Lathe, drillpress, milling machine available, but.....

[Michael Horowitz]

The local EAA chapter has a lathe, drillpress, milling machine, etc
set up in the back of the chapter house. As far as I can tell, the
lathe hasn't been used in a while. When I asked, someone rightly
replied they were concerned someone might hurt themselves using the
lathe. Having had some training with a lathe, I recognize that danger,
but there should be a way for the Chapter to feel comfortable
allowing use of the lathe. A training program would be ideal

Has anyone else been faced with this situation and how did it get
solved? - MIke

[wmbjk]

On Sun, 19 Feb 2006 06:26:31 -0500, Michael Horowitz
> wrote:

>The local EAA chapter has a lathe, drillpress, milling machine, etc
>set up in the back of the chapter house. As far as I can tell, the
>lathe hasn't been used in a while. When I asked, someone rightly
>replied they were concerned someone might hurt themselves using the
>lathe. Having had some training with a lathe, I recognize that danger,
>but there should be a way for the Chapter to feel comfortable
>allowing use of the lathe. A training program would be ideal
>
>Has anyone else been faced with this situation and how did it get
>solved? - MIke

You might buy several hockey helmets with face shields, to be used by
nervous club members when operating the drill press and milling
machine. Trade the helmets for the lathe, and take it home for safe
disposal before it can maim or kill anybody.

Wayne

[COLIN LAMB]

If they cannot use a lathe safely, they should not be operating an airplane,
or possibly even driving a car. Forbid anyone from using the lathe unless
they have verifiable training and use manufacturer recommended safeguards.

There are risks inherent in almost anything. People are hurt using
screwdrivers, electric drills, power saws and shears.

If it still is a concern, limit the use to adults and then have them sign an
appropriate release. In addition, you probably should already have some
liability insurance. The dangers from a lathe are much less than a rotating
propeller. I suspect more injuries occur using a drill press than a lathe.

Colin

[kd5sak]

"COLIN LAMB" > wrote in message
ink.net...
> If it still is a concern, limit the use to adults and then have them sign
> an appropriate release. In addition, you probably should already have
> some liability insurance. The dangers from a lathe are much less than a
> rotating propeller. I suspect more injuries occur using a drill press
> than a lathe.
>
> Colin
>
Speaking as an old Jr. High Shop teacher, I suspect you are right about the
drill press.
Especially when attempting to drill sheet metal. If not securely retained
sheet metal instantaneously becomes a rotating blade when the bit grabs, as
it often does. Some of my
60s longhairs also learned they needed to restrain their flowing locks when
working near
rotating machinery. I had to constantly preach on that point. No total
scalpings ever occurred, but it was a constant worry and a few small
floating locks were removed.

Harold
KD5SAK

[RST Engineering]

Go down to your local community college. Find out where the voc ed
department is and explain your problem to the director. Suggest that they
might want to hold a 1 unit class once a year for a full semester on
Saturdays at the hangar. Promise them at least 20 students a class and mean
it. You might even suggest that somebody in the chapter who is a skilled
machinist could qualify for a voc ed credential (or min quals, or whatever
your state requires) and teach the class. Salary for a 1 unit class for a
full semester is somewhere around $1500, which will buy a hell of a lot of
beer for the Friday night come-to-Jesus meeting.

A 1 unit class is two hours a week for an 18 week semester and most
community colleges will jump at the chance to get the equivalent of 1 fte
(full time equivalent) student for peanuts. Have the voc ed instructor gin
up some sort of certificate for those who pass the class (or those who get a
B or better, or whatever criteria you want, but I don't want C students
working on MY equipment) and keep a log of those who have passed the
certificate. No class, no use.

In California, a 1 unit class is $24 plus whatever "student" fees (health,
library, etc.) are tacked on no matter HOW many units you take. Certainly
less than $50.

Jim



"Michael Horowitz" > wrote in message
...
> The local EAA chapter has a lathe, drillpress, milling machine, etc
> set up in the back of the chapter house. As far as I can tell, the
> lathe hasn't been used in a while. When I asked, someone rightly
> replied they were concerned someone might hurt themselves using the
> lathe. Having had some training with a lathe, I recognize that danger,
> but there should be a way for the Chapter to feel comfortable
> allowing use of the lathe. A training program would be ideal
>
> Has anyone else been faced with this situation and how did it get
> solved? - MIke

[COLIN LAMB]

>Go down to your local community college.

What a great idea. Learning to use tools such as lathes and milling
machines is a joy and having such a tool should be an incentive to join an
EAA chapter.

When it comes to reasons for joining an EAA chapter, the opportunity to
learn new skills and use specialized equipment I did not have at home, and
watching others who were experienced using that tool, I would put that way
above drinking beer and telling old war stories, as much as I like to do
that.

Colin

[Dan]

kd5sak wrote:
> "COLIN LAMB" > wrote in message
> ink.net...
>> If it still is a concern, limit the use to adults and then have them sign
>> an appropriate release. In addition, you probably should already have
>> some liability insurance. The dangers from a lathe are much less than a
>> rotating propeller. I suspect more injuries occur using a drill press
>> than a lathe.
>>
>> Colin
>>
> Speaking as an old Jr. High Shop teacher, I suspect you are right about the
> drill press.
> Especially when attempting to drill sheet metal. If not securely retained
> sheet metal instantaneously becomes a rotating blade when the bit grabs, as
> it often does. Some of my
> 60s longhairs also learned they needed to restrain their flowing locks when
> working near
> rotating machinery. I had to constantly preach on that point. No total
> scalpings ever occurred, but it was a constant worry and a few small
> floating locks were removed.
>
> Harold
> KD5SAK
>
>
With lathes I remember a major hazard was ties when someone would
flip his over his shoulder or tuck it into his apron instead of removing
it.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

[Jim Carriere]

Dan wrote:
> kd5sak wrote:
>> "COLIN LAMB" > wrote in message
>> ink.net...
>>> If it still is a concern, limit the use to adults and then have them
>>> sign an appropriate release. In addition, you probably should
>>> already have some liability insurance. The dangers from a lathe are
>>> much less than a rotating propeller. I suspect more injuries occur
>>> using a drill press than a lathe.
>>>
>>> Colin
>>>
>> Speaking as an old Jr. High Shop teacher, I suspect you are right
>> about the drill press.
>> Especially when attempting to drill sheet metal. If not securely
>> retained sheet metal instantaneously becomes a rotating blade when
>> the bit grabs, as it often does. Some of my
>> 60s longhairs also learned they needed to restrain their flowing locks
>> when working near
>> rotating machinery. I had to constantly preach on that point. No total
>> scalpings ever occurred, but it was a constant worry and a few small
>> floating locks were removed.
>>
>> Harold
>> KD5SAK
>>
> With lathes I remember a major hazard was ties when someone would flip
> his over his shoulder or tuck it into his apron instead of removing it.

