1 Fatal ...r.a.h or r.a.p?

[Montblack]

I sometimes cut-n-paste crash victim's names into Google.groups.rec.aviation
to see if that person has ever posted here. Too ghoulish?

One person's name, about 6 years ago, came up. IIRC, his family was in the
plane.

With the spate of recent crashes it got me wondering, again: People here at
rec.aviation know some of these victims - but have WE lost any of our (r.a.h
& r.a.p) posters in crashes, in the last 8-10 years?


Montblack
I've been around since 1998 - starting in r.a.s.

[Marco Leon]

I don't recall any loss of a member since I started here in 2000. We're a
pretty small group here. There's an even smaller group that posts on a
regular basis. That being said, I believe that this "community" is made up
of pilots that take a very active role in flying safety and therefore
probably safer than most.

Marco (knock on wood) Leon



"Montblack" > wrote in message
...
> I sometimes cut-n-paste crash victim's names into
Google.groups.rec.aviation
> to see if that person has ever posted here. Too ghoulish?
>
> One person's name, about 6 years ago, came up. IIRC, his family was in the
> plane.
>
> With the spate of recent crashes it got me wondering, again: People here
at
> rec.aviation know some of these victims - but have WE lost any of our
(r.a.h
> & r.a.p) posters in crashes, in the last 8-10 years?
>
>
> Montblack
> I've been around since 1998 - starting in r.a.s.
>



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[Peter Freeman]

Just yesterday a guy I know crashed his plane and died. I didn't know
him REAL well but it was either him, or his twin brother who did a
lesson with me a few months ago. That makes 3 people I've known in the
aviation world who have died in some aviation accident. It really
drives the point hom that what we do is extremely dangerous. The risk
is nothing to take lightly.

http://www.herald-dispatch.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060201/NEWS01/602010321

[Dan Luke]

"Peter Freeman" wrote:

> Just yesterday a guy I know crashed his plane and died. I didn't know
> him REAL well but it was either him, or his twin brother who did a
> lesson with me a few months ago. That makes 3 people I've known in the
> aviation world who have died in some aviation accident. It really
> drives the point hom that what we do is extremely dangerous. The risk
> is nothing to take lightly.

I've also known three in only nine years of flying.

In my whole life, I 've only directly known two people who've died in traffic
accidents.

--
Dan
C-172RG at BFM

[Marco Leon]

"Peter Freeman" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> It really drives the point hom that what we do is extremely dangerous. The
risk
> is nothing to take lightly.
>

Not to be taken lightly for sure but "extremely dangerous?" No.

You sound like the uninformed public when you describe it that way.

Marco



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[Paul Tomblin]

In a previous article, "Montblack" > said:
>I sometimes cut-n-paste crash victim's names into Google.groups.rec.aviation
>to see if that person has ever posted here. Too ghoulish?
>
>One person's name, about 6 years ago, came up. IIRC, his family was in the
>plane.

A few years back a guy who was on the same Piper Chat mailing list as me
died in his Cherokee 6, taking most of his family with him. That sucked.
Around about the same time, another member of the list had his plane
partner crash and die in his shared plane.


--
Paul Tomblin > http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/
As far as the laws of mathematics refer to reality, they are not
certain, and as far as they are certain, they do not refer to reality.
-- Albert Einstein

[Gig 601XL Builder]

"Peter Freeman" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>It really
> drives the point hom that what we do is extremely dangerous. The risk
> is nothing to take lightly.
>

26 years flying I can think of 5 pilots I knew that have died due to
aircraft accidents.

By comparison at my 20 year class reunion in 2001, (a class of 350+/-) 8
people had died in car accidents, 2 from heart attacks, 1 from a military
aircraft loss, 2 from AIDS, 3 other/unknown.

Considering the number of pilots I know I'd say it is more dangerous to have
graduated with me than it is being a pilot.

[B a r r y]

Paul Tomblin wrote:

>
> A few years back a guy who was on the same Piper Chat mailing list as me
> died in his Cherokee 6, taking most of his family with him. That sucked.

