My introduction and 4 seater kits

[LFOD76]

Greetings,

I'm not exactly a newbie when it comes to kit built aircraft but I'm finally
looking for my own plane to build. I helped some and flew lots in my uncles
RV-4 and ever since have been bitten by the bug.

I think I want a 4 seat (any suggestions, concerns on this?) but that seems
to drive the price up. Ideally it would be 4 place, STOL, with a cruise of
around 150+. (suggestions?)

This forum was recommended to me by other builders as a good place to meet
people who have been there before. So here I am.

Thanks for the info!

-Dan

[LFOD76]

Dave,

That BD-4 is very interesting. The specs look like a good match for my
requirements. This one is on the list of possibles for sure.

thanks!


"Dave Anderson" > wrote in message
news:AkFQa.62094$H17.19394@sccrnsc02...
> You might consider the oft-forgotten BD-4, recently resurrected and made
> available in kit form. "4 seats" is arguable, 2+2 is more like it, but I
> think that's true with most "4-seaters". It's an issue of room rather
than
> load. Not exactly STOL, but the extended-wing taildragger form has pretty
> good short and soft capabilities. Cruise of 150+ is no problem.
>
> http://www.tvap.com (kit)
> http://www.bd-4.org (most info)
> http://www.bd4.org (my lil'ol' bird)
>
> "LFOD76" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Greetings,
> >
> > I'm not exactly a newbie when it comes to kit built aircraft but I'm
> finally
> > looking for my own plane to build. I helped some and flew lots in my
> uncles
> > RV-4 and ever since have been bitten by the bug.
> >
> > I think I want a 4 seat (any suggestions, concerns on this?) but that
> seems
> > to drive the price up. Ideally it would be 4 place, STOL, with a cruise
> of
> > around 150+. (suggestions?)
> >
> > This forum was recommended to me by other builders as a good place to
meet
> > people who have been there before. So here I am.
> >
> > Thanks for the info!
> >
> > -Dan
> >
> >
>
>

[RobertR237]

In article >, "LFOD76" >
writes:

>
>Greetings,
>
>I'm not exactly a newbie when it comes to kit built aircraft but I'm finally
>looking for my own plane to build. I helped some and flew lots in my uncles
>RV-4 and ever since have been bitten by the bug.
>
>I think I want a 4 seat (any suggestions, concerns on this?) but that seems
>to drive the price up. Ideally it would be 4 place, STOL, with a cruise of
>around 150+. (suggestions?)
>
>This forum was recommended to me by other builders as a good place to meet
>people who have been there before. So here I am.
>
>Thanks for the info!
>
>-Dan
>
>
>

If you have already got some experience with Vans RV aircraft, I would highly
suggest you take a look of the new RV-10. I haven't seen one yet but would lay
good odds on it being a great four-seater. Other than that, the are several
great four-place aircraft available. The Bearhawk, BD-4 (Ugly), AeroComp-4,
and Stallion are all Highwing four-place that are worth taking a look at. The
Express, Pulsar (KIS) Super Cruiser, RV-10, and Lancair ES are traditional
low-wings. The Aero-Canard and Velocity XL and canard styled four-place.

I think you can tell from my signature line which I picked and am very happy
with my selection. Were I faced with the same selection today, I would give
the RV-10 a good hard look though.


Bob Reed
www.kisbuild.r-a-reed-assoc.com (KIS Builders Site)
KIS Cruiser in progress...Slow but steady progress....

"Ladies and Gentlemen, take my advice,
pull down your pants and Slide on the Ice!"
(M.A.S.H. Sidney Freedman)

[Kevin Horton]

In article >, > wrote:

> In article >, "LFOD76" says...
> >
> >Greetings,
> >
> >I'm not exactly a newbie when it comes to kit built aircraft but I'm finally
> >looking for my own plane to build. I helped some and flew lots in my uncles
> >RV-4 and ever since have been bitten by the bug.
> >
> >I think I want a 4 seat (any suggestions, concerns on this?) but that seems
> >to drive the price up. Ideally it would be 4 place, STOL, with a cruise of
> >around 150+. (suggestions?)
> >
> >This forum was recommended to me by other builders as a good place to meet
> >people who have been there before. So here I am.
> >
> >Thanks for the info!
> >
> >-Dan
>
> There aren't many 4 seat kits around. The best - and newest - is the RV-10,
> just introduced last week. Other than that the STOL requirement limits you
> slightly. Cozy and Velocity are out. Murphy Super Rebel and Moose, KIS
> Cruiser, the new Jabiru 4 seat, the Express and the V6 STOL come to mind.
>

Dan - how do you define STOL? Are you just looking at performance
numbers, or are you also worried about the ability of the aircraft to
handle rough strips? If you don't need the rough strip capability, the
RV-10 might be worth a look.