Then you have forgetting the chuck key in the chuck (duck!) :)

Next, cutting too much material at once resulting in a broken cutting
tool (crack!), an ugly workpiece, and a lesson learned... which is also
why one wears eye protection.


Serious suggestion:

Maybe you (the original poster) could run a hands-on demo at the next
chapter meeting. If you could make even a small number of people (three
or four?) not afraid to use it that might do the trick. Who here admits
to experiencing, as a builder, fear of the unknown, be it tools,
welding, metal wood, glass/composite, etc, on at least one occasion? I
admit it.

[[email protected]]

COLIN LAMB wrote:
> If they cannot use a lathe safely, they should not be operating an airplane,
> or possibly even driving a car.

Well that has to be one of the ten stupidest things I ever seen on
Usenet.

The knowledge skills required to safely operate a lathe are
significantly
different from those required for flying or driving. People who are
highly
competent as pilots may still not know a damned thing about lathes.

> Forbid anyone from using the lathe unless
> they have verifiable training and use manufacturer recommended safeguards.

OTOH, that is a smart statement.

>
> There are risks inherent in almost anything. People are hurt using
> screwdrivers, electric drills, power saws and shears.

Yes, that is why people need to be taught about those things, just like
they need to be taught how to fly. Some of the hazards are not
obvious.

>
> If it still is a concern, limit the use to adults and then have them sign an
> appropriate release.

Obviously, THAT should be done, no 'if anything'.

> In addition, you probably should already have some
> liability insurance. The dangers from a lathe are much less than a rotating
> propeller. I suspect more injuries occur using a drill press than a lathe.
>

People seldom work as close to a lathe as they do a propellor, they
typically are not trying to see what is going on close to the hub.

You are probably right about the drill press vs the lathe because many
more people use a drill press. OTOH I'll bet the typical lathe injury
is worse than the typical drill press injury.

--

FF

[Montblack]

("COLIN LAMB" wrote)
> There are risks inherent in almost anything. People are hurt using
> screwdrivers, electric drills, power saws and shears.


Using a #2 Phillips bit in an electric drill is a double hazard.

So I've heard...


Montblack
(Finger tip)

[[email protected]]

wrote:
> ...
>
> People seldom work as close to a lathe as they do a propellor, ...

LOL! Add that to the top ten list. I meant vice-versa.

--

FF

[kd5sak]

"Dan" > wrote in message
news:RC3Kf.4733$Ug4.1284@dukeread12...
> kd5sak wrote:
>>
> With lathes I remember a major hazard was ties when someone would flip
> his over his shoulder or tuck it into his apron instead of removing it.
>
> Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

You just made me remember ties. My principal got enthused about teachers
looking unprofessional and required that all shop teachers wear one. Now one
feature of my personality is my undeniable propensity for "messin'" with
authority. I did comply with his dress requirement, but my tie was always a
"clip-on" and, in class, it was usually clipped to my shirt pocket. He never
questioned my fashion selection, but we'd have had a discussion on safety
issues if the point had been raised.(G)

Harold
KD5SAK

[John Ammeter]

Morgans wrote:
> "Jim Carriere" > wrote
>
>
>>Then you have forgetting the chuck key in the chuck (duck!) :)
>
>
> I have a serious suggestion to solve that problem. I am a shop (carpentry)
> teacher, and it is convenient, impossible to loose a key, and safe.
>
> Tape (or buy a holder) the chuck key to the power cord, about a foot from
> the plug.
>
> You have to unplug the drill while changing bits. (good idea)
> You keep from misplacing the chuck key (a good thing)
> You never will turn on the drill press with the chuck key in the drill. (a
> very good thing)


My drill press has a foot momentary contact switch on it. When I was
cutting out the lightening holes in the wing ribs for my RV-6 I clamped
the rib to the press table in two places before ever spinning the fly
cutter. I figured the two clamps plus the foot switch would lessen the
chances of doing open chest surgery on myself with a spinning wing rib.

The chuck key for my lathe has a spring on it. You have to press the
key into the chuck and, as soon as you stop pushing on the key, the key
pops out of the chuck.

The drill press we had at work had a safety interlock that really
worked. You had to put the chuck key arm in a switch before the drill
press could be turned on. The chuck key arm would activate a momentary
contact switch in the circuit for the drill press... no chuck key in the
switch, no drill press operation...

[Morgans]

"Jim Carriere" > wrote

> Then you have forgetting the chuck key in the chuck (duck!) :)

I have a serious suggestion to solve that problem. I am a shop (carpentry)
teacher, and it is convenient, impossible to loose a key, and safe.

Tape (or buy a holder) the chuck key to the power cord, about a foot from
the plug.

You have to unplug the drill while changing bits. (good idea)
You keep from misplacing the chuck key (a good thing)
You never will turn on the drill press with the chuck key in the drill. (a
very good thing)
--
Jim in NC

[COLIN LAMB]

> If they cannot use a lathe safely, they should not be operating an
> airplane,
> or possibly even driving a car.

"Well that has to be one of the ten stupidest things I ever seen on
Usenet. The knowledge skills required to safely operate a lathe are
significantly
different from those required for flying or driving. People who are
highly competent as pilots may still not know a damned thing about lathes."

Response:

Implicit in the word "safely" is the knowledge of how to operate it. It was
not a statement that someone should be able to operate a lathe without
training any more than they could operate an airplane or car without
training. As a matter of fact, people who are highly competent as pilots
may not be able to fly many aircraft - without training for that particular
aircraft. So, I shall restate it - if someone can learn to operate an
automobile or airplane safely, they can learn to operate a lathe.

