Airplane Batteries

[[email protected]]

I am a new airplane owner (since May). My mechanic replaced my battery
last June. No choices, I figured he bought the one it needed.

Just serviced it (added water). It's in a REALLY awkward spot to get at
and see inside the cells -- on the floor under the instrument panel of a
plane with no doors (climb in over the sides). I understand if the water
level is not just right, it will boil over and then needs to be cleaned
with baking soda and water. I've heard since that the battery should be
removed when servicing. Today I heard you can buy a dry battery, that
there is controversy about which lasts longer, but that maybe since mine
is so difficult to access, the dry type would be a better choice.

Thoughts/Opinions?

[Viperdoc]

I use a recombinant gas (RG) battery in my aerobatic plane, since acid
leakage could be catastrophic. They won't leak at all, and there's nothing
to check.

The down side is that they need replacement every two or three years as
compared to a regular lead acid battery.

[150flivver]

My thought is this should be posted under "owning" not piloting.

[[email protected]]

"150flivver" > wrote:
> My thought is this should be posted under "owning" not piloting.

Sorry if it's a problem here. I just figured if we can discuss hotels
and restaurants, airplane batteries shouldn't bother anyone.

[Morgans]

"150flivver" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> My thought is this should be posted under "owning" not piloting.

Compared to all of the other stuff that gets posted, it's close enough.
After all, someone has to pilot that plane, with the battery acid leaking on
their feet! ;-)
--
Jim in NC

[Jose]

> I just figured if we can discuss hotels
> and restaurants, airplane batteries shouldn't bother anyone.

Hotels and restaurants have nothing to do with aviation, so they are
fine in an aviation newsgroup. OTOH, aircraft batteries have to be OT
in an aviation newsgroup or the penguin would explode.

:) Jose
--
Money: what you need when you run out of brains.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Peter Duniho]

> wrote in message
...
> Sorry if it's a problem here. I just figured if we can discuss hotels
> and restaurants, airplane batteries shouldn't bother anyone.

I'll echo the recommendation for posting in r.a.owning. Not because there's
a problem posting your post here, but because you are likely to get better
answers there.

That said, I'll also echo "Viperdoc"'s recommendation for an RG battery. I
think that might be what you mean by "dry". They are sealed, ensuring no
leaks (barring some failure of the battery, of course). They aren't exactly
"dry"...but close enough for your purposes, I think.

Pete

[Grumman-581]

"Viperdoc" wrote in message
...
> The down side is that they need replacement every two or three years as
> compared to a regular lead acid battery.

Hell, that sounds *exactly* like a regular lead acid battery...

[Jim Macklin]

There are options, such as gell-cell. The problem with the
battery having low acid (liquid) level is that the cell
plates must be submerged in liquid electrolyte in order to
work. If the plates become exposed to air and dry out they
will become useless.
Overcharging will over-heat the battery and boil away the
electrolyte, so installing a voltmeter so you can monitor
that you don't charge above the design limits (12 volt uses
14.5-14.75 as top of the green) and 24 volt uses 26-28 volts
as top, will do a lot to allowing the monitoring of the
battery and charging system.

BTW, aircraft mechanics have to get into all kinds of small
and cramped spaces on a daily basis. Aircraft designers
just assume that their girl friends are dating mechanics and
are trying to get even.



--
James H. Macklin
ATP,CFI,A&P

--
The people think the Constitution protects their rights;
But government sees it as an obstacle to be overcome.
some support
http://www.usdoj.gov/olc/secondamendment2.htm
See http://www.fija.org/ more about your rights and duties.


> wrote in message
...
|I am a new airplane owner (since May). My mechanic replaced
my battery
| last June. No choices, I figured he bought the one it
needed.
|
| Just serviced it (added water). It's in a REALLY awkward
spot to get at
| and see inside the cells -- on the floor under the
instrument panel of a
| plane with no doors (climb in over the sides). I
understand if the water
| level is not just right, it will boil over and then needs
to be cleaned
| with baking soda and water. I've heard since that the
battery should be
| removed when servicing. Today I heard you can buy a dry
battery, that
| there is controversy about which lasts longer, but that
maybe since mine
| is so difficult to access, the dry type would be a better
choice.
|
| Thoughts/Opinions?

[Ash Wyllie]

Xmnushal8y opined

>"150flivver" > wrote:
>> My thought is this should be posted under "owning" not piloting.

>Sorry if it's a problem here. I just figured if we can discuss hotels
>and restaurants, airplane batteries shouldn't bother anyone.

Clearly, discussing airplane batteries is out in this news group.

How ever, it is perfectly permissible to talk about batteries for hotel
emergency lighting.

-ash
Cthulhu in 2005!
Why wait for nature?

[Stubby]

Peter Duniho wrote:
> > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>Sorry if it's a problem here. I just figured if we can discuss hotels
>>and restaurants, airplane batteries shouldn't bother anyone.
>
>
> I'll echo the recommendation for posting in r.a.owning. Not because there's
> a problem posting your post here, but because you are likely to get better
> answers there.
>
Ditto. The reason we have so many groups is that it lets us choose
what what we do NOT want to read. The alternative is for everybody to
post in one giant group where everbody sees everything.

Maybe we should create rec.aviation.hotel-talk .