If that was a Connecticut pilot, and the crash was in Pullayup, WA, I
worked with him.

It certainly does suck...

[Gene Seibel]

Flying is more dangerous than driving. However, I do believe the number
of people we know out of the small population of pilots is probably
inflated due to the fact that we all cross paths at the airport.
--
Gene Seibel
Tales of Flight - http://pad39a.com/gene/tales.html
Because I fly, I envy no one.

[Peter R.]

Gig 601XL Builder <wrDOTgiaconaATcox.net> wrote:

> Considering the number of pilots I know I'd say it is more dangerous to have
> graduated with me than it is being a pilot.

LOL!

--
Peter

[three-eight-hotel]

>> Considering the number of pilots I know I'd say it is more dangerous to have
>> graduated with me than it is being a pilot.

That is funny! I hope I didn't go to school with you!

Todd

[john smith]

> > Just yesterday a guy I know crashed his plane and died. I didn't know
> > him REAL well but it was either him, or his twin brother who did a
> > lesson with me a few months ago. That makes 3 people I've known in the
> > aviation world who have died in some aviation accident. It really
> > drives the point hom that what we do is extremely dangerous. The risk
> > is nothing to take lightly.

> I've also known three in only nine years of flying.
> In my whole life, I 've only directly known two people who've died in traffic
> accidents.

Wow! I have been flying for 25 years. I lose 1-2 on average each year.
Four was the most one year.

[Rachel]

Peter Freeman wrote:
> Just yesterday a guy I know crashed his plane and died. I didn't know
> him REAL well but it was either him, or his twin brother who did a
> lesson with me a few months ago. That makes 3 people I've known in the
> aviation world who have died in some aviation accident. It really
> drives the point hom that what we do is extremely dangerous. The risk
> is nothing to take lightly.

I wouldn't say "extemely dangerous". Most of us are very aware of the
risks and do what we can to minimize them.

[Rachel]

john smith wrote:
>>>Just yesterday a guy I know crashed his plane and died. I didn't know
>>>him REAL well but it was either him, or his twin brother who did a
>>>lesson with me a few months ago. That makes 3 people I've known in the
>>>aviation world who have died in some aviation accident. It really
>>>drives the point hom that what we do is extremely dangerous. The risk
>>>is nothing to take lightly.
>
>
>>I've also known three in only nine years of flying.
>>In my whole life, I 've only directly known two people who've died in traffic
>>accidents.
>
>
> Wow! I have been flying for 25 years. I lose 1-2 on average each year.
> Four was the most one year.

Wow, I've only been flying for five years, but I don't know anyone
personally who has died, and only one plane I've flown has been involved
in a fatal crash.

[Flyingmonk]

Montblack,

One name that comes to mind, never left really, is Gil Armbruster, Dec
1, 1998 ~ mini500.

The Monk

[Darkwing]

"Montblack" > wrote in message
...
>I sometimes cut-n-paste crash victim's names into
>Google.groups.rec.aviation to see if that person has ever posted here. Too
>ghoulish?
>
> One person's name, about 6 years ago, came up. IIRC, his family was in the
> plane.
>
> With the spate of recent crashes it got me wondering, again: People here
> at rec.aviation know some of these victims - but have WE lost any of our
> (r.a.h & r.a.p) posters in crashes, in the last 8-10 years?
>
>
> Montblack
> I've been around since 1998 - starting in r.a.s.

Well considering that probably half or more use "handles" and not their real
name it would be hard to know. I've been flying for around 4 years and I
don't know of anyone that has been in a crash fatal or otherwise and I hope
it always stays that way.

--------------------------------------------
DW

[Paul Tomblin]

In a previous article, said:
>Paul Tomblin wrote:
>> A few years back a guy who was on the same Piper Chat mailing list as me
>> died in his Cherokee 6, taking most of his family with him. That sucked.
>
>If that was a Connecticut pilot, and the crash was in Pullayup, WA, I
>worked with him.

No, this was in the North East.