As to the "well that has to be one of the ten stupidest things I ever seen
on Usenet.", I am not sure that added anything to the conversation other
than a public demonstration of improper grammar.

My chuck key had a spring in it to prevent leaving in the chuck. Problem
was that it would fly out after removing the chuck and I would spend a half
hour trying to find the spring and pin. I finally just glued it in and hang
it next to the switch. I did have a problem once with a hand drill. I was
wiring my house and up on a ladder about 15 feet and drilling through a beam
with a 1/2" drill. The bit caught on a knot and ripped me off the ladder
and started spinning me around. While I was turning, I realized what the
screw on handle was for. I managed to avoid injury, but felt stupid.

Colin

[Morgans]

"John Ammeter"

> The drill press we had at work had a safety interlock that really worked.
> You had to put the chuck key arm in a switch before the drill press could
> be turned on. The chuck key arm would activate a momentary contact switch
> in the circuit for the drill press... no chuck key in the switch, no drill
> press operation...

Sounds like a nice setup.

Do you also have to have a guard around the drilling area?

I see those in catalogs, but can not imagine how you could use one, and
still work in control, and be safe.
--
Jim in NC

[Michael Horowitz]

On Sun, 19 Feb 2006 15:12:17 GMT, wmbjk >
wrote:

>On Sun, 19 Feb 2006 06:26:31 -0500, Michael Horowitz
> wrote:
>
>>The local EAA chapter has a lathe, drillpress, milling machine, etc
>>set up in the back of the chapter house. As far as I can tell, the
>>lathe hasn't been used in a while. When I asked, someone rightly
>>replied they were concerned someone might hurt themselves using the
>>lathe. Having had some training with a lathe, I recognize that danger,
>>but there should be a way for the Chapter to feel comfortable
>>allowing use of the lathe. A training program would be ideal
>>
>>Has anyone else been faced with this situation and how did it get
>>solved? - MIke
>
>You might buy several hockey helmets with face shields, to be used by
>nervous club members when operating the drill press and milling
>machine. Trade the helmets for the lathe, and take it home for safe
>disposal before it can maim or kill anybody.
>
>Wayne

Wayne - that went WAY over my head! - Mike

[RST Engineering]

Yup, and the first thing the kid learns from the senior class is that a #29
drill shank will defeat that safety switch nicely.



"John Ammeter" > wrote in message
...


> The drill press we had at work had a safety interlock that really worked.
> You had to put the chuck key arm in a switch before the drill press could
> be turned on. The chuck key arm would activate a momentary contact switch
> in the circuit for the drill press... no chuck key in the switch, no drill
> press operation...

[John Ammeter]

True... you're only as safe as you want to be.

RST Engineering wrote:
> Yup, and the first thing the kid learns from the senior class is that a #29
> drill shank will defeat that safety switch nicely.
>
>
>
> "John Ammeter" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>
>
>>The drill press we had at work had a safety interlock that really worked.
>>You had to put the chuck key arm in a switch before the drill press could
>>be turned on. The chuck key arm would activate a momentary contact switch
>>in the circuit for the drill press... no chuck key in the switch, no drill
>>press operation...
>
>
>

[stol]

often does. Some of my
60s longhairs also learned they needed to restrain their flowing locks
when
working near
rotating machinery. I had to constantly preach on that point. No total
scalpings ever occurred, but it was a constant worry and a few small
floating locks were removed.

Harold
KD5SAK

///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
Boy does that bring back a funny memory. Back in the early 70's when I
was in shop class down in Coral Gables High we had a great teacher who
was a bit of a "redneck". There was this kid named Tracy who had hair
down to the middle of his back, that kinda bothered poor ol Mr S but he
was a trooper and didn't give this guy too big of a hard time. Mr S
always kept the belt on the drill press set on the loose side so if
there was a hang up no one would get hurt too bad. Well, one day Tracy
was using the drill press and leaned over a bit too far and got his
hair tangled up in the chuck and sure enough it yanked him right into
the press. The teachers desk was about 50 feet away and after Mr S
realized there wasn't a huge threat to this kids life he SLOWLY got out
of his desk, walked over to the press and turned off the switch. By
this time the whole class was gathered around the scene and it was
clear Tracy was not hurt, but for sure pinned tightly to the chuck. By
about this time a grin came across Mr S's face and instead of just
grabbing the chuck and revolving it backwards to unwind his hair, he
slowly walked over to the tool board and got a big pair of scissors. Up
till then poor Tracy wasn't making any noises, that is till he saw the
scissors. Then the screaming started ..... Of course ya all know what
happened next <G>. The whole class laughed till we all ****ed in our
pants. Those were the good ol days................

[Morgans]

"COLIN LAMB" > wrote

> I was
> wiring my house and up on a ladder about 15 feet and drilling through a
beam
> with a 1/2" drill. The bit caught on a knot and ripped me off the ladder
> and started spinning me around. While I was turning, I realized what the
> screw on handle was for. I managed to avoid injury, but felt stupid.

I think that anyone who does enough wiring or plumbing on a house will, or
already has had, a problem like that.

I remember using a 3 1/2" hole saw, cutting though the top plate, to receive
a vent line. The saw was in a big 'ole 1/2" drill with all kinds of
torque, and I hit something (a nail, I think) that stopped it cold.

I was on a ladder, too, and had the trigger lock on. It ripped partially
loose from my hand, only after convincing me to let go of it. It convinced
me by slapping my knuckles harder than Sister Mary's ruler, on the
surrounding wood. By that time, my perch was about to tip over, and did,
just as I let go.