[[email protected]]

Stubby > wrote:
> The reason we have so many groups is that it lets us choose
> what what we do NOT want to read. The alternative is for everybody to
> post in one giant group where everbody sees everything.

I'm aware of that. But look at the list of topics on this group. At
least mine was about airplanes.

To those who responded with info, thank you. Much appreciated.

[Jay Honeck]

>> The down side is that they need replacement every two or three years as
>> compared to a regular lead acid battery.
>
> Hell, that sounds *exactly* like a regular lead acid battery...

We've replaced two lead-acid batteries. Both were 7 years old.

We've got our first RG battery on board now. We'll see how long it lasts...
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[George Patterson]

Grumman-581 wrote:
> "Viperdoc" wrote in message
> ...
>
>>The down side is that they need replacement every two or three years as
>>compared to a regular lead acid battery.
>
> Hell, that sounds *exactly* like a regular lead acid battery...

Not mine. The Gill batteries in my C-150 lasted about 6 years.

George Patterson
Coffee is only a way of stealing time that should by rights belong to
your slightly older self.

[George Patterson]

wrote:

> Sorry if it's a problem here.

It's not a problem; it's just that you might get more and better responses there.

George Patterson
Coffee is only a way of stealing time that should by rights belong to
your slightly older self.

[George Patterson]

wrote:

> Thoughts/Opinions?

As others have said, the recombinant gas models are sealed units. That's the
only type my Maule was certified to use -- the manufacturer didn't want to run
the risk of having acid spill onto the fabric. I used to get about 4 years
service from mine. In addition to having shorter lives than regular lead-acid
batteries, the RG batteries are very sensitive to being left in a partially
discharged state. Run the battery down and leave it like that for two weeks, and
you'll probably have to replace it.

You will also have to check to see if there's an RG series battery certified for
your aircraft. There probably is, but check the Gill website.

George Patterson
Coffee is only a way of stealing time that should by rights belong to
your slightly older self.

[Morgans]

"George Patterson" > wrote

> Not mine. The Gill batteries in my C-150 lasted about 6 years.

What is your secret for success? Do you have it inside,heated, trickle
charge it, fly often?
--
Jim in NC

[George Patterson]

Morgans wrote:
>
> "George Patterson" > wrote
>
>> Not mine. The Gill batteries in my C-150 lasted about 6 years.
>
> What is your secret for success? Do you have it inside,heated, trickle
> charge it, fly often?

I kept it tied down in New Jersey, charged the battery once a year during the
annual, and flew 70-100 hours a year. Flying was pretty regularly spaced out
over the year except for those periods when unexpected maintenance was
necessary. I flew few really long flights, though I did make Sun'n Fun once.

Prior to my buying the plane, it was kept tied down in West Virginia. It flew
about 4 hours in the year before I bought it. I had to replace the battery a few
years after I bought the plane in 1989. According to the logs and the tags on
the battery, it was a little over 6 years old. I sold the plane in 1996. The new
owner is also in New Jersey and kept it tied down. As of 1998, the battery was
still going strong, but I haven't spoken with the man since then. The plane is
still registered to the guy who bought it from me.

George Patterson
Coffee is only a way of stealing time that should by rights belong to
your slightly older self.

[[email protected]]

George Patterson > wrote:
> RG batteries are very sensitive to being left in a partially
> discharged state.

I plug in the trickle-charger every time I come back from a flight and
leave it on until I go again (lead-acid battery). Mechanic concurs that
this is a good idea. I usually fly once or twice/week. Sounds like this
would be a good thing for an RG battery as well?

[nrp]

I've gotten at least 9 years each on the last three Gill batteries on
my 172M. I make sure the plates never get exposed - even filling with
tap water or from a nearby mud puddle. Rarely a trickle charger unless
it has been or going to sit for a couple of months. I always get
starts in one or two revolutions. Cessna has a good electrical system
in my book.

[[email protected]]

"Ash Wyllie" > wrote:
> Clearly, discussing airplane batteries is out in this news group.
>
> How ever, it is perfectly permissible to talk about batteries for hotel
> emergency lighting.

I didn't mean to pick on Jay, I have no objections to reading his
hotel/restaurant topics.

But his aren't the only non *piloting* topics here -- we have a topic
about two women perpetrating a scam (yeah, that's really about piloting
.... NOT!), guns, and many other non-piloting topics. I didn't see anyone
tell them to post that stuff elsewhere, so yeah, I was just a little
miffed to be told that *my* topic about airplane batteries didn't really
belong here! Obviously many <rec.aviation.piloting> participants are
airplane owners that no doubt have info about this.

[Jim Macklin]

Distilled water is cheap and can even be drunk in an
emergency. Using tap water in a battery will introduce
whatever minerals are in the local water and that will
damage the chemical reaction in the cells.

A solidly mounted battery, isolated from heavy vibration,
not over charged and always kept a "full charge" will last a
long time. Having a battery adequate for the starter loads
and maintaining the electrical system so that excessive load
doesn't over-heat the plates and cause them to warp is
important.

If you fly day/VFR, a good battery is a luxury that lets you
get started. IFR and night makes the battery essential.
Even replacing the battery every year or two is cheaper than
a funeral.
--
James H. Macklin
ATP,CFI,A&P

--
The people think the Constitution protects their rights;
But government sees it as an obstacle to be overcome.
some support
http://www.usdoj.gov/olc/secondamendment2.htm
See http://www.fija.org/ more about your rights and duties.


