421C down in Washington State

[Bob Gardner]

Non-instrument-rated pilot and his 421C are down in the vicinity of Carson,
WA. Last reported at 11000 (?). The mind boggles. Weather is not too swift
in the Seattle area...dunno the condx down there.

--
Bob Gardner

Send a Singing Valentine to a loved one.
Go to www.singingvalentine.com for details.

[Jim Burns]

KCZK 261745Z 00000KT 1/2SM -RA FG SCT028 OVC065 06/04 RMK SLP163 NOSPECI CLD
HGT VISUALLY ESTMD

a rather old METAR

NOAA page shows the same
http://www.crh.noaa.gov/data/obhistory/KCZK.html


Jim


"Bob Gardner" > wrote in message
. ..
> Non-instrument-rated pilot and his 421C are down in the vicinity of
Carson,
> WA. Last reported at 11000 (?). The mind boggles. Weather is not too swift
> in the Seattle area...dunno the condx down there.
>
> --
> Bob Gardner
>
> Send a Singing Valentine to a loved one.
> Go to www.singingvalentine.com for details.
>
>

[Flyingmonk]

Dang nab it! Another one down? He's OK?

The Monk

[Bela P. Havasreti]

On Thu, 26 Jan 2006 12:19:36 -0800, "Bob Gardner" >
wrote:

The aircraft went missing yesterday. An ALNOT has been issued.
He was talking to approach getting VFR flight following. Did they
find the 421 or is it still missing?

Also, a Cherokee landed on highway 410 yesterday (pilot put it down
in deteriorating weather). No damage or injuries. WSP however won't
let them fly it out of there....

Bela P. Havasreti

>Non-instrument-rated pilot and his 421C are down in the vicinity of Carson,
>WA. Last reported at 11000 (?). The mind boggles. Weather is not too swift
>in the Seattle area...dunno the condx down there.

[Bob Gardner]

According to the TV news, which is always a reliable source (sound of
gagging), he told ATC that he was experiencing problems, then he dropped off
of the radar. Not a good sign.


"Bela P. Havasreti" > wrote in message
...
> On Thu, 26 Jan 2006 12:19:36 -0800, "Bob Gardner" >
> wrote:
>
> The aircraft went missing yesterday. An ALNOT has been issued.
> He was talking to approach getting VFR flight following. Did they
> find the 421 or is it still missing?
>
> Also, a Cherokee landed on highway 410 yesterday (pilot put it down
> in deteriorating weather). No damage or injuries. WSP however won't
> let them fly it out of there....
>
> Bela P. Havasreti
>
>>Non-instrument-rated pilot and his 421C are down in the vicinity of
>>Carson,
>>WA. Last reported at 11000 (?). The mind boggles. Weather is not too swift
>>in the Seattle area...dunno the condx down there.
>

[Darkwing]

"Flyingmonk" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Dang nab it! Another one down? He's OK?
>
> The Monk
>

http://www.kpho.com/Global/story.asp?S=4413486&nav=23Ku

------------------------------------------
DW

[Darkwing]

"Bob Gardner" > wrote in message
. ..
> Non-instrument-rated pilot and his 421C are down in the vicinity of
> Carson, WA. Last reported at 11000 (?). The mind boggles. Weather is not
> too swift in the Seattle area...dunno the condx down there.
>
> --
> Bob Gardner
>
> Send a Singing Valentine to a loved one.
> Go to www.singingvalentine.com for details.
>

http://www.columbian.com/news/localNews/01262006news125225.cfm

Doesn't sound good, VFR into IFR takes another one down.

--------------------------------------------------
DW

[Dan]

I would think that few insurance companies would insure a pilot in a
421 without an Instrument rating!

Dan

[Jim Macklin]

Maybe he didn't have insurance.



"Dan" > wrote in message
ups.com...
|I would think that few insurance companies would insure a
pilot in a
| 421 without an Instrument rating!
|
| Dan
|

[Bela P. Havasreti]

On Thu, 26 Jan 2006 23:04:54 -0600, "Jim Macklin"
> wrote:

>Maybe he didn't have insurance.
>
>
>
>"Dan" > wrote in message
ups.com...
>|I would think that few insurance companies would insure a
>pilot in a
>| 421 without an Instrument rating!
>|
>| Dan
>|
>

The aircraft in question was insured.

