Plastic/Vinyl letters

[Mel Dawson]

Hi, I have just purchased a glider with a large flag
and lettering on the fin, is there an easy way of removing
them? Mel.

[Papa3]

Mel,

By the title of your post, I'm assuming these are decals. Also,
assuming you've purchased a glass ship.

The letters I've worked with come off reasonably easily with plain old
mechanical methods (ie. peeling). It may help to use a heat gun on
LOW to soften the adhesive and material a little, but be very careful
not to get the surface too hot; if it's too hot to comfortably touch
it's too hot. You can use a plastic scraper to help things along.
The kind sold for mixing up plaster or bondo honed to a sharp point
work great. Final cleanup with a little bit of acetone on a rag
followed by a rinse with some H2O will get rid of any residual
adhesive.

Hope this helps.

Erik Mann (P3)

[Bill Daniels]

Heat works but I'd use a hairdryer instead of a heat gun. You just need to
get it warm and the letters should peel right off using your fingers. A
heat gun is overkill.

Bill Daniels

"Papa3" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Mel,
>
> By the title of your post, I'm assuming these are decals. Also,
> assuming you've purchased a glass ship.
>
> The letters I've worked with come off reasonably easily with plain old
> mechanical methods (ie. peeling). It may help to use a heat gun on
> LOW to soften the adhesive and material a little, but be very careful
> not to get the surface too hot; if it's too hot to comfortably touch
> it's too hot. You can use a plastic scraper to help things along.
> The kind sold for mixing up plaster or bondo honed to a sharp point
> work great. Final cleanup with a little bit of acetone on a rag
> followed by a rinse with some H2O will get rid of any residual
> adhesive.
>
> Hope this helps.
>
> Erik Mann (P3)
>

[Gary Emerson]

Warm but not hot is an excellent recommendation from Bill then peel very
patiently. Heat as you go.

If there is any adhesive residue, WD40 works great.

Bill Daniels wrote:
> Heat works but I'd use a hairdryer instead of a heat gun. You just need to
> get it warm and the letters should peel right off using your fingers. A
> heat gun is overkill.
>
> Bill Daniels
>
> "Papa3" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
>
>>Mel,
>>
>>By the title of your post, I'm assuming these are decals. Also,
>>assuming you've purchased a glass ship.
>>
>>The letters I've worked with come off reasonably easily with plain old
>>mechanical methods (ie. peeling). It may help to use a heat gun on
>>LOW to soften the adhesive and material a little, but be very careful
>>not to get the surface too hot; if it's too hot to comfortably touch
>>it's too hot. You can use a plastic scraper to help things along.
>>The kind sold for mixing up plaster or bondo honed to a sharp point
>>work great. Final cleanup with a little bit of acetone on a rag
>>followed by a rinse with some H2O will get rid of any residual
>>adhesive.
>>
>>Hope this helps.
>>
>>Erik Mann (P3)
>>
>
>
>

[[email protected]]

> Final cleanup with a little bit of acetone on a rag >

Depending on what is under the skin Acetone might not be a good idea.
A less agressive solvent, such as Xylene, will get the goo off with
less chance of disolving any foam.

Also the autobody industry has some nifty little rubber discs for a
drill that will peal off these kinds of stickers and leave the paint
finish undamaged.
===============
Leon McAtee

[[email protected]]

> Also the autobody industry has some nifty little rubber discs for a
> drill that will peal off these kinds of stickers and leave the paint
> finish undamaged.

These "nifty little rubber discs" sound interesting. Any more details?
None of the quick Google searches I did of the Web and newsgroups
mention anything like this.

When the adhensive decals on my [fiberglass top] Cobra trailer became
ratty after sitting out in the sun and snow for some years, I had a
terrible time getting them off. Hair dryer, heat gun, WD-40, bug & tar
remover, acetone, plastic scraper, etc. Nothing worked very well. About
half the battle was getting the plastic decal off. The other half was
removing the remaining adhesive. Heating it again helped but it was
still a gooey mess. I assume this is much more like what the auto body
guys have to deal with than are our delicate little sailplanes that
spend less than 100 hours a year in the sun.