"nrp" > wrote in message
oups.com...
| I've gotten at least 9 years each on the last three Gill
batteries on
| my 172M. I make sure the plates never get exposed - even
filling with
| tap water or from a nearby mud puddle. Rarely a trickle
charger unless
| it has been or going to sit for a couple of months. I
always get
| starts in one or two revolutions. Cessna has a good
electrical system
| in my book.
|

[Montblack]

("150flivver" wrote)
> My thought is this should be posted under "owning" not piloting.


IMHO, it's a 50/50 call - it's of interest to pilots, so it's fine here.
However, yes, r.a.owning is another option.

Hey, crosspost to both. <g>


Montblack

[nrp]

>IFR and night makes the battery essential.
Even replacing the battery every year or two is cheaper than
a funeral. <

I agree - although I've always been able to see an impending failure
(except when I've left the master on......)

[nrp]

>IFR and night makes the battery essential.

Even replacing the battery every year or two is cheaper than
a funeral. <

I agree - although so far I've always been able to see an impending
failure thru charging current anomalies except when I've left the
master on......

On the other hand there just might be an infant mortality among 15 - 30
batteries that would have been needed to cover the 30 years I've had
this 172M. I'm glad I have a 12 V system though.

[Newps]

wrote:
> George Patterson > wrote:
>
>>RG batteries are very sensitive to being left in a partially
>>discharged state.
>
>
> I plug in the trickle-charger every time I come back from a flight and
> leave it on until I go again (lead-acid battery). Mechanic concurs that
> this is a good idea. I usually fly once or twice/week. Sounds like this
> would be a good thing for an RG battery as well?

I can't imagine why this would be a good idea for a plane flown at least
once a week regardless of what type of battery you use. I use a regular
lead acid battery in my Bonanza and used the same in my 182 when I had
that. No reason a battery won't last 5-6 under these conditions.

[Newps]

Jim Macklin wrote:

> Distilled water is cheap and can even be drunk in an
> emergency.

Well sure, that's essentially what bottled water is anyways.

[Peter Duniho]

"Newps" > wrote in message
...
> Well sure, that's essentially what bottled water is anyways.

Distilled is hardly the same as filtered (which is actually what bottled
water typically is).

[Jim Macklin]

Bottled water is filtered tap water and often is enhanced
with "minerals for taste" or spring water which also has
minerals.

Distilled water has been BOILED and the steam condensed, it
is as pure as chemically possible. Less than a dollar a
gallon. A gallon will keep the battery in your car and
plane filled for about 25 years. Use a basting syringe to
add distilled water, an ounce at a time, six cells. If the
electrolyte level is low in all cells that means that it is
working evenly, but if just one or two cells are low, there
is likely to be a problem developing.

FAR preventative maintenance does allow the pilot to check
electrolyte levels and add water, also use a hydrometer to
check specific gravity to see that the battery is fully
charging. That combined with a voltage check to be sure
that the system is not charging at too high a voltage is the
most important things a pilot/owner can do to get maximum
life.

But all batteries wear out because lead flakes off the
plates and collects in the bottom of a standard lead/acid
battery [that's why the plates do not extend all the way to
the bottom of the case, the space is there to collect lead
sludge. When the sludge touches the plates they short out
and the cell is dead.]


--
James H. Macklin
ATP,CFI,A&P

--
The people think the Constitution protects their rights;
But government sees it as an obstacle to be overcome.
some support
http://www.usdoj.gov/olc/secondamendment2.htm
See http://www.fija.org/ more about your rights and duties.


"Newps" > wrote in message
...
|
|
| Jim Macklin wrote:
|
| > Distilled water is cheap and can even be drunk in an
| > emergency.
|
| Well sure, that's essentially what bottled water is
anyways.

[Robert M. Gary]

If you are servicing the battery more than once per year there may be
something wrong. I replace my battery every 2-3 years. The only
othertime the battery box is opened is during annual.

-Robert

[Paul kgyy]

I've used a RG battery for 6 years and consider them a good solution to
a potentially nasty problem (leakage). I think the life is comparable
to a wet battery, and would certainly use one in your situation. The
RGs are a little more sensitive to overcharging, so have your mechanic
check the charging voltage when installing the new battery.

[.Blueskies.]

"Jim Macklin" > wrote in message news:lSaBf.69242$QW2.68282@dukeread08...
> Bottled water is filtered tap water and often is enhanced
> with "minerals for taste" or spring water which also has
> minerals.
>
> Distilled water has been BOILED and the steam condensed, it
> is as pure as chemically possible. Less than a dollar a
> gallon. A gallon will keep the battery in your car and
> plane filled for about 25 years. Use a basting syringe to
> add distilled water, an ounce at a time, six cells. If the
> electrolyte level is low in all cells that means that it is
> working evenly, but if just one or two cells are low, there
> is likely to be a problem developing.
>
>

You can also get distilled water from the de-humidifier....

[nrp]

I didn't mean to imply that tap or even mud puddle water is good for a
lead acid battery. It's just that exposed plates are really bad &
should be covered ASAP. Dehumidifier water is good.

[Montblack]

("Jim Macklin" wrote)
> But all batteries wear out because lead flakes off the plates and collects
> in the bottom of a standard lead/acid battery [that's why the plates do
> not extend all the way to the bottom of the case, the space is there to
> collect lead sludge. When the sludge touches the plates they short out
> and the cell is dead.]


