Medal Winners: Air Traffic Control Tapes

[Montblack]

From today's AvWeb: NATCA Honors Its Best
Archie League Medal Safety: Air Traffic Control Tapes

http://www.natca.org/mediacenter/ALTapes.msp

Great Lakes Region:
Cirrus in trouble after switching off autopilot. Hmm?

Eastern Region:
Gear up catch by tower.

New England Region - Boston:
Pilot (Dad) possible stroke, possible CO poisoning. Daughter lands plane.

Souwthwest Region:
Lifeguard Flight. 24 hour old baby - crashing. Radio coordination
w/hospital.

Western Pacific Region:
Traffic call to avoid collision.


Montblack

[Jay Honeck]

> New England Region - Boston:
> Pilot (Dad) possible stroke, possible CO poisoning. Daughter lands plane.

That one is spooky First the dad, then the mom become unresponsive?

If it was CO poisoning, how come the daughter wasn't affected?
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Newps]

Montblack wrote:

>
> Eastern Region:
> Gear up catch by tower.

Geez. We'd catch a dozen gear ups every year when I was at GFK.

[Robert M. Gary]

> Geez. We'd catch a dozen gear ups every year when I was at GFK.

Perhaps that's why these controllers won their award. They didn't just
watch it, they did something about it.

-Robert

[Malcolm]

Age, along with fitness, are two of a number of factors in CO2
poisoining. Older you get, the less tolerance you have, all other
things being equal. It has to do with the body's ability to handle low
O2 conditions.

-Malcolm Teas

[Peter R.]

Jay Honeck > wrote:

>> New England Region - Boston:
>> Pilot (Dad) possible stroke, possible CO poisoning. Daughter lands plane.
>
> That one is spooky First the dad, then the mom become unresponsive?
>
> If it was CO poisoning, how come the daughter wasn't affected?

I thought I recall that the problem in this case was not CO poisoning. The
father was stricken by a stroke and the mother was overcome by emotion and
lost consciousness.


--
Peter

[Peter R.]

Montblack > wrote:

> From today's AvWeb: NATCA Honors Its Best
> Archie League Medal Safety: Air Traffic Control Tapes
>
> http://www.natca.org/mediacenter/ALTapes.msp

Be interesting if they updated these more frequently.

--
Peter

[Peter R.]

"Peter R." > wrote:

> I thought I recall that the problem in this case was not CO poisoning.

I recall reading... that is.

--
Peter

[john smith]

> > From today's AvWeb: NATCA Honors Its Best
> > Archie League Medal Safety: Air Traffic Control Tapes
> > http://www.natca.org/mediacenter/ALTapes.msp

Hey, did you hear the one about the blonde Cirrus pilot? :-))

[Toks Desalu]

It got me curious.

I wonder if these events caused by malfunction or pilot's failure to follow
checklist.

"Robert M. Gary" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> > Geez. We'd catch a dozen gear ups every year when I was at GFK.
>
> Perhaps that's why these controllers won their award. They didn't just
> watch it, they did something about it.
>
> -Robert
>

[pbc76049]

Because kids usually have a higher Vo2Max than adults.
They have the ability to carry more O2 (more efficiently)
in their system and suffer degradation last If you need a minimum
pulse/ox number to remain concious and you have a more efficient
cardio/vascular system you stay concious the longest. That
might also explain why the youngest most fit miner was the only
survivor in the last mine cave in......

--
Have a great day

Scott
"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>> New England Region - Boston:
>> Pilot (Dad) possible stroke, possible CO poisoning. Daughter lands plane.
>
> That one is spooky First the dad, then the mom become unresponsive?
>
> If it was CO poisoning, how come the daughter wasn't affected?
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"
>

[Mark Hansen]

On 01/30/06 11:02, Jay Honeck wrote:
>> New England Region - Boston:
>> Pilot (Dad) possible stroke, possible CO poisoning. Daughter lands plane.
>
> That one is spooky First the dad, then the mom become unresponsive?
>
> If it was CO poisoning, how come the daughter wasn't affected?

Would this incident have made it into the NTSB database? If they did
an investigation, perhaps we can find out what the actual problem was?