Chip Bearden
ASW 24 "JB"

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

http://multimedia.mmm.com/mws/mediawebserver.dyn?6666660Zjcf6lVs6EVs666EEwCOrrrr Q-

--
--
Geoff
The Sea Hawk at Wow Way d0t Com
remove spaces and make the obvious substitutions to reply by mail
Spell checking is left as an excercise for the reader.
> wrote in message
ups.com...
>> Also the autobody industry has some nifty little rubber discs for a
>> drill that will peal off these kinds of stickers and leave the paint
>> finish undamaged.
>
> These "nifty little rubber discs" sound interesting. Any more details?
> None of the quick Google searches I did of the Web and newsgroups
> mention anything like this.
>
> When the adhensive decals on my [fiberglass top] Cobra trailer became
> ratty after sitting out in the sun and snow for some years, I had a
> terrible time getting them off. Hair dryer, heat gun, WD-40, bug & tar
> remover, acetone, plastic scraper, etc. Nothing worked very well. About
> half the battle was getting the plastic decal off. The other half was
> removing the remaining adhesive. Heating it again helped but it was
> still a gooey mess. I assume this is much more like what the auto body
> guys have to deal with than are our delicate little sailplanes that
> spend less than 100 hours a year in the sun.
>
> Chip Bearden
> ASW 24 "JB"
>

[Frank Whiteley]

The local community college auto shop used those rubber discs to remove
a logo and phone number from my daughter's car door. However, there
was still an after image in the finish under bright sun. Still visible
after three years.

YMMV on gel coat/poly finishes.

Frank Whiteley

[[email protected]]

> The local community college auto shop used those rubber discs to remove
> a logo and phone number from my daughter's car door. However, there
> was still an after image in the finish under bright sun. Still visible
> after three years.

Years later, you can still see where the big decals were on my trailer,
too. It's where the gel coat is still nice and glossy and new looking.
If you've ever removed painted-on contest numbers from an older
gel-coated glider to find a perfect surface below (instead of the
crazing surrounding it), you'll know what I mean. I suspect the decals
protect paint from oxidation, weathering, and fading just as they do
gel coat.

Chip Bearden
ASW 24 "JB"

[Gadget Guy]

Hi, I have just purchased a glider with a large flag
and lettering on the fin, is there an easy way of removing
them? Mel.
I had a AP recommend 3M Adhesive remover found in the auto store. I pulled the carpeting out of mine this winter and had to remove the foam that was left behind after 19 years. It desolved the foam and the adhesive and left the Fiberglass/paint untouched. The can was all RED with a BLACK top made by 3M.

John
DG300 'XLT"

[Derek Copeland]

So if you cover your glider with self adhesive vinyl
sheeting, the gel coat will last for ever!

When we refinished a Nimbus 2 I used to have a share
in, it was also found that the gel coat was still perfect
under the red conspicuity markings painted on the wingtips.


Derek Copeland

At 16:06 12 February 2006, wrote:
>
>If you've ever removed painted-on contest numbers from
>an older
>gel-coated glider to find a perfect surface below (instead
>of the
>crazing surrounding it), you'll know what I mean. I
>suspect the decals
>protect paint from oxidation, weathering, and fading
>just as they do
>gel coat.
>
>Chip Bearden
>ASW 24 'JB'
>
>

[Mark Zivley]

So, I wonder what a manufacturer would charge a customer to take a
finished glider and cover it entirely with white (or any other color)
Monokote?

http://www.monokote.com/



Derek Copeland wrote:
> So if you cover your glider with self adhesive vinyl
> sheeting, the gel coat will last for ever!
>
> When we refinished a Nimbus 2 I used to have a share
> in, it was also found that the gel coat was still perfect
> under the red conspicuity markings painted on the wingtips.
>
>
> Derek Copeland
>
> At 16:06 12 February 2006, wrote:
>
>>If you've ever removed painted-on contest numbers from
>>an older
>>gel-coated glider to find a perfect surface below (instead
>>of the
>>crazing surrounding it), you'll know what I mean. I
>>suspect the decals
>>protect paint from oxidation, weathering, and fading
>>just as they do
>>gel coat.
>>
>>Chip Bearden
>>ASW 24 'JB'
>>
>>
>
>
>
>

[Nyal Williams]

Just in case your comment was not tongue-in-cheek:
Monokote is a filament used to cover model airplanes.
You couldn't cover a wing with it because the overlap
of the panels would alter the airfoil.