--
Paul Tomblin > http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/
If men are from Mars and women are from Venus, there's going to be one
big-ass fight over where to set the thermostat.
-- Jim Rosenberg

[Peter R.]

Darkwing <heducksmailTyahoo.com> wrote:

> I've been flying for around 4 years and I
> don't know of anyone that has been in a crash fatal or otherwise and I hope
> it always stays that way.

Me also. I have had my certificate for four years as well but have yet to
experience an acquaintance getting killed in an aviation accident. There
was a fatal Cirrus spin accident in the practice area north of our class C
airport while I was training and both pilots were based at my FBO, but I
didn't know them.

--
Peter

[Morgans]

"Peter Freeman" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Just yesterday a guy I know crashed his plane and died. I didn't know
> him REAL well but it was either him, or his twin brother who did a
> lesson with me a few months ago. That makes 3 people I've known in the
> aviation world who have died in some aviation accident. It really
> drives the point hom that what we do is extremely dangerous. The risk
> is nothing to take lightly.
>
> http://www.herald-dispatch.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060201/NEWS01/602010321

If I read that right, it said he crashed moments after he took off, and he
realized he was low on fuel. Is that what happened, or did the news mess it
up? Did he really take off without checking the fuel levels?
--
Jim in NC

[Gary Drescher]

"Morgans" > wrote in message
...
> "Peter Freeman" > wrote in message
>> http://www.herald-dispatch.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060201/NEWS01/602010321
>
> If I read that right, it said he crashed moments after he took off, and he
> realized he was low on fuel. Is that what happened, or did the news mess
> it up? Did he really take off without checking the fuel levels?

No, the article says he landed in a field because he was low on fuel. He
subsequently refueled and tried to take off, but hit obstacles and crashed.

--Gary

[Morgans]

"Gary Drescher" > wrote in message
. ..
>
> "Morgans" > wrote in message
> ...
>> "Peter Freeman" > wrote in message
>>> http://www.herald-dispatch.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060201/NEWS01/602010321
>>
>> If I read that right, it said he crashed moments after he took off, and
>> he realized he was low on fuel. Is that what happened, or did the news
>> mess it up? Did he really take off without checking the fuel levels?
>
> No, the article says he landed in a field because he was low on fuel. He
> subsequently refueled and tried to take off, but hit obstacles and
> crashed.
>
Boy, did I misread that!
--
Jim in NC

[Kevin Dunlevy]

I spoke with an FAA investigator regarding a potential incident a few years
ago. He told me he'd lost his enthusiasm for general aviation after
investigating too many fatal incidents. I can understand his sentiment.

On the other hand, I don't fear death. Death will come to us all. The only
thing I fear is doing something stupid that deprives my children of my
income potential. Kevin Dunlevy


"Montblack" > wrote in message
...
> I sometimes cut-n-paste crash victim's names into
Google.groups.rec.aviation
> to see if that person has ever posted here. Too ghoulish?
>
> One person's name, about 6 years ago, came up. IIRC, his family was in the
> plane.
>
> With the spate of recent crashes it got me wondering, again: People here
at
> rec.aviation know some of these victims - but have WE lost any of our
(r.a.h
> & r.a.p) posters in crashes, in the last 8-10 years?
>
>
> Montblack
> I've been around since 1998 - starting in r.a.s.
>

[Wizard of Draws]

On 2/2/06 2:43 PM, in article , "Dan Luke"
> wrote:

>
> "Peter Freeman" wrote:
>
>> Just yesterday a guy I know crashed his plane and died. I didn't know
>> him REAL well but it was either him, or his twin brother who did a
>> lesson with me a few months ago. That makes 3 people I've known in the
>> aviation world who have died in some aviation accident. It really
>> drives the point hom that what we do is extremely dangerous. The risk
>> is nothing to take lightly.
>
> I've also known three in only nine years of flying.
>
> In my whole life, I 've only directly known two people who've died in traffic
> accidents.

