Medal Winners: Air Traffic Control Tapes

[Montblack]

From today's AvWeb: NATCA Honors Its Best
Archie League Medal Safety: Air Traffic Control Tapes

http://www.natca.org/mediacenter/ALTapes.msp

Great Lakes Region:
Cirrus in trouble after switching off autopilot. Hmm?

Eastern Region:
Gear up catch by tower.

New England Region - Boston:
Pilot (Dad) possible stroke, possible CO poisoning. Daughter lands plane.

Souwthwest Region:
Lifeguard Flight. 24 hour old baby - crashing. Radio coordination
w/hospital.

Western Pacific Region:
Traffic call to avoid collision.


Montblack

[Jay Honeck]

> New England Region - Boston:
> Pilot (Dad) possible stroke, possible CO poisoning. Daughter lands plane.

That one is spooky First the dad, then the mom become unresponsive?

If it was CO poisoning, how come the daughter wasn't affected?
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Newps]

Montblack wrote:

>
> Eastern Region:
> Gear up catch by tower.

Geez. We'd catch a dozen gear ups every year when I was at GFK.

[Robert M. Gary]

> Geez. We'd catch a dozen gear ups every year when I was at GFK.

Perhaps that's why these controllers won their award. They didn't just
watch it, they did something about it.

-Robert

[Malcolm]

Age, along with fitness, are two of a number of factors in CO2
poisoining. Older you get, the less tolerance you have, all other
things being equal. It has to do with the body's ability to handle low
O2 conditions.

-Malcolm Teas

[Peter R.]

Jay Honeck > wrote:

>> New England Region - Boston:
>> Pilot (Dad) possible stroke, possible CO poisoning. Daughter lands plane.
>
> That one is spooky First the dad, then the mom become unresponsive?
>
> If it was CO poisoning, how come the daughter wasn't affected?

I thought I recall that the problem in this case was not CO poisoning. The
father was stricken by a stroke and the mother was overcome by emotion and
lost consciousness.


--
Peter

[Peter R.]

Montblack > wrote:

> From today's AvWeb: NATCA Honors Its Best
> Archie League Medal Safety: Air Traffic Control Tapes
>
> http://www.natca.org/mediacenter/ALTapes.msp

Be interesting if they updated these more frequently.

--
Peter

[Peter R.]

"Peter R." > wrote:

> I thought I recall that the problem in this case was not CO poisoning.

I recall reading... that is.

--
Peter

[john smith]

> > From today's AvWeb: NATCA Honors Its Best
> > Archie League Medal Safety: Air Traffic Control Tapes
> > http://www.natca.org/mediacenter/ALTapes.msp

Hey, did you hear the one about the blonde Cirrus pilot? :-))

[Toks Desalu]

It got me curious.

I wonder if these events caused by malfunction or pilot's failure to follow
checklist.

"Robert M. Gary" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> > Geez. We'd catch a dozen gear ups every year when I was at GFK.
>
> Perhaps that's why these controllers won their award. They didn't just
> watch it, they did something about it.
>
> -Robert
>

[pbc76049]

Because kids usually have a higher Vo2Max than adults.
They have the ability to carry more O2 (more efficiently)
in their system and suffer degradation last If you need a minimum
pulse/ox number to remain concious and you have a more efficient
cardio/vascular system you stay concious the longest. That
might also explain why the youngest most fit miner was the only
survivor in the last mine cave in......

--
Have a great day

Scott
"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>> New England Region - Boston:
>> Pilot (Dad) possible stroke, possible CO poisoning. Daughter lands plane.
>
> That one is spooky First the dad, then the mom become unresponsive?
>
> If it was CO poisoning, how come the daughter wasn't affected?
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"
>

[Mark Hansen]

On 01/30/06 11:02, Jay Honeck wrote:
>> New England Region - Boston:
>> Pilot (Dad) possible stroke, possible CO poisoning. Daughter lands plane.
>
> That one is spooky First the dad, then the mom become unresponsive?
>
> If it was CO poisoning, how come the daughter wasn't affected?

Would this incident have made it into the NTSB database? If they did
an investigation, perhaps we can find out what the actual problem was?

--
Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Airplane
Cal Aggie Flying Farmers
Sacramento, CA

[Morgans]

"Newps" > wrote
>
> Geez. We'd catch a dozen gear ups every year when I was at GFK.

They catch a half dozen gear up, during the weeks at OSH! You would think
everyone was distracted, or something.
--
Jim in NC

[Tater Schuld]

"Morgans" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Newps" > wrote
>>
>> Geez. We'd catch a dozen gear ups every year when I was at GFK.
>
> They catch a half dozen gear up, during the weeks at OSH! You would think
> everyone was distracted, or something.
> --
> Jim in NC

must be pilots watching all the car accidents caused by drivers watching
allthe pilots with their gear up

[Robert M. Gary]

> I wonder if these events caused by malfunction or pilot's failure to follow checklist.

Certainly pilot failure. A mechnical issue would be caught by the pilot
99% of the time by the pilot when he noticed a gear unsafe light. There
are some very rare cases of gear not being down but indicating down but
that's not common. Its more likely a busy pilot not noticing. I've
heard tower call out gear up to pilots before. Usualy the pilots are
thankful but sometimes they are irritated.

-Robert

[vincent p. norris]

>Geez. We'd catch a dozen gear ups every year when I was at GFK.

It was standard practice at marine and navy towers, back when I was
in, for tower operators to add "check gerar down and locked" when
clearing a pilot to land.

Wouldn't it be helpful for civilian towers to do that?

Is the FAA concerned about liability issues?

vince norris

[Happy Dog]

Should be a medal for this:

Not long ago, Jon Bon Jovi's 707 skidded off the end of the runway at CYHM.
On the next flight, the pilots reported a serious problem with their
pitot-static system. They spent some time circling near CYYZ trying to sort
it out. They made a comment to the controller that it hadn't been a good
week. They added "I guess you heard about us"". She replied "Yes.
Slippery when wet." The controller then asked if they wished to declare.
They said they didn't. She replied "Living on a prayer." She told me she
couldn't remember any more JBJ songs after that.

moo


"vincent p. norris" > wrote in message
...
> >Geez. We'd catch a dozen gear ups every year when I was at GFK.
>
> It was standard practice at marine and navy towers, back when I was
> in, for tower operators to add "check gerar down and locked" when
> clearing a pilot to land.
>
> Wouldn't it be helpful for civilian towers to do that?
>
> Is the FAA concerned about liability issues?
>
> vince norris

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"vincent p. norris" > wrote in message
...
>
> It was standard practice at marine and navy towers, back when I was
> in, for tower operators to add "check gerar down and locked" when
> clearing a pilot to land.
>
> Wouldn't it be helpful for civilian towers to do that?
>

No, it just makes the controller sound like an idiot, telling all those
fixed-gear aircraft to check wheels down.

[Newps]

Toks Desalu wrote:
> It got me curious.
>
> I wonder if these events caused by malfunction or pilot's failure to follow
> checklist.

A lot were caused by the pilot or instructor pulling the breaker so they
didn't have to listen to the gear horn while they practiced stalls or
engine out procedures. We'd let them know on short final and everybody
was happy.

[Newps]

vincent p. norris wrote:

>>Geez. We'd catch a dozen gear ups every year when I was at GFK.
>
>
> It was standard practice at marine and navy towers, back when I was
> in, for tower operators to add "check gerar down and locked" when
> clearing a pilot to land.
>
> Wouldn't it be helpful for civilian towers to do that?

No, because it would be ignored. Like when you give a pilot a wind
check with his landing clearance and then 10 seconds later asks for a
wind check.


>
> Is the FAA concerned about liability issues?

Not when you land gear up. The FAA doesn't buy that one.

[Cy Galley]

Don't believe you have much of a case for CO 2 poisoning. It is CO that is
the poison!!!


--
Cy Galley
EAA Safety Programs Editor
Always looking for ideas and articles for EAA Sport Pilot
"Malcolm" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> Age, along with fitness, are two of a number of factors in CO2
> poisoining. Older you get, the less tolerance you have, all other
> things being equal. It has to do with the body's ability to handle low
> O2 conditions.
>
> -Malcolm Teas
>

[tjd]

> Wouldn't it be helpful for civilian towers to do that?

I had a civilian tower say "check wheels down" to me last Saturday.
This was only my second XC to a towered airport, so I had no idea what
they said. I asked my instructor and he told me, so I got a good
chuckle out of it since our gear was (hopefully) fixed - I looked out
the window to make sure it was still there... But, considering a
previous instructor of mine became my ex-instructor after a belly
landing, I guess a little reminder never hurt...

[Jeff Shirton]

"Cy Galley" > wrote in message
news:e%LDf.523226$084.293730@attbi_s22...

> Don't believe you have much of a case for CO 2 poisoning. It is CO that is
> the poison!!!

Apparently you never saw Apollo 13.

--
Jeff Shirton (2 Cor. 2:17) jshirton at cogeco dot
ca
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
Challenge me (Theophilus) for a game of chess at Chessworld.net!

[Jeff Shirton]

"B A R R Y" > wrote in message
...

>>> Don't believe you have much of a case for CO 2 poisoning.
>>> It is CO that is the poison!!!
>>
>>Apparently you never saw Apollo 13.
>
> I think what he's trying to imply is that CO poisons, CO2 simply
> displaces breathable air.

Carbon monoxide is poisonous.
Carbon dioxide is poisonous.

Indeed, the distinction you are trying to make doesn't apply,
since CO "simply displaces breathable air" in hemoglobin.

> Both can eventually kill you, but in different ways.

Yes, by *poisoning* you.

--
Jeff Shirton (2 Cor. 2:17) jshirton at cogeco dot
ca
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
Challenge me (Theophilus) for a game of chess at Chessworld.net!

[.Blueskies.]

"Montblack" > wrote in message ...
>
> Western Pacific Region:
> Traffic call to avoid collision.
>
>
> Montblack

Sounds like they had their head in the cockpit in VFR conditions - reminiscent of the PSA collision in San Diego...

[Tater Schuld]

"Jeff Shirton" > wrote in message
...
> "B A R R Y" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>>> Don't believe you have much of a case for CO 2 poisoning.
>>>> It is CO that is the poison!!!
>>>
>>>Apparently you never saw Apollo 13.
>>
>> I think what he's trying to imply is that CO poisons, CO2 simply
>> displaces breathable air.
>
> Carbon monoxide is poisonous.
> Carbon dioxide is poisonous.
>
> Indeed, the distinction you are trying to make doesn't apply,
> since CO "simply displaces breathable air" in hemoglobin.
>
>> Both can eventually kill you, but in different ways.
>
> Yes, by *poisoning* you.

be your definition, water is poisonous.

want to re-think your statement?

didn't think so

[Jeff Shirton]

"Tater Schuld" > wrote in message
...