Bela P. Havasreti

[G Farris]

In article om>,
says...
>
>
>I would think that few insurance companies would insure a pilot in a
>421 without an Instrument rating!
>

I don't pretend to know how the insurance companies see it, but that is a
lot of airplane to manage for a single pilot - IR rated or not. In many
ways, a KingAir would be "easier" to fly in those conditions.

GF

[Robert M. Gary]

That is amazing that a non-instrument rated pilot could get insurance
in a 421. I wanted to partner with a non-instrument rated pilot in my
Mooney and the broker almost laughed.

-Robert

[Jay Honeck]

> That is amazing that a non-instrument rated pilot could get insurance
> in a 421. I wanted to partner with a non-instrument rated pilot in my
> Mooney and the broker almost laughed.

Why?

Mary and I have priced insurance in all sorts of planes. Neither of us are
instrument rated, and insurance costs are only marginally higher.

Now a 421 is whole different kettle of fish -- but a Mooney? 10 hours of
instruction, and we're in.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Scott D]

On Fri, 27 Jan 2006 08:57:33 +0100, G Farris > wrote:

>In article om>,
says...
>>
>>
>>I would think that few insurance companies would insure a pilot in a
>>421 without an Instrument rating!
>>
>
>I don't pretend to know how the insurance companies see it, but that is a
>lot of airplane to manage for a single pilot - IR rated or not. In many
>ways, a KingAir would be "easier" to fly in those conditions.
>
>GF

How is the 421C a lot of airplane for one pilot? I find it quiet easy
for one pilot. With all the switches located on the left side of the
seat, I find it much easier for one pilot to operate than for two. It
is hard for the copilot to activate a lot of stuff like the lights,
deicing/anti icing equipment... you name it. There is not much
accessible for a right seat pilot to reach without interfering with
the left seat pilot.

Scott D.

take out the obvious to email me

[[email protected]]

>>>>I recently talked with an owner of a 421 that had relatively low multi
engine time. He was partnered with another multi pilot. Both are
instrument rated. He told me that the first year's insurance was over
$7000
and that was after a Flight Safety course and 60 hours with high time
421
MEI. <<<<

I've read about new Cirrus SR22 owners paying $8000 for their first
year's insurance. That seems incredible to me that a cabin-class
pressurized turbo'd twin like a 421 could cost less to insure than a
fixed-gear single.

[Darkwing]

> wrote in message
oups.com...
>>>>>I recently talked with an owner of a 421 that had relatively low multi
> engine time. He was partnered with another multi pilot. Both are
> instrument rated. He told me that the first year's insurance was over
> $7000
> and that was after a Flight Safety course and 60 hours with high time
> 421
> MEI. <<<<
>
> I've read about new Cirrus SR22 owners paying $8000 for their first
> year's insurance. That seems incredible to me that a cabin-class
> pressurized turbo'd twin like a 421 could cost less to insure than a
> fixed-gear single.
>

Well the Cirrus is on a roll here lately.

-------------------------------------------
DW

[[email protected]]

>>>Well the Cirrus is on a roll here lately<<<

No doubt. I still think it's a very impressive airplane, especially
after an hour-long CFI demo ride I went on last summer. Twin speed,
fixed gear and just one engine to feed/maintain. Then there's that
panel... Amazing.

[Allen]

> wrote in message
oups.com...
>>>>>I recently talked with an owner of a 421 that had relatively low multi
> engine time. He was partnered with another multi pilot. Both are
> instrument rated. He told me that the first year's insurance was over
> $7000
> and that was after a Flight Safety course and 60 hours with high time
> 421
> MEI. <<<<
>
> I've read about new Cirrus SR22 owners paying $8000 for their first
> year's insurance. That seems incredible to me that a cabin-class
> pressurized turbo'd twin like a 421 could cost less to insure than a
> fixed-gear single.


Hull value - you can buy a pretty well decked out Cessna 421C for the same
price as a SR22.