In 6 years I've known only one. One of my primary instructors was killed on
an intro flight. I don't believe the cause was ever found.
--
Jeff 'The Wizard of Draws' Bucchino

Cartoons with a Touch of Magic�
http://www.wizardofdraws.com

More Cartoons with a Touch of Magic�
http://www.cartoonclipart.com

[B.E.]

In article . com>,
"Peter Freeman" > wrote:

> Just yesterday a guy I know crashed his plane and died. I didn't know
> him REAL well but it was either him, or his twin brother who did a
> lesson with me a few months ago. That makes 3 people I've known in the
> aviation world who have died in some aviation accident. It really
> drives the point hom that what we do is extremely dangerous. The risk
> is nothing to take lightly.
>
> http://www.herald-dispatch.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060201/NEWS01/6020
> 10321

i just got the bad news phone call tonight. great guy (and so is his
brother). that makes three for me too, and it's very possible that it's
the same three that you knew (all three in the past nine months, and
i've only been flying for less than two years).

[Don Tuite]

I must be kinda stand-offish. 38 years now since I got my llicense. .
.. and:

1. Before I started flying, the FBO's partner and his family were
killed. Rough engine at night, passed up numerous airports, totally
lost power on long final to home airport. Set her down in a "black
area," which was a cut for power pylons. Hung upside down from a power
line until everybody burned to death.

2. 30+ years ago: Didn't now him. Friend of another pilot who flew
out of the same FBO, stalled/spun a Luscombe 8A on take-off. The 8A's
the one where you can't pitch the nose too high on takeoff or you'll
uncover the fuel intake in the tank, which is behind the pilot's head.

Those are the only fatals, and I didn't directly know the people.
Recently, I heard of three gear-ups by the same guy -- one on the
first flght after the rebuilt after anothe gear-up. I also heard of a
guy at our airport rolling up a shiny restored Waco UPF 7 in a botched
X-wind landing. None of those incidents involved more than
superficial injuries.

I don't personally know any dead former motorcyclists, either. I
know, second-hand, some dead blue-water sailors, though.

I may be the opposite of Gig-whatzis, the guy you don't want to have
been in the same graduating class with.

Don

[Toks Desalu]

Interesting-

I have been flying since 1998 and I do not know anyone who died in plane
crash. However, I knew three pilots who survived in plane crash.

One of them is my former flight instructor. She was in a plane crash with
one of her student. The flight school did pretty good job keep it secret,
but I later learned that the engine seized and the instructor couldn't
restart the engine. In my opinion, she made a mistake by allowing her
student to make a landing attempt on the farm field. The student got frozen
on short final and rest is history. Good thing, they both walked away
without any injuries. That instructor flew with me on a lesson flight two
days later. Tough lady!

Other two pilots, that I knew, crashed together. They got cut off on short
final when a plane on the ground taxied into active runway. The plane
stalled when one of the pilots attempted to go around and could not recover
in time. They both received serious injuries. I saw one of them at a local
event two months later and the injures looked pretty bad. The only thing he
talked about that night is getting back into the air as soon as doctor
clears him.

Toks Desalu


Two Other
"Montblack" > wrote in message
...
> I sometimes cut-n-paste crash victim's names into
Google.groups.rec.aviation
> to see if that person has ever posted here. Too ghoulish?
>
> One person's name, about 6 years ago, came up. IIRC, his family was in the
> plane.
>
> With the spate of recent crashes it got me wondering, again: People here
at
> rec.aviation know some of these victims - but have WE lost any of our
(r.a.h
> & r.a.p) posters in crashes, in the last 8-10 years?
>
>
> Montblack
> I've been around since 1998 - starting in r.a.s.
>

[Jay Honeck]

>> Wow! I have been flying for 25 years. I lose 1-2 on average each year.
>> Four was the most one year.
>
> Wow, I've only been flying for five years, but I don't know anyone
> personally who has died, and only one plane I've flown has been involved
> in a fatal crash.

I've been flying for 11 years, and I don't know anyone personally who has
died, either.