>>> Both can eventually kill you, but in different ways.
>>
>> Yes, by *poisoning* you.
>
> be your definition, water is poisonous.

First of all, it's not my definition.

Second of all, *anything* is poisonous (by definition), if consumed
in high enough quantities.

For instance, that common poison called "arsenic" is found in your
body right now. It's a poison to be sure, but it simply isn't present
in toxic amounts.

> want to re-think your statement?

Of course not.
Why would I want to do that?

If you don't believe me, simply do a Google search of
"carbon dioxide" "poison", and see for yourself, or go to
your local library, if you don't believe me.

> didn't think so

I suggest that you might want to watch your attitude.

Like I said, you can either believe me or not, you can
either discover the facts for yourself, or not.

Just because you don't believe it, doesn't make it any less true.

Have a nice day.

--
Jeff Shirton (2 Cor. 2:17) jshirton at cogeco dot
ca
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
Challenge me (Theophilus) for a game of chess at Chessworld.net!

[Marc J. Zeitlin]

T o d d P a t t i s t wrote:

> ..... An excess of CO2 will not kill you.

Actually, Todd, that's not true. At Sea Level, even if the O2 content
stays at the standard 20%, an excess of CO2 can be harmful and/or fatal.
The ambient CO2 level is 0.03%. Anything under 1.5% will be pretty much
un-noticeable, but as you get above 3% - 5%, headaches, nausea, and
other symptoms will start. IIRC, as you start getting above 9-10%, you
get into fatal levels. This is all with 20% O2 levels.

NASA has published some interesting studies (got the refs at work, not
here at home) regarding CO2 levels.

>.... An absence of oxygen will kill you, but that's
> not the fault of the CO2.

No, but an excess of CO2 will do the same.

>.... OTOH, CO *will* kill you , even
> if everything else you need to sustain life is there.

Also true.

--
Marc J. Zeitlin
http://www.cozybuilders.org/
Copyright (c) 2006

[Flyingmonk]

Cool... l listened to all four or five of them. Thanks for the link.

The Monk

[Roger]

On Tue, 31 Jan 2006 16:11:54 GMT, "Cy Galley" >
wrote:

>Don't believe you have much of a case for CO 2 poisoning. It is CO that is
>the poison!!!

Oh I don't know... How about in the bottom of a hole? One of the
things we check for is CO2 along with N2, neither of which are
considered poisonous and both can kill. I doubt either could be
considered a problem in an airplane with all the leaks. <:-))

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

[Roger]

On Tue, 31 Jan 2006 16:20:43 -0500, "Jeff Shirton"
> wrote:

>"B A R R Y" > wrote in message
...
>
>>>> Don't believe you have much of a case for CO 2 poisoning.
>>>> It is CO that is the poison!!!
>>>
>>>Apparently you never saw Apollo 13.
>>
>> I think what he's trying to imply is that CO poisons, CO2 simply
>> displaces breathable air.
>
>Carbon monoxide is poisonous.
>Carbon dioxide is poisonous.
>
>Indeed, the distinction you are trying to make doesn't apply,
>since CO "simply displaces breathable air" in hemoglobin.
>
>> Both can eventually kill you, but in different ways.
>
>Yes, by *poisoning* you.

No, CO2 does not poison you. Like the pillow over a head/face it can
cut off the air, but it is not a poison. It only mechanically
prevents you from breathing air with O2 in it. Remove the CO2 and you
can breath just fine...if you can still breathe. Remove the CO and
you still need treatment as the blood still will not cary O2.
A poison works chemically on the body in one way or another.

Fresh air and exercise are good for refreshing after CO2, but exercise
can kill after CO exposure.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

[kd5sak]

"T o d d P a t t i s t" > wrote in message
...
> "Marc J. Zeitlin" > wrote:
>
>>> ..... An excess of CO2 will not kill you.
>>
>>Actually, Todd, that's not true.
>
> You're right, I was wrong. I was thinking of nitrogen
> excluding oxygen (been playing with lots of liquid nitrogen
> recently and had N2 on my mind.
> --
> T o d d P a t t i s t
> (Remove DONTSPAMME from address to email reply.)

I think nitrogen and carbon dioxide are both heavier than air ( that is,
they will pool in low areas) A sufficient excess of either can suffocate
you. You can wind up drowning without getting wet. As a matter of fact, I
saw a cable channel episode recently describing the loss of a few buffalo in
a small valley in Yellowstone Park from such an emission near one of the
active geyser areas. That incident probably involved a mix of volcanic gases
rather than just CO2 but no one knows for sure, since it was a transient
unmonitored event.

Harold Burton

[Bryan Martin]

The molecular weight of N2 is 28 compared to 32 for O2 so pure N2 is
slightly lighter than air, but not enough to make a difference. CO2
(mw=44) is significantly heavier than air and can pool in low lying
areas. The bigger problem is, if a large amount of N2 (or CO2) is
rapidly released in an open area, it will displace the air and reduce
the amount of oxygen in that area and cause suffocation.

Releasing N2 in a sealed space will simply increase the pressure in the
room and cause no particular breathing problems because the room will
still have enough oxygen in it to breath. You won't have a problem
until the pressure gets high enough for the toxic effects of N2 to show
up (nitrogen narcosis). This takes several atmospheres of pressure.

Releasing CO2 in a sealed space will start causing breathing problems
as soon as the CO2 pressure in the room reaches about 3/4 psi, even
though the same amount of oxygen is available for breathing. A CO2
partial pressure of more than 1 1/2 psi is considered lethal.

kd5sak wrote:
> I think nitrogen and carbon dioxide are both heavier than air ( that is,
> they will pool in low areas) A sufficient excess of either can suffocate
> you. You can wind up drowning without getting wet. As a matter of fact, I
> saw a cable channel episode recently describing the loss of a few buffalo in
> a small valley in Yellowstone Park from such an emission near one of the
> active geyser areas. That incident probably involved a mix of volcanic gases
> rather than just CO2 but no one knows for sure, since it was a transient
> unmonitored event.
>
> Harold Burton

[Montblack]

("kd5sak" wrote)
> I think nitrogen and carbon dioxide are both heavier than air ( that is,
> they will pool in low areas) A sufficient excess of either can suffocate
> you. You can wind up drowning without getting wet. As a matter of fact, I
> saw a cable channel episode recently describing the loss of a few buffalo
> in a small valley in Yellowstone Park from such an emission near one of
> the active geyser areas. That incident probably involved a mix of volcanic
> gases rather than just CO2 but no one knows for sure, since it was a
> transient unmonitored event.


PBS - Savage Planet: Degassing Lake Nyos

http://www.pbs.org/wnet/savageplanet/01volcano/01/indexmid.html

"Some 1,700 people living in the valley below Lake Nyos in northwestern
Cameroon mysteriously died on the evening of August 26, 1986. Word of the
disaster spread, and scientists arrived from around the world. What they
discovered was that the crater lake, perched inside a dormant volcano, had
become laden with carbon dioxide gas. This gas had suddenly bubbled out of
the lake and asphyxiated nearly every living being in the surrounding valley
community."


Montblack

[Peter Duniho]

"Roger" > wrote in message
...
> No, CO2 does not poison you. Like the pillow over a head/face it can
> cut off the air, but it is not a poison. It only mechanically
> prevents you from breathing air with O2 in it.

Actually, it does more than that. The CO2 level in your blood affects your
breathing reflex, and while some elevation is what helps you know to take
another breath, too much can interfere with your breathing in other ways.

If anything, CO is more of a "mechanical blockage", because "all" it does is
bind to the blood cells, preventing them from carrying O2. CO2 actually
messes with your body's natural breathing control.

I wouldn't really call either a "poison", but it seems to me that the words
has been used pretty loosely by everyone involved in this thread.
Nit-picking about whether either CO or CO2 seems fruitless.

Pete

[Stubby]

Roger wrote:
> On Tue, 31 Jan 2006 16:20:43 -0500, "Jeff Shirton"
> > wrote:
>
>> "B A R R Y" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>
>>>>> Don't believe you have much of a case for CO 2 poisoning.
>>>>> It is CO that is the poison!!!
>>>> Apparently you never saw Apollo 13.
>>> I think what he's trying to imply is that CO poisons, CO2 simply
>>> displaces breathable air.
>> Carbon monoxide is poisonous.
>> Carbon dioxide is poisonous.
>>
>> Indeed, the distinction you are trying to make doesn't apply,
>> since CO "simply displaces breathable air" in hemoglobin.
>>
>>> Both can eventually kill you, but in different ways.
>> Yes, by *poisoning* you.
>
> No, CO2 does not poison you. Like the pillow over a head/face it can
> cut off the air, but it is not a poison. It only mechanically
> prevents you from breathing air with O2 in it. Remove the CO2 and you
> can breath just fine...if you can still breathe. Remove the CO and
> you still need treatment as the blood still will not cary O2.
> A poison works chemically on the body in one way or another.
>
> Fresh air and exercise are good for refreshing after CO2, but exercise
> can kill after CO exposure.
>
> Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
> (N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
> www.rogerhalstead.com

IIRC CO complexes the hemoglobin leading to a clot. The damage is not
reversible but after a lot of time in fresh air the body will clear out
the damaged hemoglobin. That's much different than CO2.

[John T]

"Jeff Shirton" > wrote in message

>
>
> If you don't believe me, simply do a Google search of
> "carbon dioxide" "poison", and see for yourself...

OK. From that Google search:

http://www-formal.stanford.edu/jmc/progress/co2.html
"Carbon monoxide CO, unlike CO2, is a bad poison. ... Carbon monoxide binds
very strongly to the iron in the hemoglobin in the blood. ... Because carbon
monoxide binds to hemoglobin so strongly, you can be poisoned by carbon
monoxide even at very low concentrations..."

http://www.factmonster.com/ce6/sci/A0810371.html
"It [carbon dioxide] does not burn, and under normal conditions it is
stable, inert and nontoxic. ... Although it [carbon dioxide] is not a
poison, it can cause death by suffocation if inhaled in large amounts."

http://www.prn2.usm.my/mainsite/bulletin/nst/1995/nst13.html
"Chemical asphyxiants - Carbon monoxide, hydrogen, cyanide, nitrites,
hydrogen sulphides. ... Simple asphyxiants are physiolocigal inert. ...
Victims exposed to them will suffer from lack of oxygen. Carbon dioxide and
methane are classic examples of simple asphyxiant. Chemical asphyxiants, on
the other hand, interfere with the body's ability to utilise oxygen, They
either prevent oxygen delivery (such as carbon monoxide and hydrogen
sulphide)..."