Allen

[Jim Burns]

I believe the 421 I refered to had a hull value of around $275,000. Just a
comparison, we insure our Aztec for $90k hull, 1mil/300k/100k liability and
the premium is around $4500. I've also read about the Cirrus insurance
rates being high. I was lead to believe it was because the Cirrus is a
relatively new design and insurance companies are/were nervous about
composite construction. It would be interesting to know the breakdown of
hull/liability premiums on a new Cirrus.
Jim

> wrote in message
oups.com...
> >>>>I recently talked with an owner of a 421 that had relatively low multi
> engine time. He was partnered with another multi pilot. Both are
> instrument rated. He told me that the first year's insurance was over
> $7000
> and that was after a Flight Safety course and 60 hours with high time
> 421
> MEI. <<<<
>
> I've read about new Cirrus SR22 owners paying $8000 for their first
> year's insurance. That seems incredible to me that a cabin-class
> pressurized turbo'd twin like a 421 could cost less to insure than a
> fixed-gear single.
>

[G Farris]

In article >, <Unknown> says...

>
>How is the 421C a lot of airplane for one pilot? I find it quiet easy
>for one pilot. With all the switches located on the left side of the
>seat, I find it much easier for one pilot to operate than for two. It
>is hard for the copilot to activate a lot of stuff like the lights,
>deicing/anti icing equipment... you name it. There is not much
>accessible for a right seat pilot to reach without interfering with
>the left seat pilot.
>


Well, you notice I said "manage" - not "fly".
I was referring as much to matters of judgment as anything else, and with
this a second pilot can be of immeasurable help. I agree it's designed for
single-pilot, and it's "easy" to fly - but I happen to believe that this
category of aircraft is a lot easier to fly into a world of trouble than it
is to fly back out of it. This was part of my reference to a turboprop - a
KingAir may require some more serious preparation before getting off the
ground, but with more power and better systems, it will prove more capable
and less effort to manage when you get into the nasties in the teens and
lower flight levels.

The other part of my statement refers to engine management - large piston
engines, particularly when they are turbocharged require careful management
with regard to temperature and altitude, and a second pilot can help with
this too. Compared once again to two turboprops, which just spin effortlessly
in these conditions.

I love these large piston twins - but sometimes I think, besides being too
expensive for many owners to maintain properly, they are just a bit too big
for their own britches. . .

Just my opinion.

G Faris

[John Theune]

wrote:
>>>>>I recently talked with an owner of a 421 that had relatively low multi
>
> engine time. He was partnered with another multi pilot. Both are
> instrument rated. He told me that the first year's insurance was over
> $7000
> and that was after a Flight Safety course and 60 hours with high time
> 421
> MEI. <<<<
>
> I've read about new Cirrus SR22 owners paying $8000 for their first
> year's insurance. That seems incredible to me that a cabin-class
> pressurized turbo'd twin like a 421 could cost less to insure than a
> fixed-gear single.
>
Hull values are similar and the liability issues probable are too.

[gatt]

"Bob Gardner" > wrote in message
. ..
> Non-instrument-rated pilot and his 421C are down in the vicinity of
> Carson, WA. Last reported at 11000 (?). The mind boggles. Weather is not
> too swift in the Seattle area...dunno the condx down there.


I'm near the Gorge, in the Portland area, and haven't flown in a month
because of the wind/weather. Waiting to get my approaches in, but the
weather's not even good enough for IFR practice most days. (No approach at
the home field)

-c

[NW_PILOT]

"gatt" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Bob Gardner" > wrote in message
> . ..
> > Non-instrument-rated pilot and his 421C are down in the vicinity of
> > Carson, WA. Last reported at 11000 (?). The mind boggles. Weather is not
> > too swift in the Seattle area...dunno the condx down there.
>
>
> I'm near the Gorge, in the Portland area, and haven't flown in a month
> because of the wind/weather. Waiting to get my approaches in, but the
> weather's not even good enough for IFR practice most days. (No approach
at
> the home field)
>
> -c
>
>

You have a NDB at KTTD!

[Robert M. Gary]

> Why?
I can't read the minds of the insurance co's so I'll pass on that.

>Mary and I have priced insurance in all sorts of planes. Neither of us are
> instrument rated, and insurance costs are only marginally higher.

The final quote was an additional $1200/yr for the lack of an
instrument rating. However, he did have a commercial. He did have
Mooney time.
For a pilot low time w/o retactable time the quote was an additional
$2000 the first year.

-Robert

[Robert M. Gary]

>> I wanted to partner with a non-instrument rated pilot in my
>> Mooney and the broker almost laughed.
>Why?

