Red Pheonix- A Couple Of Reality Checks

[TV]

Sorry for being quasi-on-topic (seems to be rare now!), but I just finished
reading Larry Bond's Red Pheonix (it wasn't very good- FAR too many
unbelievable coincidences!!). Besides stretching the plot, I believe he
stretches the plausibility of some of the action. So I thought I'd check
with some of the folks here who've been there, done that.

The A-A moments were generally readable, but the first action described is a
nighttime dogfight between F-16s and Mig-21/29s (including guns kills!).
Has there ever been a documented case of a nighttime dogfight? Would
something like that be possible in a -teen series jet? I'm not talking
about an intercept, but a messy, multiplane furball. Seems to me it'd be a
great way to get lots of collisions and blue-on-blue kills.

One other moment of great implausibility (maybe it happened twice?!) was
when an F-16 finishing a bombing run saw a SAM site, and then turned towards
it and hosed it with his cannon. OK, that's weak, but for those (Ed and
others) who've done Iron Hand/SEAD missions, how often were cannons used
agaisnt SAM sites? I would imagine pretty rarely as they would be
accompanied by AAA. I think it's been said (by Ed if not others), that
dueling ground guns with aerial cannons isn't the best idea in the world.

Thanks for any answers.

[John Carrier]

"TV" > wrote in message
...
> Sorry for being quasi-on-topic (seems to be rare now!), but I just
> finished reading Larry Bond's Red Pheonix (it wasn't very good- FAR too
> many unbelievable coincidences!!). Besides stretching the plot, I believe
> he stretches the plausibility of some of the action. So I thought I'd
> check with some of the folks here who've been there, done that.
>
> The A-A moments were generally readable, but the first action described is
> a nighttime dogfight between F-16s and Mig-21/29s (including guns kills!).
> Has there ever been a documented case of a nighttime dogfight? Would
> something like that be possible in a -teen series jet? I'm not talking
> about an intercept, but a messy, multiplane furball. Seems to me it'd be
> a great way to get lots of collisions and blue-on-blue kills.

Goggles would certainly make a night engagement possible, but I'm not sure
how functional they are with significant G on the body ... I'll have to ask
my Bug-drivin' buddies how usable they are in the maneuvering environment.
I do know that simple stuff, tactical formation flying etc, is no sweat.

I've done some night ACM, simple one vs one stuff. Rules were lights on and
A/B engaged so you could see the other guy and have some idea about target
aspect. Of course, if they were really shooting at me, I'd be reluctant to
have anything illuminated that would help the bogies locate me. And a
multiplane engagement would certainly make blue-on-blue avoidance difficult.

> One other moment of great implausibility (maybe it happened twice?!) was
> when an F-16 finishing a bombing run saw a SAM site, and then turned
> towards it and hosed it with his cannon. OK, that's weak, but for those
> (Ed and others) who've done Iron Hand/SEAD missions, how often were
> cannons used agaisnt SAM sites? I would imagine pretty rarely as they
> would be accompanied by AAA. I think it's been said (by Ed if not
> others), that dueling ground guns with aerial cannons isn't the best idea
> in the world.

I think you're correct. While the gun can do some nice damage (and the
Vulcan with a good sight is a death ray), the range is too close and the
flight path too predictable. An excellent way to trade a multi-million
dollar airplane and one's life for a target valued in pocket change.

R / John

[WaltBJ]

Experimented with 'night' acm in the F4 sim with a sim instructor WSO
running the 'MiG' built into the system's bag of tricks. Used violent
3D maneuvering to pick up te target on radar and 'kill' it with
missiles. Running a plot in my head enabled me to maneuver around after
the 'MiG'. As for strafing SAM sites, been there, done that. M61 does
good work against SA2 radar vans.
Walt BJ

[TV]

> I've done some night ACM, simple one vs one stuff. Rules were lights on
> and A/B engaged so you could see the other guy and have some idea about
> target aspect. Of course, if they were really shooting at me, I'd be
> reluctant to

Thanks for the answers John. Just to keep things straight for me, you're a
former Turkey pilot right? I always get you and John Weiss confused (I
believe he was an A-4/6 pilot).

