Another Perfect Gear-Up

[Marco Leon]

Happened at my local airport. Listened to the whole thing online and the
archives are available at LiveATC.net (Jan 28th, KFRG, around 9AM).
Apparently a hydraulic failure. You need to be a Cablevision customer for
the news site so hopefully this direct link will work for everyone.

http://ondemand1.cv.net/news12/GLIEMELT.asx

Marco



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[Morgans]

"Marco Leon" <mmleon(at)yahoo.com> wrote in message
...
> Happened at my local airport. Listened to the whole thing online and the
> archives are available at LiveATC.net (Jan 28th, KFRG, around 9AM).
> Apparently a hydraulic failure. You need to be a Cablevision customer for
> the news site so hopefully this direct link will work for everyone.
>
> http://ondemand1.cv.net/news12/GLIEMELT.asx
\
It looked to me, like he got the engine stopped, just before touchdown,
also.
--
Jim in NC

[[email protected]]

Gear up landings are no big deal for a typical GA plane. When I worked
in operations at a regional airport I was a trained ARFF responder and
none of the wheels-up landings I ever responded to involved any fire.
We'd just roll out the trucks into position and wait for the plane to
land and skid to a stop. But it still sucks for that guy with the 210 -
I guess the gear hand pump was inop? Engine teardown, new prop, belly
skins.. ouch.. Not to mention the loss of the airplane for X months for
repair. Truly a bad day, but could have been worse.

[John Clonts]

>land and skid to a stop. But it still sucks for that guy with the 210 -
>I guess the gear hand pump was inop?

If the hydraulic fluid has been lost, the gear hand pump does you no
good....
--
Cheers,
John Clonts
Temple, Texas
N7NZ (C210M)

[John Huthmaker]

So if there is a system failure in the airplane (like this example), is it
the pilots responsibility for paying the repairs? Or is it the FBO who
should have been maintaining the aircraft?

This is a serious question, because I really dont know that answer and Im
curious.

--
John Huthmaker
PPL-SEL P-28-161

http://www.cogentnetworking.com
"John Clonts" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> >land and skid to a stop. But it still sucks for that guy with the 210 -
>>I guess the gear hand pump was inop?
>
> If the hydraulic fluid has been lost, the gear hand pump does you no
> good....
> --
> Cheers,
> John Clonts
> Temple, Texas
> N7NZ (C210M)
>

[Marco Leon]

"John Huthmaker" > wrote in message
nk.net...
> So if there is a system failure in the airplane (like this example), is it
> the pilots responsibility for paying the repairs? Or is it the FBO who
> should have been maintaining the aircraft?
>
> This is a serious question, because I really dont know that answer and Im
> curious.

The plane is owned by a doctor and I believed leased back to an operator. I
believe the insurance of the owner pays as long as the pilot is qualified
under the policy. In this case, I think it was the son of the FBO owner
flying. If the insurance $ is not enough to cover all the expenses, then I
think the owner can sue the pilot for the rest. Given the obvious equipment
malfunction however, that wouldn't make much sense

Marco



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[Morgans]

> But it still sucks for that guy with the 210 -
> I guess the gear hand pump was inop? Engine teardown, new prop, belly
> skins.. ouch.. Not to mention the loss of the airplane for X months for
> repair. Truly a bad day, but could have been worse.

I'm not convinced that he is going to need a new prop and engine teardown.
It sure looked like he stopped the prop before touchdown.
--
Jim in NC

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

> wrote in message
ups.com...
> Gear up landings are no big deal for a typical GA plane.
<...>

In a Navion, you wreck the prop and grind the ends off the inboard flap
hinges.
No damage to the skin - assuming a reasonable paved surface.
(The nose wheel hangs down a couple inches even when retracted.)

--
Geoff
the sea hawk at wow way d0t com
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Spell checking is left as an excercise for the reader.

[Ron Natalie]

Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe wrote:
> > wrote in message
> ups.com...
>> Gear up landings are no big deal for a typical GA plane.
> <...>
>
> In a Navion, you wreck the prop and grind the ends off the inboard flap
> hinges.
> No damage to the skin - assuming a reasonable paved surface.
> (The nose wheel hangs down a couple inches even when retracted.)
>
You break the step off. Mine has a weld in the middle of it from
some previous owner's escapade. You also loose your antennas.