Would sucking out the sludge/flakes, once in a while, extend the life of the
battery? Drain (filter) back any acid/water into the cells.

Has anyone tried this?


Montblack

[Jim Macklin]

You can get it from the outside of a glass of ice water too,
but my bladder can't handle that much ice water. It is just
easier to buy a gallon jug at the grocery store for less
than a dollar.


".Blueskies." > wrote in
message
et...
|
| "Jim Macklin" > wrote
in message news:lSaBf.69242$QW2.68282@dukeread08...
| > Bottled water is filtered tap water and often is
enhanced
| > with "minerals for taste" or spring water which also has
| > minerals.
| >
| > Distilled water has been BOILED and the steam condensed,
it
| > is as pure as chemically possible. Less than a dollar a
| > gallon. A gallon will keep the battery in your car and
| > plane filled for about 25 years. Use a basting syringe
to
| > add distilled water, an ounce at a time, six cells. If
the
| > electrolyte level is low in all cells that means that it
is
| > working evenly, but if just one or two cells are low,
there
| > is likely to be a problem developing.
| >
| >
|
| You can also get distilled water from the
de-humidifier....
|
|

[Jim Macklin]

True, the plates must be kept submerged. Aircraft batteries
use less electrolyte and have less above the plates than a
car battery.


--
James H. Macklin
ATP,CFI,A&P

--
The people think the Constitution protects their rights;
But government sees it as an obstacle to be overcome.
some support
http://www.usdoj.gov/olc/secondamendment2.htm
See http://www.fija.org/ more about your rights and duties.


"nrp" > wrote in message
oups.com...
|I didn't mean to imply that tap or even mud puddle water is
good for a
| lead acid battery. It's just that exposed plates are
really bad &
| should be covered ASAP. Dehumidifier water is good.
|

[Jim Macklin]

There really isn't space to clean the sludge and if you
invert the case, you just dump the sludge into the plates.
I don't know of any batteries with a drain/cleanout plug on
the bottom. Battery recyclers rebuild batteries by cutting
the top open and washing the plates and reinstalling them
into clean cases. But the plates are worn and the life of
the battery would be shortened. I don't think any aircraft
batteries are rebuilt this way, usually the metals are
melted down and new batteries manufactured. NiCad batteries
use individual cells and those cells can be swapped into a
case and the cells are remanufactured under careful
controls. Of course NiCad batteries used in KingAirs and
jets cost as much as a small car.


--
James H. Macklin
ATP,CFI,A&P

--
The people think the Constitution protects their rights;
But government sees it as an obstacle to be overcome.
some support
http://www.usdoj.gov/olc/secondamendment2.htm
See http://www.fija.org/ more about your rights and duties.


"Montblack" > wrote in
message ...
| ("Jim Macklin" wrote)
| > But all batteries wear out because lead flakes off the
plates and collects
| > in the bottom of a standard lead/acid battery [that's
why the plates do
| > not extend all the way to the bottom of the case, the
space is there to
| > collect lead sludge. When the sludge touches the plates
they short out
| > and the cell is dead.]
|
|
| Would sucking out the sludge/flakes, once in a while,
extend the life of the
| battery? Drain (filter) back any acid/water into the
cells.
|
| Has anyone tried this?
|
|
| Montblack
|

[RST Engineering]

Before I wrote my recombinant gas (sealed) battery article for Kitplanes, I
called and had quite a talk with their chief engineer. It seems that a RG
battery likes to be discharged to a particular level (about 12.8 volts as I
recall) then recharged to 13.4, then discharged, then recharged...

This, as I was told, gets the maximum life out of the RG batteries. Simply
putting them on trickle charge is what kills them.

Jim

[Jose]

> But all batteries wear out because lead flakes off the
> plates and collects in the bottom of a standard lead/acid
> battery [that's why the plates do not extend all the way to
> the bottom of the case, the space is there to collect lead
> sludge. When the sludge touches the plates they short out
> and the cell is dead.]

Would it make sense to periodically drain the sludge and refill with
fresh water?

Jose
--
Money: what you need when you run out of brains.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[[email protected]]

On Mon, 23 Jan 2006 16:23:54 -0800, "RST Engineering"
> wrote:

>Before I wrote my recombinant gas (sealed) battery article for Kitplanes, I
>called and had quite a talk with their chief engineer. It seems that a RG
>battery likes to be discharged to a particular level (about 12.8 volts as I
>recall) then recharged to 13.4, then discharged, then recharged...
>
>This, as I was told, gets the maximum life out of the RG batteries. Simply
>putting them on trickle charge is what kills them.

Yup. If they flunk a cap check, you charge them and hit 'em again.

Discharging them fully (or over-charging) is another story though...

TC

[[email protected]]

Thanks again, everyone, for the info/discussion.

My mechanic came out this afternoon and took the battery and battery box
out of the airplane. There was some liquid on top of the battery and
inside the box, and a fair amount had drained out of the drain tube.

He removed the battery from the box, checked the levels and wiped it
off, washed the battery box with baking soda and water, dried it, and
took it with him to repaint the bottom inside. He also took the battery
to charge it on the bench and check it tomorrow. He said when you remove
water from an overfilled cell, you are also removing acid and changing
that balance which can also cause the overheating and boiling over.