There are many others saying that CO is a poison while CO2 is not.

--
John T
http://tknowlogy.com/TknoFlyer
Reduce spam. Use Sender Policy Framework: http://spf.pobox.com
____________________

[JJS]

"Bryan Martin" > wrote in message
oups.com...
snip
>
> Releasing N2 in a sealed space will simply increase the pressure in the
> room and cause no particular breathing problems because the room will
> still have enough oxygen in it to breath. You won't have a problem
> until the pressure gets high enough for the toxic effects of N2 to show
> up (nitrogen narcosis). This takes several atmospheres of pressure.
>
Although part of what you say is true, I disagree with the above paragraph. In particular the part insinuating that
the nitrogen has to be pressurized to be toxic. I had a job related experience in which a contractor working under
supplied breathing air respirator had a near fatal incident. The catalyst vessel he was working in was under
nitrogen atmosphere to prevent the catalyst from going pyrophoric. There was no pressure on the vessel and the
manway was open. He removed is mask to spit, then inhaled before putting it back on. Instead of passing out, he
instantly went into violent convulsions and dropped the mask. Even with an attendant equipped with a radio, and a
tripod, winch, and lanyard already set up and attached we only got him out of the vessel alive by the grace of God.
If you can imagine trying to winch a grown man straight up 20' and pull him through a 18" manway while he flails
wildly about with superhuman strength ... you can imagine the dilemma we were in. He seemingly had a sole
determination to knock every ERT member off of a forty foot high vessel once we squeezed him through. By the time we
got him restrained and an oxygen mask on him that he couldn't rip off... well to a man, we thought at best he would
suffer brain damage. He did eventually recover but it was over a period of months. I personally know of two others,
(one an ex-co-worker), who were put in the hospital by breathing nitrogen. It isn't something to mess with. I agree
with those who state that CO messes with the Hemoglobin. We suffered one CO fatality when a technician went into a
small analyzer shack to calibrate a mass spectrometer. One of the flow gauges to the machine had an o-ring leak. He
apparently started feeling bad, and sat down in a chair. He didn't show up at lunch and the guys just thought he
drove into town for dinner. When he didn't show up for afternoon break, his co-worker went looking... way to late.
CO2 is a byproduct of our synthesis process and although it may not be a poison in the strictest sense, it will kill
you just as dead.

Joe Schneider
8437R



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[Bryan Martin]

Were there any chemical fumes in that tank he might have inhaled along
with the nitrogen?

JJS wrote:
> "Bryan Martin" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
> snip
> >
> > Releasing N2 in a sealed space will simply increase the pressure in the
> > room and cause no particular breathing problems because the room will
> > still have enough oxygen in it to breath. You won't have a problem
> > until the pressure gets high enough for the toxic effects of N2 to show
> > up (nitrogen narcosis). This takes several atmospheres of pressure.
> >
> Although part of what you say is true, I disagree with the above paragraph. In particular the part insinuating that
> the nitrogen has to be pressurized to be toxic. I had a job related experience in which a contractor working under
> supplied breathing air respirator had a near fatal incident. The catalyst vessel he was working in was under
> nitrogen atmosphere to prevent the catalyst from going pyrophoric. There was no pressure on the vessel and the
>
> Joe Schneider
> 8437R
>

[Bryan Martin]

Try searching on the terms "carbon dioxide poisoning" and
"Hypercapnia" instaid. CO2 is toxic but is nowhere near as toxic as CO.
CO2 can act as a simple asphyxiant and kill by displacing oxygen or it
can kill from its toxic effects. It's much more likely to kill by
asphyxiation. It generally takes some unusual circumstances to
encounter its toxic effects and it takes a fair amount of time for
these effects to become dangerous. This is probably why it's not
usually considered a poison, usually it will suffocate you long before
it can poison you. CO will nearly always kill from its toxic effects
rather than simple asphyxiation because there is rarely enough of it
around to displace much oxygen in the atmosphere. CO2 poisoning is
usually only a concern if you are breathing a canned atmosphere with
plenty of oxygen but no way to get rid of the CO2.

[Stealth Pilot]

On 2 Feb 2006 05:06:53 -0800, "Bryan Martin" >
wrote:

>Try searching on the terms "carbon dioxide poisoning" and
>"Hypercapnia" instaid. CO2 is toxic but is nowhere near as toxic as CO.
>CO2 can act as a simple asphyxiant and kill by displacing oxygen or it
>can kill from its toxic effects. It's much more likely to kill by
>asphyxiation. It generally takes some unusual circumstances to
>encounter its toxic effects and it takes a fair amount of time for
>these effects to become dangerous. This is probably why it's not
>usually considered a poison, usually it will suffocate you long before
>it can poison you. CO will nearly always kill from its toxic effects
>rather than simple asphyxiation because there is rarely enough of it
>around to displace much oxygen in the atmosphere. CO2 poisoning is
>usually only a concern if you are breathing a canned atmosphere with
>plenty of oxygen but no way to get rid of the CO2.

carbon monoxide is about 210 times as active in binding with
hemoglobin as oxygen. carbon monoxide can react out all of your
hemoglobin so that no oxygen transport occurs and you die of
asphyxiation. (only about 10% of oxygen dissolves in plasma and that
isnt enough to keep you alive)

carbon dioxide in the blood forms carbonic acid and can alter the
blood pH enough to denature enzyme reactions in the body.
(a lot of the enzymes are curled up long molecules that are only
chemically active when certain parts of molecular loops are in near
proximity. when denatured through pH or temperature they straighten
out and the chemical processes they are involved with simply stop.)

Stealth pilot

[JJS]

"Bryan Martin" > wrote in message ups.com...
> Were there any chemical fumes in that tank he might have inhaled along
> with the nitrogen?
>

No. The vessel had been pressure purged with nitrogen for the job before it was opened.



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[JJS]

"Stealth Pilot" > wrote in message ...
snip
>
> carbon dioxide in the blood forms carbonic acid and can alter the
> blood pH enough to denature enzyme reactions in the body.
> (a lot of the enzymes are curled up long molecules that are only
> chemically active when certain parts of molecular loops are in near
> proximity. when denatured through pH or temperature they straighten
> out and the chemical processes they are involved with simply stop.)
>
> Stealth pilot
>
I knew about the carbonic acid and the pH. I wasn't sure of the damage mechanism though. Very interesting. Thanks,
Stealth.

Joe Schneider
8437R



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[Roger]

On 2 Feb 2006 04:08:50 -0800, "Bryan Martin" >
wrote:

>Were there any chemical fumes in that tank he might have inhaled along
>with the nitrogen?
>
>JJS wrote:
>> "Bryan Martin" > wrote in message
>> oups.com...
>> snip
>> >
>> > Releasing N2 in a sealed space will simply increase the pressure in the
>> > room and cause no particular breathing problems because the room will
>> > still have enough oxygen in it to breath. You won't have a problem

N2 will not mix unless there is air circulation. This is one of the
things we learned with vessel entry and permits. In industry, at least
in the states, a person is not allowed to enter a closed vessel,
container, or even hole in the ground much over waist deep without a
safety harness, rope to the outside world, and enough muscle on the
outside to pull them out should they become responsive.

Even when entering underground pump rooms we had to be tied to the
outside world unless there was forced ventilation and even then some
one had to be present on the outside.

>> > until the pressure gets high enough for the toxic effects of N2 to show
>> > up (nitrogen narcosis). This takes several atmospheres of pressure.
>> >
>> Although part of what you say is true, I disagree with the above paragraph. In particular the part insinuating that
>> the nitrogen has to be pressurized to be toxic. I had a job related experience in which a contractor working under
>> supplied breathing air respirator had a near fatal incident. The catalyst vessel he was working in was under
>> nitrogen atmosphere to prevent the catalyst from going pyrophoric. There was no pressure on the vessel and the

This completely misses the most dangerous aspect of N2 in a closed
space (vessel entry). Narcosis is not a problem at normal atmospheric
pressure. N2 will not mix with the air unless there is some form of
forced circulation. The N2 will displace the O2 and lighter gasses
causing the person suffocate. N2 gives no warning either.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com
>>
>> Joe Schneider
>> 8437R
>>

[Roger]

On Thu, 2 Feb 2006 19:40:38 -0600, "JJS" <jschneider@remove socks
cebridge.net> wrote:

>
>"Bryan Martin" > wrote in message ups.com...
>> Were there any chemical fumes in that tank he might have inhaled along
>> with the nitrogen?
>>
>
>No. The vessel had been pressure purged with nitrogen for the job before it was opened.

Then he committed a sin for which job termination is usually
proscribed at most companies now days. You never, ever enter a vessel
that has been N2 purged unless bringing your own breathing air by
tank or hose. He entered without checking the O2 level and almost
suffocated.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com
>
>
>
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[Morgans]

"Roger" > wrote

> Then he committed a sin for which job termination is usually
> proscribed at most companies now days. You never, ever enter a vessel
> that has been N2 purged unless bringing your own breathing air by
> tank or hose. He entered without checking the O2 level and almost
> suffocated.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
The first post about this said:

The catalyst vessel he was working in was under
nitrogen atmosphere to prevent the catalyst from going pyrophoric. There
was no pressure on the vessel and the
manway was open. He removed is mask to spit, then inhaled before putting it
back on. Instead of passing out, he
instantly went into violent convulsions and dropped the mask. Even with an
attendant equipped with a radio, and a
tripod, winch, and lanyard already set up and attached we only got him out
of the vessel alive by the grace of God.
--
Jim in NC

[Richard Lamb]

Morgans wrote:

>
> "Roger" > wrote
>
>> Then he committed a sin for which job termination is usually
>> proscribed at most companies now days. You never, ever enter a vessel
>> that has been N2 purged unless bringing your own breathing air by
>> tank or hose. He entered without checking the O2 level and almost
>> suffocated.
>
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> The first post about this said:
>
> The catalyst vessel he was working in was under
> nitrogen atmosphere to prevent the catalyst from going pyrophoric.
> There was no pressure on the vessel and the
> manway was open. He removed is mask to spit, then inhaled before
> putting it back on. Instead of passing out, he
> instantly went into violent convulsions and dropped the mask. Even with
> an attendant equipped with a radio, and a
> tripod, winch, and lanyard already set up and attached we only got him
> out of the vessel alive by the grace of God.

