Bonanza Down in AZ

[[email protected]]

CBS noon news reported the crash of a Bonanza out of the Lufthansa
Flight Training School at Goodyear Airport. The student pilot was a 22
yr-old woman, here from Germany since December, with 49 total hours, 5+
solo hours, on what was supposed to be an hour-long solo flight. No
emergency radio calls were made, and the report said there is no
indication of what may have gone wrong so far.

[Marco Leon]

It sounds like they're doing primary training in a Bonanza. Isn't that
asking for trouble?

Marco


> wrote in message
...
> CBS noon news reported the crash of a Bonanza out of the Lufthansa
> Flight Training School at Goodyear Airport. The student pilot was a 22
> yr-old woman, here from Germany since December, with 49 total hours, 5+
> solo hours, on what was supposed to be an hour-long solo flight. No
> emergency radio calls were made, and the report said there is no
> indication of what may have gone wrong so far.



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[[email protected]]

Marco Leon <mmleon(at)yahoo.com> wrote:
> It sounds like they're doing primary training in a Bonanza. Isn't that
> asking for trouble?
>
> Marco

That was my first thought, too.

It's been said you can't attach a lot of significance to any particular
number because every pilot is different; nevertheless, a student pilot
soloing a Bonanza with just over 40 hours ... most of us are thinking
the same thing.

[john smith]

> > It sounds like they're doing primary training in a Bonanza. Isn't that
> > asking for trouble?

> That was my first thought, too.
> It's been said you can't attach a lot of significance to any particular
> number because every pilot is different; nevertheless, a student pilot
> soloing a Bonanza with just over 40 hours ... most of us are thinking
> the same thing.

I am not certain there is a problem. They have been training their
students this way for many years.
Given the selection process the students must pass through just to get
in the program places those selected in the upper intelligence level.
A structured program will train the student the procedures to fly the
aircraft of choice.
Having experience with no other aircraft has the advantage that a given
situation will not confuse or distract the student from the necessary
procedures. The response should be automatic.
("Train like you fight, fight like you train")

[Bob Gardner]

Japan Airlines used to train in Bonanzas/King Airs in Napa, CA. No accidents
that I am aware of. For all I know they still do.

Bob Gardner

> wrote in message
...
> Marco Leon <mmleon(at)yahoo.com> wrote:
>> It sounds like they're doing primary training in a Bonanza. Isn't that
>> asking for trouble?
>>
>> Marco
>
> That was my first thought, too.
>
> It's been said you can't attach a lot of significance to any particular
> number because every pilot is different; nevertheless, a student pilot
> soloing a Bonanza with just over 40 hours ... most of us are thinking
> the same thing.

[nooneimportant]

"john smith" > wrote in message
...
>> > It sounds like they're doing primary training in a Bonanza. Isn't that
>> > asking for trouble?
>
>> That was my first thought, too.
>> It's been said you can't attach a lot of significance to any particular
>> number because every pilot is different; nevertheless, a student pilot
>> soloing a Bonanza with just over 40 hours ... most of us are thinking
>> the same thing.
>
> I am not certain there is a problem. They have been training their
> students this way for many years.
> Given the selection process the students must pass through just to get
> in the program places those selected in the upper intelligence level.
> A structured program will train the student the procedures to fly the
> aircraft of choice.
> Having experience with no other aircraft has the advantage that a given
> situation will not confuse or distract the student from the necessary
> procedures. The response should be automatic.
> ("Train like you fight, fight like you train")
>

Downside is that they have a procedure for everything, and nothing is to
intterupt said procedure. A specific list of things that must be done on
upwind, crosswind, downwind, base, and heaven forbid they are done out of
order. As a result they usually fly B-52 patterns. The school I am at
teaches both JAA and FAA students, and the JAA guys are in the Arrow for
most of the training, think that there is a JAA requirement for a certain
ammount of compelx time before they do their commercial ride, as a result
they do SOME flying in a non-complex machine, but all the rest is complex or
simulator. It's a very lucrative route for instructors tho. But by the
time i have enough hours to qualify to teach under JAA i will prob be with a
regional carrier. Has anyone heard of the outcome from this accident yet?
Haven't seen anything on local Phoenix news....