The drill only stopped it's contortions after it wound all of it's power
cord around itself, and it came unplugged from the extension cord. I was
glad, in that case, that I had not tied the two cords together, like I am
known to do. It would have taken a good while more to wrap up 25 more feet
of cord! <g>
--
Jim in NC

[Richard Lamb]

Michael Horowitz wrote:

> On Sun, 19 Feb 2006 15:12:17 GMT, wmbjk >
> wrote:
>
>
>>On Sun, 19 Feb 2006 06:26:31 -0500, Michael Horowitz
> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>The local EAA chapter has a lathe, drillpress, milling machine, etc
>>>set up in the back of the chapter house. As far as I can tell, the
>>>lathe hasn't been used in a while. When I asked, someone rightly
>>>replied they were concerned someone might hurt themselves using the
>>>lathe. Having had some training with a lathe, I recognize that danger,
>>>but there should be a way for the Chapter to feel comfortable
>>>allowing use of the lathe. A training program would be ideal
>>>
>>>Has anyone else been faced with this situation and how did it get
>>>solved? - MIke
>>
>>You might buy several hockey helmets with face shields, to be used by
>>nervous club members when operating the drill press and milling
>>machine. Trade the helmets for the lathe, and take it home for safe
>>disposal before it can maim or kill anybody.
>>
>>Wayne
>
>
> Wayne - that went WAY over my head! - Mike
>
A little tongue-in-cheek suggestion for a way to remove the danger of
legal liability for the chapter...

Win-Win if they should accept such a generous offer!

Richard

[Errol Groff]

On Sun, 19 Feb 2006 06:26:31 -0500, Michael Horowitz
> wrote:

>The local EAA chapter has a lathe, drillpress, milling machine, etc
>set up in the back of the chapter house. As far as I can tell, the
>lathe hasn't been used in a while. When I asked, someone rightly
>replied they were concerned someone might hurt themselves using the
>lathe. Having had some training with a lathe, I recognize that danger,
>but there should be a way for the Chapter to feel comfortable
>allowing use of the lathe. A training program would be ideal
>
>Has anyone else been faced with this situation and how did it get
>solved? - MIke

May I suggest the following:

1. Go to http://www.lindsaybks.com/ and look forthis title: How To
Run a Lathe by South Bend Lathe. Make it part of the chapter library
and require those who want to use the lathe to read it before use.

2. Mandatory safety glasses

3. Keep you knuckles away from the chuck at all times

3A. Take the chuck wrench out of the chuck unless it is actually
being used to tighten or loosen the work.

4. Many light cuts are safer for the beginner than a few heavy cuts

I have taught roughly 3500 freshman students in the past 19 years to
use a lathe and have seen only a time handful of serious injuries.

Any adult with enough common sense to tackle building an airplane
SHOULD have enough common sense to run a lathe.

Errol Groff

Instructor, Manufacturing Technology
H.H. Ellis Technical High School
613 Upper Maple Street
Danielson, CT 06239

New England Model Engineering Society
www.neme-s.org

[Morgans]

"Errol Groff" > wrote

> 1. Go to http://www.lindsaybks.com/ and look forthis title: How To
> Run a Lathe by South Bend Lathe.

I was not able to identify a book by that name. Help? <g?>
--
Jim in NC

[Errol Groff]

On Mon, 20 Feb 2006 17:38:27 -0500, "Morgans"
> wrote:

>
>"Errol Groff" > wrote
>
>> 1. Go to http://www.lindsaybks.com/ and look forthis title: How To
>> Run a Lathe by South Bend Lathe.
>
>I was not able to identify a book by that name. Help? <g?>

The link was Popular Lathe Books

http://www.lindsaybks.com/bks/lathebk/index.html

Errol Groff
EAA 60159

[Dan]

Errol Groff wrote:
> On Sun, 19 Feb 2006 06:26:31 -0500, Michael Horowitz
> > wrote:
>
<nip>
>
> 3. Keep you knuckles away from the chuck at all times

You, sir, are no fun.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

[Roger]

On Sun, 19 Feb 2006 06:26:31 -0500, Michael Horowitz
> wrote:

>The local EAA chapter has a lathe, drillpress, milling machine, etc
>set up in the back of the chapter house. As far as I can tell, the
>lathe hasn't been used in a while. When I asked, someone rightly
>replied they were concerned someone might hurt themselves using the
>lathe. Having had some training with a lathe, I recognize that danger,
>but there should be a way for the Chapter to feel comfortable
>allowing use of the lathe. A training program would be ideal
>
>Has anyone else been faced with this situation and how did it get
>solved? - MIke

We basically rely on people knowing how to use the equipment, with the
earning, if you aren't familiar with it, don't use it. That has
worked for some time now. OTOH I've missed so many meetings in the
past two years they may have some sort of formal program in place now.
Still there are many of us willing to help others learn not to leave
the chuck key in place and what parts are likely to reach out and grab
fingers and loose clothes.. Of course we could make sure it's *their*
airplane in front of the lathe while they are using it. <:-))

In general the mill is just a big drill press and about as safe unless
using a fly cutter.

We do have face shields, but they need their own leather gloves. I
almost always wear tight fitting leather gloves and short sleeve
shirts when working with machine tools.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

[Roger]

On 19 Feb 2006 13:00:19 -0800, wrote:

>
wrote:
>> ...
>>
>> People seldom work as close to a lathe as they do a propellor, ...
>
>LOL! Add that to the top ten list. I meant vice-versa.

You guys gotta be kidding? I've never been a close to a running prop
as I have a running lathe with hands and arms within inches of moving
things, hence the reason for never wearing long sleeve shirts when
working with machine tools. I've never been within two feet of a
running prop.

I used to get a lot of requests to "sharpen my bit" as I would
*finish* the edge of the bit on a buffing wheel. You could easily
shave the hair off your arm without soap or water and they'd really
hold that edge.