There HAD to be something else in the atmosphere, Jim.

N2 just doesn't do that (does it???)

Richard

[Drew Dalgleish]

On Fri, 03 Feb 2006 06:05:45 GMT, Richard Lamb
> wrote:

>Morgans wrote:
>
>>
>> "Roger" > wrote
>>
>>> Then he committed a sin for which job termination is usually
>>> proscribed at most companies now days. You never, ever enter a vessel
>>> that has been N2 purged unless bringing your own breathing air by
>>> tank or hose. He entered without checking the O2 level and almost
>>> suffocated.
>>
>> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>> The first post about this said:
>>
>> The catalyst vessel he was working in was under
>> nitrogen atmosphere to prevent the catalyst from going pyrophoric.
>> There was no pressure on the vessel and the
>> manway was open. He removed is mask to spit, then inhaled before
>> putting it back on. Instead of passing out, he
>> instantly went into violent convulsions and dropped the mask. Even with
>> an attendant equipped with a radio, and a
>> tripod, winch, and lanyard already set up and attached we only got him
>> out of the vessel alive by the grace of God.
>
>There HAD to be something else in the atmosphere, Jim.
>
>N2 just doesn't do that (does it???)
>
>Richard

N2 doesn't do anything except displace O2 Lack of O2 normally causes
the victim to just pass out almost instantly followed by convulsions
then the cessation of respiration. ( quoted directly from the ontario
mine rescue handbook)

[JJS]

"Roger" > wrote in message ...
> Then he committed a sin for which job termination is usually
> proscribed at most companies now days. You never, ever enter a vessel
> that has been N2 purged unless bringing your own breathing air by
> tank or hose. He entered without checking the O2 level and almost
> suffocated.
>
> Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
> (N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
> www.rogerhalstead.com

Roger, did you miss my post and just reply to the response that was snipped by Bryan Martin without him indicating he
did so?

It was I who filled out and signed the safe work and confined space entry permits. One of my direct reports took the
gas samples with a handheld gas meter. The confined space entry was done correctly per OSHA 1910.146 confined space
procedures. At my place of employment we have to make confined space entries on a routine basis.

An attendant was present. An Emergency Response Team was on standby. One thing though, there was no forced air
ventilation. He was using a supplied air respirator (air line mask) with a backup egress system. This was a
professional contract company that does IDLH confined space entries for catalyst work as their sole source of income.
Forced air ventilation will not make a "confined space" a "non-confined space" per OSHA. Ability to egress is a
consideration unto itself. There are permit required and non-permit required confined spaces. (I never liked that
terminology as they both require permits). IDLH atmospheres are permit required.

Roger, I've been reading your posts here for years and you have my respect. It seems as we both have some job
related experience with confined space entries. I've been doing it for 28 years and I sure don't consider myself an
expert on the subject. But please help educate me. Why did the victim go into convulsions instantly if he was
suffocating and why did it take months for him to recover? Like I said, I am not an expert on this, I'm only
relating my experiences. And in my experience nitrogen can be deadly even without being pressurize and without
"suffocating" you. And yes I know that air is 78% nitrogen.

I think this thread has drifted way to far off topic. For anyone else still interested go here Go here if you'd like
to read up on confined space requirements.
http://www.osha.gov/pls/oshaweb/owadisp.show_document?p_id=9797&p_table=STANDARDS

Joe Schneider
8437R



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[JJS]

"Drew Dalgleish" > wrote in message ...
> On Fri, 03 Feb 2006 06:05:45 GMT, Richard Lamb
> > wrote:
>
>>Morgans wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> "Roger" > wrote
>>>
>>>> Then he committed a sin for which job termination is usually
>>>> proscribed at most companies now days. You never, ever enter a vessel
>>>> that has been N2 purged unless bringing your own breathing air by
>>>> tank or hose. He entered without checking the O2 level and almost
>>>> suffocated.
>>>
>>> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>> The first post about this said:
>>>
>>> The catalyst vessel he was working in was under
>>> nitrogen atmosphere to prevent the catalyst from going pyrophoric.
>>> There was no pressure on the vessel and the
>>> manway was open. He removed is mask to spit, then inhaled before
>>> putting it back on. Instead of passing out, he
>>> instantly went into violent convulsions and dropped the mask. Even with
>>> an attendant equipped with a radio, and a
>>> tripod, winch, and lanyard already set up and attached we only got him
>>> out of the vessel alive by the grace of God.
>>
>>There HAD to be something else in the atmosphere, Jim.
>>
>>N2 just doesn't do that (does it???)
>>
>>Richard
>
> N2 doesn't do anything except displace O2 Lack of O2 normally causes
> the victim to just pass out almost instantly followed by convulsions
> then the cessation of respiration. ( quoted directly from the ontario
> mine rescue handbook)

Drew, Can you point me to a link. A very quick google search didn't turn up much from Ontario. I'd like to verify
the "lack of O2 normally causes the victim to pass out almost instantly". Ever see someone in a choke lose
consciousness instantly or go into convulsions after they pass out. I've seen them go unconscious but it took
minutes not seconds and I've never witnessed follow up convulsions.

Joe Schneider
8437R



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[Drew Dalgleish]

On Fri, 3 Feb 2006 23:31:17 -0600, "JJS" <jschneider@remove socks
cebridge.net> wrote:

>
>"Drew Dalgleish" > wrote in message ...
>> On Fri, 03 Feb 2006 06:05:45 GMT, Richard Lamb
>> > wrote:
>>
>>>Morgans wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> "Roger" > wrote
>>>>
>>>>> Then he committed a sin for which job termination is usually
>>>>> proscribed at most companies now days. You never, ever enter a vessel
>>>>> that has been N2 purged unless bringing your own breathing air by
>>>>> tank or hose. He entered without checking the O2 level and almost
>>>>> suffocated.
>>>>
>>>> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>>> The first post about this said:
>>>>
>>>> The catalyst vessel he was working in was under
>>>> nitrogen atmosphere to prevent the catalyst from going pyrophoric.
>>>> There was no pressure on the vessel and the
>>>> manway was open. He removed is mask to spit, then inhaled before
>>>> putting it back on. Instead of passing out, he
>>>> instantly went into violent convulsions and dropped the mask. Even with
>>>> an attendant equipped with a radio, and a
>>>> tripod, winch, and lanyard already set up and attached we only got him
>>>> out of the vessel alive by the grace of God.
>>>
>>>There HAD to be something else in the atmosphere, Jim.
>>>
>>>N2 just doesn't do that (does it???)
>>>
>>>Richard
>>
>> N2 doesn't do anything except displace O2 Lack of O2 normally causes
>> the victim to just pass out almost instantly followed by convulsions
>> then the cessation of respiration. ( quoted directly from the ontario
>> mine rescue handbook)
>
>Drew, Can you point me to a link. A very quick google search didn't turn up much from Ontario. I'd like to verify
>the "lack of O2 normally causes the victim to pass out almost instantly". Ever see someone in a choke lose
>consciousness instantly or go into convulsions after they pass out. I've seen them go unconscious but it took
>minutes not seconds and I've never witnessed follow up convulsions.
>
>Joe Schneider
>8437R

Joe The ontario mine rescue website is www.masha.on.ca but I
couldn't find an on line copy of our training manuel so I'll type out
the appropriate couple paragraphs per vatim

When there is no oxygen in the atmosphere, loss of consciosness is
quicker than in drowning. Not only is the supply of oxygen cut off,
but the oxygen in the lungs is rapidly depleted. Loss of conscionsness
is followed by convulsions, then cessation of respiration.
The effects of extreme oxygen deficiency are so rapid that ones life
is in peril before one relizes the danger.

The answer to the second question is no. I ocasionally do confined
space work but not normally in irrespirable atmospheres. For
firefighting we wear BG4 appatatus witch is a pure oxygen rebreather.

[Ian Stirling]

JJS <jschneider@remove socks cebridge.net> wrote:
>
> "Drew Dalgleish" > wrote in message ...
<snip>
>> N2 doesn't do anything except displace O2 Lack of O2 normally causes
>> the victim to just pass out almost instantly followed by convulsions
>> then the cessation of respiration. ( quoted directly from the ontario
>> mine rescue handbook)
>
> Drew, Can you point me to a link. A very quick google search didn't turn up much from Ontario. I'd like to verify
> the "lack of O2 normally causes the victim to pass out almost instantly". Ever see someone in a choke lose
> consciousness instantly or go into convulsions after they pass out. I've seen them go unconscious but it took
> minutes not seconds and I've never witnessed follow up convulsions.

Totally different situations.

In one, you've got lungs full of stale air.
There is a reasonable amount of O2 in it, even after you pass out
(IIRC).

Hemeoglobin is very clever, but it's not magic.
It releases the molecule it's bound to (O2 or CO2) when it reaches somewhere
there isn't much of that gas.

Normally this is a good thing, but when the lungs are full of N2, not
only do you get the normal release of CO2, but the lungs now actively
strip oxygen from the blood, something which normally never happens.

And, any further breaths simply make this worse, as they get rid of any
oxygen that may have been in the lungs as a remenant, or stripped from
the blood flowing through them.

Much the same thing (though slightly more severe, with the additional
possible complication of burst lungs) happens when you breath vacuum.

[JJS]

"Ian Stirling" > wrote in message ...
> Totally different situations.
>
> In one, you've got lungs full of stale air.
> There is a reasonable amount of O2 in it, even after you pass out
> (IIRC).
>
> Hemeoglobin is very clever, but it's not magic.
> It releases the molecule it's bound to (O2 or CO2) when it reaches somewhere
> there isn't much of that gas.
>
> Normally this is a good thing, but when the lungs are full of N2, not
> only do you get the normal release of CO2, but the lungs now actively
> strip oxygen from the blood, something which normally never happens.
>
> And, any further breaths simply make this worse, as they get rid of any
> oxygen that may have been in the lungs as a remenant, or stripped from
> the blood flowing through them.
>
> Much the same thing (though slightly more severe, with the additional
> possible complication of burst lungs) happens when you breath vacuum.

