Gliders at Oskosh

[[email protected]]

SSA will be exhibiting gliders, with an info booth, at Oskosh this
year. That's great! But their choice is a bit surprising: "The
current plan is to exhibit two sailplanes, a Ximango to represent motor
gliders, and a Sparrowhawk for the purists." (quoted from the SSA
website).

Now, the Ximango is fine for a touring motorglider, but the Sparrowhawk
is hardly the glider of choice for purists - it's a nice niche glider
(ultralight, medium performance), but not really in the mainstream,
IMHO. I consider myself a bit of a purist (my friends would say
elitist glasshole, ahem) and when I think of a glider to show off to
the great unwashed masses I think ASW-27 , Nimbus 4, or LS-8, not
Sparrowhawk.

It would be nice to see a modern self launch (Apis?) and a state of the
art Std or 15 meter ship, and a modern 2-seat trainer (PW-6/ASK-21).

Or wow the motorheads with an ASH-25 or Nimbus 4dm with all the wing
bits on!

If someone asked me, and I had the time off, I'd be happy to drag my
old LS6 up there - but I don't think that's going to happen!

Oh well, now for the retribution of the Sparrowhawk fans...

Seriously, I really think that this is a good thing - regardless of the
actual gliders involved - The EAA crowd could be a great source of
glider pilots. Good on you, SSA! And good luck!

Kirk
66

[Mike the Strike]

Maybe "purist" means "Made in America", which kind of limits the
choices!

Mike

[Shawn]

wrote:
> SSA will be exhibiting gliders, with an info booth, at Oskosh this
> year. That's great! But their choice is a bit surprising: "The
> current plan is to exhibit two sailplanes, a Ximango to represent motor
> gliders, and a Sparrowhawk for the purists." (quoted from the SSA
> website).

I think the Ximango is something of a poor choice to show off on our
behalf. Because it looks fairly airplane like, I suspect all the
motorheads will only look at its airplane qualities, as in "Where do I
put my golf clubs?", or "Only cruises at 95 kts, might as well walk!"
and ignore its soaring potential. A Stemme, Antares, or "JATO" Silent
would be a more novel (if unrepresentative) intro to the sport.
The Sparrowhawk seems like a good choice too, if they can't get an Eta. :-)

Shawn

[Shawn]

Mike the Strike wrote:
> Maybe "purist" means "Made in America", which kind of limits the
> choices!

Maybe they're sticking to "Made in the Americas" and that's why they
chose the Chimichanga too.

Shawn

[Wayne Paul]

"Mike the Strike" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Maybe "purist" means "Made in America", which kind of limits the
> choices!
>


It seems a little strange to me that a sailplane built from a kit, such as
an Apis (http://www.apisgliders.com/kit.html), is not included. Or, maybe
couple vintage/classic gliders. After all the EAA is the organization that
advocates for home built aircraft, antique aircraft, war birds and
acrobatics.

The organization also has a large Ultralight contingent. That is where the
SparrowHawk fits.

I really don't see where the Ximango fits.

Wayne
------------------------
HP-14 N990 "6F"
http://www.soaridaho.com/Schreder

BTW - Dick Schreder was EAA member # 504

[Bob Kuykendall]

Earlier, wrote:

> SSA will be exhibiting gliders, with an info booth, at Oskosh this
> year. That's great! But their choice is a bit surprising: "The
> current plan is to exhibit two sailplanes, a Ximango to represent motor
> gliders, and a Sparrowhawk for the purists." (quoted from the SSA
> website).

That sounds about like what I've come to expect of the SSA.

Bob K.
http://www.hpaircraft.com

[Eric Greenwell]

Bob Kuykendall wrote:
> Earlier, wrote:
>
>
>>SSA will be exhibiting gliders, with an info booth, at Oskosh this
>>year. That's great! But their choice is a bit surprising: "The
>>current plan is to exhibit two sailplanes, a Ximango to represent motor
>>gliders, and a Sparrowhawk for the purists." (quoted from the SSA
>>website).
>
>
> That sounds about like what I've come to expect of the SSA.