--
Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Airplane
Cal Aggie Flying Farmers
Sacramento, CA

[Morgans]

"Newps" > wrote
>
> Geez. We'd catch a dozen gear ups every year when I was at GFK.

They catch a half dozen gear up, during the weeks at OSH! You would think
everyone was distracted, or something.
--
Jim in NC

[Tater Schuld]

"Morgans" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Newps" > wrote
>>
>> Geez. We'd catch a dozen gear ups every year when I was at GFK.
>
> They catch a half dozen gear up, during the weeks at OSH! You would think
> everyone was distracted, or something.
> --
> Jim in NC

must be pilots watching all the car accidents caused by drivers watching
allthe pilots with their gear up

[Robert M. Gary]

> I wonder if these events caused by malfunction or pilot's failure to follow checklist.

Certainly pilot failure. A mechnical issue would be caught by the pilot
99% of the time by the pilot when he noticed a gear unsafe light. There
are some very rare cases of gear not being down but indicating down but
that's not common. Its more likely a busy pilot not noticing. I've
heard tower call out gear up to pilots before. Usualy the pilots are
thankful but sometimes they are irritated.

-Robert

[vincent p. norris]

>Geez. We'd catch a dozen gear ups every year when I was at GFK.

It was standard practice at marine and navy towers, back when I was
in, for tower operators to add "check gerar down and locked" when
clearing a pilot to land.

Wouldn't it be helpful for civilian towers to do that?

Is the FAA concerned about liability issues?

vince norris

[Happy Dog]

Should be a medal for this:

Not long ago, Jon Bon Jovi's 707 skidded off the end of the runway at CYHM.
On the next flight, the pilots reported a serious problem with their
pitot-static system. They spent some time circling near CYYZ trying to sort
it out. They made a comment to the controller that it hadn't been a good
week. They added "I guess you heard about us"". She replied "Yes.
Slippery when wet." The controller then asked if they wished to declare.
They said they didn't. She replied "Living on a prayer." She told me she
couldn't remember any more JBJ songs after that.

moo


"vincent p. norris" > wrote in message
...
> >Geez. We'd catch a dozen gear ups every year when I was at GFK.
>
> It was standard practice at marine and navy towers, back when I was
> in, for tower operators to add "check gerar down and locked" when
> clearing a pilot to land.
>
> Wouldn't it be helpful for civilian towers to do that?
>
> Is the FAA concerned about liability issues?
>
> vince norris

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"vincent p. norris" > wrote in message
...
>
> It was standard practice at marine and navy towers, back when I was
> in, for tower operators to add "check gerar down and locked" when
> clearing a pilot to land.
>
> Wouldn't it be helpful for civilian towers to do that?
>

No, it just makes the controller sound like an idiot, telling all those
fixed-gear aircraft to check wheels down.

[Newps]

Toks Desalu wrote:
> It got me curious.
>
> I wonder if these events caused by malfunction or pilot's failure to follow
> checklist.

A lot were caused by the pilot or instructor pulling the breaker so they
didn't have to listen to the gear horn while they practiced stalls or
engine out procedures. We'd let them know on short final and everybody
was happy.

[Newps]

vincent p. norris wrote:

>>Geez. We'd catch a dozen gear ups every year when I was at GFK.
>
>
> It was standard practice at marine and navy towers, back when I was
> in, for tower operators to add "check gerar down and locked" when
> clearing a pilot to land.
>
> Wouldn't it be helpful for civilian towers to do that?

No, because it would be ignored. Like when you give a pilot a wind
check with his landing clearance and then 10 seconds later asks for a
wind check.


>
> Is the FAA concerned about liability issues?

Not when you land gear up. The FAA doesn't buy that one.

[Cy Galley]

Don't believe you have much of a case for CO 2 poisoning. It is CO that is
the poison!!!


--
Cy Galley
EAA Safety Programs Editor
Always looking for ideas and articles for EAA Sport Pilot
"Malcolm" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> Age, along with fitness, are two of a number of factors in CO2
> poisoining. Older you get, the less tolerance you have, all other
> things being equal. It has to do with the body's ability to handle low
> O2 conditions.
>
> -Malcolm Teas
>

[tjd]

> Wouldn't it be helpful for civilian towers to do that?