But as to safety, I've had a half inch drill bit pull a piece a 1/4
inch Aluminum out of the clamps and try to beat the column to death,
but I've never seen anything throw a piece like an innocent looking
surface grinder. I saw one smash a hole in concrete block wall.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

[Roger]

On Sun, 19 Feb 2006 22:41:15 -0500, "Morgans"
> wrote:

>
>"COLIN LAMB" > wrote
>
>> I was
>> wiring my house and up on a ladder about 15 feet and drilling through a
>beam
>> with a 1/2" drill. The bit caught on a knot and ripped me off the ladder
>> and started spinning me around. While I was turning, I realized what the
>> screw on handle was for. I managed to avoid injury, but felt stupid.
>
>I think that anyone who does enough wiring or plumbing on a house will, or
>already has had, a problem like that.
>
>I remember using a 3 1/2" hole saw, cutting though the top plate, to receive
>a vent line. The saw was in a big 'ole 1/2" drill with all kinds of
>torque, and I hit something (a nail, I think) that stopped it cold.
>
>I was on a ladder, too, and had the trigger lock on. It ripped partially
>loose from my hand, only after convincing me to let go of it. It convinced
>me by slapping my knuckles harder than Sister Mary's ruler, on the
>surrounding wood. By that time, my perch was about to tip over, and did,
>just as I let go.
>
>The drill only stopped it's contortions after it wound all of it's power
>cord around itself, and it came unplugged from the extension cord. I was
>glad, in that case, that I had not tied the two cords together, like I am
>known to do. It would have taken a good while more to wrap up 25 more feet
>of cord! <g>


It's surprising how fast it can wrap up a 25, 50, or even 100 foot
cord. You have to be careful about how you hold the grip and switch as
you can get into a position where the drill catching will make you
hole the switch tighter. We had an electrician working way up on top
of a 4 story building. He wasn't so lucky, The cord managed to wrap
around his thumb and pulled it out by the roots. After that he had to
climb down two flights of ladders mounted on the side of the upper
floors.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

[Roger]

On Sun, 19 Feb 2006 09:43:09 -0800, "RST Engineering"
> wrote:

>Go down to your local community college. Find out where the voc ed
>department is and explain your problem to the director. Suggest that they
>might want to hold a 1 unit class once a year for a full semester on
>Saturdays at the hangar. Promise them at least 20 students a class and mean
>it. You might even suggest that somebody in the chapter who is a skilled
>machinist could qualify for a voc ed credential (or min quals, or whatever
>your state requires) and teach the class. Salary for a 1 unit class for a

If it's not grade school kids I don't think most states have any
requirements. It doesn't even require a degree to teach at the
college level in many states. OTOH no many colleges will use a teacher
without a degree.

>full semester is somewhere around $1500, which will buy a hell of a lot of
>beer for the Friday night come-to-Jesus meeting.
>
>A 1 unit class is two hours a week for an 18 week semester and most
>community colleges will jump at the chance to get the equivalent of 1 fte
>(full time equivalent) student for peanuts. Have the voc ed instructor gin
>up some sort of certificate for those who pass the class (or those who get a
>B or better, or whatever criteria you want, but I don't want C students

C is average which is supposed to indicate adequate knowledge. B is
above average.

>working on MY equipment) and keep a log of those who have passed the
>certificate. No class, no use.
>
>In California, a 1 unit class is $24 plus whatever "student" fees (health,
>library, etc.) are tacked on no matter HOW many units you take. Certainly
>less than $50.

I think that is probably one of the few things that are cheaper in
Ca<:-))

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com
>
>Jim
>
>
>
>"Michael Horowitz" > wrote in message
...
>> The local EAA chapter has a lathe, drillpress, milling machine, etc
>> set up in the back of the chapter house. As far as I can tell, the
>> lathe hasn't been used in a while. When I asked, someone rightly
>> replied they were concerned someone might hurt themselves using the
>> lathe. Having had some training with a lathe, I recognize that danger,
>> but there should be a way for the Chapter to feel comfortable
>> allowing use of the lathe. A training program would be ideal
>>
>> Has anyone else been faced with this situation and how did it get
>> solved? - MIke
>

[Dan]

Roger wrote:
> On 19 Feb 2006 13:00:19 -0800, wrote:
>
>> wrote:
>>> ...
>>>
>>> People seldom work as close to a lathe as they do a propellor, ...
>> LOL! Add that to the top ten list. I meant vice-versa.
>
> You guys gotta be kidding? I've never been a close to a running prop
> as I have a running lathe with hands and arms within inches of moving
> things, hence the reason for never wearing long sleeve shirts when
> working with machine tools. I've never been within two feet of a
> running prop.
>
> I used to get a lot of requests to "sharpen my bit" as I would
> *finish* the edge of the bit on a buffing wheel. You could easily
> shave the hair off your arm without soap or water and they'd really
> hold that edge.
>
> But as to safety, I've had a half inch drill bit pull a piece a 1/4
> inch Aluminum out of the clamps and try to beat the column to death,
> but I've never seen anything throw a piece like an innocent looking
> surface grinder. I saw one smash a hole in concrete block wall.
>
> Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
> (N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
> www.rogerhalstead.com

Surface grinders are God's way of reminding you there's no such
thing as enough clamping force. My claim to fame is 10 feet with no
audience.

Now if you want to talk about unpowered tools that demand total
attention think of the english wheel. It's great for making blood squirt
out from under your nails and for causing one to cuss.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

[RST Engineering]

>
> If it's not grade school kids I don't think most states have any
> requirements. It doesn't even require a degree to teach at the
> college level in many states. OTOH no many colleges will use a teacher
> without a degree.

If it an "academic" subject (history, english, etc.) it requires a masters
degree for starters. For voc-ed, it requires either a masters, a bachelors
plus two years paid service in that vocation, or an associates plus five
years. There are a FEW of us old geezers around that got our commcoll
"credential" over 40 years ago, but even then it was for the subjects that
didn't have a degree program (like aviation ground school). If you wanted
an academic credential or a voc ed credential way back then, it was a degree
plus experience for openers.

We have a great electronics prof in our department who has one of the best
teaching styles I've ever seen, but his bachelors is in history, with 25
years as a non-degreed electronics engineer. I know he can program rings
around me, and I don't think the degree did anything for him except teach
him how to teach.

This is for community college in California only. I don't speak for the
university system or any other state, but I know of no university teacher
without at least a bachelors and working on a masters.

>
> C is average which is supposed to indicate adequate knowledge. B is
> above average.

That used to be true. Current thinking is that a C is "just barely
passing", a D is unsatisfactory work, and F is failure. I don't want "just
barely passing" flailing around on my lathe.