There were pictures from the "belly landing contest" at one of
the fly-ins, get a few guys to lift up a wing, prop some straw
bales under it, drop the gear, and you can roll it away.

[Robert M. Gary]

Not sure why he ran away from the plane so fast. If it were my plane
I'd be right there, making sure an overzealous firefighter didn't do
anything stupid, like spray it with a high pressure hose.

-Robert

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

"Ron Natalie" > wrote in message
m...
> Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe wrote:
>> > wrote in message
>> ups.com...
>>> Gear up landings are no big deal for a typical GA plane.
>> <...>
>>
>> In a Navion, you wreck the prop and grind the ends off the inboard flap
>> hinges.
>> No damage to the skin - assuming a reasonable paved surface.
>> (The nose wheel hangs down a couple inches even when retracted.)
>>
> You break the step off. Mine has a weld in the middle of it from
> some previous owner's escapade. You also loose your antennas.
>
> There were pictures from the "belly landing contest" at one of
> the fly-ins, get a few guys to lift up a wing, prop some straw
> bales under it, drop the gear, and you can roll it away.

Oh, yea, forgot the step. Ain't it great getting old. I'm told that the
second thing to go is your memory. I forget what the first thing is.

But, all in all, if you want to do a gear up landing, a Navion is probably
one of the better airplanes to do it in. :-)

--
Geoff
the sea hawk at wow way d0t com
remove spaces and make the obvious substitutions to reply by mail
Spell checking is left as an excercise for the reader.

[[email protected]]

>>>I'm not convinced that he is going to need a new prop and engine teardown.
It sure looked like he stopped the prop before touchdown<<<

I tried watching the clip again but couldn't view it. IIRC the prop was
spinning when he landed - I don't know if that's considered sudden
stoppage. It looked like all three blades got bent up pretty good. As
far as the engine, if the prop was just windmilling and the engine
wasn't making any power, maybe it wouldn't need a teardown. I'd assume
insurance would cover it minus any deductible.

That reminds me of why I like the Piper gear system better. If there's
any loss of system pressure the gear free-falls.

[Ron Natalie]

Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe wrote:

> But, all in all, if you want to do a gear up landing, a Navion is probably
> one of the better airplanes to do it in. :-)
>
>
A Seabee is one of the better ones. You don't even ding the prop. If
you set it down nice and the surface isn't too rough all you do is
scracth the paint.

[Ron Natalie]

wrote:
>>>> I'm not convinced that he is going to need a new prop and engine teardown.
> It sure looked like he stopped the prop before touchdown<<<
>
> I tried watching the clip again but couldn't view it. IIRC the prop was
> spinning when he landed - I don't know if that's considered sudden
> stoppage.

As far as Lycoming and Continental are concerned anytime the prop
touches something other than air it requires a teardown. When
I had my engine failure, the prop just got scuffed in the dirt
when I ran off the edge of the runway. It was enough for the
insurance company to opt for the tear down (they wouldn't have
otherwise).

[Morgans]

"Ron Natalie" > wrote

> When
> I had my engine failure, the prop just got scuffed in the dirt
> when I ran off the edge of the runway. It was enough for the
> insurance company to opt for the tear down (they wouldn't have
> otherwise).

Was the engine still rotating, or already dead stopped?
--
Jim in NC

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

"Ron Natalie" > wrote in message
m...
> Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe wrote:
>
>> But, all in all, if you want to do a gear up landing, a Navion is
>> probably one of the better airplanes to do it in. :-)
>>
>>
> A Seabee is one of the better ones. You don't even ding the prop. If
> you set it down nice and the surface isn't too rough all you do is scracth
> the paint.

Yea, an even better choice.

How is the Seabee for landing in the water with the gear down? Probably
better than the Navion, eh?

--
Geoff
the sea hawk at wow way d0t com
remove spaces and make the obvious substitutions to reply by mail
Spell checking is left as an excercise for the reader.

[Ron Natalie]

Morgans wrote:
>
> "Ron Natalie" > wrote
>> When
>> I had my engine failure, the prop just got scuffed in the dirt
>> when I ran off the edge of the runway. It was enough for the
>> insurance company to opt for the tear down (they wouldn't have
>> otherwise).
>
> Was the engine still rotating, or already dead stopped?

Windmilling.