Splurging on Your Plane

[Marco Leon]

Was looking at this beauty of an Arrow featured in Pipers magazine
(www.4979S.com). According to the article, the guy spent over $170,000
updating the thing and boy does it show. It got me wondering about other
examples so I figured I'd ask the most vocal group I know
of--rec.aviation.piloting!

What are some of the most extreme examples of, umm, "investing" have you
seen and/or heard of in a personal aircraft?

Marco



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[Peter R.]

Marco Leon <mmleonyahoo.com> wrote:

> Was looking at this beauty of an Arrow featured in Pipers magazine
> (www.4979S.com). According to the article, the guy spent over $170,000
> updating the thing and boy does it show. It got me wondering about other
> examples so I figured I'd ask the most vocal group I know
> of--rec.aviation.piloting!

All that money spent and no form of anti-icing? Hmmm...

> What are some of the most extreme examples of, umm, "investing" have you
> seen and/or heard of in a personal aircraft?

Converting a B36 Bonanza's engine to Rocket Engineering's "Turbine Air"
turboprop system, somewhere in the neighborhood of US $495,000.

--
Peter

[Robert M. Gary]

There was a guy on this list who put a pair of Garmin 430's in his
C150. In a splurge price to aircraft value ratio, that's got to be the
winner. I used to think this type of thing was nuts until I'd been an
aircraft owner for awhile. There are many reasons why its a good idea
to "splurge" on your plane vs. just buying a plane with what you want
on it...

1) In California, the cost to "flip" your plane is 8-10% the value of
the plane in sale/use tax, so you lose $17,000 on a $170,000 flip
anyway.
2) When you first buy a plane, even a "perfect" plane with a factory
service center inspection, you will spend a lot of money getting it
right for you. You can consider this a purchase cost you will have with
any plane you will buy.
3) Probably the most important thing, your plane is a known quantity.
Most of us are buying planes that are 20 to 30 years old. At that age
there can be a lot of gottchas. The risk of a gottcha with the plane
you know well is less than something you've never seen. There are many
gottchas that don't get caught on even the most complete inspection.

-Robert

[Robert M. Gary]

> All that money spent and no form of anti-icing? Hmmm...

I don't believe the Arrow has an anti-icing option. For that you need a
real plane, like a Mooney.

-Robert

[ktbr]

Marco Leon wrote:
> What are some of the most extreme examples of, umm, "investing" have you
> seen and/or heard of in a personal aircraft?

One of my favorites is Jimmy Buffet's Grumman seaplane "Margaritaville".
Of course, it pales in comparison with some of these gold plated
jetliners some of these oil sheiks own.

[Peter R.]

"Robert M. Gary" > wrote:

> I don't believe the Arrow has an anti-icing option. For that you need a
> real plane, like a Mooney.

Ah, that would explain it. However, if I were to build an IFR
cross-country, single-engine aircraft by starting with a base aircraft and
tossing lots of money at it, an airframe that accepts some type of
anti-icing system would be my starting point.

--
Peter

[Paul Tomblin]

In a previous article, "Robert M. Gary" > said:
>There was a guy on this list who put a pair of Garmin 430's in his
>C150. In a splurge price to aircraft value ratio, that's got to be the
>winner. I used to think this type of thing was nuts until I'd been an

But in his defence he knew the C150 was just a "starter plane" and after
he'd got some hours on it was going to buy up, and move the 430s to the
new aircraft.


--
Paul Tomblin > http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/
Don't you just hate them? Don't you just wanna break their ribs,
cut their backs open and pull their lungs out from behind?
-- Ina Faye-Lund, on script kiddies

[Robert M. Gary]

>But in his defence he knew the C150 was just a "starter plane" and after
>he'd got some hours on it was going to buy up, and move the 430s to the
>new aircraft.

Ah, I didn't recall that. When I've looked at putting one 430 in my
plane I've been quoted between $4K to $5K just for installation. Maybe
its somewhat less in a C150 but thats still a lot of dead presidents.

-Robert

[Robert M. Gary]

> However, if I were to build an IFR
> cross-country, single-engine aircraft by starting with a base aircraft and
> tossing lots of money at it, an airframe that accepts some type of
> anti-icing system would be my starting point.

I was being a bit sarcastic, an Arrow is a good plane. You can always
add full deice to any Mooney J model forward. However, for the system
to be FAA approved for known icing conditions it must have been factory
installed. However, there are a lot of well priced Mooney 231's out
there that have their FAA approved known ice systems still installed
and working.
The FAA known ice also means that aircraft was designed such that
things like fuel vents, etc are vented in such a way that they don't
ice up. Its more than just the deicing system.

-Robert

[Marco Leon]

"Robert M. Gary" > wrote in message
oups.com...

> 3) Probably the most important thing, your plane is a known quantity.
> Most of us are buying planes that are 20 to 30 years old. At that age
> there can be a lot of gottchas. The risk of a gottcha with the plane
> you know well is less than something you've never seen. There are many
> gottchas that don't get caught on even the most complete inspection.

Assuming a $70K purchase price on the Arrow, the math comes to over $240K
total. Quite a number of 2003+ glass-cockpit Cirrus SR-20's for that price
with comparable performance and payload. Maybe he doesn't like the Cirruses
but the options are wide open if he knew what he had to spend (that's a big
"if"). Very possibly could have been just a case of the update bug gone
wild.

Marco



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[Marco Leon]

My Garmin 430 installation had similar installation costs. As for the C150,
the GPS antenna would need to be removed and the hole patched and the CDI
removed/replaced as well. All this times two so that's at least $9K lost in
the transaction.

