Seeking Self-Launching Intelligence

[Thatcher Smith]

I would be grateful for any opinions, web searches don't seem to reveal much...

I am considering purchasing a self-launcer, likely in Ventus, ASH26, or DG808 guise and would like to know:

-do those of you who operate these or similar machines ever lose soaring days due to malfunctions in the power system?
-are there large price and/or operating cost differentials between these three?
-are there reliaibility differences?
-are there build quality/longevity differences?
-is it difficult to find informed persons to service the power system?

Thank-you

[Eric Greenwell]

Thatcher Smith wrote:

> I am considering purchasing a self-launcer, likely in Ventus, ASH26, or
> DG808 guise and would like to know:
>
> -do those of you who operate these or similar machines ever lose
> soaring days due to malfunctions in the power system?

Yes, though the losses can be reduced by taking a tow. In my 11 years of
owning my ASH 26 E, I've only lost a couple days, but that's partly that
depends on when and what problem occurs. Most of the problems were in
the first 3 years; the last 8 have been uneventful.

The AD history of a particular model will give you an idea of how much
it might have lost over the years; however, many ADs don't immediately
stop a glider from flying, but give it some time to comply. The repairs
can often be scheduled for minimum impact.

> -are there large price and/or operating cost differentials between
> these three?

No, they are very similar in operating cost and price; however, the Solo
2 stroke engine powered Ventus and DG 808 have had more trouble in the
last few years than the Wankel rotary (by Diamond Aircraft) engine
powered ASH 26 E.

> -are there reliaibility differences?

In the last few years, yes, but perhaps the latest fixes for the Solo
engine should close the gap with the Diamond Wankel engine. The future
lies ahead of us, of course, and surprises may be waiting, as owners of
the previous generation of motorgliders will be happy to point out.

> -are there build quality/longevity differences?

Glider or engine?

> -is it difficult to find informed persons to service the power system?

I can't speak for the Solo crowd, but it is to some extent for the
Diamond engine. Even so, anything that does not involve the internals of
the engine can be handled by a competent mechanic (or appropriately
supervised owner); if the problem is internal, it has to go back to the
factory. On the West Coast, Rex Mayes of Williams Soaring can handle
everything but the internals, and likely High Country Soaring in Minden
may also be able to. I'm sure there are others on the East Coast and
elsewhere.

What makes this acceptable to the ASH owners is an internal problem is
quite rare, and the occasional external problem is generally easy to
deal with.

For more resources, visit www.motorglider.org, the website of the
Auxiliary-powered Sailplane Association (ASA). There are lists of owners
groups you can visit, and if you become an ASA member, you can post
questions on the ASA newsgroup. And be sure to download "A Guide to
Self-launching Sailplane Operation" from the site, which covers the
things the pilot should know for safe and effective operation.

--
Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA

www.motorglider.org - Download "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane
Operation"

[bumper]

Also consider that many of the "small" problems that occur, with the Solo
2-stroke powered ships, are vibration related. These problems don't often
result in AD's, they just get quietly fixed - well, except for cussing which
always helps speed repairs. Such problems include broken wiring connections,
sheared bolts, broken brackets etc.

The Wankel engine, on the other hand, is by nature turbine smooth.