[TV]

> Experimented with 'night' acm in the F4 sim with a sim instructor WSO
> running the 'MiG' built into the system's bag of tricks. Used violent
> 3D maneuvering to pick up te target on radar and 'kill' it with
> missiles. Running a plot in my head enabled me to maneuver around after
> the 'MiG'. As for strafing SAM sites, been there, done that. M61 does
> good work against SA2 radar vans.
> Walt BJ

Was it a 1 v. 1 Walt? I suspect that with radar, a simluated 1 v. 1 is
possible at night (and intercepts at night should be relatively easy with
radar). But what about 2 v. 2 and up?

As for strafing, were you running a Weasel mission (in an F4?)? Were there
flak traps around the SA2 site? Would you consider doing it against a more
modern, more agile missile system (2nd or 3rd generation)? I seem to
vaguely recall the Israeli's trying that in '72 and getting spanked by the
SA-6 and associated -7 systems.

Thanks for the answers.

[WaltBJ]

We weren't Weasels. We just had our Gunsmoke Fast Fac pick one of three
sites for us on his first pass up in MR1. (1972) Then as he went to the
tanker we'd take off. We'd call him once on our way up out at sea down
about 100 feet MSL and he'd tell us which site he was going to mark. We
worked the time using jargon code so we were popping as he rolled into
mark the van with a pair of Rx. First time we tried this we took 8 F4s.
That was overkill; after that we used 4 birds at a time. The radar van
was our target and we got 5 of them. Our load was 12 Mk82 and 2 CBU52.
We were in and out real fast because the sites were all interlocking.
That's were I found out an F4 KIAS can go 745 at 4000 AGL with Mers,
Ters, 2xAIM7 2xAIM9 and a CL bag. BTW only one bird ever took a hit and
they got home okay.
Walt BJ

[John Carrier]

"TV" > wrote in message
...
>> I've done some night ACM, simple one vs one stuff. Rules were lights on
>> and A/B engaged so you could see the other guy and have some idea about
>> target aspect. Of course, if they were really shooting at me, I'd be
>> reluctant to
>
> Thanks for the answers John. Just to keep things straight for me, you're
> a former Turkey pilot right? I always get you and John Weiss confused (I
> believe he was an A-4/6 pilot).

F-8's, the F-4's. Finished in F-14's. Got about 150-200 hours in A-6's too
and a bit under a thou in A-4's (neat adversary jet).

R / John

[Colic]

"TV" > wrote in message
...
> > snip < <
> One other moment of great implausibility (maybe it happened twice?!) was
> when an F-16 finishing a bombing run saw a SAM site, and then turned
> towards it and hosed it with his cannon. OK, that's weak, but for those
> (Ed and others) who've done Iron Hand/SEAD missions, how often were
> cannons used agaisnt SAM sites? I would imagine pretty rarely as they
> would be accompanied by AAA. I think it's been said (by Ed if not
> others), that dueling ground guns with aerial cannons isn't the best idea
> in the world.

All SAM systems hav a min engagement range, inside that range they
can not engage a target. In general, the longer range the SAM system
in question is the farther out the min engage range is. A gun is pretty
short range, and I would bet in many cases with larger / longer range
SAMs (say the SA2/3/6), if you are close enough to hit it with the
gun you are pretty safe from the missile itself.

Of course, you have to penetrate the operational envelope before you
get that close to the site.

C!

[John Carrier]

Asked a just-back-from-the-fleet Bug driver about the effectiveness of
goggles for night ACM. Bottom line effectiveness: "Not very" to "Not at
all." Obviously nobody trains for night ACM/BFM.

R / John