Marco

"Robert M. Gary" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> >But in his defence he knew the C150 was just a "starter plane" and after
> >he'd got some hours on it was going to buy up, and move the 430s to the
> >new aircraft.
>
> Ah, I didn't recall that. When I've looked at putting one 430 in my
> plane I've been quoted between $4K to $5K just for installation. Maybe
> its somewhat less in a C150 but thats still a lot of dead presidents.
>
> -Robert
>



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[Nathan Young]

On Tue, 31 Jan 2006 13:04:46 -0500, "Marco Leon" <mmleon(at)yahoo.com>
wrote:

>
>"Robert M. Gary" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>
>> 3) Probably the most important thing, your plane is a known quantity.
>> Most of us are buying planes that are 20 to 30 years old. At that age
>> there can be a lot of gottchas. The risk of a gottcha with the plane
>> you know well is less than something you've never seen. There are many
>> gottchas that don't get caught on even the most complete inspection.
>
>Assuming a $70K purchase price on the Arrow, the math comes to over $240K
>total. Quite a number of 2003+ glass-cockpit Cirrus SR-20's for that price
>with comparable performance and payload. Maybe he doesn't like the Cirruses
>but the options are wide open if he knew what he had to spend (that's a big
>"if"). Very possibly could have been just a case of the update bug gone
>wild.

Plus he won't get $240k when he goes to sell the Arrow. Meanwhile,
the Cirrus would hold its resale fairly well... But it seems that for
the owner of the Arrow in question, finances are not a concern (he was
employee #2 at AutoCad), and he is doing this for fun...

As a relative comparison, aso.com lists the following Arrows...
A 1999 Arrow III with a similar set of avonics to the aforementinoed
Arrow, and only 1270TT, price = $189k.

A 1978 Turbo Arrow with similar avionics = $144k

-Nathan

[Jay Honeck]

> The FAA known ice also means that aircraft was designed such that
> things like fuel vents, etc are vented in such a way that they don't
> ice up. Its more than just the deicing system.

And, as I understand it, the FAA has really tightened up on "known
icing certification since the Mooney 231 was certified.

>From what I've heard, it (and many other planes) would no longer pass
muster under current standards.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Gene Seibel]

I estimate it took about 8 years to get all the gottchas out of my
Tri-Pacer. No real surprises after that.
--
Gene Seibel
Gene & Sue's Aeroplanes - http://pad39a.com/gene/planes.html
Because we fly, we envy no one.

[Marco Leon]

"Nathan Young" > wrote in message
...

> Plus he won't get $240k when he goes to sell the Arrow. Meanwhile,
> the Cirrus would hold its resale fairly well... But it seems that for
> the owner of the Arrow in question, finances are not a concern (he was
> employee #2 at AutoCad), and he is doing this for fun...

I think it's safe to say that once you start using the word "splurge" when
describing your aircraft updating activities, resale value ceases to become
a concern. As an aircraft owner, there is an enormous sense of satisfaction
that comes out of updating your plane. The main sanity check for most is the
good 'ole wallet. Without that fiscal check, well, sky's the limit I
suppose.

Marco


>
> As a relative comparison, aso.com lists the following Arrows...
> A 1999 Arrow III with a similar set of avonics to the aforementinoed
> Arrow, and only 1270TT, price = $189k.
>
> A 1978 Turbo Arrow with similar avionics = $144k
>
> -Nathan
>
>
>



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[Denny]

One of the few flying P-38's just changed hands... That might be an
extreme in personal aircraft - especially in a dollars invested per
likely hours of flight per year...
But, there are folks who fly personal jets, which might be considered
extreme... Then there are the few who rented a ride to the space
station at $20M a pop... How, extreme do you want to get?

denny

[Robert M. Gary]

> And, as I understand it, the FAA has really tightened up on "known
> icing certification since the Mooney 231 was certified.

True, but that doesn't effect existing planes. In fact, the weeping
wings system that Mooney uses is still in use by Mooney to produce
known-ice singles. The only change since original is a POH update
mandated by an AD that says you should attempt to get out of ice. The
nice thing about the weeping wings is that is protects a lot more of
the wing than the small area boots protect.

-Robert

[Robert M. Gary]

> I estimate it took about 8 years to get all the gottchas out of my
> Tri-Pacer. No real surprises after that.

I'm in the same boat. Makes me not want to buy up. Makes me want to
upgrade my existing plane.

-Robert

[Marco Leon]

"Denny" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> One of the few flying P-38's just changed hands... That might be an
> extreme in personal aircraft - especially in a dollars invested per
> likely hours of flight per year...
> But, there are folks who fly personal jets, which might be considered
> extreme... Then there are the few who rented a ride to the space
> station at $20M a pop... How, extreme do you want to get?

I'm thinking just as far as upgrades. The thing with the P-38 and many of
the jets is that they offer something either unique or a level of speed that
requires a certain "entrance fee." I was thinking more of the stuff that
private owners add on to an existing airframe. When you can compare a $550K
Piper 6X to a $150K 1977 Cherokee 6 with $400K worht of upgrades, the
Cherokee makes for a more "interesting" story.

Marco



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[Ken Reed]

> However, there are a lot of well priced Mooney 231's out
> there that have their FAA approved known ice systems still installed
> and working.

I was recently looking for a Mooney 231/252/262 with some sort of de-ice
and didn't find even one for sale. There were a few that I considered
adding TKS to, but by then I was getting close to the price of a Mooney
TLS/Bravo. So I just bought a Bravo with known ice.
---
Ken Reed
N9124X

[Blanche]

Marco Leon <mmleon(at)yahoo.com> wrote:
>What are some of the most extreme examples of, umm, "investing" have you
>seen and/or heard of in a personal aircraft?

I spent the money and bought an aircraft?

[Doug]

>What are some of the most extreme examples of, umm, "investing" have
you
>seen and/or heard of in a personal aircraft?

Diamond studded Glideslope?