298@fed1read01...
> [...]
> Are we ever truly free of, or without need of, the GA "infrastructure?"

Depends on what services you actually use. But plenty of pilots use
practically no infrastructure except the pavement they operate from.

That said, I think it's a mistake to expect any of the fees to be rational.
Registration fees for cars are not exclusively used for roads and related
maintenance for example. The actual cost of registration varies from state
to state (just as it does for airplanes), as does the means of calculating
(fees, taxes, some combination).

The different in infrastructure expenses is just a single example of why the
fees can't really be compared directly. It's not an entire explanation, nor
should one expect the fees to be otherwise comparable if the infrastructure
costs did happen to be similar, or even the same.

The cost of registering an airplane, and of registering a car, is fairly
arbitrary. Fees are structured however each individual state chooses to
structure them, with the money going to wherever each individual state
choose to send them. Each state constitution may restrict those aspects,
but each state has its own constitution as well. Some states may appear to
make more sense than some others, but I don't think there's any reason for
any state to be expected to be entirely sensible. It's government, after
all. :)

Pete

Jay Beckman

January 25th 06, 09:00 AM

"Peter Duniho" > wrote in message
...
>Some states may appear to make more sense than some others, but I don't
>think >there's any reason for any state to be expected to be entirely
>sensible. It's >government, after all. :)
>
> Pete

Pete,

Ain't that the truth..

Jay B

Matt Barrow

January 25th 06, 01:32 PM