Ding! The light bulb is flickering. Thanks Ian, for being patient enough with me and taking the time to educate. I
was aware that hemoglobin exchanges CO2 and O2. I wasn't aware that it did so in the manner you describe releasing
either in a low presence of the gas in question. That is very interesting. I still do not understand why it took
the victim so long to recover from a lack of oxygen unless there really was some brain damage that he recovered from
over time?? Do you have any links to the CO2/O2 exchange mechanism for further reading?

Joe Schneider
N8437R



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[Richard Lamb]

JJS wrote:
> "Ian Stirling" > wrote in message ...
>
>>Totally different situations.
>>
>>In one, you've got lungs full of stale air.
>>There is a reasonable amount of O2 in it, even after you pass out
>>(IIRC).
>>
>>Hemeoglobin is very clever, but it's not magic.
>>It releases the molecule it's bound to (O2 or CO2) when it reaches somewhere
>>there isn't much of that gas.
>>
>>Normally this is a good thing, but when the lungs are full of N2, not
>>only do you get the normal release of CO2, but the lungs now actively
>>strip oxygen from the blood, something which normally never happens.
>>
>>And, any further breaths simply make this worse, as they get rid of any
>>oxygen that may have been in the lungs as a remenant, or stripped from
>>the blood flowing through them.
>>
>>Much the same thing (though slightly more severe, with the additional
>>possible complication of burst lungs) happens when you breath vacuum.
>
>
> Ding! The light bulb is flickering. Thanks Ian, for being patient enough with me and taking the time to educate. I
> was aware that hemoglobin exchanges CO2 and O2. I wasn't aware that it did so in the manner you describe releasing
> either in a low presence of the gas in question. That is very interesting. I still do not understand why it took
> the victim so long to recover from a lack of oxygen unless there really was some brain damage that he recovered from
> over time?? Do you have any links to the CO2/O2 exchange mechanism for further reading?
>
> Joe Schneider
> N8437R
>

I have to offer my thanks too, Ian.

Pretty Scary Stuff.


Richard

[Roger]

On Fri, 3 Feb 2006 23:23:13 -0600, "JJS" <jschneider@remove socks
cebridge.net> wrote:

>
>"Roger" > wrote in message ...
>> Then he committed a sin for which job termination is usually
>> proscribed at most companies now days. You never, ever enter a vessel
>> that has been N2 purged unless bringing your own breathing air by
>> tank or hose. He entered without checking the O2 level and almost
>> suffocated.
>>
>> Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
>> (N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
>> www.rogerhalstead.com
>
>Roger, did you miss my post and just reply to the response that was snipped by Bryan Martin without him indicating he
>did so?

Yup. Never saw it and I *tried" to cover the whole thread.
>
>It was I who filled out and signed the safe work and confined space entry permits. One of my direct reports took the
>gas samples with a handheld gas meter. The confined space entry was done correctly per OSHA 1910.146 confined space
>procedures. At my place of employment we have to make confined space entries on a routine basis.
>
As did I, even though at the time I was an Instrument tech. They put
instruments in some strange places. <:-))

>An attendant was present. An Emergency Response Team was on standby. One thing though, there was no forced air
>ventilation. He was using a supplied air respirator (air line mask) with a backup egress system. This was a
>professional contract company that does IDLH confined space entries for catalyst work as their sole source of income.
>Forced air ventilation will not make a "confined space" a "non-confined space" per OSHA. Ability to egress is a
>consideration unto itself. There are permit required and non-permit required confined spaces. (I never liked that
>terminology as they both require permits). IDLH atmospheres are permit required.
>
>Roger, I've been reading your posts here for years and you have my respect. It seems as we both have some job
>related experience with confined space entries. I've been doing it for 28 years and I sure don't consider myself an
>expert on the subject. But please help educate me. Why did the victim go into convulsions instantly if he was
>suffocating and why did it take months for him to recover? Like I said, I am not an expert on this, I'm only
>relating my experiences. And in my experience nitrogen can be deadly even without being pressurize and without
>"suffocating" you. And yes I know that air is 78% nitrogen.

Nor am I an expert on the subject either, but with similar time in the
field (26 years) before going back to college, but I stress that was
nearly 20 years ago.

"My Guess" which is all I can do from here, is there may have been
some traces of something other than N2 there. BUT as has been
mentioned, loss of consciousness is quite rapid in a pure N2
atmosphere. It's not usually instantaneous but quick. More like 5
to10 seconds which is about the time it takes for the process of
"removing" O2 from the blood in the lungs and the oxygen depleted
blood reaching the brain. However from my training (which was a long
time ago) the convulsions appear very soon, or almost as soon as the
loss of consciousness.

"My understanding" which could be flawed both by time and changes in
industry understanding since I left:

Our lungs work based on the "partial pressure" of O2 in the air. When
the partial pressure of O2 in the air is normal the lungs pass O2 into
the blood where the red blood cells bind the molecules of Oxygen and
carry it to where it is needed. Just about the first location being
the brain.
When the partial pressure drops below a given value (I've forgotten
the actual value) the lungs cease to pass the O2 into the blood
stream. Only a slight decrease from that point will cause the process
to reverse. Two things will cause this. remove the O2 from the
atmosphere and/or reduce the atmospheric pressure. This is the reason
why breathing pure O2 at high altitudes using a canula doesn't work.
You need the pressure of a mask.

OTOH blood that has had the O2 removed has an effect on the brain that
is quite different than Oxygen starved blood. It really messes with
the brain and does so quickly which accounts for the rapid onset of
convulsions. It's my understanding that the onset of brain damage is
also much faster as the blood is actually scavenging Oxygen from those
cells. The whole system has been thrown into reverse. The drop in O2
in the brain causes the neurons to start firing randomly which of
course results in convulsions.

That makes getting not just fresh air, but pure O2, to the patient as
quickly as possible, *essential* as you only have a small fraction of
the time normally available that you would have in the case of
asphyxiation. Even when pure O2 is applied you not only have to get
the amount of O2 in the blood up to normal, but it has to re oxygenate
areas that have less than normal amounts of O2, maybe way less. That
means the lungs themselves are going to be using up the O2 for a short
time before there is enough to supply the brain and the lungs are
going to be dealing with Oxygen starved blood for some time.

The brain is supposed to be capable of lasting up to 3 minutes or
possibly more without fresh air, the time available in this case may
be less than a minute. So, it is possible that this was a case of
inhaling pure N2 which would have given him just about time enough to
put the mask back in place before going down. The convulsions would
have probably started about the time he hit the floor.

Again, though, I stress it has been a long time since I had to deal
with this stuff on a day-to-day basis and I have not kept up with it
since then. "I think" which means I don't really know for sure, but
the treatment is pure O2 as quickly as possible and then like CO
poisoning, you keep the patient still as movement can make the
situation worse if done before the blood has been completely re
oxygenate.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

>
>I think this thread has drifted way to far off topic. For anyone else still interested go here Go here if you'd like
>to read up on confined space requirements.
>http://www.osha.gov/pls/oshaweb/owadisp.show_document?p_id=9797&p_table=STANDARDS
>
>Joe Schneider
>8437R
>
>
>
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[JJS]

"Roger" > wrote in message ...
snip

> "My Guess" which is all I can do from here, is there may have been
> some traces of something other than N2 there. BUT as has been
> mentioned, loss of consciousness is quite rapid in a pure N2
> atmosphere. It's not usually instantaneous but quick. More like 5
> to10 seconds which is about the time it takes for the process of
> "removing" O2 from the blood in the lungs and the oxygen depleted
> blood reaching the brain. However from my training (which was a long
> time ago) the convulsions appear very soon, or almost as soon as the
> loss of consciousness.
snip
>
> Our lungs work based on the "partial pressure" of O2 in the air. When
> the partial pressure of O2 in the air is normal the lungs pass O2 into
> the blood where the red blood cells bind the molecules of Oxygen and
> carry it to where it is needed. Just about the first location being
> the brain.
> When the partial pressure drops below a given value (I've forgotten
> the actual value) the lungs cease to pass the O2 into the blood
> stream. Only a slight decrease from that point will cause the process
> to reverse. Two things will cause this. remove the O2 from the
> atmosphere and/or reduce the atmospheric pressure. This is the reason
> why breathing pure O2 at high altitudes using a canula doesn't work.
> You need the pressure of a mask.
>
> OTOH blood that has had the O2 removed has an effect on the brain that
> is quite different than Oxygen starved blood. It really messes with
> the brain and does so quickly which accounts for the rapid onset of
> convulsions. It's my understanding that the onset of brain damage is
> also much faster as the blood is actually scavenging Oxygen from those
> cells. The whole system has been thrown into reverse. The drop in O2
> in the brain causes the neurons to start firing randomly which of
> course results in convulsions.
>
> That makes getting not just fresh air, but pure O2, to the patient as
> quickly as possible, *essential* as you only have a small fraction of
> the time normally available that you would have in the case of
> asphyxiation. Even when pure O2 is applied you not only have to get
> the amount of O2 in the blood up to normal, but it has to re oxygenate
> areas that have less than normal amounts of O2, maybe way less. That
> means the lungs themselves are going to be using up the O2 for a short
> time before there is enough to supply the brain and the lungs are
> going to be dealing with Oxygen starved blood for some time.
>
> The brain is supposed to be capable of lasting up to 3 minutes or
> possibly more without fresh air, the time available in this case may
> be less than a minute. So, it is possible that this was a case of
> inhaling pure N2 which would have given him just about time enough to
> put the mask back in place before going down. The convulsions would
> have probably started about the time he hit the floor.
>
> Again, though, I stress it has been a long time since I had to deal
> with this stuff on a day-to-day basis and I have not kept up with it
> since then. "I think" which means I don't really know for sure, but
> the treatment is pure O2 as quickly as possible and then like CO
> poisoning, you keep the patient still as movement can make the
> situation worse if done before the blood has been completely re
> oxygenate.
>
> Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
> (N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
> www.rogerhalstead.com

Thanks Roger. I believe this "disagreement" turned into a relevant discussion and good learning experience, (at
least for me). I wish all newsgroup threads would follow this example. The ERT did try and start high flow oxygen
on the victim as the first priority, however he was so combative that he kept knocking the nasal canula/mask, off.
(I can't remember which was used, perhaps both. This incident happened circa 1999). He was physically restrained and
tied down in a stokes basket on a back board while one guy held the mask in place as best he could.