Ok, I'll take a guess. You can run into a lot more weather at 200knots
than 110knots in a C172???

-Robert

[Robert M. Gary]

> You have a NDB at KTTD!

What's an NDB? Is that that thing that sends "dot, dot, dot" on the
right side and "di di di" on the left side?? :)

-Robert

[Jim Macklin]

That would be an Adcock Range or 4 course range. The NDB is
just a radio station that is used by the ADF as a source for
the directional loop antenna to point to.
BTW, it was .- and -. (A and N) and when on course all you
heard was a steady ____________

You flew a little to the side of the leg and thus hear a
steady tone with a slightly audible A in the background.
There was even a reed needle that could be panel ,mounted
and would vibrate. That was high tech in 1940.



--
James H. Macklin
ATP,CFI,A&P

"Robert M. Gary" > wrote in message
ps.com...
|> You have a NDB at KTTD!
|
| What's an NDB? Is that that thing that sends "dot, dot,
dot" on the
| right side and "di di di" on the left side?? :)
|
| -Robert
|

[Bob Moore]

"Jim Macklin" >wrote

> That would be an Adcock Range or 4 course range. The NDB is
> just a radio station that is used by the ADF

Jim, you really don't catch the jokes very well, do you?

Bob Moore

[Jim Macklin]

I was joining the thread after deleting previous posts to
clean up my hard drive. Had thousands of mostly unwanted
stuff. Sorry if I wasn't looking for a joke in a "serious"
subject.

But I guess I can be described as a stick in the mud, a wall
flower, a geek, dork, dumb-ass,slow, out of touch, in a rut,
but hey, nobody's perfect.

Jim

--
The people think the Constitution protects their rights;
But government sees it as an obstacle to be overcome.
some support
http://www.usdoj.gov/olc/secondamendment2.htm
See http://www.fija.org/ more about your rights and duties.


"Bob Moore" > wrote in message
22...
| "Jim Macklin" >wrote
|
| > That would be an Adcock Range or 4 course range. The
NDB is
| > just a radio station that is used by the ADF
|
| Jim, you really don't catch the jokes very well, do you?
|
| Bob Moore

[Bob Gardner]

I agree that a 421C can be handled by one pilot as long as things are going
well. However, should something pop up that diverts the pilot's attention,
like trying to stay out of the clouds at relatively low altitude in
mountainous terrain, it can be problematical. Had he been instrument rated,
he would have been above FL180 in the sunshine, with a lot of altitude/time
to work things out if necessary. My one and only "feather and land"
experience was in a 421C, and I was very happy that the FBO I worked for
required two pilots on IFR charters...the extra hands and brain came in
handy. Being at 14000 when the engine packed up didn't hurt. A 421 is not a
scud-running airplane.


<Scott D> wrote in message
...
> On Fri, 27 Jan 2006 08:57:33 +0100, G Farris > wrote:
>
>>In article om>,
says...
>>>
>>>
>>>I would think that few insurance companies would insure a pilot in a
>>>421 without an Instrument rating!
>>>
>>
>>I don't pretend to know how the insurance companies see it, but that is a
>>lot of airplane to manage for a single pilot - IR rated or not. In many
>>ways, a KingAir would be "easier" to fly in those conditions.
>>
>>GF
>
> How is the 421C a lot of airplane for one pilot? I find it quiet easy
> for one pilot. With all the switches located on the left side of the
> seat, I find it much easier for one pilot to operate than for two. It
> is hard for the copilot to activate a lot of stuff like the lights,
> deicing/anti icing equipment... you name it. There is not much
> accessible for a right seat pilot to reach without interfering with
> the left seat pilot.
>
> Scott D.
>
> take out the obvious to email me

[Morgans]

> wrote \

> I've read about new Cirrus SR22 owners paying $8000 for their first
> year's insurance. That seems incredible to me that a cabin-class
> pressurized turbo'd twin like a 421 could cost less to insure than a
> fixed-gear single.

It doesn't seem incredible to me, in the least bit, after reading about the
rash of crunched up Cirri.
--
Jim in NC

[Morgans]

"gatt" > wrote

> I'm near the Gorge, in the Portland area, and haven't flown in a month
> because of the wind/weather. Waiting to get my approaches in, but the
> weather's not even good enough for IFR practice most days. (No approach
> at the home field)

Is there no gps instrument approach?
--
Jim in NC

[Bob Gardner]

Afterthought...he told Seattle Center that he was having problems. We don't
know what those problems were, and he may not have given Center much info on
them.