An old clapped out Cherokee 140 we used to rent was demolished by a student
pilot in a fatal crash, but that's the only accident of any consequence that
I can claim a "connection" to -- and that's a pretty distant connection.

If I had lost 22 friends to accidents in those 11 years, I would not be
flying.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Mortimer Schnerd, RN]

Jay Honeck wrote:
> If I had lost 22 friends to accidents in those 11 years, I would not be
> flying.


If I had lost 22 friends to accidents, I wouldn't leave the house. Hell, I
count myself lucky to have two friends that aren't nurses. The friends I have
at work are subject to employment... ie, if they leave our current place of
work, we will lose track of one another.

As for flying, I personally knew three people who've died in airplanes... two of
them died in the same accident. None of them were friends but I was friendly
with all of them and vice versa.



--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN

[Matt Barrow]

"Mortimer Schnerd, RN" > wrote in message
...
> Jay Honeck wrote:
>> If I had lost 22 friends to accidents in those 11 years, I would not be
>> flying.
>
>
> If I had lost 22 friends to accidents, I wouldn't leave the house. Hell,
> I count myself lucky to have two friends that aren't nurses. The friends
> I have at work are subject to employment... ie, if they leave our current
> place of work, we will lose track of one another.
>
> As for flying, I personally knew three people who've died in airplanes...
> two of them died in the same accident. None of them were friends but I
> was friendly with all of them and vice versa.

I've known one person killed in an airplane and that was our family doctor
(and his son) who disappeared in his Bonanza over Lake Michigan when I was
12 (1967).

I knew three people killed in car accidents (my sisters MOH at her wedding),
and two relatives, both from severe DUI.

OTOH, my daughters high school class lost three kids in three TA's over the
last two years before she graduated (both my sons classes escaped
unscathed).


Matt Barrow

[[email protected]]

I'm honestly not trying to make light of the fact that the guy
died...BUT....out of a field, after running out of gas...hit a pole....

a SAFE aviator would not have had the fuel issue to begin with, and if
a SAFE aviator had a fuel issue and landed in the field, he damn sure
would have cleared the take off path well before taking off. I feel
sorry for the guy and all, but wow, seems all together too
preventable...

[Mike Weller]

On 2 Feb 2006 13:27:15 -0800, "three-eight-hotel"
> wrote:

>>> Considering the number of pilots I know I'd say it is more dangerous to have
>>> graduated with me than it is being a pilot.
>
>That is funny! I hope I didn't go to school with you!
>
>Todd

Yes really funny. Three of my classmates committed suicide.

Mike Weller

[Montblack]

("Mike Weller" wrote)
> Yes really funny. Three of my classmates committed suicide.


Airplane (1980)


Montblack

[Prime]

My instructor was killed in a midair on the NEXT FLIGHT after I soloed. It
shook me up real bad.

I spent a few weeks researching the statistics and concluded that GA flying
was about 10x more dangerous (for fatalities) on a per-mile basis than
driving.

Yet I still decided to continue my flying. That was 18 years ago.

I do actually fly less because I don't want to have too high an exposure to
the risks. I fly when I want to but I don't push it.

I've also known one automobile fatality personally in my lifetime.

[Dylan Smith]

On 2006-02-02, Rachel > wrote:
> Wow, I've only been flying for five years, but I don't know anyone
> personally who has died, and only one plane I've flown has been involved
> in a fatal crash.

I've been flying since 1997 and have over 1000 hours, but I don't know
anyone who's died in a plane crash, nor (to my knowledge) have any of
the planes I've flown been crashed badly enough to be totaled (and
before you ask, the ones that have been bent weren't bent by me!)

--
Dylan Smith, Port St Mary, Isle of Man
Flying: http://www.dylansmith.net
Oolite-Linux: an Elite tribute: http://oolite-linux.berlios.de
Frontier Elite Universe: http://www.alioth.net

[Dylan Smith]

On 2006-02-04, Prime > wrote:
> I do actually fly less because I don't want to have too high an exposure to
> the risks. I fly when I want to but I don't push it.