From what I've gleaned from the discussion I still wouldn't consider nitrogen poisoning a true "poisoning". I can't
really say I'd consider it suffocation either, at least as I previously viewed suffocation. And if you type
"definition of toxic" in Google and peruse what comes up you can argue all day long whether nitrogen is toxic and
both sides could be considered correct. There is much more to this oxygen, carbon dioxide exchange than I was aware
of. And it amazes me that the exchange works fine when breathing in air that contains 78% nitrogen and 21% oxygen...
but in atmospheres containing less than 19% O2 we start starving for oxygen and at some point the exchange actually
reverses and O2 is stripped from the body? The older I get the less I know! And how in the heck we went from medal
winners: ATC tapes to this!

I'm headed to the airport. It's pretty outside!

Joe Schneider
8437R




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[Richard Lamb]

Might we go a bit farther?

The reason I ask is that I've seen people take big lungfuls of Helium,
which (obviously) doesn't produce the same effect.

Can someone explain why N is such a disaster but He doesn't?

(Should have paid more attention in chemistry classes!)


Richard

[Roger]

On Sun, 05 Feb 2006 17:50:04 GMT, Richard Lamb
> wrote:

>Might we go a bit farther?
>
>The reason I ask is that I've seen people take big lungfuls of Helium,
>which (obviously) doesn't produce the same effect.

A really big lung full can make you light headed in a hurry, but
beyond that?

>
>Can someone explain why N is such a disaster but He doesn't?

"I think" it has to do with the partial pressure of He compared to N,
but I really don't know. There are warnings about inhaling He, but
I've not heard of any reactions like those of N2. Still, He is used
as an N2 replacement in diving air at times to reduce the likely hood
of getting the bends on deep dives.

There *must* be some one who reads this group who knows.

>
>(Should have paid more attention in chemistry classes!)

I should have gotten better grades!

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

>
>
>Richard

[[email protected]]

JJS wrote:
> ...
>
> From what I've gleaned from the discussion I still wouldn't consider nitrogen poisoning a true "poisoning". I can't
> really say I'd consider it suffocation either, at least as I previously viewed suffocation.

I think the proper term is asphyxiation.

--

FF

[[email protected]]

Roger wrote:
> On Sun, 05 Feb 2006 17:50:04 GMT, Richard Lamb
> > wrote:
>
> >Might we go a bit farther?
> >
> >The reason I ask is that I've seen people take big lungfuls of Helium,
> >which (obviously) doesn't produce the same effect.
>
> A really big lung full can make you light headed in a hurry, but
> beyond that?

> >
> >Can someone explain why N is such a disaster but He doesn't?
>
> "I think" it has to do with the partial pressure of He compared to N,
> but I really don't know.

Partial Pressure of a gas is what the pressure would be if all the
other gasses were removed without changing the volume.

Equal volumes of gas at the same temperature and pressure have
equal numbers of molecules (Avogadro's law). So no, that isn't
the explanation.

> There are warnings about inhaling He, but
> I've not heard of any reactions like those of N2.

The warnings I have heard regard hydrocarbon contaminants
like compressor oils, putting the huffer at risk for chemical
pneumonia.

> Still, He is used
> as an N2 replacement in diving air at times to reduce the likely hood
> of getting the bends on deep dives.
>

One presumes contaminants like compressor oils are filtered out
when the Helium is intended for that purpose, something one might
not bother to do for balloons.

--

FF

[David Kazdan]

Helium is almost exactly the dilutional asphyxiant that nitrogen is.
It's used in deep-diving artificial atmospheres for two reasons:
Nitrogen is a weak anesthetic gas, producing intoxication at several
atmospheres pressure--(nitrogen narcosis"), and it's soluble enough in
blood and other water-based body fluids to fizz out when the pressure is
released suddenly (the bends, caisson worker's disease). Helium has
neither of these properties.

But breath helium in the absence of oxygen and, just like if you breath
nitrogen in similar circumstances, you will become unconscious, have an
anoxic seizure, and die. It's the same mechanism as used by the suicide
who surrounds himself with non-burning natural gas in an oven. The
people you've seen get away with a breath or two of it on the residual
oxygen in their lungs and blood. They can't get away with it for long,
and there are a few deaths per year in the US from people persisting in
breathing toy-balloon oxygen for voice games. There are also a few
deaths to nitrous oxide breathing for intoxication, also for anoxia.

As others have noted, carbon monoxide is a metabolic poison and causes
problems even in the presence of normally adequate oxygen. Carbon
dioxide in high concentrations is primarily a dilutional asphyxiant but,
again as others have noted, also has metabolic toxic effects.

David


David Kazdan, MD, PhD
Anesthesiologist
Pilot

Roger wrote:
> On Sun, 05 Feb 2006 17:50:04 GMT, Richard Lamb
> > wrote:
>
>
>>Might we go a bit farther?
>>
>>The reason I ask is that I've seen people take big lungfuls of Helium,
>>which (obviously) doesn't produce the same effect.
>
>
> A really big lung full can make you light headed in a hurry, but
> beyond that?
>
>
>>Can someone explain why N is such a disaster but He doesn't?
>
>
> "I think" it has to do with the partial pressure of He compared to N,
> but I really don't know. There are warnings about inhaling He, but
> I've not heard of any reactions like those of N2. Still, He is used
> as an N2 replacement in diving air at times to reduce the likely hood
> of getting the bends on deep dives.
>
> There *must* be some one who reads this group who knows.
>
>
>>(Should have paid more attention in chemistry classes!)
>
>
> I should have gotten better grades!
>
> Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
> (N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
> www.rogerhalstead.com
>
>
>>
>>Richard

[JJS]

"Richard Lamb" > wrote in message
link.net...
> Might we go a bit farther?
>
> The reason I ask is that I've seen people take big lungfuls of Helium,
> which (obviously) doesn't produce the same effect.
>
> Can someone explain why N is such a disaster but He doesn't?
>
> (Should have paid more attention in chemistry classes!)
>
>
> Richard

Take a look at this link under Potential Health Effects Information -- Warning:

http://www.iigas.com/heliumMSDS.htm



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[JJS]

> wrote in message oups.com...
>
> JJS wrote:
>> ...
>>
>> From what I've gleaned from the discussion I still wouldn't consider nitrogen poisoning a true "poisoning". I
>> can't
>> really say I'd consider it suffocation either, at least as I previously viewed suffocation.
>
> I think the proper term is asphyxiation.
>
> --
>
> FF

You may be right but most of the on line dictionaries I looked at said something similar to:
Noun 1. asphyxiation - the condition of being deprived of oxygen (as by having breathing stopped)
Synonyms: suffocation

I'm thinking that a reverse oxygen - carbon dioxide exchange is more insidious than ordinary suffocation. Perhaps
there is a medical term for this or maybe we need to invent a new one?

Joe Schneider
N8437R



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[.Blueskies.]

"David Kazdan" > wrote in message m...
> Helium is almost exactly the dilutional asphyxiant that nitrogen is. It's used in deep-diving artificial atmospheres
> for two reasons: Nitrogen is a weak anesthetic gas, producing intoxication at several atmospheres pressure--(nitrogen
> narcosis"), and it's soluble enough in blood and other water-based body fluids to fizz out when the pressure is
> released suddenly (the bends, caisson worker's disease). Helium has neither of these properties.
>
> But breath helium in the absence of oxygen and, just like if you breath nitrogen in similar circumstances, you will
> become unconscious, have an anoxic seizure, and die. It's the same mechanism as used by the suicide who surrounds
> himself with non-burning natural gas in an oven. The people you've seen get away with a breath or two of it on the
> residual oxygen in their lungs and blood. They can't get away with it for long, and there are a few deaths per year
> in the US from people persisting in breathing toy-balloon oxygen for voice games. There are also a few deaths to
> nitrous oxide breathing for intoxication, also for anoxia.
>
> As others have noted, carbon monoxide is a metabolic poison and causes problems even in the presence of normally
> adequate oxygen. Carbon dioxide in high concentrations is primarily a dilutional asphyxiant but, again as others have
> noted, also has metabolic toxic effects.
>
> David
>
>
> David Kazdan, MD, PhD
> Anesthesiologist
> Pilot
>

Excellent post, David, thank you.

[Rich S.]

"David Kazdan" > wrote in message
m...
>
> . . . But breath helium in the absence of oxygen and, just like if you
> breath nitrogen in similar circumstances, you will become unconscious,
> have an anoxic seizure, and die. . . The people you've seen get away with
> a breath
> or two of it on the residual oxygen in their lungs and blood.

Excellent post and, as far as I know, your facts are correct.

But - I find it odd that person of your stated qualifications does not seem
to know the difference between "breath" and "breathe". ?????

Rich "One can be a typo. Two makes it an error. Three would be enemy
action." S.

[David Kazdan]

Ouch, that's pretty bad. Sorry. No question about it, error. I rather
pride myself on not needing to use a spell checker, too. Ouch, ouch,
ouch. Need lidocaine.

David

Rich S. wrote:
> "David Kazdan" > wrote in message
> m...
>
>>. . . But breath helium in the absence of oxygen and, just like if you
>>breath nitrogen in similar circumstances, you will become unconscious,
>>have an anoxic seizure, and die. . . The people you've seen get away with
>>a breath
>>or two of it on the residual oxygen in their lungs and blood.
>
>
> Excellent post and, as far as I know, your facts are correct.
>
> But - I find it odd that person of your stated qualifications does not seem
> to know the difference between "breath" and "breathe". ?????
>
> Rich "One can be a typo. Two makes it an error. Three would be enemy
> action." S.
>
>

[Rich S.]

"David Kazdan" > wrote in message
t...
> Ouch, that's pretty bad. Sorry. No question about it, error. I rather
> pride myself on not needing to use a spell checker, too. Ouch, ouch,
> ouch. Need lidocaine.

I think I've got a thirty year old vial of it around hear someplace. . . :)

Rich S.

[Cy Galley]

People HAVE died when they get too much Helium in their lungs.


"Richard Lamb" > wrote in message
link.net...
> Might we go a bit farther?
>
> The reason I ask is that I've seen people take big lungfuls of Helium,
> which (obviously) doesn't produce the same effect.
>
> Can someone explain why N is such a disaster but He doesn't?
>
> (Should have paid more attention in chemistry classes!)
>
>
> Richard

[[email protected]]

JJS wrote:
> > wrote in message oups.com...
> >
> > JJS wrote:
> >> ...
> >>
> >> From what I've gleaned from the discussion I still wouldn't consider nitrogen poisoning a true "poisoning". I
> >> can't
> >> really say I'd consider it suffocation either, at least as I previously viewed suffocation.
> >
> > I think the proper term is asphyxiation.
> >
> > --
> >
> > FF
>
> You may be right but most of the on line dictionaries I looked at said something similar to:
> Noun 1. asphyxiation - the condition of being deprived of oxygen (as by having breathing stopped)
> Synonyms: suffocation

That is basicly what we are talking about, being deprived of oxygen.