He could have hired an instrument-rated commercial pilot to accompany him (I
logged more than a few hours doing this), or could have simply paid someone
to fly the trip while he relaxed...I've flown some rated pilots under those
conditions.

Bottom line: Sophisticated airplane, VFR pilot, bad weather....deadly
combination if anything goes wrong.
<Scott D> wrote in message
...
> On Fri, 27 Jan 2006 08:57:33 +0100, G Farris > wrote:
>
>>In article om>,
says...
>>>
>>>
>>>I would think that few insurance companies would insure a pilot in a
>>>421 without an Instrument rating!
>>>
>>
>>I don't pretend to know how the insurance companies see it, but that is a
>>lot of airplane to manage for a single pilot - IR rated or not. In many
>>ways, a KingAir would be "easier" to fly in those conditions.
>>
>>GF
>
> How is the 421C a lot of airplane for one pilot? I find it quiet easy
> for one pilot. With all the switches located on the left side of the
> seat, I find it much easier for one pilot to operate than for two. It
> is hard for the copilot to activate a lot of stuff like the lights,
> deicing/anti icing equipment... you name it. There is not much
> accessible for a right seat pilot to reach without interfering with
> the left seat pilot.
>
> Scott D.
>
> take out the obvious to email me

[Robert M. Gary]

> NDB is just a radio station that is used by the ADF as a source for
> the directional loop antenna to point to.

Ok, I guess I remember my grandfather telling me about those things. :)

-Robert, CFI

[Nathan Young]

On 27 Jan 2006 07:37:42 -0800, "
> wrote:

>>>>>I recently talked with an owner of a 421 that had relatively low multi
>engine time. He was partnered with another multi pilot. Both are
>instrument rated. He told me that the first year's insurance was over
>$7000
>and that was after a Flight Safety course and 60 hours with high time
>421
>MEI. <<<<
>
>I've read about new Cirrus SR22 owners paying $8000 for their first
>year's insurance. That seems incredible to me that a cabin-class
>pressurized turbo'd twin like a 421 could cost less to insure than a
>fixed-gear single.

Need to consider the hull-values side of the equation to make certain
this is an apples/apples comparison. Pricing on a 421 can range from
the low $100k to over $500k for a decked out 421C. SR22's range from
$225 to nearly $400k.

Regardless, you would think the cost of new props and engine overhaul
on a 421, combined with the risk of a gear-up landing would make the
421 insurance much more expensive than with an SR22.

-Nathan

[Jim Macklin]

AMC ran the John Wayne/Ernest Gann classic THE HIGH and the
MIGHTY last week. I noticed that the GCA controller told
them they were below the GS, but then they showed the ILS
indicator and they had a 1/2 scale fly down.


--
The people think the Constitution protects their rights;
But government sees it as an obstacle to be overcome.
some support
http://www.usdoj.gov/olc/secondamendment2.htm
See http://www.fija.org/ more about your rights and duties.


"Robert M. Gary" > wrote in message
ups.com...
|> NDB is just a radio station that is used by the ADF as a
source for
| > the directional loop antenna to point to.
|
| Ok, I guess I remember my grandfather telling me about
those things. :)
|
| -Robert, CFI
|

[JJS]

>
> It doesn't seem incredible to me, in the least bit, after reading about the rash of crunched up Cirri.
> --
> Jim in NC

There were 15 Cirrus crashes last year.
There were 59 Cessna 182 crashes last year.



----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----

[Flyingmonk]

Thank you buddy, hope they find him alive and well.

The Monk

[Dave Stadt]

"JJS" <jschneider@remove socks cebridge.net> wrote in message
...
>
>
>>
>> It doesn't seem incredible to me, in the least bit, after reading about
>> the rash of crunched up Cirri.
>> --
>> Jim in NC
>
> There were 15 Cirrus crashes last year.
> There were 59 Cessna 182 crashes last year.

Means nothing. How many 182 vs Cirrus are flying? My guess it won't look
good for Cirrus.