The best answer might just be a thin coat of white
epoxy enamel paint made for automobiles. I have a
Discus that had the gel removed completely and was
painted in this way. Painting on top of the gelcoat
would certainly add to the weight and make it tail
heavy.

YMMV, WISIWIG, MTFTD (My thought for the day, and all
that, and all that)

At 21:01 13 February 2006, Mark Zivley wrote:
>So, I wonder what a manufacturer would charge a customer
>to take a
>finished glider and cover it entirely with white (or
>any other color)
>Monokote?
>
>http://www.monokote.com/
>
>
>
>Derek Copeland wrote:
>> So if you cover your glider with self adhesive vinyl
>> sheeting, the gel coat will last for ever!
>>
>> When we refinished a Nimbus 2 I used to have a share
>> in, it was also found that the gel coat was still
>>perfect
>> under the red conspicuity markings painted on the
>>wingtips.
>>
>>
>> Derek Copeland
>>
>> At 16:06 12 February 2006, wrote:
>>
>>>If you've ever removed painted-on contest numbers from
>>>an older
>>>gel-coated glider to find a perfect surface below (instead
>>>of the
>>>crazing surrounding it), you'll know what I mean. I
>>>suspect the decals
>>>protect paint from oxidation, weathering, and fading
>>>just as they do
>>>gel coat.
>>>
>>>Chip Bearden
>>>ASW 24 'JB'
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>

[Bill Daniels]

Monokote is just the model airplane brand of a heat shrinkable plastic film
which is probably avialable in widths and thicknesses that are big enough
for glider wings. I've wondered if somethng like this woldn't make an
inexpensive refinish process.

bildan

"Nyal Williams" > wrote in message
...
> Just in case your comment was not tongue-in-cheek:
> Monokote is a filament used to cover model airplanes.
> You couldn't cover a wing with it because the overlap
> of the panels would alter the airfoil.
>
> The best answer might just be a thin coat of white
> epoxy enamel paint made for automobiles. I have a
> Discus that had the gel removed completely and was
> painted in this way. Painting on top of the gelcoat
> would certainly add to the weight and make it tail
> heavy.
>
> YMMV, WISIWIG, MTFTD (My thought for the day, and all
> that, and all that)
>
> At 21:01 13 February 2006, Mark Zivley wrote:
>>So, I wonder what a manufacturer would charge a customer
>>to take a
>>finished glider and cover it entirely with white (or
>>any other color)
>>Monokote?
>>
>>http://www.monokote.com/
>>
>>
>>
>>Derek Copeland wrote:
>>> So if you cover your glider with self adhesive vinyl
>>> sheeting, the gel coat will last for ever!
>>>
>>> When we refinished a Nimbus 2 I used to have a share
>>> in, it was also found that the gel coat was still
>>>perfect
>>> under the red conspicuity markings painted on the
>>>wingtips.
>>>
>>>
>>> Derek Copeland
>>>
>>> At 16:06 12 February 2006, wrote:
>>>
>>>>If you've ever removed painted-on contest numbers from
>>>>an older
>>>>gel-coated glider to find a perfect surface below (instead
>>>>of the
>>>>crazing surrounding it), you'll know what I mean. I
>>>>suspect the decals
>>>>protect paint from oxidation, weathering, and fading
>>>>just as they do
>>>>gel coat.
>>>>
>>>>Chip Bearden
>>>>ASW 24 'JB'
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>
>
>

[[email protected]]

The automotive refinish industry has looked at this option. About the
only thing keeping us from using it is public acceptance. We don't
like to buy "new" things.

BTW boat shrink wrap comes in a few colors and is plenty large enough
to cover a wing, or a whole glider. Heat set adhesives are available
to turn it into a heavy duty version of Monokote. Several ultralights
have used similar covering materials and methods, Tedlar on the
original Lazair being the most notable. I have tested the shrink wrap
method on some ulatalight control surfaces and am satisfied enough that
it is a viable method, below 80 knots or so, that I may try it as a
replacement for the 1.7 oz Dacron the next time I cover an
experimental.
==============
Leon McAtee

[Udo Rumpf]

Bill,
I would be very difficult to apply this kind of finish on a larger scale.
You would need a clean room not unlike a chip manufacturer.
The smallest dust particle, if trapped, magnifies the imperfection.
It is difficult enough to do it on a smaller scale.
Regards
Udo