bumper
ASH26E
Minden, NV
"Eric Greenwell" > wrote in message
...
> Thatcher Smith wrote:
>
>> I am considering purchasing a self-launcer, likely in Ventus, ASH26, or
>> DG808 guise and would like to know:
>>
>> -do those of you who operate these or similar machines ever lose
>> soaring days due to malfunctions in the power system?
>
> Yes, though the losses can be reduced by taking a tow. In my 11 years of
> owning my ASH 26 E, I've only lost a couple days, but that's partly that
> depends on when and what problem occurs. Most of the problems were in the
> first 3 years; the last 8 have been uneventful.
>
> The AD history of a particular model will give you an idea of how much it
> might have lost over the years; however, many ADs don't immediately stop a
> glider from flying, but give it some time to comply. The repairs can often
> be scheduled for minimum impact.
>
>> -are there large price and/or operating cost differentials between
>> these three?
>
> No, they are very similar in operating cost and price; however, the Solo 2
> stroke engine powered Ventus and DG 808 have had more trouble in the last
> few years than the Wankel rotary (by Diamond Aircraft) engine powered ASH
> 26 E.
>
>> -are there reliaibility differences?
>
> In the last few years, yes, but perhaps the latest fixes for the Solo
> engine should close the gap with the Diamond Wankel engine. The future
> lies ahead of us, of course, and surprises may be waiting, as owners of
> the previous generation of motorgliders will be happy to point out.
>
>> -are there build quality/longevity differences?
>
> Glider or engine?
>
>> -is it difficult to find informed persons to service the power system?
>
> I can't speak for the Solo crowd, but it is to some extent for the Diamond
> engine. Even so, anything that does not involve the internals of the
> engine can be handled by a competent mechanic (or appropriately supervised
> owner); if the problem is internal, it has to go back to the factory. On
> the West Coast, Rex Mayes of Williams Soaring can handle everything but
> the internals, and likely High Country Soaring in Minden may also be able
> to. I'm sure there are others on the East Coast and elsewhere.
>
> What makes this acceptable to the ASH owners is an internal problem is
> quite rare, and the occasional external problem is generally easy to deal
> with.
>
> For more resources, visit www.motorglider.org, the website of the
> Auxiliary-powered Sailplane Association (ASA). There are lists of owners
> groups you can visit, and if you become an ASA member, you can post
> questions on the ASA newsgroup. And be sure to download "A Guide to
> Self-launching Sailplane Operation" from the site, which covers the things
> the pilot should know for safe and effective operation.
>
> --
> Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly
>
> Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
>
> www.motorglider.org - Download "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane
> Operation"

[Graeme Cant]

bumper wrote:

> Also consider that many of the "small" problems that occur, with the Solo
> 2-stroke powered ships, are vibration related. These problems don't often
> result in AD's, they just get quietly fixed - well, except for cussing which
> always helps speed repairs. Such problems include broken wiring connections,
> sheared bolts, broken brackets etc.

My experience is that that is very true. The Solo isn't the only
problem. All 2 stroke engines seem to be the same. As you say, not all
result in ADs - but many do. A number of the ADs on the DG400s, 500s,
800s relate to things like staking ring gears and fuel line fractures -
all vibration driven.

Two strokes are inherently bad for vibration and the only things in
their favour are the smaller number of moving parts (than a 4-stroke)
and the power/weight ratio. The engine's are reliable but the
accessories and mountings are another story.

> The Wankel engine, on the other hand, is by nature turbine smooth.

OTOH, the last bill I heard of for a Wankel that needed internal work
was 20,000 Euro plus an eight week round trip from Oz.

Graeme Cant

>
> bumper
> ASH26E
> Minden, NV
> "Eric Greenwell" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>Thatcher Smith wrote:
>>
>>
>>>I am considering purchasing a self-launcer, likely in Ventus, ASH26, or
>>>DG808 guise and would like to know:
>>>
>>>-do those of you who operate these or similar machines ever lose
>>>soaring days due to malfunctions in the power system?
>>
>>Yes, though the losses can be reduced by taking a tow. In my 11 years of
>>owning my ASH 26 E, I've only lost a couple days, but that's partly that
>>depends on when and what problem occurs. Most of the problems were in the
>>first 3 years; the last 8 have been uneventful.
>>
>>The AD history of a particular model will give you an idea of how much it
>>might have lost over the years; however, many ADs don't immediately stop a
>>glider from flying, but give it some time to comply. The repairs can often
>>be scheduled for minimum impact.
>>
>>
>>>-are there large price and/or operating cost differentials between
>>>these three?
>>
>>No, they are very similar in operating cost and price; however, the Solo 2
>>stroke engine powered Ventus and DG 808 have had more trouble in the last
>>few years than the Wankel rotary (by Diamond Aircraft) engine powered ASH
>>26 E.
>>
>>
>>>-are there reliaibility differences?
>>
>>In the last few years, yes, but perhaps the latest fixes for the Solo
>>engine should close the gap with the Diamond Wankel engine. The future
>>lies ahead of us, of course, and surprises may be waiting, as owners of
>>the previous generation of motorgliders will be happy to point out.
>>
>>
>>>-are there build quality/longevity differences?
>>
>>Glider or engine?
>>
>>
>>>-is it difficult to find informed persons to service the power system?
>>
>>I can't speak for the Solo crowd, but it is to some extent for the Diamond
>>engine. Even so, anything that does not involve the internals of the
>>engine can be handled by a competent mechanic (or appropriately supervised
>>owner); if the problem is internal, it has to go back to the factory. On
>>the West Coast, Rex Mayes of Williams Soaring can handle everything but
>>the internals, and likely High Country Soaring in Minden may also be able
>>to. I'm sure there are others on the East Coast and elsewhere.
>>
>>What makes this acceptable to the ASH owners is an internal problem is
>>quite rare, and the occasional external problem is generally easy to deal
>>with.
>>
>>For more resources, visit www.motorglider.org, the website of the
>>Auxiliary-powered Sailplane Association (ASA). There are lists of owners
>>groups you can visit, and if you become an ASA member, you can post
>>questions on the ASA newsgroup. And be sure to download "A Guide to
>>Self-launching Sailplane Operation" from the site, which covers the things
>>the pilot should know for safe and effective operation.
>>
>>--
>>Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly
>>
>>Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
>>
>>www.motorglider.org - Download "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane
>>Operation"
>
>
>