Don't be too quick to judge: discover the situation first. Currently,
the event is being spearheaded by an eager volunteer group that is
raising money for the event. The SSA, and some of it's divisions and
affiliates are contributing money and some effort, but the majority of
the money and effort comes from the self-energizing volunteer group.

Ian Cant, an occasional poster here, is one of the leaders, and the
person I dealt with when the ASA (Auxiliary-powered Sailplane
Association) wanted to know if this effort was one we should support.
We've sent them a check (via the SSA), and hope to have at least one
self-launching sailplane there besides the Ximango, either as part of a
fly-in, or at/near the booth. The details are far from settled, and if
you are interested in influencing them, contact the lead organizers. The
contacts (Ian Cant and Anne Mongiovi) are clearly listed on the SSA site.

I urge everyone with some real interest in this event to get the details
before they post here. And note that I'm picking on Bob, not because he
is the most uninformed, but because I've met him several times and know
he is decent fellow with a sturdy ego that can withstand some gentle
chiding (I hope it's perceived that way!).

--
Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

Eric Greenwell
Washington State
USA

www.motorglider.org

[Bob Kuykendall]

Good points all, Eric. On reflection, I'm glad that somebody has
stepped up to the plate and is representing soaring at Oshkosh, er,
AirVenture.

I guess it's too easy to lose sight of the fact that the SSA isn't a
bunch of nameless, faceless drones - it's us. Or, at least, those of us
who are members.

Bob K.

[[email protected]]

Eric,

You are absolutely correct - Anne and Ian deserve all our support - in
time, money, gliders, etc to make this initiative work.

And our untarnished respect - this isn't an easy thing to do! And
realistically, finding room for a 25m ship in the display area would be
challenging, I susbect. That reason alone makes the Sparrowhawk a good
choice, in retrospect - and it does have a certain "what a cool little
glider" appeal to it.

On the other hand, maybe we should all fly in to Oskosh together,
release nearby, and do a simultaneous contest finish! No? Then how
about holding a regional contest there the week prior to or after
Airventure?

Anyway - Anne and Ian, thankyou for your efforts, and good luck! And
hopefully my slightly tongue-in-cheek (it's winter and stable, and the
field is wet, dammit!) posting will have raised awareness of your
initiative a bit.

Kirk
66

[[email protected]]

I come from the homebuilder ranks and if the idea is to attract new
blood to the sport of gliding from EAA members ....Then I think they
made an excelent choice of gliders to display. Most of the "purests"
already are involved in the sport. If you are pitching the sport to
the general public to attract non-aviation types then a more "pure"
craft might make sense.

IMHO there is a large untapped market among EAA and part 103 fliers
that would really enjoy the challange and economy of a reasonably
efficent motorglider. They just haven't been exposed to that branch of
aviation, or have been scared off by the "purests" with their big
expensive high performance glass. Soaring/gliding really is a fairly
well kept secret and even harder to get started in (in many parts of
this country) than general or experimental aviation.
======================
Leon McAtee

[Mike Schumann]

If you really want to generate interest, you should do some winch launch
demonstrations.

Mike Schumann

> wrote in message
oups.com...
>I come from the homebuilder ranks and if the idea is to attract new
> blood to the sport of gliding from EAA members ....Then I think they
> made an excelent choice of gliders to display. Most of the "purests"
> already are involved in the sport. If you are pitching the sport to
> the general public to attract non-aviation types then a more "pure"
> craft might make sense.
>
> IMHO there is a large untapped market among EAA and part 103 fliers
> that would really enjoy the challange and economy of a reasonably
> efficent motorglider. They just haven't been exposed to that branch of
> aviation, or have been scared off by the "purests" with their big
> expensive high performance glass. Soaring/gliding really is a fairly
> well kept secret and even harder to get started in (in many parts of
> this country) than general or experimental aviation.
> ======================
> Leon McAtee
>

[Bill Daniels]

I second that.