> Monokote is just the model airplane brand of a heat shrinkable plastic
> film which is probably avialable in widths and thicknesses that are big
> enough for glider wings. I've wondered if somethng like this woldn't make
> an inexpensive refinish process.
>
> bildan

[Bill Daniels]

Yes, but you wouldn't need it for long.

bildan

"Udo Rumpf" > wrote in message
. ..
> Bill,
> I would be very difficult to apply this kind of finish on a larger scale.
> You would need a clean room not unlike a chip manufacturer.
> The smallest dust particle, if trapped, magnifies the imperfection.
> It is difficult enough to do it on a smaller scale.
> Regards
> Udo
>
>> Monokote is just the model airplane brand of a heat shrinkable plastic
>> film which is probably avialable in widths and thicknesses that are big
>> enough for glider wings. I've wondered if somethng like this woldn't
>> make an inexpensive refinish process.
>>
>> bildan
>

[Mark Zivley]

If you do find a bump under the film you could always cut out that one
little area and put a small patch over it.

Udo Rumpf wrote:
> Bill,
> I would be very difficult to apply this kind of finish on a larger scale.
> You would need a clean room not unlike a chip manufacturer.
> The smallest dust particle, if trapped, magnifies the imperfection.
> It is difficult enough to do it on a smaller scale.
> Regards
> Udo
>
>> Monokote is just the model airplane brand of a heat shrinkable plastic
>> film which is probably avialable in widths and thicknesses that are
>> big enough for glider wings. I've wondered if somethng like this
>> woldn't make an inexpensive refinish process.
>>
>> bildan
>
>

[[email protected]]

>>Yes, but you wouldn't need it for long.<<

And it wouldn't need to be as - clean - as implied. Any modern paint
booth is good enough. Even my 30 year old one works well enough. I
don't buff paint jobs. In fact the buffer hasn't been out of it's box
in years. Automobile manufactures turn out fairly good paint jobs.
Other than much better prep work their booths aren't all that much
better than the good refinish industry booths. The only advantage of
paint over plastic film is that the paint defects can be sanded and
buffed to be cosmetically acceptable. If you can do a cosmetically
acceptable traditional paint job with out the need for rework then the
same is possible for plastic film. But who knows what future
technology might bring. It may be possible to sand and buff plastic
film as well?

Most of the finish contamination comes from the article your
refinishing, not the surrounding area. Properly cleaned and sealed
this isn't a huge problem, and a glider is far easier to clean/mask
than a road vehicle. They are generally cleaner to start with as well.

Other benefits of plastic film over paint:

If you need to rework a plastic film it's far easier to remove than
paint.
Less toxic materials
Less flammable working environment
Less environmental impact - far fewer VOC's and heavy metals
Material is recyclable - try that with paint :-)
Plastic film is probably lighter for a given mil thickness as well
Applicator skill required is less.
Fewer tools needed
=====================
Leon McAtee
Painting my Duster with PPG - no plastic film

[[email protected]]

Monocote is extremely difficult to put on sheeted surfaces and get a
finish that resembles paint. I have used Econocote (similar, but
thinner than Monocote and requires less heat to activate the adhesive
and shrink the film) to cover many scale R/C gliders with wood sheeted
wings. Wrinkles and bubbles are a problem, plus you can always see the
grain of the wood. The amount of heat required for Monocote is more
than Econocote needs, and will definately melt/delaminate a foam
core/sheeted wing. Then, changes in temperature can make it bubble.
These coverings are good for open bay structures and add strength to
them. Considering the labor involved in an iron on covering vs. paint,
the paint will look nicer longer.
I have been looking at removable paints for contest IDs and found
this - http://www.mobile-colors.com/autohome.asp Alcohol based and
no bleeding or staining (so they claim-will test myself next week).
I've always used "Lift Off 2" for getting adhesive residue off of
gelcoat with great results on composite model, with both foam and balsa
core layups. I believe the problem with using solvents lies in the
foam used. Styrofoam is the worst, but is not used in female
mould/hollow construction by anyone in the model industry.
Bill

[Ritch]

Hey Bill/All,

This is Ritch with Mobile Colors. I found this thread from someone
that came to our website today. I'm going to list some basic info for
those who are interested.