[[email protected]]

"nooneimportant" > wrote:
> Has anyone heard of the outcome from this accident yet?
> Haven't seen anything on local Phoenix news....

The outcome?
It just happened yesterday, and the wreckage was found just after
midnight.

[[email protected]]

> > > It sounds like they're doing primary training in a Bonanza. Isn't that
> > > asking for trouble?
>
> > That was my first thought, too.
> > It's been said you can't attach a lot of significance to any particular
> > number because every pilot is different; nevertheless, a student pilot
> > soloing a Bonanza with just over 40 hours ... most of us are thinking
> > the same thing.
>
john smith > wrote:
> I am not certain there is a problem. They have been training their
> students this way for many years.

Their stats are probably good, and you're right, it's wrong to make any
assumptions.

[Bob Moore]

> It's been said you can't attach a lot of significance to any
> particular number because every pilot is different;
> nevertheless, a student pilot soloing a Bonanza with just over
> 40 hours ... most of us are thinking the same thing.

Not me! During primary training, I soloed a Bonanza with a total
of 15 hours in the log book....well, we called it a T-34, but I
was doing solo spins in it before I hit 20 hours, and.....I was
getting paid to do it! :-)

Bob Moore

[John Clear]

In article >,
Bob Gardner > wrote:
>Japan Airlines used to train in Bonanzas/King Airs in Napa, CA. No accidents
>that I am aware of. For all I know they still do.

They still do. There is a whole ramp full of Bonanzas/Barons with
JAL logos on the tail. I dont recall seeing any King Airs, but
they might be there too.

John
--
John Clear - http://www.clear-prop.org/

[George]

Those were the days, my friend. I was a slow student. It took me 17 hours to in
a T-34.

On Thu, 02 Feb 2006 23:14:41 GMT, Bob Moore > wrote:


>
>> It's been said you can't attach a lot of significance to any
>> particular number because every pilot is different;
>> nevertheless, a student pilot soloing a Bonanza with just over
>> 40 hours ... most of us are thinking the same thing.
>
>Not me! During primary training, I soloed a Bonanza with a total
>of 15 hours in the log book....well, we called it a T-34, but I
>was doing solo spins in it before I hit 20 hours, and.....I was
>getting paid to do it! :-)
>
>Bob Moore

George

How much would an airplane cost, if it were designed by engineers and NOT by the government?

[Big John]

More War stories,

They checked an individual, with no prior flying time, out in a P-80
in about 10 hours in a comedy of errors at Willie in early 50's.

If people are really interested, I'll tell the story but will take me
a while to type an abbreviated version in.