He concurred with the person here that said the proper way to service
the battery is to remove it from the airplane, especially if it is in
the cockpit (like mine) vs. in the engine compartment. He also agreed
with the person that suggested that since my battery is in such an
inaccessible spot and I'm not a mechanic, a sealed battery would be a
good choice.

Thanks again for the discussion, everyone. Personally, I don't care if I
have to replace it more frequently, I'd rather have the sealed variety
that doesn't involve all this!

I am, however, still curious about the trickle charger. Is it
advantageous to have this plugged in between flights if you fly at least
once/week or is it actually detrimental to the life of the battery?

[Jim Macklin]

Nope, the acid in the electrolyte has to be replaced if you
drain. The water is what breaks down during the
charge/discharge cycle, so you only add water to a working
battery.

The act of draining the sludge would move the sludge into
the spaces between the plates, destroying the battery. Just
buy a new one and re-cycle the old one, they will melt it
down and make bullets, wheel weights and more batteries.


--
James H. Macklin
ATP,CFI,A&P

--
The people think the Constitution protects their rights;
But government sees it as an obstacle to be overcome.
some support
http://www.usdoj.gov/olc/secondamendment2.htm
See http://www.fija.org/ more about your rights and duties.


"Jose" > wrote in message
m...
|> But all batteries wear out because lead flakes off the
| > plates and collects in the bottom of a standard
lead/acid
| > battery [that's why the plates do not extend all the way
to
| > the bottom of the case, the space is there to collect
lead
| > sludge. When the sludge touches the plates they short
out
| > and the cell is dead.]
|
| Would it make sense to periodically drain the sludge and
refill with
| fresh water?
|
| Jose
| --
| Money: what you need when you run out of brains.
| for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Morgans]

"Jim Macklin" > wrote

> Of course NiCad batteries used in KingAirs and
> jets cost as much as a small car.

Anyone ever seen a cutaway or the real insides of one of those big Nicads
used in Jets? I sure would like to see how they are made.
--
Jim in NC

[Jim Macklin]

Each cell is a metal case with terminals. They are slide
into the larger case and connected with bus bars to complete
the circuit.

http://www.saftbatteries.com/020-MS_Aviation/20-30-30_saft_advantage.asp

http://www.saftbatteries.com/020-MS_Aviation/20-40-20_download.asp?content=4&sSegment=Aviation&sSegmentLien=10%2D10%2D10%5FAviation%2Easp&sSecteurLien=20%2D10%2D10%5Faircraft%2Easp&Secteur=Aircraft

--
James H. Macklin
ATP,CFI,A&P

--
The people think the Constitution protects their rights;
But government sees it as an obstacle to be overcome.
some support
http://www.usdoj.gov/olc/secondamendment2.htm
See http://www.fija.org/ more about your rights and duties.


"Morgans" > wrote in message
...
|
| "Jim Macklin" > wrote
|
| > Of course NiCad batteries used in KingAirs and
| > jets cost as much as a small car.
|
| Anyone ever seen a cutaway or the real insides of one of
those big Nicads
| used in Jets? I sure would like to see how they are made.
| --
| Jim in NC
|
|

[Big John]

Blueskies

You can also get from your wife if she uses it for her steam iron
(like she should) :o)

Been doing that for years.

Big John
`````````````````````````````````````````````````` ```````

On Mon, 23 Jan 2006 22:03:02 GMT, ".Blueskies."
> wrote:

>
>"Jim Macklin" > wrote in message news:lSaBf.69242$QW2.68282@dukeread08...
>> Bottled water is filtered tap water and often is enhanced
>> with "minerals for taste" or spring water which also has
>> minerals.
>>
>> Distilled water has been BOILED and the steam condensed, it
>> is as pure as chemically possible. Less than a dollar a
>> gallon. A gallon will keep the battery in your car and
>> plane filled for about 25 years. Use a basting syringe to
>> add distilled water, an ounce at a time, six cells. If the
>> electrolyte level is low in all cells that means that it is
>> working evenly, but if just one or two cells are low, there
>> is likely to be a problem developing.
>>
>>
>
>You can also get distilled water from the de-humidifier....
>

[Big John]

If you go to the battery room at a place that sells a lot of batteries
you will see that they have them on a trickle charge. Last I remember
seeing was at a Sears shop.

I keep my electric handicap scooter on a trickle after I charge after
use.

If you have a lead acid, then do the math and get the correct trickle
charger and won't hurt the battery and it will be 'hot' when you go to
start.

Big John
``````````````````````````````````

On Mon, 23 Jan 2006 18:14:59 -0700, wrote:

>Thanks again, everyone, for the info/discussion.
>
>My mechanic came out this afternoon and took the battery and battery box
>out of the airplane. There was some liquid on top of the battery and
>inside the box, and a fair amount had drained out of the drain tube.
>
>He removed the battery from the box, checked the levels and wiped it
>off, washed the battery box with baking soda and water, dried it, and
>took it with him to repaint the bottom inside. He also took the battery
>to charge it on the bench and check it tomorrow. He said when you remove
>water from an overfilled cell, you are also removing acid and changing
>that balance which can also cause the overheating and boiling over.
>
>He concurred with the person here that said the proper way to service
>the battery is to remove it from the airplane, especially if it is in
>the cockpit (like mine) vs. in the engine compartment. He also agreed
>with the person that suggested that since my battery is in such an
>inaccessible spot and I'm not a mechanic, a sealed battery would be a
>good choice.
>
>Thanks again for the discussion, everyone. Personally, I don't care if I
>have to replace it more frequently, I'd rather have the sealed variety
>that doesn't involve all this!
>
>I am, however, still curious about the trickle charger. Is it
>advantageous to have this plugged in between flights if you fly at least
>once/week or is it actually detrimental to the life of the battery?