I had a civilian tower say "check wheels down" to me last Saturday.
This was only my second XC to a towered airport, so I had no idea what
they said. I asked my instructor and he told me, so I got a good
chuckle out of it since our gear was (hopefully) fixed - I looked out
the window to make sure it was still there... But, considering a
previous instructor of mine became my ex-instructor after a belly
landing, I guess a little reminder never hurt...

[Jeff Shirton]

"Cy Galley" > wrote in message
news:e%LDf.523226$084.293730@attbi_s22...

> Don't believe you have much of a case for CO 2 poisoning. It is CO that is
> the poison!!!

Apparently you never saw Apollo 13.

--
Jeff Shirton (2 Cor. 2:17) jshirton at cogeco dot
ca
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
Challenge me (Theophilus) for a game of chess at Chessworld.net!

[Jeff Shirton]

"B A R R Y" > wrote in message
...

>>> Don't believe you have much of a case for CO 2 poisoning.
>>> It is CO that is the poison!!!
>>
>>Apparently you never saw Apollo 13.
>
> I think what he's trying to imply is that CO poisons, CO2 simply
> displaces breathable air.

Carbon monoxide is poisonous.
Carbon dioxide is poisonous.

Indeed, the distinction you are trying to make doesn't apply,
since CO "simply displaces breathable air" in hemoglobin.

> Both can eventually kill you, but in different ways.

Yes, by *poisoning* you.

--
Jeff Shirton (2 Cor. 2:17) jshirton at cogeco dot
ca
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
Challenge me (Theophilus) for a game of chess at Chessworld.net!

[.Blueskies.]

"Montblack" > wrote in message ...
>
> Western Pacific Region:
> Traffic call to avoid collision.
>
>
> Montblack

Sounds like they had their head in the cockpit in VFR conditions - reminiscent of the PSA collision in San Diego...

[Tater Schuld]

"Jeff Shirton" > wrote in message
...
> "B A R R Y" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>>> Don't believe you have much of a case for CO 2 poisoning.
>>>> It is CO that is the poison!!!
>>>
>>>Apparently you never saw Apollo 13.
>>
>> I think what he's trying to imply is that CO poisons, CO2 simply
>> displaces breathable air.
>
> Carbon monoxide is poisonous.
> Carbon dioxide is poisonous.
>
> Indeed, the distinction you are trying to make doesn't apply,
> since CO "simply displaces breathable air" in hemoglobin.
>
>> Both can eventually kill you, but in different ways.
>
> Yes, by *poisoning* you.

be your definition, water is poisonous.

want to re-think your statement?

didn't think so

[Jeff Shirton]

"Tater Schuld" > wrote in message
...

>>> Both can eventually kill you, but in different ways.
>>
>> Yes, by *poisoning* you.
>
> be your definition, water is poisonous.

First of all, it's not my definition.

Second of all, *anything* is poisonous (by definition), if consumed
in high enough quantities.

For instance, that common poison called "arsenic" is found in your
body right now. It's a poison to be sure, but it simply isn't present
in toxic amounts.

> want to re-think your statement?

Of course not.
Why would I want to do that?

If you don't believe me, simply do a Google search of
"carbon dioxide" "poison", and see for yourself, or go to
your local library, if you don't believe me.

> didn't think so

I suggest that you might want to watch your attitude.

Like I said, you can either believe me or not, you can
either discover the facts for yourself, or not.

Just because you don't believe it, doesn't make it any less true.

Have a nice day.

--
Jeff Shirton (2 Cor. 2:17) jshirton at cogeco dot
ca
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
Challenge me (Theophilus) for a game of chess at Chessworld.net!

[Flyingmonk]

Cool... l listened to all four or five of them. Thanks for the link.

The Monk

[Roger]

On Tue, 31 Jan 2006 16:11:54 GMT, "Cy Galley" >
wrote:

>Don't believe you have much of a case for CO 2 poisoning. It is CO that is
>the poison!!!