>
> I think that is probably one of the few things that are cheaper in
> Ca<:-))

College, nasty women, avocados, and wine. All else is higher. {;-)

Jim

[Don W]

Roger wrote:
> But as to safety, I've had a half inch drill bit pull a piece a 1/4
> inch Aluminum out of the clamps and try to beat the column to death,
> but I've never seen anything throw a piece like an innocent looking
> surface grinder. I saw one smash a hole in concrete block wall.
>
> Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
> (N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
> www.rogerhalstead.com

You got that right about the surface grinder! I worked in the
Wichita State University machine shop during engineering school,
and I once saw the surface grinder throw a BIG hunk of steel
across the room. Along with the shrapnel from the grinding
wheel, it was pretty impressive. The thing that made it even
more memorable was that the grinder was being operated by the shop
foreman at the time <g>

Don W.

[John Ammeter]

Roger wrote:

> In general the mill is just a big drill press and about as safe unless
> using a fly cutter.
>
> We do have face shields, but they need their own leather gloves. I
> almost always wear tight fitting leather gloves and short sleeve
> shirts when working with machine tools.
>
> Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
> (N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
> www.rogerhalstead.com


Roger,

I'm not sure I can agree with you about wearing gloves. If you get your
gloved fingers too close to the spinning bit you risk the bit "grabbing"
your glove and pulling your hand into it. On the other hand, if you're
not wearing a glove you might lose a bit of skin or get cut but it's
unlikely you'd be "grabbed" by the bit.

I agree completely about wearing short sleeve shirts. However, that
"rule" goes 100% against the rule to always wear long sleeved cotton
shirts when working around electricity. Since our shop was part of the
Technical Metering Department we would often move directly from a 480
test setup to the drill press...

Different hazards.... different rules...

John

[kd5sak]

"Don W" > wrote in message
om...
>
> Roger wrote:
>> But as to safety, I've had a half inch drill bit pull a piece a 1/4
>> inch Aluminum out of the clamps and try to beat the column to death,
>> but I've never seen anything throw a piece like an innocent looking
>> surface grinder. I saw one smash a hole in concrete block wall.
>>
>> Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
>> (N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)

At my school wood shop we had a large planer with a huge heavy duty vacuum
chip catcher located about 10 feet from a large table saw. The chip catcher
had a fairly thick metal cabinet and there were numerous deep small diameter
dents in the cabinet. These
dents were the result of improper choices made by persons using the saw.
Kick backs
from cutting small slices off the wrong side of the material resulted in
unsupported spearlike scrap pieces jamming between blade and fence and then
being propelled
off the back of the saw at high velocities. I'd carefully demonstrate this
as part of my safety classes at the beginning of each semester and point out
the dented equipment. While I taught there, I never had a student make that
particular error. Any additional dents added during my time in that shop
were carefully staged Demos.

Harold
KD5SAK

[Morgans]

"Roger" > wrote

> C is average which is supposed to indicate adequate knowledge. B is
> above average.

C means that the student has average grasp of the material. That means they
will have an average number of accidents.

I could just be a hard ass, but that isn't good enough for me. My students
must get a high A on all safety related tests. Then, they must be able to
give me the correct answer to any of the missed questions on the first try,
or they have to take the whole test over again, and again, until they can do
so.

It must work. My students have very few serious accidents in the shop, or
on the job site.
--
Jim in NC

[Tom Wait]

"Michael Horowitz" > wrote in message
...
> The local EAA chapter has a lathe, drillpress, milling machine, etc
> set up in the back of the chapter house. As far as I can tell, the
> lathe hasn't been used in a while. When I asked, someone rightly
> replied they were concerned someone might hurt themselves using the
> lathe. Having had some training with a lathe, I recognize that danger,
> but there should be a way for the Chapter to feel comfortable
> allowing use of the lathe. A training program would be ideal
>
> Has anyone else been faced with this situation and how did it get
> solved? - MIke

Those machine are killers. I suggest they pack them up and ship them to:
--
Tom Wait
Barton Rifle Shop
1805 Barton Ave Suite #9
West Bend, Wisconsin 53090
(262) 306-RIFL (7435)

for proper disposal. Being an EAA member myself, I'll volunteer my services
and not ask for any remuneration.
Tom
>

[Tom Wait]

"Tom Wait" > wrote in message
et...
>
> "Michael Horowitz" > wrote in message
> ...
> > The local EAA chapter has a lathe, drillpress, milling machine, etc
> > set up in the back of the chapter house. As far as I can tell, the
> > lathe hasn't been used in a while. When I asked, someone rightly
> > replied they were concerned someone might hurt themselves using the
> > lathe. Having had some training with a lathe, I recognize that danger,
> > but there should be a way for the Chapter to feel comfortable
> > allowing use of the lathe. A training program would be ideal
> >
> > Has anyone else been faced with this situation and how did it get
> > solved? - MIke
>
> Those machine are killers. I suggest they pack them up and ship them to:
> --
> Tom Wait
> Barton Rifle Shop
> 1805 Barton Ave Suite #9
> West Bend, Wisconsin 53090
> (262) 306-RIFL (7435)
>
> for proper disposal. Being an EAA member myself, I'll volunteer my
services
> and not ask for any remuneration.
> Tom
Seriously, if you guys want to stop at my shop on the way to OSH or any time
I'll be glad to give a class on machining. You brinng the beveridges.
Tom
> >
>
>

[Dan]

Tom Wait wrote:
> "Michael Horowitz" > wrote in message
> ...
>> The local EAA chapter has a lathe, drillpress, milling machine, etc
>> set up in the back of the chapter house. As far as I can tell, the
>> lathe hasn't been used in a while. When I asked, someone rightly
>> replied they were concerned someone might hurt themselves using the
>> lathe. Having had some training with a lathe, I recognize that danger,
>> but there should be a way for the Chapter to feel comfortable
>> allowing use of the lathe. A training program would be ideal
>>
>> Has anyone else been faced with this situation and how did it get
>> solved? - MIke
>
> Those machine are killers. I suggest they pack them up and ship them to:

Tom, you are such a gentleman. However I can't let you risk personal
injury so to protect you they should be shipped to me. I will be willing
to pay shipping to protect others.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

[Don W]

Dan wrote:
> Tom Wait wrote:
>
>> "Michael Horowitz" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>
>>> The local EAA chapter has a lathe, drillpress, milling machine, etc
>>> set up in the back of the chapter house. As far as I can tell, the
>>> lathe hasn't been used in a while. When I asked, someone rightly
>>> replied they were concerned someone might hurt themselves using the
>>> lathe. Having had some training with a lathe, I recognize that danger,
>>> but there should be a way for the Chapter to feel comfortable
>>> allowing use of the lathe. A training program would be ideal
>>>
>>> Has anyone else been faced with this situation and how did it get
>>> solved? - MIke
>>
>>
>> Those machine are killers. I suggest they pack them up and ship them to:
>
>
> Tom, you are such a gentleman. However I can't let you risk personal
> injury so to protect you they should be shipped to me. I will be willing
> to pay shipping to protect others.
>
> Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

Dan, You and Tom are obviously concerned for the good of others, and
I commend you. However, I'd be willing to come pick them up tomorrow
just to make sure that no one gets hurt in the meantime. Those machines
are just like a loaded gun laying around waiting for one of the kids to
pick it up. Think of the liability ;-)

Don W.