[Morgans]

> wrote

> I am, however, still curious about the trickle charger. Is it
> advantageous to have this plugged in between flights if you fly at least
> once/week or is it actually detrimental to the life of the battery?

Depends on the type of battery. Recombinant, Jim has said hates that. Lead
acid would rather be full than sit around discharged. Gel cells (lead) hate
to sit around fully or partially discharged.

The key to any trickle charger is the cut off voltage, too. If one is set
too high, then it is always bad. A correct cut off, and IMHO, you can't
hurt lead acid.

Real world, is probably flying it once a week or even twice will not require
anything, if your charging system is working correctly.
--
Jim in NC

[Newps]

Peter Duniho wrote:
> "Newps" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>Well sure, that's essentially what bottled water is anyways.
>
>
> Distilled is hardly the same as filtered (which is actually what bottled
> water typically is).

Most bottled water is dead water. You couldn't find a mineral in there
to save your life.

[Jim Macklin]

It is your battery, use what ever water you want. But most
bottled water has minerals added so there is a flavor, some
waters now have flavors.

Only distilled water is pure, deionized water is OK too, but
that is harder to find on the store shelves.


--
James H. Macklin
ATP,CFI,A&P

--
The people think the Constitution protects their rights;
But government sees it as an obstacle to be overcome.
some support
http://www.usdoj.gov/olc/secondamendment2.htm
See http://www.fija.org/ more about your rights and duties.


"Newps" > wrote in message
. ..
|
|
| Peter Duniho wrote:
| > "Newps" > wrote in message
| > ...
| >
| >>Well sure, that's essentially what bottled water is
anyways.
| >
| >
| > Distilled is hardly the same as filtered (which is
actually what bottled
| > water typically is).
|
| Most bottled water is dead water. You couldn't find a
mineral in there
| to save your life.

[Peter Duniho]

"Newps" > wrote in message
. ..
> Most bottled water is dead water. You couldn't find a mineral in there to
> save your life.

So? Even if more than half the bottled waters out there have had every
molecule of minerals filtered out (and I doubt that's true), that doesn't
make the water distilled.

[[email protected]]

Just an update: mechanic put the charger on the battery this a.m. He
said after an hour, it was bubbling all over the place. It is toast.
Looking for the comparable RG replacement right now. Oh well, learned a
lot, anyway. Thanks to all here for responding.

[Jim Macklin]

Aircraft batteries should be charged on a constant amperage
of about 2 amps and the voltage should be less than 14.5
volts. Standard automotive chargers will fry an aircraft
battery.


--
James H. Macklin
ATP,CFI,A&P

--
The people think the Constitution protects their rights;
But government sees it as an obstacle to be overcome.
some support
http://www.usdoj.gov/olc/secondamendment2.htm
See http://www.fija.org/ more about your rights and duties.


> wrote in message
...
| Just an update: mechanic put the charger on the battery
this a.m. He
| said after an hour, it was bubbling all over the place. It
is toast.
| Looking for the comparable RG replacement right now. Oh
well, learned a
| lot, anyway. Thanks to all here for responding.

[.Blueskies.]

"Big John" > wrote in message ...
>
> Blueskies
>
> You can also get from your wife if she uses it for her steam iron
> (like she should) :o)
>
> Been doing that for years.
>
> Big John
> `````````````````````````````````````````````````` ```````
>

Actually, I keep my wife's bottle of distilled full from the de-humidifier... ;-)

Also use it for the iridite mix....

[Matt Whiting]

Jim Macklin wrote:
> Aircraft batteries should be charged on a constant amperage
> of about 2 amps and the voltage should be less than 14.5
> volts. Standard automotive chargers will fry an aircraft
> battery.
>
>

Why? How is a 6 cell lead-acid aircraft battery different from an
automobile battery, other than having less capacity obviously.


Matt

[Jim Macklin]

Because they are different. The automotive charger is high
amperage and the plates on the aircraft battery will be
distorted by the high current. A trickle charger on "high"
is about a maximum charge rate for an aircraft battery. But
you are free to use any charger you want.


--
James H. Macklin
ATP,CFI,A&P

--
The people think the Constitution protects their rights;
But government sees it as an obstacle to be overcome.
some support
http://www.usdoj.gov/olc/secondamendment2.htm
See http://www.fija.org/ more about your rights and duties.


"Matt Whiting" > wrote in message
...
| Jim Macklin wrote:
| > Aircraft batteries should be charged on a constant
amperage
| > of about 2 amps and the voltage should be less than 14.5
| > volts. Standard automotive chargers will fry an
aircraft
| > battery.
| >
| >
|
| Why? How is a 6 cell lead-acid aircraft battery different
from an
| automobile battery, other than having less capacity
obviously.
|
|
| Matt

[Morgans]

"Jim Macklin" > wrote in message
news:BnzBf.69434$QW2.59809@dukeread08...
> Aircraft batteries should be charged on a constant amperage
> of about 2 amps and the voltage should be less than 14.5
> volts. Standard automotive chargers will fry an aircraft
> battery.