Big John
`````````````````````````````````````````````````` `````````````

On Thu, 2 Feb 2006 14:19:59 -0800, "Bob Gardner" >
wrote:

>Japan Airlines used to train in Bonanzas/King Airs in Napa, CA. No accidents
>that I am aware of. For all I know they still do.
>
>Bob Gardner
>
> wrote in message
...
>> Marco Leon <mmleon(at)yahoo.com> wrote:
>>> It sounds like they're doing primary training in a Bonanza. Isn't that
>>> asking for trouble?
>>>
>>> Marco
>>
>> That was my first thought, too.
>>
>> It's been said you can't attach a lot of significance to any particular
>> number because every pilot is different; nevertheless, a student pilot
>> soloing a Bonanza with just over 40 hours ... most of us are thinking
>> the same thing.
>

[JJS]

"Big John" > wrote in message ...
>
> More War stories,
>
> They checked an individual, with no prior flying time, out in a P-80
> in about 10 hours in a comedy of errors at Willie in early 50's.
>
> If people are really interested, I'll tell the story but will take me
> a while to type an abbreviated version in.
>
> Big John

I'd sure like to hear it, Big John!

Joe Schneider
N8437R



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[[email protected]]

>>>How much would an airplane cost, if it were designed by engineers and NOT by the government? <<<

Interesting thought. Last I knew, airplanes WERE designed by engineers.
Automobiles are another story entirely.

[Matt Barrow]

"JJS" <jschneider@remove socks cebridge.net> wrote in message
...
>
> "Big John" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> More War stories,
>>
>> They checked an individual, with no prior flying time, out in a P-80
>> in about 10 hours in a comedy of errors at Willie in early 50's.
>>
>> If people are really interested, I'll tell the story but will take me
>> a while to type an abbreviated version in.
>>
>> Big John
>
> I'd sure like to hear it, Big John!
>
Ditto!!

[Marco Leon]

So JAL takes zero-time students all the way through to the right seat of a
121 operation? Must be a cut-throat admission process.

Taking zero-time students into a Bonanza still seems like learning to run
before walking to me. Even the US Air Force Academy doesn't start out their
zero cadets in their T-34's.

Marco "Maybe I'm just jealous" Leon


"John Clear" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> Bob Gardner > wrote:
> >Japan Airlines used to train in Bonanzas/King Airs in Napa, CA. No
accidents
> >that I am aware of. For all I know they still do.
>
> They still do. There is a whole ramp full of Bonanzas/Barons with
> JAL logos on the tail. I dont recall seeing any King Airs, but
> they might be there too.
>
> John
> --
> John Clear - http://www.clear-prop.org/
>



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[Jules]

Marco Leon wrote:

> It sounds like they're doing primary training in a Bonanza. Isn't that
> asking for trouble?
>
There is a school in Canda that uses Bonanzas and Barons. What a way to
learn!

[Montblack]

("Big John" wrote)
> More War stories,
>
> They checked an individual, with no prior flying time, out in a P-80 in
> about 10 hours in a comedy of errors at Willie in early 50's.
>
> If people are really interested, I'll tell the story but will take me a
> while to type an abbreviated version in.


Hunt and peck with two fingers and type us the long version. <g>

Thanks.


Montblack

[john smith]

> Taking zero-time students into a Bonanza still seems like learning to run
> before walking to me. Even the US Air Force Academy doesn't start out their
> zero cadets in their T-34's.

Academy flight training on again - Airman's World
Airman, *Feb, 2003 *by Tech. Sgt. Ken Wright

U.S. AIR FORCE ACADEMY, Colo.-After a five-year absence from the Academy
airfield, the school's introductory flight training is at full throttle
again.
In November, 12 second lieutenants from the class of 2002 became the
first fledgling pilots to take part in the new program.
The academy started training pilots in the 1960s. But after three cadets
and three instructors died in 1997 accidents, the program was suspended.
Then the Air Force started to see attrition rates skyrocket at
specialized undergraduate pilot training bases. That sent a clear
message for the need to restart the program, Air Force officials said.
The program prescreens cadets before they go to specialized
undergraduate pilot training. That one-year training is costly.
"Without a prescreening process, we found attrition rates at
[specialized undergraduate pilot training] almost tripled," said Col.
Brian Bishop, 34th Operations Group commander.
Now cadets who want to become pilots must first fly single-engine
airplanes. This prescreening helps academy officials decide if a cadet
has the stuff to make it through pilot training.
Continue article
ADVERTISEMENT

The academy did have an alternate introductory program. In 1998 it
started sending cadets and recent graduates to civilian airfields for