[bumper]

20,000 Euro? Ouch! That should have paid for a new motor.

To add a bit more to this, last year I checked the propeller and engine
balance (vibration spectral analysis) on another motorglider at Minden, with
an Aces 2020 prop balancer.

Keeping in mind that less than .05 ips is considered smooth, while more than
..5 is quite rough, at the frequency of the prop, I measured .24 ips. At the
engine frequency, it was just over .7 ips. Balancing the prop, which we
didn't have time to do, would have resulted in little discernable reduction
in perceived vibration levels.

My ASH26E measures less than .03 ips. It did require prop balance weights to
get it that smooth. As delivered, it was .24 ips. Probably an anomaly, as
two other 26's I've looked at showed less than .05 ips (smooth)
out-of-the-box.

all the best,

bumper
Minden, NV
"Graeme Cant" > wrote in message
...
> bumper wrote:
>
>> Also consider that many of the "small" problems that occur, with the Solo
>> 2-stroke powered ships, are vibration related. These problems don't often
>> result in AD's, they just get quietly fixed - well, except for cussing
>> which always helps speed repairs. Such problems include broken wiring
>> connections, sheared bolts, broken brackets etc.
>
> My experience is that that is very true. The Solo isn't the only problem.
> All 2 stroke engines seem to be the same. As you say, not all result in
> ADs - but many do. A number of the ADs on the DG400s, 500s, 800s relate
> to things like staking ring gears and fuel line fractures - all vibration
> driven.
>
> Two strokes are inherently bad for vibration and the only things in their
> favour are the smaller number of moving parts (than a 4-stroke) and the
> power/weight ratio. The engine's are reliable but the accessories and
> mountings are another story.
>
>> The Wankel engine, on the other hand, is by nature turbine smooth.
>
> OTOH, the last bill I heard of for a Wankel that needed internal work was
> 20,000 Euro plus an eight week round trip from Oz.
>
> Graeme Cant
>
>>
>> bumper
>> ASH26E
>> Minden, NV
>> "Eric Greenwell" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>
>>>Thatcher Smith wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>I am considering purchasing a self-launcer, likely in Ventus, ASH26, or
>>>>DG808 guise and would like to know:
>>>>
>>>>-do those of you who operate these or similar machines ever lose
>>>>soaring days due to malfunctions in the power system?
>>>
>>>Yes, though the losses can be reduced by taking a tow. In my 11 years of
>>>owning my ASH 26 E, I've only lost a couple days, but that's partly that
>>>depends on when and what problem occurs. Most of the problems were in the
>>>first 3 years; the last 8 have been uneventful.
>>>
>>>The AD history of a particular model will give you an idea of how much it
>>>might have lost over the years; however, many ADs don't immediately stop
>>>a glider from flying, but give it some time to comply. The repairs can
>>>often be scheduled for minimum impact.
>>>
>>>
>>>>-are there large price and/or operating cost differentials between
>>>>these three?
>>>
>>>No, they are very similar in operating cost and price; however, the Solo
>>>2 stroke engine powered Ventus and DG 808 have had more trouble in the
>>>last few years than the Wankel rotary (by Diamond Aircraft) engine
>>>powered ASH 26 E.
>>>
>>>
>>>>-are there reliaibility differences?
>>>
>>>In the last few years, yes, but perhaps the latest fixes for the Solo
>>>engine should close the gap with the Diamond Wankel engine. The future
>>>lies ahead of us, of course, and surprises may be waiting, as owners of
>>>the previous generation of motorgliders will be happy to point out.
>>>
>>>
>>>>-are there build quality/longevity differences?
>>>
>>>Glider or engine?
>>>
>>>
>>>>-is it difficult to find informed persons to service the power system?
>>>
>>>I can't speak for the Solo crowd, but it is to some extent for the
>>>Diamond engine. Even so, anything that does not involve the internals of
>>>the engine can be handled by a competent mechanic (or appropriately
>>>supervised owner); if the problem is internal, it has to go back to the
>>>factory. On the West Coast, Rex Mayes of Williams Soaring can handle
>>>everything but the internals, and likely High Country Soaring in Minden
>>>may also be able to. I'm sure there are others on the East Coast and
>>>elsewhere.
>>>
>>>What makes this acceptable to the ASH owners is an internal problem is
>>>quite rare, and the occasional external problem is generally easy to deal
>>>with.
>>>
>>>For more resources, visit www.motorglider.org, the website of the
>>>Auxiliary-powered Sailplane Association (ASA). There are lists of owners
>>>groups you can visit, and if you become an ASA member, you can post
>>>questions on the ASA newsgroup. And be sure to download "A Guide to
>>>Self-launching Sailplane Operation" from the site, which covers the
>>>things the pilot should know for safe and effective operation.
>>>
>>>--
>>>Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly
>>>
>>>Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
>>>
>>>www.motorglider.org - Download "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane
>>>Operation"
>>
>>