Van has released performance numbers for the RV-10, after his initial
testing. With 260 hp, at gross weight, take-off ground roll is 500 ft,
and landing ground roll is 650 ft. At a two person & 3/4 fuel weight,
the distances are 360 and 525 ft. Is that STOL enough for you?

--
Kevin Horton - RV-8
Ottawa, Canada
http://go.phpwebhosting.com/~khorton/rv8/

[Jari Kaija]

> The rough strips are important, I'm a farmer in the appalachian mountains
of
> pennsylvania, our land is not very flat and it looks like some bulldozing
> will be required to make a safe strip. Our local grass strip is run(?) by

Then you should forget travelling speed >150. How about this
one: http://www.zenithair.com/stolch801/default.htm


--
-Jari / OH-XJJ
www.jarikaija.com
www.project-ch701.net
(Spammers! All spam messages will be deleted automatically
from server, so, save your miserable time...)

[Russell Kent]

RobertR237 wrote:

> If you have already got some experience with Vans RV aircraft, I would highly
> suggest you take a look of the new RV-10. I haven't seen one yet but would lay
> good odds on it being a great four-seater. Other than that, the are several
> great four-place aircraft available. The Bearhawk, BD-4 (Ugly), AeroComp-4,
> and Stallion are all Highwing four-place that are worth taking a look at. The
> Express, Pulsar (KIS) Super Cruiser, RV-10, and Lancair ES are traditional
> low-wings. The Aero-Canard and Velocity XL and canard styled four-place.

Actually, I think the Stallion (Super Stallion) is a 6-place, but it's still a good
one to offer:
http://www.aircraftdesigns.com/stallion/stallion_01.html

Russell Kent

[Gig Giacona]

Check out the Zenith 801 at www.zentithair.com. It's not as fast as you
would like but it is STOL. They also have the 640 which isn't STOL but is
faster.

Gig Giacona
PP-SEL RH
N601WR www.peoamerica.net/N601WR

"LFOD76" > wrote in message
...
> Greetings,
>
> I'm not exactly a newbie when it comes to kit built aircraft but I'm
finally
> looking for my own plane to build. I helped some and flew lots in my
uncles
> RV-4 and ever since have been bitten by the bug.
>
> I think I want a 4 seat (any suggestions, concerns on this?) but that
seems
> to drive the price up. Ideally it would be 4 place, STOL, with a cruise
of
> around 150+. (suggestions?)
>
> This forum was recommended to me by other builders as a good place to meet
> people who have been there before. So here I am.
>
> Thanks for the info!
>
> -Dan
>
>

[John Thompson]

I was going to build a 2 place 701, but thought about the 801 when they
released it on plans as well as kits. Themajor problems with the 801
(imho, this is for my "mission profile", a family plane with decent
cruise) is that its cruise speed is well below what you require, and
while it has a 1000# of useful load, its baggage space is not much
bigger than a couple of suitcases.

OTOH, the design I decided to go with, the Bearhawk, 4 place, good
cruise, and lots of baggage space and useful load, and buildable from
plans as well as a kit, meets my needs (and yours) perfectly.

John

[Jari Kaija]

> Someone else here was talking about the Zenith CH 801. Now *that's*
> ugly.

Hmmmm.... it/he/she can fly....... so, it/he/she can't be ugly!

-j

[RobertR237]

In article >, "LFOD76"
> writes:

>
>The rough strips are important, I'm a farmer in the appalachian mountains of
>pennsylvania, our land is not very flat and it looks like some bulldozing
>will be required to make a safe strip. Our local grass strip is run(?) by
>an FBO that let the grass get over 2+ feet tall and told my uncle (with the
>rv4) it was safe to land. In fact the RV felt like it wanted to go belly up
>when it was landed there.
>
>So that is why STOL is important to me, I'd rather take my chances on my own
>strip, that I'll maintain myself. I dont think I could ever safely land the
>RV-4 here.
>
>

Based on everything that you have said, I would recommend the Bearhawk. I am
not that convinced the RV-10 would be that good on rough fields. The Bearhawk
looks to be an outstanding aircraft for rough fields but not sure if it has
STOL capabilities. If you don't mind damn ugly airplanes, the Zenith CH 801
would be a good choice.


Bob Reed
www.kisbuild.r-a-reed-assoc.com (KIS Builders Site)
KIS Cruiser in progress...Slow but steady progress....