You are probably inadvertently *increasing* your risk by doing that.
With driving, risk generally goes up with exposure. With flying, risk
generally goes down with exposure (greater recency of experience). Most
aircraft accidents are not caused by '**** happens', but by pilot
error/misjudgement. The less recency of experience (particularly with
IFR and night flying) you have, the greater your risk is.

--
Dylan Smith, Port St Mary, Isle of Man
Flying: http://www.dylansmith.net
Oolite-Linux: an Elite tribute: http://oolite-linux.berlios.de
Frontier Elite Universe: http://www.alioth.net

[Prime]

Dylan Smith > posted the exciting message
:

> On 2006-02-04, Prime > wrote:
>> I do actually fly less because I don't want to have too high an
>> exposure to the risks. I fly when I want to but I don't push it.
>
> You are probably inadvertently *increasing* your risk by doing that.
> With driving, risk generally goes up with exposure. With flying, risk
> generally goes down with exposure (greater recency of experience).
> Most aircraft accidents are not caused by '**** happens', but by pilot
> error/misjudgement. The less recency of experience (particularly with
> IFR and night flying) you have, the greater your risk is.
>

I understand what you are saying, but I don't buy that it's that simple. If
I fly rarely, then I am less proficient and probably more dangerous. If I
fly at some reasonable level then I have a certain decent level of
proficiency. If I fly 10x more than that my proficiency gets a bit better,
but my exposure goes up by a factor of 10.

Using your reasoning, I should fly as much as I can and all those hours
will lower my risk.

[Big John]

Prime

When I was active in Fighters in the USAF I ran a study to justify the
dollars to be budgeted for flying hours for Fighter pilots in a year.

I found that 18 hours a month was the sweat spot. Less than that the
accidents were higher due to lack of proficiency. More than the 18
hours the rate went up due to the additional exposure.

I'm sure someone could run a similar analysis for the different GA
type of aircraft to give the sweet spot for them.

Big John
`````````````````````````````````````````````````` ````````````````````````````

On Mon, 06 Feb 2006 22:44:49 -0600, Prime >
wrote:

>Dylan Smith > posted the exciting message
:
>
>> On 2006-02-04, Prime > wrote:
>>> I do actually fly less because I don't want to have too high an
>>> exposure to the risks. I fly when I want to but I don't push it.
>>
>> You are probably inadvertently *increasing* your risk by doing that.
>> With driving, risk generally goes up with exposure. With flying, risk
>> generally goes down with exposure (greater recency of experience).
>> Most aircraft accidents are not caused by '**** happens', but by pilot
>> error/misjudgement. The less recency of experience (particularly with
>> IFR and night flying) you have, the greater your risk is.
>>
>
>I understand what you are saying, but I don't buy that it's that simple. If
>I fly rarely, then I am less proficient and probably more dangerous. If I
>fly at some reasonable level then I have a certain decent level of
>proficiency. If I fly 10x more than that my proficiency gets a bit better,
>but my exposure goes up by a factor of 10.
>
>Using your reasoning, I should fly as much as I can and all those hours
>will lower my risk.

[Jay Honeck]

> When I was active in Fighters in the USAF I ran a study to justify the
> dollars to be budgeted for flying hours for Fighter pilots in a year.
>
> I found that 18 hours a month was the sweat spot. Less than that the
> accidents were higher due to lack of proficiency. More than the 18
> hours the rate went up due to the additional exposure.

Wow. When you think of how few hours most GA pilots actually fly, it's
amazing that the accident rate isn't higher than it is...

Of course, GA flying isn't military flying, but still...
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Dylan Smith]

On 2006-02-07, Prime > wrote:
> Using your reasoning, I should fly as much as I can and all those hours
> will lower my risk.

You've got it exactly. Fly as often and as much as you possibly can :-)

--
Dylan Smith, Port St Mary, Isle of Man
Flying: http://www.dylansmith.net
Oolite-Linux: an Elite tribute: http://oolite-linux.berlios.de
Frontier Elite Universe: http://www.alioth.net