>
>
>
> ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet
> News==----
> http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+
> Newsgroups
> ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption
> =----

[Jay Honeck]

>>>>>I recently talked with an owner of a 421 that had relatively low multi
> engine time. He was partnered with another multi pilot. Both are
> instrument rated. He told me that the first year's insurance was over
> $7000
> and that was after a Flight Safety course and 60 hours with high time
> 421
> MEI. <<<<
>
> I've read about new Cirrus SR22 owners paying $8000 for their first
> year's insurance. That seems incredible to me that a cabin-class
> pressurized turbo'd twin like a 421 could cost less to insure than a
> fixed-gear single.

I heard it's up to $15K for first year on a Cirrus.

I haven't checked that with my agent, but it sure sounds outrageous.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Honeck]

>>> I wanted to partner with a non-instrument rated pilot in my
>>> Mooney and the broker almost laughed.
>>Why?
>
> Ok, I'll take a guess. You can run into a lot more weather at 200knots
> than 110knots in a C172???

The point is, that's a good theory, but it's not borne out by the numbers.

Mary and I can get insurance in a Mooney tomorrow (with ~10 hours training,
due to our lack of complex time), for not a lot more than we're paying now,
and we're both VFR pilots.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Morgans]

"JJS" <jschneider@remove socks cebridge.net> wrote
>
> There were 15 Cirrus crashes last year.
> There were 59 Cessna 182 crashes last year.
\
How many Cirrius are in the fleet?
How many Cessna 182 in the fleet?

Another follow up question. What is the fatal rate per accident%?
--
Jim in NC

[Flyingmonk]

Jim wrote:
>"JJS" <jschneider@remove socks cebridge.net> wrote
>
>> There were 15 Cirrus crashes last year.
>> There were 59 Cessna 182 crashes last year.
>
>\
>How many Cirrius are in the fleet?
>How many Cessna 182 in the fleet?
>
>Another follow up question. What is the fatal rate per accident%?

How many C150, C152 and C172s last year? Anyone know?

The Monk

[Flyingmonk]

Jay wrote:
>> I've read about new Cirrus SR22 owners paying $8000 for their first
>> year's insurance. That seems incredible to me that a cabin-class
>> pressurized turbo'd twin like a 421 could cost less to insure than a
>> fixed-gear single.

>I heard it's up to $15K for first year on a Cirrus.
>
>I haven't checked that with my agent, but it sure sounds outrageous.

Wow even with a chute they still charge that much?

The Monk

[Montblack]

("Jim Macklin" )
> But I guess I can be described as a stick in the mud, a wall flower, a
> geek, dork, dumb-ass,slow, out of touch, in a rut, but hey, nobody's
> perfect.


Has to snow twice, sometimes, for you to get the drift?

That happens to many of us more than we'd like to admit. <g>


Montblack

[Scott D]

On Fri, 27 Jan 2006 13:51:22 -0800, "Bob Gardner" >
wrote:

>Afterthought...he told Seattle Center that he was having problems. We don't
>know what those problems were, and he may not have given Center much info on
>them.
>
>He could have hired an instrument-rated commercial pilot to accompany him (I
>logged more than a few hours doing this), or could have simply paid someone
>to fly the trip while he relaxed...I've flown some rated pilots under those
>conditions.
>
>Bottom line: Sophisticated airplane, VFR pilot, bad weather....deadly
>combination if anything goes wrong.

Don't get me wrong, I always like to have someone else sitting in the
right seat, if not just to talk on the radio and to be an extra set of
eyes but to keep me company. Its just that the 421 is set up for
single pilot and in my personal experience, the right seat guy just
cant do a whole lot even when the S*%$ gets bad. I have had two such
occurrences both dealing with IFR conditions and Icing in the 421. On
one occasion, I actually had the tail stall on me due to ice on the
tail, There was barely a trace of it on the leading edges, but it got
my attention real fast. Once I figured out what the heck was going
on, I blew the boots and we returned to normal flight, it lasted about
a whole 5-10 seconds, of course it seemed like an eternity but I don't
think that having a second person in there would have changed the
occurrence one bit. The other time was coming out of FL220 descending
into the clouds where the tops were at 19 and the bottoms were at 16.
Once I entered, I was in the worst ride of my life. We started
picking up a trace of ice then and you better believe I started
blowing the boots early this time. I did have a right seat guy with
me then, but there was nothing he could do, All I could do was bring
the engines back to 17" on the manifold and try to keep a somewhat
normal attitude and descent through. The right seat pilot was just
along for the ride, sure, he was keeping an eye on the engine gauges
for me, but at that time, If something were to have happened, it was
going to and there was nothing either of us could have done. I felt
sorry for the passenger in the back who had a little dog with him. He
was white as a ghost when we landed and he made the comment about
never having seen luggage hit the ceiling before.