Oh I don't know... How about in the bottom of a hole? One of the
things we check for is CO2 along with N2, neither of which are
considered poisonous and both can kill. I doubt either could be
considered a problem in an airplane with all the leaks. <:-))

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

[Roger]

On Tue, 31 Jan 2006 16:20:43 -0500, "Jeff Shirton"
> wrote:

>"B A R R Y" > wrote in message
...
>
>>>> Don't believe you have much of a case for CO 2 poisoning.
>>>> It is CO that is the poison!!!
>>>
>>>Apparently you never saw Apollo 13.
>>
>> I think what he's trying to imply is that CO poisons, CO2 simply
>> displaces breathable air.
>
>Carbon monoxide is poisonous.
>Carbon dioxide is poisonous.
>
>Indeed, the distinction you are trying to make doesn't apply,
>since CO "simply displaces breathable air" in hemoglobin.
>
>> Both can eventually kill you, but in different ways.
>
>Yes, by *poisoning* you.

No, CO2 does not poison you. Like the pillow over a head/face it can
cut off the air, but it is not a poison. It only mechanically
prevents you from breathing air with O2 in it. Remove the CO2 and you
can breath just fine...if you can still breathe. Remove the CO and
you still need treatment as the blood still will not cary O2.
A poison works chemically on the body in one way or another.

Fresh air and exercise are good for refreshing after CO2, but exercise
can kill after CO exposure.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

[Peter Duniho]

"Roger" > wrote in message
...
> No, CO2 does not poison you. Like the pillow over a head/face it can
> cut off the air, but it is not a poison. It only mechanically
> prevents you from breathing air with O2 in it.

Actually, it does more than that. The CO2 level in your blood affects your
breathing reflex, and while some elevation is what helps you know to take
another breath, too much can interfere with your breathing in other ways.

If anything, CO is more of a "mechanical blockage", because "all" it does is
bind to the blood cells, preventing them from carrying O2. CO2 actually
messes with your body's natural breathing control.

I wouldn't really call either a "poison", but it seems to me that the words
has been used pretty loosely by everyone involved in this thread.
Nit-picking about whether either CO or CO2 seems fruitless.

Pete

[Stubby]

Roger wrote:
> On Tue, 31 Jan 2006 16:20:43 -0500, "Jeff Shirton"
> > wrote:
>
>> "B A R R Y" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>
>>>>> Don't believe you have much of a case for CO 2 poisoning.
>>>>> It is CO that is the poison!!!
>>>> Apparently you never saw Apollo 13.
>>> I think what he's trying to imply is that CO poisons, CO2 simply
>>> displaces breathable air.
>> Carbon monoxide is poisonous.
>> Carbon dioxide is poisonous.
>>
>> Indeed, the distinction you are trying to make doesn't apply,
>> since CO "simply displaces breathable air" in hemoglobin.
>>
>>> Both can eventually kill you, but in different ways.
>> Yes, by *poisoning* you.
>
> No, CO2 does not poison you. Like the pillow over a head/face it can
> cut off the air, but it is not a poison. It only mechanically
> prevents you from breathing air with O2 in it. Remove the CO2 and you
> can breath just fine...if you can still breathe. Remove the CO and
> you still need treatment as the blood still will not cary O2.
> A poison works chemically on the body in one way or another.
>
> Fresh air and exercise are good for refreshing after CO2, but exercise
> can kill after CO exposure.
>
> Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
> (N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
> www.rogerhalstead.com

IIRC CO complexes the hemoglobin leading to a clot. The damage is not
reversible but after a lot of time in fresh air the body will clear out
the damaged hemoglobin. That's much different than CO2.

[John T]

"Jeff Shirton" > wrote in message

>
>
> If you don't believe me, simply do a Google search of
> "carbon dioxide" "poison", and see for yourself...