introductory flight training. That improved the attrition rates at the
next level of flight training. But officials realized that without
direct military oversight, a critical part of training future combat
pilots was missing.
The Air Force felt that including some aspects of military pilot
training-like formal stand-up briefings, pilot checklists, and standards
for reacting to emergencies-would better prepare students for
specialized undergraduate pilot training. Plus, an "on-base" program
would provide more time for their busy schedule.
In July 2001, the academy announced the new program to bring
introductory flight training back to the academy's airfield.
The academy launched the new program under a contract with Embry-Riddle
Aeronautical University, which will provide civilian instructors. The
old program had military instructor pilots.
"Although students will receive guidance primarily from Embry-Riddle
instructors, Air Force pilots will continue to check the progress cadets
make throughout their training," said Ma]. Kevin Mastin, director of
operations for the 557th Flying Training Squadron.
"A military pilot is going to use a plane to conduct war," Mastin said.
"We must make sure they are prepared to fly for the military. If we see
a trend with a student pilot, such as high anxiety or continued air
sickness, the student might be encouraged to take a different career
path."
Student pilots must log 50 hours behind the stick in a Diamond Katana
DA20-C1 Falcon aircraft to graduate. Before they only had to have 18 to
25 hours. Graduates receive a Federal Aviation Administration private
pilot license.

[Jules]

Big John wrote:

> More War stories,
>
> They checked an individual, with no prior flying time, out in a P-80
> in about 10 hours in a comedy of errors at Willie in early 50's.
>
> If people are really interested, I'll tell the story but will take me
> a while to type an abbreviated version in.
>
> Big John


Well now you have to!

[Ron Lee]

>Student pilots must log 50 hours behind the stick in a Diamond Katana
>DA20-C1 Falcon aircraft to graduate. Before they only had to have 18 to
>25 hours. Graduates receive a Federal Aviation Administration private
>pilot license.

I don't know what they mean by "before." We had plenty of the Academy
students at Meadwow Lake and I was told that they had to complete the
requirements for a civil private pilot ticket to graduate. That
would be more than 18-25 hours.

Ron Lee

[BTIZ]

That's what the Lufthansa Flight School does..
Primary Training in a Bonanza..
not any different from the Air Force using T-37s to the Navy using T-34Cs
BT

"Marco Leon" <mmleon(at)yahoo.com> wrote in message
...
> It sounds like they're doing primary training in a Bonanza. Isn't that
> asking for trouble?
>
> Marco
>
>
> > wrote in message
> ...
>> CBS noon news reported the crash of a Bonanza out of the Lufthansa
>> Flight Training School at Goodyear Airport. The student pilot was a 22
>> yr-old woman, here from Germany since December, with 49 total hours, 5+
>> solo hours, on what was supposed to be an hour-long solo flight. No
>> emergency radio calls were made, and the report said there is no
>> indication of what may have gone wrong so far.
>
>
>
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[George]

Almost everything is designed by engineers. My point is they could do it better
and cheaper, without so much government help.

On 3 Feb 2006 06:16:34 -0800, " >
wrote:

>>>>How much would an airplane cost, if it were designed by engineers and NOT by the government? <<<
>
>Interesting thought. Last I knew, airplanes WERE designed by engineers.
>Automobiles are another story entirely.

George

How much would an airplane cost, if it were designed by engineers and NOT by the government?

[Doug]

>How much would an airplane cost, if it were designed by engineers and NOT by the government?

Take a look at the price of an RV (completed) experimental vs the price
of an equivalent certified plane and you will get an idea. Basically
its about $80k vs $160k or thereabouts. There ARE some things about
factory planes that are "better" (arguable), like consistency of build
and support for parts. Factory aircraft also have a better safety
record. But the above price gives you an idea.

I know that Wipair quotes the STC for a set of $40k floats at about
$15k which is supposed to be the cost of the FAA certification. Of
course those are floats, not aircraft......

It's really hard to say exactly.....

[Prime]

(John Clear) posted the exciting message
:

> In article >,
> Bob Gardner > wrote:
>>Japan Airlines used to train in Bonanzas/King Airs in Napa, CA. No
>>accidents that I am aware of. For all I know they still do.
>

You should hear the radio calls! We're in socal, but have flown up that way
on occasion. ATC must be used to it, but the accents are very thick and the
entire effect is somewhat comical (but potentially dangerous due to