>
> I'm thinking that a reverse oxygen - carbon dioxide exchange is more insidious than ordinary suffocation. Perhaps
> there is a medical term for this or maybe we need to invent a new one?
>

I think divers have a term for a similar phenomenum, _shallow water
blackout_.

http://www.freedive.net/chapters/SWB3.html

--

FF

[Roger]

On 6 Feb 2006 11:40:13 -0800, wrote:

>
>Roger wrote:
>> On Sun, 05 Feb 2006 17:50:04 GMT, Richard Lamb
>> > wrote:
>>
>> >Might we go a bit farther?
>> >
>> >The reason I ask is that I've seen people take big lungfuls of Helium,
>> >which (obviously) doesn't produce the same effect.
>>
>> A really big lung full can make you light headed in a hurry, but
>> beyond that?
>
>> >
>> >Can someone explain why N is such a disaster but He doesn't?
>>
>> "I think" it has to do with the partial pressure of He compared to N,
>> but I really don't know.
>
>Partial Pressure of a gas is what the pressure would be if all the
>other gasses were removed without changing the volume.
>
>Equal volumes of gas at the same temperature and pressure have
>equal numbers of molecules (Avogadro's law). So no, that isn't
>the explanation.

I thought Avogadro's Law (number the same?) was a gram molecular
weight of any element will have the same number of molecules as the
gram molecular weight for any other element. As I recall it's
6 X 10^28

>
>> There are warnings about inhaling He, but
>> I've not heard of any reactions like those of N2.
>
>The warnings I have heard regard hydrocarbon contaminants
>like compressor oils, putting the huffer at risk for chemical
>pneumonia.
>
>> Still, He is used
>> as an N2 replacement in diving air at times to reduce the likely hood
>> of getting the bends on deep dives.
>>
>
>One presumes contaminants like compressor oils are filtered out
>when the Helium is intended for that purpose, something one might
>not bother to do for balloons.

I don't think in today's world compressor oils would be a problem with
He.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

[Richard Lamb]

Cy Galley wrote:
> People HAVE died when they get too much Helium in their lungs.
>
>
That's what the MDS sheet on the site said.
Residual O2 in the lungs seems to be all that saves them.

At risk of repeating myself repeatedly, Scary Stuff.


Richard

How come we get so soon old and so late smart?

[JJS]

> wrote in message oups.com...
>
> I think divers have a term for a similar phenomenum, _shallow water
> blackout_.
>
> http://www.freedive.net/chapters/SWB3.html
>
> --
>
> FF

Very interesting! Thanks Fredfighter.



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[Robert Bonomi]

In article >,
Rich S. > wrote:
>"David Kazdan" > wrote in message
t...
>> Ouch, that's pretty bad. Sorry. No question about it, error. I rather
>> pride myself on not needing to use a spell checker, too. Ouch, ouch,
>> ouch. Need lidocaine.
>
>I think I've got a thirty year old vial of it around hear someplace. . . :)
>
>Rich S.
>
>

At thirty years old, I _really_ think you mean 'vile'. <*GRIN*>

[Rich S.]

"Robert Bonomi" > wrote in message
...
>>I think I've got a thirty year old vial of it around hear someplace. . .
>>:)
>
> At thirty years old, I _really_ think you mean 'vile'. <*GRIN*>

You got that right. I think it turned yellow in 1985.

Rich S.

[Don W]

Hi David,

David Kazdan wrote:
> Helium is almost exactly the dilutional asphyxiant that nitrogen is.
> It's used in deep-diving artificial atmospheres for two reasons:
> Nitrogen is a weak anesthetic gas, producing intoxication at several
> atmospheres pressure--(nitrogen narcosis"), and it's soluble enough in
> blood and other water-based body fluids to fizz out when the pressure is
> released suddenly (the bends, caisson worker's disease). "Helium has
> neither of these properties."

<snip>

> David
>
>
> David Kazdan, MD, PhD
> Anesthesiologist
> Pilot

I hesitate to enter this discussion since you are obviously well
qualified, however, that is often how learning occurs and I still
have a lot to learn.

I agree with all of your excellent post with one minor exception.
Helium _is_ absorbed into the bloodstream under high enough partial
pressure and does release bubbles when the pressure is released
too quickly. Heliox (Helium + O2) and Trimix (Helium + N + O2) are
common gasses used in the technical diving community, and they both
require decompression stops on the way back to the surface. Technical
divers use these mixes for dives from 130' (~5 atmospheres) to as much
as 1000' (~31 atmospheres). The O2 content of the mixes is reduced to
avoid oxygen toxicity effects at high PPO2. I also would point out
that helium at high PP--although not narcotic like Nitrogen--does
produce some strange physiological effects including a "buzz" similar
to having had a lot of caffein.

Don Woodbridge P.E.
Engineer
Technical Diver
Pilot

[[email protected]]

Roger wrote:
> On 6 Feb 2006 11:40:13 -0800, wrote:
>
> >
> >Roger wrote:
> >> On Sun, 05 Feb 2006 17:50:04 GMT, Richard Lamb
> >> > wrote:
> >>
> >> >Might we go a bit farther?
> >> >
> >> >The reason I ask is that I've seen people take big lungfuls of Helium,
> >> >which (obviously) doesn't produce the same effect.
> >>
> >> A really big lung full can make you light headed in a hurry, but
> >> beyond that?
> >
> >> >
> >> >Can someone explain why N is such a disaster but He doesn't?
> >>
> >> "I think" it has to do with the partial pressure of He compared to N,
> >> but I really don't know.
> >
> >Partial Pressure of a gas is what the pressure would be if all the
> >other gasses were removed without changing the volume.
> >
> >Equal volumes of gas at the same temperature and pressure have
> >equal numbers of molecules (Avogadro's law). So no, that isn't
> >the explanation.
>
> I thought Avogadro's Law (number the same?) was a gram molecular
> weight of any element will have the same number of molecules as the
> gram molecular weight for any other element. As I recall it's
> 6 X 10^28
>

Perhaps he has more than one law named for him.

In essence, Avogadro's number is the conversion factor between
gram molecular weight of an and the number of molecules
in a sample of that element with a mass numerically equal in grams
to its gram molecular weight. Which, as stated in the law you quote,
is the same for all elements, or for that matter any substance which
consists of but a single molecule.

6.022 E23, as I recall.

Avogadro's law, Boyle's law and Charles' law may be combined to
produce the ideal gas law.

--

FF

[Montblack]

("Don W" wrote)
> I also would point out that helium at high PP--although not narcotic like
> Nitrogen--does produce some strange physiological effects including a
> "buzz" similar to having had a lot of caffein.
>
> Don Woodbridge P.E.
> Engineer
> Technical Diver
> Pilot


This may sound silly, but what about CO2 in soda-pop? If one drinks six or
seven cans/day of pop (diet - whatever) what does that do in the
bloodstream?

I've heard Olympic level athletes do not drink pop, for performance
reasons - blood, oxygen carrying ability, ...something.


Montblack

[Morgans]

">> I think divers have a term for a similar phenomenum, _shallow water
>> blackout_.
>
> Very interesting! Thanks Fredfighter.

Yes, thanks, I think.

I sometimes think that it is a miracle that I didn't manage to kill myself,
one way or the other, while growing up.

I spent a lot of time in pools and lakes as a kid, and was quite good at
spending large periods of time underwater, holding my breath. Sometimes it
was competing for swiming the greatest distance underwater. Sometimes it
was working on building stuff, like weighing down a plastic barrel upside
down, so we could swim under it, and hang out in the pocket of trapped air.

I was appauled to read about the symptoms I oftened experienced, and how
close I (and my buddies) came to doing serious harm. Wow!
--
Jim in NC

[Morgans]

"Don W" > wrote

> Helium _is_ absorbed into the bloodstream under high enough partial
> pressure and does release bubbles when the pressure is released
> too quickly. Heliox (Helium + O2) and Trimix (Helium + N + O2) are
> common gasses used in the technical diving community, and they both
> require decompression stops on the way back to the surface.

A strange and juvenile thought popped into my head, while reading about
dissolved He, and thinking about the decompression effects one experiences
while ascending in an unpressurized small plane.

We all know that farts are unavoidable as we get high in a small plane.
Those are the garden variety stinky ones, from breathing regular air. What
happens when you come up from the depths after breathing some He? Do you
fart Helium? <g>

I know, thirty lashes with a wet noodle! ;-)
--
Jim in NC

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

> "David Kazdan" > wrote in message
> m...

>> But breath helium in the absence of oxygen and, just like if you breath
>> nitrogen in similar circumstances, you will become unconscious, have an
>> anoxic seizure, and die. It's the same mechanism as used by the suicide
>> who surrounds himself with non-burning natural gas in an oven.

FWIW...

That's real hard to do nowdays.

Back when sticking your head in the oven was a popular movie cliche, the gas
distributed in most big cities was producer gas - a byproduct of of the
process used to make coke out of coal - essentially partial combustion with
inadequate air. The heating value of producer gas was primarily due to the
carbon monoxide content (it also contained a lot of N2 and CO2 as you would
expect). The CO is what made sticking your head in the oven work so well.
However, since the 1950's and the development of the cross country
pipelines, producer gas has been replace with natural gas (primarily methane
with a little mercaptan added to make it smell) which is just not the same
thing. Also, the oven burners are designed to mix air with the natural gas
so it's hard to adequately displace the oxygen in the air to commit suicide
by simply sticking your head in the open door.

--
Geoff
the sea hawk at wow way d0t com
remove spaces and make the obvious substitutions to reply by mail
Spell checking is left as an excercise for the reader.

[David Kazdan]

On pumped fuel gases: Point well taken, you're correct that it used to
be at least partly carbon monoxide. I think that industrial fuel gases
were even purer CO at one time. I have a vague memory that it was
produced by passing flue gases through heated iron pipes to convert CO2
to CO--is that correct?