"Ladies and Gentlemen, take my advice,
pull down your pants and Slide on the Ice!"
(M.A.S.H. Sidney Freedman)

[Del Rawlins]

On 15 Jul 2003 03:18 PM, RobertR237 posted the following:

> Based on everything that you have said, I would recommend the Bearhawk.
> I am not that convinced the RV-10 would be that good on rough fields.
> The Bearhawk looks to be an outstanding aircraft for rough fields but
> not sure if it has STOL capabilities.

Those who have flown the Bearhawk confirm that it has outstanding STOL
abilities. The flaps are 8 feet long (each) and go down 50 degrees at
full deployment (plain flaps, not fowler or slotted). The landing gear
uses gear legs similar to what a cub would use, but instead of bungees
the Bearhawk uses a pair of oil filled shock absorbers. This gives
outstanding dampening whether on a hard surface runway or bouncing
through the sticks and rocks, in addition to having lower drag than
bungees. A number of people building other designs have purchased the
Bearhawk plans solely to get the landing gear drawings.

Another factor to consider is the ease of making repairs to the tube and
fabric fuselage and tail feathers, as compared to the all aluminum RV-10
and Zenith designs. When operating from rough strips, mishaps can and
do happen despite our best efforts, so repairability is a legitimate
concern. I've personally flown in a couple of tube/fabric planes which
were wrecked in remote locations, and restored into hands-off flying
condition. One of them was even flown out after making field repairs.

Personally I find the Zenith designs interesting, and I'd consider
building/buying one as a second aircraft for making local flights. But,
as has been mentioned by others, the limited cargo space and low cruise
speed make even the 801 totally unacceptable for my use.

----------------------------------------------------
Del Rawlins-
Remove _kills_spammers_ to reply via email.
Unofficial Bearhawk FAQ website:
http://www.rawlinsbrothers.org/bhfaq/

[LFOD76]

I can see the beauty in A) Taking off on my own land, B) bringing my wife
and friends along, and C) getting to my destination in a respectable time.
Form follows funtion in my book. Yes the RV-10 is dead sexy but if I tried
to land it here it would probably just be dead. I plan on measuring out the
few areas where strips could be feasable this week.

Your help is greatly appreciated and keep the suggestions coming. I've been
visiting all the sites you've all suggested.


"RobertR237" > wrote in message
...
> In article >, Mike Borgelt
> > writes:
>
> >
> >>BD-4 (Ugly),
> >
> >Cute , actually.
> >
> >Someone else here was talking about the Zenith CH 801. Now *that's*
> >ugly.
> >
> >Mike Borgelt BD4 VH-BDW
> >
> >
>
> Mike,
>
> Seen a lot of BD-4's and have yet to see one that was cute but when
compared to
> the Zenith CH 801, they are down right beautiful!
>
> Then again, beauty has always been in the eye of the beholder.
>
>
> Bob Reed
> www.kisbuild.r-a-reed-assoc.com (KIS Builders Site)
> KIS Cruiser in progress...Slow but steady progress....
>
> "Ladies and Gentlemen, take my advice,
> pull down your pants and Slide on the Ice!"
> (M.A.S.H. Sidney Freedman)
>

[nuke]

Another a/c that might fit your bill is the Super Cyclone. It's a C-180/185
reproduction kit sold by a company in Quebec, Canada. Here's the website:
http://www3.sympatico.ca/st-justaviation/ It's a real heavy hauler and
easily meets your specs. I haven't flown one but if it's true to the
original it should be a pussycat to fly [except when that big springy
landing gear tosses you back into the sky :)]
nuke

"LFOD76" > wrote in message
...
> Greetings,
>
> I'm not exactly a newbie when it comes to kit built aircraft but I'm
finally
> looking for my own plane to build. I helped some and flew lots in my
uncles
> RV-4 and ever since have been bitten by the bug.
>
> I think I want a 4 seat (any suggestions, concerns on this?) but that
seems
> to drive the price up. Ideally it would be 4 place, STOL, with a cruise
of
> around 150+. (suggestions?)
>
> This forum was recommended to me by other builders as a good place to meet
> people who have been there before. So here I am.
>
> Thanks for the info!
>
> -Dan
>
>
>

[Andre]

Jari,
I couldn't agree more!
While I'm restoring my Sonerai, I have to rent a C172 and I occasionally fly
with my Boet in his beautifully restored Super Faulk (Spelling???) motor
glider. If it flies it's beautifull!
A

"Jari Kaija" > wrote in message
...
>
> > Someone else here was talking about the Zenith CH 801. Now *that's*
> > ugly.
>
> Hmmmm.... it/he/she can fly....... so, it/he/she can't be ugly!
>
> -j
>
>
>