I just love living and flying in the Rockies ;)


Personally, I don't think any plane is a scud running plane and no VFR
only on non-current IFR pilot should be flying in the soup period. I
don't care if its a 421 or a 172 they can all get away from you.
Besides, a 421 should be able to hold altitude on one engine. This is
just speculation on my part, but I got to wonder if he didn't pop up
into the clouds and maybe encounter some ice?


Scott D.

take out the obvious to email me

[Jim Macklin]

I'm so poor I had to borrow money to pay attention.


"Montblack" > wrote in
message ...
| ("Jim Macklin" )
| > But I guess I can be described as a stick in the mud, a
wall flower, a
| > geek, dork, dumb-ass,slow, out of touch, in a rut, but
hey, nobody's
| > perfect.
|
|
| Has to snow twice, sometimes, for you to get the drift?
|
| That happens to many of us more than we'd like to admit.
<g>
|
|
| Montblack
|

[Dave Stadt]

"Flyingmonk" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Jay wrote:
>>> I've read about new Cirrus SR22 owners paying $8000 for their first
>>> year's insurance. That seems incredible to me that a cabin-class
>>> pressurized turbo'd twin like a 421 could cost less to insure than a
>>> fixed-gear single.
>
>>I heard it's up to $15K for first year on a Cirrus.
>>
>>I haven't checked that with my agent, but it sure sounds outrageous.
>
> Wow even with a chute they still charge that much?
>
> The Monk

Could be because of the chute.

[Newps]

Jay Honeck wrote:


>
>
> The point is, that's a good theory, but it's not borne out by the numbers.
>
> Mary and I can get insurance in a Mooney tomorrow (with ~10 hours training,
> due to our lack of complex time), for not a lot more than we're paying now,
> and we're both VFR pilots.

That has been my experience. It would have cost more to insure a 206
limited to four seats than my Bonanza costs for 6 seats.

[JJS]

"Dave Stadt" > wrote in message om...
>
> "JJS" <jschneider@remove socks cebridge.net> wrote in message ...
>>
>>
>>>
>>> It doesn't seem incredible to me, in the least bit, after reading about the rash of crunched up Cirri.
>>> --
>>> Jim in NC
>>
>> There were 15 Cirrus crashes last year.
>> There were 59 Cessna 182 crashes last year.
>
> Means nothing. How many 182 vs Cirrus are flying? My guess it won't look good for Cirrus.
>
>>

I disagree. It means you can crash in either airplane regardless of the number of them flying.



----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----

[John Gaquin]

"G Farris" > wrote in message news:drcjm0
>
> I...... but that is a
> lot of airplane to manage for a single pilot - IR rated or not.

The 4xx series Cessnas were designed for single pilot operation.

[Ben Jackson]

On 2006-01-28, Jay Honeck > wrote:
>
> Mary and I can get insurance in a Mooney tomorrow (with ~10 hours training,
> due to our lack of complex time), for not a lot more than we're paying now,
> and we're both VFR pilots.

I got insurance in a Comanche as a VFR pilot. However, the terms
specifically required 10 hours of instrument training before solo.
I already had some (more than 5, less than 10) hours in type plus
a little other retract and high perf time.

--
Ben Jackson
>
http://www.ben.com/

[Ken Reed]

>>I've read about new Cirrus SR22 owners paying $8000 for their first
>>year's insurance. That seems incredible to me that a cabin-class
>>pressurized turbo'd twin like a 421 could cost less to insure than a
>>fixed-gear single.

> I heard it's up to $15K for first year on a Cirrus.
> I haven't checked that with my agent, but it sure sounds outrageous.

I paid $4,000 for my first year's insurance on my Cirrus (SR-22).
---
Ken Reed

[[email protected]]

>>>I paid $4,000 for my first year's insurance on my Cirrus (SR-22). <<<


Ken, are you sure that wasn't just a downpayment? <G>