Our paints will work easily on any metal surface. It also works well
on gel/clear-coats. Mobile Colors paint actually protects underlying
surfaces. So, painting on a plane shouldn't be any problem. However,
the de-icing fluid can damage the paint. This paint will stay on for
at least two years in normal outdoor weather conditions. Though, harsh
chemicals can adversely affect it. We are going to be releasing more
durable formulations in the near future. These will withstand moderate
exposure to very aggressive chemicals.

As far as styrene plastics go, don't use our paints directly on them.
Cloth and very light/porous plastics are surfaces that we do not
recommend for use with our paints. The free-floating pigments will not
come out.

Hard, finished surfaces are ideal for Mobile Colors paints. Though,
some unfinished surfaces can achieve excellent results. I'm referring
mainly to unfinished concrete. White, unfinished concrete is very
difficult to remove any paint from its surface. Our paint works on
that surface. A link to a concrete removal demonstration is at the
following location:
http://www.mobile-colors.com/showcase/remove.asp

Our website is: http://www.mobile-colors.com

More information about our surfaces is located at this link:
http://www.mobile-colors.com/prodinfo/surfaces.htm

If you have any questions, please contact me at
or 866-626-5671.

Thanks,
Ritch

wrote:
> Monocote is extremely difficult to put on sheeted surfaces and get a
> finish that resembles paint. I have used Econocote (similar, but
> thinner than Monocote and requires less heat to activate the adhesive
> and shrink the film) to cover many scale R/C gliders with wood sheeted
> wings. Wrinkles and bubbles are a problem, plus you can always see the
> grain of the wood. The amount of heat required for Monocote is more
> than Econocote needs, and will definately melt/delaminate a foam
> core/sheeted wing. Then, changes in temperature can make it bubble.
> These coverings are good for open bay structures and add strength to
> them. Considering the labor involved in an iron on covering vs. paint,
> the paint will look nicer longer.
> I have been looking at removable paints for contest IDs and found
> this - http://www.mobile-colors.com/autohome.asp Alcohol based and
> no bleeding or staining (so they claim-will test myself next week).
> I've always used "Lift Off 2" for getting adhesive residue off of
> gelcoat with great results on composite model, with both foam and balsa
> core layups. I believe the problem with using solvents lies in the
> foam used. Styrofoam is the worst, but is not used in female
> mould/hollow construction by anyone in the model industry.
> Bill

[Martin Gregorie]

wrote:
> These coverings are good for open bay structures and add strength to
> them.
>
Total disagreement. Those plastic films add NO torsional rigidity.
Fibafilm is better, if fragile. The best, provided your model will work
with a textured surface, is Ikarex (a polycarbamate coated polypropylene
kite fabric). The stuff is bullet-proof, has great colors, and is much
less flexible than any of the monocote type films.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. |
org | Zappa fan & glider pilot

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

"Bill Daniels" <bildan@comcast-dot-net> wrote in message
. ..
> Yes, but you wouldn't need it for long.
>
> bildan
>
> "Udo Rumpf" > wrote in message
> . ..
>> Bill,
>> I would be very difficult to apply this kind of finish on a larger scale.
>> You would need a clean room not unlike a chip manufacturer.
>> The smallest dust particle, if trapped, magnifies the imperfection.
>> It is difficult enough to do it on a smaller scale.
>> Regards
>> Udo
>> Monokote is just the model airplane brand of a heat shrinkable plastic
>> film which is probably avialable in widths and thicknesses that are big
>> enough for glider wings. I've wondered if somethng like this woldn't
>> make an inexpensive refinish process.
>>
>> bildan

Plastic wood grain stuff used to be common on station wagons.

My dad decided to replace some that had faded pretty badly on a '60s or'70s
vintage station wagon - when he found out how much the "real" stuff cost, he
went to K-mart and bought shelf paper...

--
Geoff
The Sea Hawk at Wow Way d0t Com
remove spaces and make the obvious substitutions to reply by mail
Spell checking is left as an excercise for the reader.

[mike]

You must be a modeler Bill.

You are right, on an open bay structure, Monocoat adds much torsional
rigidity. Anyone building an open bay wing can easily test this by
twisting the wing before and after covering the wing-BIG DIFFERENCE!

Putting a like film on a full scale wing would be a disaster I think.
Going from a hot trailer to cool altituted would cause stretching and
wrinkles in the finish as would wing bending in flight. In application
one would never get tolerances to .004" due to dust and air bubbles
trapped on such a non porous surface as gelcoat-on ratty
gelcoat-probably much worse.