On helium solubility: Thanks for the note, I wasn't aware of Trimix.
Similarly, I didn't know helium had a drug effect. Xenon must have the
most of all the noble gases; it has good anesthetic effect at about 70
Torr and is currently being proposed for actual surgical anesthesia. It
has the interesting problem of not being patentable, and therefore not
worth any company's money to get through FDA approval, so it may never
appear on the drug market. Of other small, nonpolar molecules, the one
I'm sorry I missed (it was gone before I started my practice) is
cyclopropane. It's similarly very blood insoluble and therefore
fast-acting (more on that if anyone's interested). It has the problem
of being not just inflammable like ether, but explosive. Spark
suppression used to be a big deal in operating room design.

Another interesting suicide-by-oxygen-dilution problem is automobile
exhaust. Catalytic converters work well enough that running a car
engine in a closed garage frequently produces anoxic brain damage (CO2
poisoning) rather than death (CO same). Perhaps that happens to some of
the suicides who are unaware that fuel gas got swapped for methane.

Things were quiet in the operating room today, and I had an hour to chat
with the anesthesiology residents. I told them about this Usenet
discussion and asked them to distinguish CO2 poisoning from that by CO.
They didn't do very well.

David

Don W wrote:
> Hi David,
>
> David Kazdan wrote:
>
>> Helium is almost exactly the dilutional asphyxiant that nitrogen
>> is. It's used in deep-diving artificial atmospheres for two reasons:
>> Nitrogen is a weak anesthetic gas, producing intoxication at several
>> atmospheres pressure--(nitrogen narcosis"), and it's soluble enough in
>> blood and other water-based body fluids to fizz out when the pressure
>> is released suddenly (the bends, caisson worker's disease). "Helium
>> has neither of these properties."
>
>
> <snip>
>
> > David
> >
> >
> > David Kazdan, MD, PhD
> > Anesthesiologist
> > Pilot
>
> I hesitate to enter this discussion since you are obviously well
> qualified, however, that is often how learning occurs and I still
> have a lot to learn.
>
> I agree with all of your excellent post with one minor exception.
> Helium _is_ absorbed into the bloodstream under high enough partial
> pressure and does release bubbles when the pressure is released
> too quickly. Heliox (Helium + O2) and Trimix (Helium + N + O2) are
> common gasses used in the technical diving community, and they both
> require decompression stops on the way back to the surface. Technical
> divers use these mixes for dives from 130' (~5 atmospheres) to as much
> as 1000' (~31 atmospheres). The O2 content of the mixes is reduced to
> avoid oxygen toxicity effects at high PPO2. I also would point out
> that helium at high PP--although not narcotic like Nitrogen--does
> produce some strange physiological effects including a "buzz" similar
> to having had a lot of caffein.
>
> Don Woodbridge P.E.
> Engineer
> Technical Diver
> Pilot
>
>

[Roger]

On Tue, 7 Feb 2006 12:12:29 -0600, "Montblack"
> wrote:

>("Don W" wrote)
>> I also would point out that helium at high PP--although not narcotic like
>> Nitrogen--does produce some strange physiological effects including a
>> "buzz" similar to having had a lot of caffein.
>>
>> Don Woodbridge P.E.
>> Engineer
>> Technical Diver
>> Pilot
>
>
>This may sound silly, but what about CO2 in soda-pop? If one drinks six or
>seven cans/day of pop (diet - whatever) what does that do in the
>bloodstream?
>
>I've heard Olympic level athletes do not drink pop, for performance
>reasons - blood, oxygen carrying ability, ...something.
>
It's loaded with processed sugar which brings on a shot of energy
followed by a rapid decline in energy. They want something that
lasts. You ever see how much some of those athletes eat? If I ate
half that much I'd need wheels.

Pop is often refered to as having "empty calories". People who drink a
lot of pop tend to be a wee bit on the hefty side and it takes a lot
of exercise to burn that off..

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com
>
>Montblack

[Roger]

On 7 Feb 2006 10:08:43 -0800, wrote:

>
>Roger wrote:
>> On 6 Feb 2006 11:40:13 -0800, wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >Roger wrote:
>> >> On Sun, 05 Feb 2006 17:50:04 GMT, Richard Lamb
>> >> > wrote:
>> >>
>> >> >Might we go a bit farther?
>> >> >
>> >> >The reason I ask is that I've seen people take big lungfuls of Helium,
>> >> >which (obviously) doesn't produce the same effect.
>> >>
>> >> A really big lung full can make you light headed in a hurry, but
>> >> beyond that?
>> >
>> >> >
>> >> >Can someone explain why N is such a disaster but He doesn't?
>> >>
>> >> "I think" it has to do with the partial pressure of He compared to N,
>> >> but I really don't know.
>> >
>> >Partial Pressure of a gas is what the pressure would be if all the
>> >other gasses were removed without changing the volume.
>> >
>> >Equal volumes of gas at the same temperature and pressure have
>> >equal numbers of molecules (Avogadro's law). So no, that isn't
>> >the explanation.
>>
>> I thought Avogadro's Law (number the same?) was a gram molecular
>> weight of any element will have the same number of molecules as the
>> gram molecular weight for any other element. As I recall it's
>> 6 X 10^28
>>
>
>Perhaps he has more than one law named for him.
>
>In essence, Avogadro's number is the conversion factor between
>gram molecular weight of an and the number of molecules
>in a sample of that element with a mass numerically equal in grams
>to its gram molecular weight. Which, as stated in the law you quote,
>is the same for all elements, or for that matter any substance which
>consists of but a single molecule.
>
>6.022 E23, as I recall.
>
>Avogadro's law, Boyle's law and Charles' law may be combined to
>produce the ideal gas law.

Back in college we had two chemistry books that had exponents on that
that differed by several digits.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

[Rich S.]

"David Kazdan" > wrote in message
m...
>
> Things were quiet in the operating room today, and I had an hour to chat
> with the anesthesiology residents. I told them about this Usenet
> discussion and asked them to distinguish CO2 poisoning from that by CO.
> They didn't do very well.

I remember attempting to resuscitate a V. Fib. case at a fraternity near the
U. of Wash. We tubed the patient but were unable to get an IV line going to
administer meds. I was about to try a subclavian when three anestheologists
walked up.

It's been over thirty years ago and I scarcely remember the details, but
they quickly advised us that we already had a perfect administration route -
the endotracheal tube! We had never been instructed that we could administer
drugs through the tube. After checking to make sure they were who they
claimed to be, they assisted us by simply squirting meds in the tube and
resuming bag respiration.

The attempt was futile, but I still remember their help.

Rich S.

[Montblack]

("Roger" wrote)
>>I've heard Olympic level athletes do not drink pop, for performance
>>reasons - blood, oxygen carrying ability, ...something.

> It's loaded with processed sugar which brings on a shot of energy followed
> by a rapid decline in energy. They want something that lasts. You ever
> see how much some of those athletes eat? If I ate half that much I'd need
> wheels.


No, not the sugar or diet chemicals, just the CO2 side of the can. Does
drinking 5, 6, 7, 8, 9 cans of pop per/day do something (bad) to your system
because of (possible?) CO2 absorption(?) into the bloodstream?

The Olympics are days away...
(Getting back OT with medal winners :-)


Montblack

[Richard Lamb]

Montblack wrote:

Monty, did you get a note from me today?
If not, I obviously didn't clean up your email address right.

Some of us are better manglers than others....


Richard

[Montblack]

("Richard Lamb" wrote)
> Monty, did you get a note from me today?
> If not, I obviously didn't clean up your email address right.
>
> Some of us are better manglers than others....


Nope.



Y4-NOT = Mont black at v i s i (.) and the rest


Montblack :-)
O-ho, the Wells Fargo Wagon is a-comin' down the street
I wish, I wish I knew what it could be

[Greg Esres]

<<It is CO that is the poison!!! >>

Read somewhere that there are no toxic substances, only toxic
quantities.

[David Kazdan]

Right--give higher doses and _never_ give bicarbonate that way (mostly
off the ACLS protocols, anyway). It's mostly used for epinephrine doses.

David

Rich S. wrote:
> "David Kazdan" > wrote in message
> m...
>
>>Things were quiet in the operating room today, and I had an hour to chat
>>with the anesthesiology residents. I told them about this Usenet
>>discussion and asked them to distinguish CO2 poisoning from that by CO.
>>They didn't do very well.
>
>
> I remember attempting to resuscitate a V. Fib. case at a fraternity near the
> U. of Wash. We tubed the patient but were unable to get an IV line going to
> administer meds. I was about to try a subclavian when three anestheologists
> walked up.
>
> It's been over thirty years ago and I scarcely remember the details, but
> they quickly advised us that we already had a perfect administration route -
> the endotracheal tube! We had never been instructed that we could administer
> drugs through the tube. After checking to make sure they were who they
> claimed to be, they assisted us by simply squirting meds in the tube and
> resuming bag respiration.
>
> The attempt was futile, but I still remember their help.
>
> Rich S.
>
>

[Ian Stirling]

JJS <jschneider@remove socks cebridge.net> wrote:
>
> "Ian Stirling" > wrote in message ...
>> Totally different situations.
>>
>> In one, you've got lungs full of stale air.
>> There is a reasonable amount of O2 in it, even after you pass out
>> (IIRC).
>>
>> Hemeoglobin is very clever, but it's not magic.
>> It releases the molecule it's bound to (O2 or CO2) when it reaches somewhere
>> there isn't much of that gas.
>>
>> Normally this is a good thing, but when the lungs are full of N2, not
>> only do you get the normal release of CO2, but the lungs now actively
>> strip oxygen from the blood, something which normally never happens.
<snip>
> Ding! The light bulb is flickering. Thanks Ian, for being patient enough with me and taking the time to educate. I
> was aware that hemoglobin exchanges CO2 and O2. I wasn't aware that it did so in the manner you describe releasing
> either in a low presence of the gas in question. That is very interesting. I still do not understand why it took

Yup, it's a beautifully simple mechanism.

> the victim so long to recover from a lack of oxygen unless there really was some brain damage that he recovered from
> over time?? Do you have any links to the CO2/O2 exchange mechanism for further reading?

http://groups.google.co.uk/group/sci.space.tech/browse_frm/thread/1905d6443810378c/f4ac2abacf99c7df?lnk=st&q=%22vacuum%22+%22henry+spencer%22&rnum=1&hl=en#f4ac2abacf99c7df

I _think_ this should work.
It's a thread on sci.space.tech, about vacuum breathing.

I can only assume that the long time to recover was due to slight brain
damage, due to the lack of oxygen.