[[email protected]]

Thatcher Smith wrote:
> I would be grateful for any opinions, web searches don't seem to reveal
> much...
>
> I am considering purchasing a self-launcer, likely in Ventus, ASH26, or
> DG808 guise and would like to know:
>
> -do those of you who operate these or similar machines ever lose
> soaring days due to malfunctions in the power system?

Fewer than the number of days I have lost because either the tow plane
was broken or I couldn't find a tow pilot.

> -are there large price and/or operating cost differentials between
> these three?

Yes.

> -are there reliaibility differences?

In my opinion, motorgliders are, by their nature, prototypes. DO NOT
expect the level of engineering and reliability that you would
associate with high volume production aircraft. I have seen failures
that made it clear that the manufacturer did not do design testing that
lasted more than a couple of hours of engine time. I would not by a
motorglider that had not been used less than 5 years. Go to a
convention and you will see very pretty machines that look like they
have been meticulously engineered. Wait until you see these same
machines after they have been used 2-3 years!

I am not saying that the engineering is bad (although I can say have
seen examples of bad engineering), it is just that so few of these
things have actually been built that it takes time for the bugs to be
worked out - which is mostly done by the owners!

> -are there build quality/longevity differences?

Yes!

> -is it difficult to find informed persons to service the power system?

Where do you live? If you are in Europe, no. Elsewhere, yes!

Generally, you will not need to worry about an overhaul, since this
usually takes 25 years of steady use. But there can be failures of
various support systems. I, for instance, had to replace my starter
this winter. The orginal starter motor was no longer available. The
replacement (which, thankfully, I was able to order locally from an
auto parts store!) required fabrication of a new mounting bracket and
machining of two others. A day or two and the job was done. Other
issues have arisen concerning the availability of spare parts for
ageing engines that have been out of production for a number of years.

>
> Thank-you
>
>
> --
> Thatcher Smith

[[email protected]]

Thatcher Smith wrote:
> -do those of you who operate these or similar machines ever lose
> soaring days due to malfunctions in the power system?

To add to the other posts: OF COURSE! My general rule is that the
maintenance on a glider is roughly proportional to its utility. So,
with any motor glider or self launcher, you can probably expect >90% of
your maintenance to be propulsion related. But the ship is >10X as
useful unless you're a purist who only uses the engine to launch. So,
yes, you'll lose some days to propulsion maintenance & repair. But
you'll also get to fly on many more days that it wouldn't make any
sense in a pure glider. Overall, you'll be far ahead in the number of
days you can fly -- particularly if you can base a motorized glider
closer to home than the typical 1-2 hour drive to a gliderport. I'd say
the biggest barrier to most people owning MG's as opposed to unpowered
gliders is cost.

Martin