An amperage selectable one should not. A popular charger configuration out
there, is something like 2 - 10 - 50 amp chargerm and that should only be
putting out about 14.4 volts.
--
Jim in NC

[Newps]

Jim Macklin wrote:

> Because they are different. The automotive charger is high
> amperage

It might be, depends on the charger. My automotive charger is a 50 amp
car starter and a 20 amp charger. The charger will vary as the battery
gets charged. As the battery gets topped off the current drops to an
amp or so.


and the plates on the aircraft battery will be
> distorted by the high current.

Funny, considering after starting the plane the alternator gives the
battery about 30 amps and does the same thing my automotive battery
charger does in that it reduces the amps as the battery charges,
eventually getting down to an amp or two after flying more than an hour.

[Matt Whiting]

Jim Macklin wrote:
> Because they are different. The automotive charger is high
> amperage and the plates on the aircraft battery will be
> distorted by the high current. A trickle charger on "high"
> is about a maximum charge rate for an aircraft battery. But
> you are free to use any charger you want.

My auto charger has a setting for 2A, 10A and 50A boost. Why won't the
2A auto charger work?

Matt

[Jim Macklin]

If it is regulated and really 2 Amps, it will, but most
cheapy auto chargers are not well regulated and will over
charge aircraft batteries.

If I recall, the maximum recommended charge rate is 10% of
the amp/hour rating, so a "dead" battery will take 10 hours
to charge.


--
James H. Macklin
ATP,CFI,A&P

--
The people think the Constitution protects their rights;
But government sees it as an obstacle to be overcome.
some support
http://www.usdoj.gov/olc/secondamendment2.htm
See http://www.fija.org/ more about your rights and duties.


"Matt Whiting" > wrote in message
...
| Jim Macklin wrote:
| > Because they are different. The automotive charger is
high
| > amperage and the plates on the aircraft battery will be
| > distorted by the high current. A trickle charger on
"high"
| > is about a maximum charge rate for an aircraft battery.
But
| > you are free to use any charger you want.
|
| My auto charger has a setting for 2A, 10A and 50A boost.
Why won't the
| 2A auto charger work?
|
| Matt

[nrp]

Airplanes must have their own physics section.

[[email protected]]

On Tue, 24 Jan 2006 21:04:34 -0700, Newps > wrote:

>
>
>Jim Macklin wrote:
>
>> Because they are different. The automotive charger is high
>> amperage
>
>It might be, depends on the charger. My automotive charger is a 50 amp
>car starter and a 20 amp charger. The charger will vary as the battery
>gets charged. As the battery gets topped off the current drops to an
>amp or so.

snip

hook your charger up to your automotive battery and check the final
voltage after it has charged overnight.

if it is below 14.5 volts, it is likely not to harm your aircraft
battery if used to charge at a low rate. if it is above 14.5 volts,
depending on how long it is left "charging", it might.

it really doesn't matter to me, useta sell a lot of batteries to
people that used the monsta-charger set @ 50 amps to charge their
flooded-cell aircraft batteries. pull the electrolyte out and it looks
like dirty weak tea with black flecks on it. btw if your plane's
voltage regulator is set much above 14.5 volts, the battery will look
the same way...

TC

[Newps]

Jim Macklin wrote:

>
> If I recall, the maximum recommended charge rate is 10% of
> the amp/hour rating, so a "dead" battery will take 10 hours
> to charge.

That is true for any battery. Aircraft batteries are no different in
construction than car batteries.

[Jim Macklin]

Actually, aircraft batteries are constructed differently,
mostly lighter weight components, small volume, less
electrolyte, etc.


--
James H. Macklin
ATP,CFI,A&P

--
The people think the Constitution protects their rights;
But government sees it as an obstacle to be overcome.
some support
http://www.usdoj.gov/olc/secondamendment2.htm
See http://www.fija.org/ more about your rights and duties.


"Newps" > wrote in message
...
|
|
| Jim Macklin wrote:
|
| >
| > If I recall, the maximum recommended charge rate is 10%
of
| > the amp/hour rating, so a "dead" battery will take 10
hours
| > to charge.
|
| That is true for any battery. Aircraft batteries are no
different in
| construction than car batteries.
|

[George Patterson]

wrote:

> btw if your plane's
> voltage regulator is set much above 14.5 volts, the battery will look
> the same way...

Just curious. Do the solid-state regulators have adjustments? Is it possible for
one to put out too much voltage?

George Patterson
Coffee is only a way of stealing time that should by rights belong to
your slightly older self.

[Ron Lee]

George Patterson > wrote:

wrote:
>
>> btw if your plane's
>> voltage regulator is set much above 14.5 volts, the battery will look
>> the same way...
>
>Just curious. Do the solid-state regulators have adjustments? Is it possible for
>one to put out too much voltage?

Seems like just under 14V may be better from airport talk.

Ron Lee

[[email protected]]

Ron Lee wrote:
> George Patterson > wrote:
>
> wrote:
> >
> >> btw if your plane's
> >> voltage regulator is set much above 14.5 volts, the battery will look
> >> the same way...
> >
> >Just curious. Do the solid-state regulators have adjustments? Is it possible for
> >one to put out too much voltage?
>
> Seems like just under 14V may be better from airport talk.
>
> Ron Lee

Depends how often you fly/how long you spend in the air. With frequent
use and longer legs, the voltage should be set a little lower.