Bill Daniels

"Mike Schumann" > wrote in message
hlink.net...
> If you really want to generate interest, you should do some winch launch
> demonstrations.
>
> Mike Schumann
>
> > wrote in message
> oups.com...
>>I come from the homebuilder ranks and if the idea is to attract new
>> blood to the sport of gliding from EAA members ....Then I think they
>> made an excelent choice of gliders to display. Most of the "purests"
>> already are involved in the sport. If you are pitching the sport to
>> the general public to attract non-aviation types then a more "pure"
>> craft might make sense.
>>
>> IMHO there is a large untapped market among EAA and part 103 fliers
>> that would really enjoy the challange and economy of a reasonably
>> efficent motorglider. They just haven't been exposed to that branch of
>> aviation, or have been scared off by the "purests" with their big
>> expensive high performance glass. Soaring/gliding really is a fairly
>> well kept secret and even harder to get started in (in many parts of
>> this country) than general or experimental aviation.
>> ======================
>> Leon McAtee
>>
>
>

[Eric Greenwell]

Mike Schumann wrote:
> If you really want to generate interest, you should do some winch launch
> demonstrations.

My observation is airplane pilots, which covers most of EAA folks, are
not looking for more labor-intensive ways to go flying. Even a towplane
and a tow pilot seems like one more pilot and aircraft than they are
interested in. For airplane oriented pilots, the cost of glider flying
is not the $dollars, but the time involved in doing it. So, how does
winch launching attract this demographic?

--
Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

Eric Greenwell
Washington State USA

www.motorglider.org - Download "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane
Operation"

[Bill Daniels]

"Eric Greenwell" > wrote in message
...
> Mike Schumann wrote:
>> If you really want to generate interest, you should do some winch launch
>> demonstrations.
>
> My observation is airplane pilots, which covers most of EAA folks, are not
> looking for more labor-intensive ways to go flying. Even a towplane and a
> tow pilot seems like one more pilot and aircraft than they are interested
> in. For airplane oriented pilots, the cost of glider flying is not the
> $dollars, but the time involved in doing it. So, how does winch launching
> attract this demographic?
>
> --
> Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly
>
> Eric Greenwell
> Washington State USA

I don't think airplane pilots are that easy to pidgonhole. Obviously some
the the people at Oshcosh are looking for the thrill. Those marginally
interested in gliders will find winch launch exciting.

Bill Daniels

[Mike Schumann]

My main interest in winch launching is not saving money (even though that is
a major advantage), but the thrill of getting launched like you were being
shot out of canon. Instead of a boring tow, the launch itself is the
highlight of the ride.

Mike Schumann

"Eric Greenwell" > wrote in message
...
> Mike Schumann wrote:
>> If you really want to generate interest, you should do some winch launch
>> demonstrations.
>
> My observation is airplane pilots, which covers most of EAA folks, are not
> looking for more labor-intensive ways to go flying. Even a towplane and a
> tow pilot seems like one more pilot and aircraft than they are interested
> in. For airplane oriented pilots, the cost of glider flying is not the
> $dollars, but the time involved in doing it. So, how does winch launching
> attract this demographic?
>
> --
> Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly
>
> Eric Greenwell
> Washington State USA
>
> www.motorglider.org - Download "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane
> Operation"

[Dave Martin]

Mike,

Whils I agree that the initial winch launch acceleration
is faster than an aerotow, this is the wrong attitude.
Carried out properly it should not be a shot out of
a cannon. It is a simple safe and reliable alternative
way to get airborne.