[Roger]

On Tue, 21 Feb 2006 07:45:01 -0800, "RST Engineering"
> wrote:

>
>>
>> If it's not grade school kids I don't think most states have any
>> requirements. It doesn't even require a degree to teach at the
>> college level in many states. OTOH no many colleges will use a teacher
>> without a degree.
>
>If it an "academic" subject (history, english, etc.) it requires a masters
>degree for starters. For voc-ed, it requires either a masters, a bachelors

Not here. There are, or at least weren't any state requirements for
teachers above the high school level. The colleges and universities
set their own standards.

>plus two years paid service in that vocation, or an associates plus five
>years. There are a FEW of us old geezers around that got our commcoll
>"credential" over 40 years ago, but even then it was for the subjects that
>didn't have a degree program (like aviation ground school). If you wanted

Surprisingly, my ground school was a 4 college credit course and I
believe the instructor had his masters.

>an academic credential or a voc ed credential way back then, it was a degree
>plus experience for openers.
>
>We have a great electronics prof in our department who has one of the best
>teaching styles I've ever seen, but his bachelors is in history, with 25
>years as a non-degreed electronics engineer. I know he can program rings
>around me, and I don't think the degree did anything for him except teach
>him how to teach.

And for me the degree didn't teach me anything about teaching. <:-))
It sure did open up a lot of doors though.

I find many companies care more about the degree than they do the
persons capabilities.

>

One of the best computer architecture and machine language instructors
at one of the colleges I attended here in Michigan had never been to
college. He did pick up a few courses after he'd been teaching for
something like 12 to 15 years. A few years back they decided he
should have a degree so they sent him to another university to get his
teaching degree. (they were paying) Unfortunately, the other
university would not accept his 12 to 15 years of teaching as
experience and said he had to do the student teaching part of the
course which is not needed for teaching above the high school level.
Although he was almost ready to graduate and only needed that student
teaching part, he couldn't afford to continue to go without pay for
that much longer. So, now he's out working in industry.

I taught some Vo Ed classes before I went back to college to get my
degree.

>This is for community college in California only. I don't speak for the
>university system or any other state, but I know of no university teacher
>without at least a bachelors and working on a masters.

Many of our universities around here use "adjunct" faculty for evening
classes and although there is no formal requirement, I don't know of
any at present that will take some one without a degree, but there are
many teaching physics, chemistry, and astronomy with just a bachelors
degree.

>
>>
>> C is average which is supposed to indicate adequate knowledge. B is
>> above average.
>
>That used to be true. Current thinking is that a C is "just barely
>passing", a D is unsatisfactory work, and F is failure. I don't want "just
>barely passing" flailing around on my lathe.

Again that depends on the state and grading system. Here at least at
the university level most grade on the curve so I always hoped I
didn't end up in a class with 3 or 4 geniuses which would put an A out
of the question. Here, the peak of the curve is considered average.
OTOH they had just added "Writing across the curriculum" when I
started back to college so while most of the students groaned at the
thought I took the opportunity to gain a few points.

At least we don't still have "outcome based education" in the high
schools, but the "no child left behind" program is almost as bad in
some areas. They keep putting the wrong people in charge of these
programs.

>
>>
>> I think that is probably one of the few things that are cheaper in
>> Ca<:-))
>
>College, nasty women, avocados, and wine. All else is higher. {;-)

Certainly not property or the cost of living<:-))

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

>
>Jim
>

[RST Engineering]

As I said, I speak only for California. THe colleges and universities all
set their standards through their various state Chancellors' offices, so
there is a statewide standard, albeit not set in legislation or Ed Code.

Jim


>
> Not here. There are, or at least weren't any state requirements for
> teachers above the high school level. The colleges and universities
> set their own standards.

[Dan]

Don W wrote:
>
>
> Dan wrote:
>> Tom Wait wrote:
>>
>>> "Michael Horowitz" > wrote in message
>>> ...
>>>
>>>> The local EAA chapter has a lathe, drillpress, milling machine, etc
>>>> set up in the back of the chapter house. As far as I can tell, the
>>>> lathe hasn't been used in a while. When I asked, someone rightly
>>>> replied they were concerned someone might hurt themselves using the
>>>> lathe. Having had some training with a lathe, I recognize that danger,
>>>> but there should be a way for the Chapter to feel comfortable
>>>> allowing use of the lathe. A training program would be ideal
>>>>
>>>> Has anyone else been faced with this situation and how did it get
>>>> solved? - MIke
>>>
>>>
>>> Those machine are killers. I suggest they pack them up and ship them to:
>>
>>
>> Tom, you are such a gentleman. However I can't let you risk personal
>> injury so to protect you they should be shipped to me. I will be
>> willing to pay shipping to protect others.
>>
>> Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired
>
> Dan, You and Tom are obviously concerned for the good of others, and
> I commend you. However, I'd be willing to come pick them up tomorrow
> just to make sure that no one gets hurt in the meantime. Those machines
> are just like a loaded gun laying around waiting for one of the kids to
> pick it up. Think of the liability ;-)
>
> Don W.
>

Don, your heart is in the right place, but we can't have you
driving down the road with such hazardous cargo. It's not worth the risk
to you and innocent drivers.