The battery manufacturers useta publish charts that recommended bus
voltage based on battery operating temperature. The higher the battery
temp, the lower the voltage.

Problem is, you are "supposed" to set them according to the aircraft
manufacturer's specs.

TC

[George Patterson]

wrote:

> Problem is, you are "supposed" to set them according to the aircraft
> manufacturer's specs.

I take it this means that the solid state regulators *can* be adjusted?

George Patterson
Coffee is only a way of stealing time that should by rights belong to
your slightly older self.

[[email protected]]

On Fri, 27 Jan 2006 03:35:09 GMT, George Patterson
> wrote:


>I take it this means that the solid state regulators *can* be adjusted?

depends on the unit. old lamar (sp?) regulators had an adjustment
screw. I don't think the newer zeftronics units do.

TC

[150flivver]

Trickle charger or float charger--are they the same? I understood a
trickle charger to supply a low amperage charge continuously while a
float charger will stop charging once the battery is fully charged and
then turn itself on again when the voltage drops below a certain
amount. I've got my airplane battery hooked up to a float charger
between flights. I understand a trickle charger will overcharge a
battery if left on continuously.

Has anyone any experience with the battery desulfator (or desulphator)
units that are supposed to break up the crystals that form on the lead
plates that eventually cause the battery to fail?

[Newps]

150flivver wrote:

> Trickle charger or float charger--are they the same? I understood a
> trickle charger to supply a low amperage charge continuously while a
> float charger will stop charging once the battery is fully charged and
> then turn itself on again when the voltage drops below a certain
> amount. I've got my airplane battery hooked up to a float charger
> between flights. I understand a trickle charger will overcharge a
> battery if left on continuously.

You can give any battery 1-2 amps constantly and it will never hurt it.

[nrp]

Jim Weir published this a few years ago. I just finished (cobbled
together) one & am trying it out. Note that it has to be on the
battery for weeks & that the average current is like a trickle charger.
I had a couple of the output IGBTs fail though I'm pushing the supply
voltage. Go here for details:

http://www.rst-engr.com/kitplanes/KP0204/KP0204.htm

[George Patterson]

nrp wrote:
> Jim Weir published this a few years ago. I just finished (cobbled
> together) one & am trying it out. Note that it has to be on the
> battery for weeks & that the average current is like a trickle charger.

So. What would you have to change to use this on a 6-volt car battery?

George Patterson
Coffee is only a way of stealing time that should by rights belong to
your slightly older self.

[nrp]

Nothing. It isn't sensitive to battery voltage, as it is a 50 V power
supply that connects for only about 10 microseconds, 70 times per
second. It hits the battery pretty hard as the current spike is maybe
10 Amps & the sparks fly a little when it is connected up. The average
current however is only a few milliamps. Don't connect or disconnect
it under load. I wiped out a couple of the hexfets (they're not IGBTs)
getting it going. It's an interesting project. I wish Jim W had
pursued it more & offered it as a kit.

Do you have a motorcycle battery to keep up?

[Michael Ware]

I hate when that happens.

"nrp" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> I wiped out a couple of the hexfets (they're not IGBTs)
> getting it going.

[RST Engineering]

Which is why I never put it out as a kit ... "I want warranty replacements;
these lousy fets you sent me in the kit are no damned good."


"Michael Ware" > wrote in message
. ..
>I hate when that happens.
>
> "nrp" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
>> I wiped out a couple of the hexfets (they're not IGBTs)
>> getting it going.
>
>

[nrp]

You could have just sold the circuit board. Or could the lawyers
figure out a way to nail you on those too?

[Morgans]

OK, I've got a question for all of you.

I have always heard that if you have a battery out of the (whatever) vehicle
for the winter, or while it is the shop, if you sit the battery on a
concrete floor, that will kill the battery, possibly for good.

If this is true, why?
--
Jim in NC

[Jon Woellhaf]

I believe it's false.

"Morgans" > wrote in message
...
> OK, I've got a question for all of you.
>
> I have always heard that if you have a battery out of the (whatever)
> vehicle for the winter, or while it is the shop, if you sit the battery on
> a concrete floor, that will kill the battery, possibly for good.
>
> If this is true, why?
> --
> Jim in NC

[JJS]

"Morgans" > wrote in message ...
> OK, I've got a question for all of you.
>
> I have always heard that if you have a battery out of the (whatever) vehicle for the winter, or while it is the
> shop, if you sit the battery on a concrete floor, that will kill the battery, possibly for good.
>
> If this is true, why?
> --
> Jim in NC

Try this link:

http://www.ibsa.com/www_2001/content/about_us/current/december_1999/1199_techtalk.htm



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[[email protected]]

Morgans" > wrote:
> > I have always heard that if you have a battery out of the (whatever)
> > vehicle for the winter, or while it is the shop, if you sit the battery on
> > a concrete floor, that will kill the battery, possibly for good.
> >
> > If this is true, why?

on Woellhaf > wrote:
> I believe it's false.

My mechanic said it is absolutely true, and said to always put a piece
of wood or thick cardboard down first if you have to set it down on a
concrete floor for any length of time.