If its cheap thrills you want go to Disney Land.
If it is gliding thrills then learn the proper way
to do aerobatics

Dave Martin

t 06:42 12 February 2006, Mike Schumann wrote:
>My main interest in winch launching is not saving money
>(even though that is
>a major advantage), but the thrill of getting launched
>like you were being
>shot out of canon. Instead of a boring tow, the launch
>itself is the
>highlight of the ride.
>
>Mike Schumann
>
>'Eric Greenwell' wrote in message
...
>> Mike Schumann wrote:
>>> If you really want to generate interest, you should
>>>do some winch launch
>>> demonstrations.
>>
>> My observation is airplane pilots, which covers most
>>of EAA folks, are not
>> looking for more labor-intensive ways to go flying.
>>Even a towplane and a
>> tow pilot seems like one more pilot and aircraft than
>>they are interested
>> in. For airplane oriented pilots, the cost of glider
>>flying is not the
>> $dollars, but the time involved in doing it. So, how
>>does winch launching
>> attract this demographic?
>>
>> --
>> Change 'netto' to 'net' to email me directly
>>
>> Eric Greenwell
>> Washington State USA
>>
>> www.motorglider.org - Download 'A Guide to Self-launching
>>Sailplane
>> Operation'
>
>
>

[[email protected]]

Is this exhibit at OSH going to be an outside booth, with the gliders
right there? If so, then I think it is about time! I was harping about
this several years ago; that there was very little soaring presence at
the biggest aviation event on the planet. But that was before the
regime change in Hobbs, hopefully soaring can increase its visibility
by having a nice display with all sorts of gliders. What exact types
are almost immaterial, but a motorglider, a 15m, a homebuilt and a
vintage (my favorite) would certainly cover the bases. In fact I'd be
willing to bring a Scheibe or Fournier motorglider if I could actually
find one to buy...
This is a good thing!
Ryan Wubben
Co-Chairman, Flight Line Operations, EAA OSH
N8452X-Cessna 172, and former Ka-6CR owner, dormant glider pilot.
Madison, WI

[Eric Greenwell]

wrote:

> Is this exhibit at OSH going to be an outside booth, with the gliders
> right there? If so, then I think it is about time! I was harping about
> this several years ago; that there was very little soaring presence at
> the biggest aviation event on the planet. But that was before the
> regime change in Hobbs, hopefully soaring can increase its visibility
> by having a nice display with all sorts of gliders. What exact types
> are almost immaterial, but a motorglider, a 15m, a homebuilt and a
> vintage (my favorite) would certainly cover the bases. In fact I'd be
> willing to bring a Scheibe or Fournier motorglider if I could actually
> find one to buy...
> This is a good thing!

Don't be bashful about contacting Ian Cant, the fellow I've been talking
with, or the Anne (haven't met her), the other person listed as the
contact for the event. Ian is enthusiastic about the event and there is
still time to influence the event at this point.


--
Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA

www.motorglider.org - Download "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane
Operation"

[Wayne Paul]

I have been ask to give a soaring presentation at the February meeting of
the local EAA chapter. Do any of you have a "PowerPoint" presentation that
you are willing to share? (No need to re-invent the wheel.) If so, I will
gladly accept them as an email attachment.

Wayne
HP-14 N990 "6F"
http://www.soaridaho.com/Schreder/HP-14/N990/N990.html

[Bill Daniels]

I'd suggest that you read the description on tthe SRA home page and start
form there. The SRA has done the best job of describing performance soaring
that I know of. http://sailplane-racing.org/

Then, I'd consider using a SeeYou 3D animation of a spectacular flight from
the OLC. I've done that and you can almost hear the thuds of jaws hitting
the floor. SeeYou + OLC is a VERY effective selling tool with a huge WOW!
factor. The audience really 'gets' it when they see the 3D animation.