language barriers).

[John Doe]

My first thought is WTF is she doing in a Bonanza?

> wrote in message
...
> CBS noon news reported the crash of a Bonanza out of the Lufthansa
> Flight Training School at Goodyear Airport. The student pilot was a 22
> yr-old woman, here from Germany since December, with 49 total hours, 5+
> solo hours, on what was supposed to be an hour-long solo flight. No
> emergency radio calls were made, and the report said there is no
> indication of what may have gone wrong so far.

[[email protected]]

John Doe > wrote:
> My first thought is WTF is she doing in a Bonanza?

Mine was similar. Seems we're in the minority.

[Dan Luke]

> wrote:

> John Doe > wrote:
>> My first thought is WTF is she doing in a Bonanza?
>
> Mine was similar. Seems we're in the minority.

What's the problem? I've got very little Bo' time, but it seemed to me
to be the easiest airplane to fly that I'd ever flown--particularly in
the landing phase. Wonderfully harmonized controls.

If you could manage to remember to put the gear up and down, I think a
Bo' would make a dandy trainer (except for the cost, of course). The
Navy certainly thought so for a long time.

--
Dan
C172RG at BFM

[[email protected]]

On Sat, 4 Feb 2006 15:17:39 -0600, "Dan Luke"
> wrote:

>What's the problem? I've got very little Bo' time, but it seemed to me
>to be the easiest airplane to fly that I'd ever flown--particularly in
>the landing phase. Wonderfully harmonized controls.
>
>If you could manage to remember to put the gear up and down, I think a
>Bo' would make a dandy trainer (except for the cost, of course). The
>Navy certainly thought so for a long time.

I know a guy that took his PPL 'ride in a Malibu Mirage. Solo'ed in a
7AC though...

TC

[[email protected]]

John Doe > wrote:
> > My first thought is WTF is she doing in a Bonanza?

> wrote:
> > Mine was similar. Seems we're in the minority.

Dan Luke" > wrote:
> What's the problem? I've got very little Bo' time, but it seemed to me
> to be the easiest airplane to fly that I'd ever flown--particularly in
> the landing phase. Wonderfully harmonized controls.
>
> If you could manage to remember to put the gear up and down, I think a
> Bo' would make a dandy trainer (except for the cost, of course). The
> Navy certainly thought so for a long time.

I'm a huge Bonanza fan. I don't have any PIC time, but a friend has a
gorgeous BE33. I've been his passenger on many flights and safety pilot
a few times. ICAM about it being a wonderful airplane. But it's very
fast compared to airplanes that are more typically used as primary
trainers. Can it be done? Yes, of course. If anything out of the
ordinary happens, however, or if a 40-hr solo pilot (or ANY pilot for
that matter) gets confused or distracted, they could get behind the
airplane VERY quickly in a Bo. Add the add'l tasks associated with a
complex aircraft to the mix and someone could be in big trouble a lot
faster than in a Cherokee or a C172. I know that's part of the training,
but things just happen very fast in that airplane. *Just my opinion.*

Is that anything close to what you were thinking, John Doe?

[john smith]

> Can it be done? Yes, of course. If anything out of the
> ordinary happens, however, or if a 40-hr solo pilot (or ANY pilot for
> that matter) gets confused or distracted, they could get behind the
> airplane VERY quickly in a Bo. Add the add'l tasks associated with a
> complex aircraft to the mix and someone could be in big trouble a lot
> faster than in a Cherokee or a C172. I know that's part of the training,
> but things just happen very fast in that airplane. *Just my opinion.*

Put the landing gear down and you have a fixed gear airplane.
Push the mixture and prop levers forward and you have a non-high
performance engine.
The only difference from other airplanes on the Bonanza and Baron is the
fuel pump. Turn the fuel pump on when the engine driven pump is
operating and the engine will flood.

[Marco Leon]

"BTIZ" > wrote in message
news:3MSEf.55542$V.20539@fed1read04...
> That's what the Lufthansa Flight School does..
> Primary Training in a Bonanza..
> not any different from the Air Force using T-37s to the Navy using T-34Cs
> BT

It is different. The Air Force does not stick zero-time students into the
T-37 and the same goes for the Navy.



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[Orval Fairbairn]

In article >,
"Marco Leon" <mmleon(at)yahoo.com> wrote:

> "BTIZ" > wrote in message
> news:3MSEf.55542$V.20539@fed1read04...
> > That's what the Lufthansa Flight School does..
> > Primary Training in a Bonanza..
> > not any different from the Air Force using T-37s to the Navy using T-34Cs
> > BT
>
> It is different. The Air Force does not stick zero-time students into the
> T-37 and the same goes for the Navy.

The Navy doesn't stick ANYBODY in a T-37! ;>)

--
Remve "_" from email to reply to me personally.