OK. From that Google search:

http://www-formal.stanford.edu/jmc/progress/co2.html
"Carbon monoxide CO, unlike CO2, is a bad poison. ... Carbon monoxide binds
very strongly to the iron in the hemoglobin in the blood. ... Because carbon
monoxide binds to hemoglobin so strongly, you can be poisoned by carbon
monoxide even at very low concentrations..."

http://www.factmonster.com/ce6/sci/A0810371.html
"It [carbon dioxide] does not burn, and under normal conditions it is
stable, inert and nontoxic. ... Although it [carbon dioxide] is not a
poison, it can cause death by suffocation if inhaled in large amounts."

http://www.prn2.usm.my/mainsite/bulletin/nst/1995/nst13.html
"Chemical asphyxiants - Carbon monoxide, hydrogen, cyanide, nitrites,
hydrogen sulphides. ... Simple asphyxiants are physiolocigal inert. ...
Victims exposed to them will suffer from lack of oxygen. Carbon dioxide and
methane are classic examples of simple asphyxiant. Chemical asphyxiants, on
the other hand, interfere with the body's ability to utilise oxygen, They
either prevent oxygen delivery (such as carbon monoxide and hydrogen
sulphide)..."

There are many others saying that CO is a poison while CO2 is not.

--
John T
http://tknowlogy.com/TknoFlyer
Reduce spam. Use Sender Policy Framework: http://spf.pobox.com
____________________

[Bryan Martin]

Try searching on the terms "carbon dioxide poisoning" and
"Hypercapnia" instaid. CO2 is toxic but is nowhere near as toxic as CO.
CO2 can act as a simple asphyxiant and kill by displacing oxygen or it
can kill from its toxic effects. It's much more likely to kill by
asphyxiation. It generally takes some unusual circumstances to
encounter its toxic effects and it takes a fair amount of time for
these effects to become dangerous. This is probably why it's not
usually considered a poison, usually it will suffocate you long before
it can poison you. CO will nearly always kill from its toxic effects
rather than simple asphyxiation because there is rarely enough of it
around to displace much oxygen in the atmosphere. CO2 poisoning is
usually only a concern if you are breathing a canned atmosphere with
plenty of oxygen but no way to get rid of the CO2.

[Stealth Pilot]

On 2 Feb 2006 05:06:53 -0800, "Bryan Martin" >
wrote:

>Try searching on the terms "carbon dioxide poisoning" and
>"Hypercapnia" instaid. CO2 is toxic but is nowhere near as toxic as CO.
>CO2 can act as a simple asphyxiant and kill by displacing oxygen or it
>can kill from its toxic effects. It's much more likely to kill by
>asphyxiation. It generally takes some unusual circumstances to
>encounter its toxic effects and it takes a fair amount of time for
>these effects to become dangerous. This is probably why it's not
>usually considered a poison, usually it will suffocate you long before
>it can poison you. CO will nearly always kill from its toxic effects
>rather than simple asphyxiation because there is rarely enough of it
>around to displace much oxygen in the atmosphere. CO2 poisoning is
>usually only a concern if you are breathing a canned atmosphere with
>plenty of oxygen but no way to get rid of the CO2.

carbon monoxide is about 210 times as active in binding with
hemoglobin as oxygen. carbon monoxide can react out all of your
hemoglobin so that no oxygen transport occurs and you die of
asphyxiation. (only about 10% of oxygen dissolves in plasma and that
isnt enough to keep you alive)

carbon dioxide in the blood forms carbonic acid and can alter the
blood pH enough to denature enzyme reactions in the body.
(a lot of the enzymes are curled up long molecules that are only
chemically active when certain parts of molecular loops are in near
proximity. when denatured through pH or temperature they straighten
out and the chemical processes they are involved with simply stop.)

Stealth pilot

[JJS]

"Stealth Pilot" > wrote in message ...
snip
>
> carbon dioxide in the blood forms carbonic acid and can alter the
> blood pH enough to denature enzyme reactions in the body.
> (a lot of the enzymes are curled up long molecules that are only
> chemically active when certain parts of molecular loops are in near
> proximity. when denatured through pH or temperature they straighten
> out and the chemical processes they are involved with simply stop.)
>
> Stealth pilot
>
I knew about the carbonic acid and the pH. I wasn't sure of the damage mechanism though. Very interesting. Thanks,
Stealth.

Joe Schneider
8437R



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[Greg Esres]

<<It is CO that is the poison!!! >>

Read somewhere that there are no toxic substances, only toxic
quantities.