Bill Daniels

"Wayne Paul" > wrote in message
...
>I have been ask to give a soaring presentation at the February meeting of
> the local EAA chapter. Do any of you have a "PowerPoint" presentation
> that
> you are willing to share? (No need to re-invent the wheel.) If so, I
> will
> gladly accept them as an email attachment.
>
> Wayne
> HP-14 N990 "6F"
> http://www.soaridaho.com/Schreder/HP-14/N990/N990.html
>
>
>

[John Galloway]

There's Mark Zivley's powerpoint presentation at:

http://www.soarmn.com/soaring_files/soaring1.ppt

I agree with Bill about a SeeYou 3D presentation.


At 20:00 12 February 2006, Bill Daniels wrote:
>I'd suggest that you read the description on tthe SRA
>home page and start
>form there. The SRA has done the best job of describing
>performance soaring
>that I know of. http://sailplane-racing.org/
>
>Then, I'd consider using a SeeYou 3D animation of a
>spectacular flight from
>the OLC. I've done that and you can almost hear the
>thuds of jaws hitting
>the floor. SeeYou + OLC is a VERY effective selling
>tool with a huge WOW!
>factor. The audience really 'gets' it when they see
>the 3D animation.
>
>Bill Daniels
>
>'Wayne Paul' wrote in message
...
>>I have been ask to give a soaring presentation at the
>>February meeting of
>> the local EAA chapter. Do any of you have a 'PowerPoint'
>>presentation
>> that
>> you are willing to share? (No need to re-invent the
>>wheel.) If so, I
>> will
>> gladly accept them as an email attachment.
>>
>> Wayne
>> HP-14 N990 '6F'
>> http://www.soaridaho.com/Schreder/HP-14/N990/N990.html
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>

[John Galloway]

There's Mark Zivley's powerpoint presentation at:

http://www.soarmn.com/soaring_files/soaring1.ppt

I agree with Bill about a SeeYou 3D presentation.


At 20:00 12 February 2006, Bill Daniels wrote:
>I'd suggest that you read the description on tthe SRA
>home page and start
>form there. The SRA has done the best job of describing
>performance soaring
>that I know of. http://sailplane-racing.org/
>
>Then, I'd consider using a SeeYou 3D animation of a
>spectacular flight from
>the OLC. I've done that and you can almost hear the
>thuds of jaws hitting
>the floor. SeeYou + OLC is a VERY effective selling
>tool with a huge WOW!
>factor. The audience really 'gets' it when they see
>the 3D animation.
>
>Bill Daniels
>
>'Wayne Paul' wrote in message
...
>>I have been ask to give a soaring presentation at the
>>February meeting of
>> the local EAA chapter. Do any of you have a 'PowerPoint'
>>presentation
>> that
>> you are willing to share? (No need to re-invent the
>>wheel.) If so, I
>> will
>> gladly accept them as an email attachment.
>>
>> Wayne
>> HP-14 N990 '6F'
>> http://www.soaridaho.com/Schreder/HP-14/N990/N990.html
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>

[[email protected]]

I am told that the choice of the Sparrowhawk was dictated by the
available space.
But I do not think it is a good selection for the EAA crowd. It is
simply not represenative of what people will find at their local
gliderport.
I displayed my kit built Apis 13 in 2003 and attracted a lot of
attention but no orders. Never even got a mention in the magazine.
The EAA folks are more turned on by selflaunch than pure gliders, which
they see as needing too much supporting equiptment and personel.

One thing I do not like about the proposed exhibit is that non SSA
Chapter clubs will not be mentioned. There are a lot of them and many
are more convenient than SSA affileated clubs. But the SSA is chiping
in some of the money so I guess they get their way.

Robert Mudd

[diogenes]

wrote:
> One thing I do not like about the proposed exhibit is that non SSA
> Chapter clubs will not be mentioned. There are a lot of them and many
> are more convenient than SSA affileated clubs. But the SSA is chiping
> in some of the money so I guess they get their way.

Basically the SSA is in the business of promoting the SSA, not soaring
per se - though that can result in soaring also being promoted. I
thought the organizers solicited donations from many sources - perhaps
if a non-SSA-affiliated club donated they also get on the list.