I feel the best thing is for me to pay to have them shipped to me.
This way we can be sure the transportation is done legally and safely at
every step. In the military I was trained to handle dangerous situations
so I feel my solution in best.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

[Highflyer]

"Roger" > wrote in message
...
> On 19 Feb 2006 13:00:19 -0800, wrote:
>SNIP>
> But as to safety, I've had a half inch drill bit pull a piece a 1/4
> inch Aluminum out of the clamps and try to beat the column to death,
> but I've never seen anything throw a piece like an innocent looking
> surface grinder. I saw one smash a hole in concrete block wall.
>

I have a rolling workbench in my hangar that I made. I built it out of
leftover oak cabinet parts when I was building my wife's kitchen cabinets.
I had it all finished and I was trimming 1/16 of an inch off of one side of
the cabinet doors so they would fit properly on my 3HP cabinet saw. I
accidentally jiggled the door in the saw as I was making this minor trimming
cut. I went ahead and put that door on the workbench anyway so that I would
be reminded every time I looked at it what that saw can do if you get just a
smidgin careless or complacent. :-)

I also remember a time when I was a young man working as a structural
ironworker. It is not unusual for the holes you need to connect the
structural iron in a building to not properly line up. Every once in a
while you get a guy who puts a wrong dimension on a drawing, or who measures
wrong, or whatever. When that happens with structural iron, you don't
usually discover it until you are fifty feet in the air hanging on by
toenails trying to get a bolt into this darn thing so it will stay together
long enough to unhook the crane and get the next piece. Solution? Sure.
We kept a cutting torch on the job with REAL long hoses so we could reach
the bad spot and burn a properly located hole to get the job done. One day
I was hanging out there with the torch trying to get it into position to
burn a hole so we could get a bolt in to hold the steel in place. I could
almost reach the spot. I get the hose a little jerk to get the slack out of
it and cut the hole. Unfortunately, I already had all of the slack out of
it. When I jerked, the full oxygen tank fell over against a concrete wall.
Real unfortunately when it hit the wall it busted my gauges off of the tank.
That tank took off like a toy balloon when you blow it up and let it go! It
took off with such vigor that it went right through a 12 inch concrete block
wall. Made a believer out of me. Don't jerk those hoses now. :-)

Highflyer
Highflight Aviation Services
Pinckneyville Airport ( PJY )

[Montblack]

("Highflyer" wrote)
[snip]
> I have a rolling workbench in my hangar that I made. I built it out of
> leftover oak cabinet parts when I was building my wife's kitchen cabinets.
> I had it all finished and I was trimming 1/16 of an inch off of one side
> of the cabinet doors so they would fit properly on my 3HP cabinet saw.


I built a rolling workbench from cabinet inserts they removed, to install
dishwashers, in our old apartment. Two sections, a 2-ft space, and then a
third cabinet section = 8-ft long rolling workbench!

I cut a 3/4 inch piece of plywood for the top and put 8 (nice) casters on
the bottom - 4 on each side of the middle space.

Each of the three sections has one pull-out drawer and two doors on the
bottom. Cheap(free) ...except plywood and casters.

I was so proud of myself ...UNTIL ...I needed to clamp/QuickGrip my first
piece of work down.

Um, I failed to factor in a lip - on either end, or in the front. There was
a clamping spot available in the middle space, but that was it. Doh!


Montblack
Live and learn!

[Rich S.]

"Highflyer" > wrote in message
...
>
> Real unfortunately when it hit the wall it busted my gauges off of the
> tank. That tank took off like a toy balloon when you blow it up and let it
> go! It took off with such vigor that it went right through a 12 inch
> concrete block wall. Made a believer out of me. Don't jerk those hoses
> now. :-)

A couple of years ago I was wandering through the goodies at a garage sale
when I spotted an 80 ft³ Oxygen tank and an Acetylene tank ~40" tall & 10"
diameter. They had regulators attached, but it looked as if the gauges were
broken off. I bought them for $5 each and hauled them home. (Turns out they
were both chock-a-block full of gas, too!)

It turns out the regulators are specially designed for rough-duty use.
Instead of gauges, they have pressure indicators where a visible rod slides
in a groove and shows approximate tank pressure. There are no secondary "set
pressure" indicators.

That's the same garage sale where I bought a fixed-pitch McCauley (sp?) prop
appropriate for an RV for $75. Later sold it as a wall-hanger for $375.

Rich S.

[Ernest Christley]

stol wrote:
Of course ya all know what
> happened next <G>. The whole class laughed till we all ****ed in our
> pants. Those were the good ol days................
>

So, the 'good ol days' is now defined as a classroom of kids standing
around laughing in wet pants and smelling like ****? Billy Joel was right.

The good ol days weren't all that great,
and tomorrow isn't as bad as it seems.

--
This is by far the hardest lesson about freedom. It goes against
instinct, and morality, to just sit back and watch people make
mistakes. We want to help them, which means control them and their
decisions, but in doing so we actually hurt them (and ourselves)."

[stol]

Ernest wrote""""""""""""""'

So, the 'good ol days' is now defined as a classroom of kids standing
around laughing in wet pants and smelling like ****? Billy Joel was
right.

The good ol days weren't all that great,
and tomorrow isn't as bad as it seems.


--
////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

Ben is writing""""""""""""""'

Back is those days one could have a "moment"where no one was hurt and
laughter would break out.

Nowadays,
The drill press has multiple safety devised attached so that one
cannot get within 5 feet to even operate it. The stupid idiot that gets
far enough along to injure him/herself will undoubtably have a freight
train of lawyers lined up to sue everything is sight, including but not
limited to........ The contractor that built the school, the family
that sold the land to build the school, the school board that
hired the teacher, the drill press maker, the power company that
supplied the electricity to run the drill press, the people who
laughed at the stupid fool because it made the fool feel inferior,
dumb, weak, and of course it defamed his character and he now has daily
nightmares that prevent him from sleeping, or holding down a job which
would let him get his hair stuck in another piece of machinery . ETC
................... By now you should be getting my drift Ernest.

By the way, Hasn't ol Billy Joel gone bankrupt once of twice because he
was sooooooo stupid to manage his life properly???? He is probably
not the best person to listen to.................

Have a nice day... Opps, thats a Bon Jovi thing
isn't it ??? <G>



Ben.