[Andre]

"- = krusty = -" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Andre" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Jari,
> > I couldn't agree more!
> > While I'm restoring my Sonerai, I have to rent a C172 and I occasionally
> fly
> > with my Boet in his beautifully restored Super Faulk (Spelling???) motor
> > glider. If it flies it's beautifull!
> > A
> >
> > "Jari Kaija" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > >
> > > > Someone else here was talking about the Zenith CH 801. Now *that's*
> > > > ugly.
> > >
> > > Hmmmm.... it/he/she can fly....... so, it/he/she can't be ugly!
> > >
> > > -j
> > >
>
> By "boet" I'm assuming you're from SA.
> Welcome, glad to see I'm not the only one!
>
> -c.
>

Yes, born and raised in Port Elizabeth, currently in Pretoria... with my
Sonerai in the garage.
Andre

[- = krusty = -]

> > > >
> >
> > By "boet" I'm assuming you're from SA.
> > Welcome, glad to see I'm not the only one!
> >
> > -c.
> >
>
> Yes, born and raised in Port Elizabeth, currently in Pretoria... with my
> Sonerai in the garage.
> Andre
>

Ah, born and raised on a sheep farm in Tarkastad... (about 90km from
Queenstown)

In Durban now with plans on the table in the garage....

-c.

[Andre]

Keep your eyes peeled for a Yellow Sonerai, with a very "Retro" looking
canopy, named 'Butterball' - ZS-ULG
Won't be 100 years before she's flying again (and me of course..:-)

"- = krusty = -" > wrote in message
...
>
> > > > >
> > >
> > > By "boet" I'm assuming you're from SA.
> > > Welcome, glad to see I'm not the only one!
> > >
> > > -c.
> > >
> >
> > Yes, born and raised in Port Elizabeth, currently in Pretoria... with my
> > Sonerai in the garage.
> > Andre
> >
>
> Ah, born and raised on a sheep farm in Tarkastad... (about 90km from
> Queenstown)
>
> In Durban now with plans on the table in the garage....
>
> -c.
>
>

[- = krusty = -]

Will do! You didn't go to Potch in May did you? I met 3 guys from PE there
and they forced me to deal with copious amounts of beer. Great chaps! <g>
One was an airline pilot and he's building an RV with one of the others in
their garage...you may know them from the local EAA chapter. They flew up
in a 172.

"Andre" > wrote in message
...
> Keep your eyes peeled for a Yellow Sonerai, with a very "Retro" looking
> canopy, named 'Butterball' - ZS-ULG
> Won't be 100 years before she's flying again (and me of course..:-)
>
> "- = krusty = -" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > > > > >
> > > >
> > > > By "boet" I'm assuming you're from SA.
> > > > Welcome, glad to see I'm not the only one!
> > > >
> > > > -c.
> > > >
> > >
> > > Yes, born and raised in Port Elizabeth, currently in Pretoria... with
my
> > > Sonerai in the garage.
> > > Andre
> > >
> >
> > Ah, born and raised on a sheep farm in Tarkastad... (about 90km from
> > Queenstown)
> >
> > In Durban now with plans on the table in the garage....
> >
> > -c.
> >
> >
>
>

[Andre]

I attended only the Saturday afternoon which was about enough to get a
hotdog and see the Mass Exodus of all the aircraft. I'm not familiar with
the PE chapter as I attend EAA Chapter 322 at Grand Central. Nowadays I only
pop down to PE over Christmas every year to do some gliding in the
Elandsriver valley.

"- = krusty = -" > wrote in message
...
> Will do! You didn't go to Potch in May did you? I met 3 guys from PE
there
> and they forced me to deal with copious amounts of beer. Great chaps! <g>
> One was an airline pilot and he's building an RV with one of the others in
> their garage...you may know them from the local EAA chapter. They flew up
> in a 172.
>
> "Andre" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Keep your eyes peeled for a Yellow Sonerai, with a very "Retro" looking
> > canopy, named 'Butterball' - ZS-ULG
> > Won't be 100 years before she's flying again (and me of course..:-)
> >
> > "- = krusty = -" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > By "boet" I'm assuming you're from SA.
> > > > > Welcome, glad to see I'm not the only one!
> > > > >
> > > > > -c.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > Yes, born and raised in Port Elizabeth, currently in Pretoria...
with
> my
> > > > Sonerai in the garage.
> > > > Andre
> > > >
> > >
> > > Ah, born and raised on a sheep farm in Tarkastad... (about 90km from
> > > Queenstown)
> > >
> > > In Durban now with plans on the table in the garage....
> > >
> > > -c.
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>