Sport Pilot and Glider Questions

[Ralph Steiner]

I hope to get both the Sport Pilot and Private Glider certificates.

Which order would be best to get them in - would Sport Pilot be better to
get first or last?

I am especially interested in a motorglider called the Virus (what an
unfortunate choice of name!). Does a glider certificate let you fly a
motor glider?

http://www.mcp.com.au/pipistrel-usa/models/virus.html

[COLIN LAMB]

A glider license can be earned using one of three launches: a ground launch,
aero launch or self launch. Once you get the license, you must get get
logbook endorsements for either of the others.

I am not sure there is an advantage to obtaining either the sport license or
the glider license first. Do whatever is most convenient. Both are fun and
require and hone different skills. Soaring is best in the summer,
generally, while flying power planes works well when there is no thermals.
So, I suppose I would fly with an engine in the winter and fly gliders in
the summer.

Hard to go wrong with either one.

Colin

[BTIZ]

If I recall correctly.. there is no Glider Rating at the Sport Pilot level.
If you complete a Sport Pilot Rating in "airplane", then you still need to
complete a Glider Rating at the Private Pilot Level. Complete with Glider
Private Pilot written exam and check ride.

Of issue is that the Sport Pilot rating does not address certain
physiological factors of high altitude flight or long distance cross county
flying, which the Private Pilot rating does.

With the Private Pilot Glider rating you would only need a log book
endorsement for "self launch".

As this aircraft called a "Virus" seems to be a motor glider, then a Glider
Rating with Self Launch endorsement is all that is needed to fly it.

so why the Sport Pilot rating? unless you have other aspirations.

But then again, I could not be remembering correctly...

BT

"Ralph Steiner" > wrote in message
...
>I hope to get both the Sport Pilot and Private Glider certificates.
>
> Which order would be best to get them in - would Sport Pilot be better to
> get first or last?
>
> I am especially interested in a motorglider called the Virus (what an
> unfortunate choice of name!). Does a glider certificate let you fly a
> motor glider?
>
> http://www.mcp.com.au/pipistrel-usa/models/virus.html
>
>

[Ralph Steiner]

Yes, I wish to have both the sport pilot and glider certificates.

It seems that for a glider I need less training if I already have a pilot
certificate. Some training for pilot also applied to glider. But that text
has not changed since before the sport pilot regulations were released.
This caused the question of if that situation also applied to sport pilot
training.

RS

"BTIZ" > wrote in message
news:ICBKf.40$Uc2.37@fed1read04...
> If I recall correctly.. there is no Glider Rating at the Sport Pilot
> level.
> If you complete a Sport Pilot Rating in "airplane", then you still need to
> complete a Glider Rating at the Private Pilot Level. Complete with Glider
> Private Pilot written exam and check ride.
>
> Of issue is that the Sport Pilot rating does not address certain
> physiological factors of high altitude flight or long distance cross
> county flying, which the Private Pilot rating does.
>
> With the Private Pilot Glider rating you would only need a log book
> endorsement for "self launch".
>
> As this aircraft called a "Virus" seems to be a motor glider, then a
> Glider Rating with Self Launch endorsement is all that is needed to fly
> it.
>
> so why the Sport Pilot rating? unless you have other aspirations.
>
> But then again, I could not be remembering correctly...

[toad]

BTIZ wrote:
> If I recall correctly.. there is no Glider Rating at the Sport Pilot level.

There are no 'ratings' exactly for the sport pilot certificate, but the
equivilant is a instructor sign off for the glider category. Check FAR
61.301 - 61.329.

Off course that would give you the privilege to fly a light sport
glider, which are pretty rare so far.

Todd
3S

[Wayne Paul]

"BTIZ" > wrote in message
news:ICBKf.40$Uc2.37@fed1read04...
> If I recall correctly.. there is no Glider Rating at the Sport Pilot
level.
> If you complete a Sport Pilot Rating in "airplane", then you still need to
> complete a Glider Rating at the Private Pilot Level. Complete with Glider
> Private Pilot written exam and check ride.

Yes you can get a Sport Pilot - Glider; however, the standards are so close
to the Private Pilot - Glider that I hardly see why it would be worth while.

I seem to remember that the basic requirements are something like the
following:
1 . Must be 16 years old
2. Total of 20 hours in a heavier-then-air aircraft with: 10 hours of flight
time in a glider, including 10 flights in a glider receiving flight training
from an authorized Instructor and at least 2 hours of solo flight.
3. Five solo launches and landings, and 3 hours of flight training on those
areas of operation specified in §61.311.
4. Have passed the written examination; and
5. Have passed the flight exam with an Examiner

http://www.aopa.org/sportpilot/pts_sport_airplane.pdf Chapter 3 covers the
practical test standards for Sport Pilot glider privileges.

Flying sailplanes as a Sport Pilot would limit you to flights less than
10,000 feet MSL (major problem where I fly) and a sailplane that has a Vne
of less than 120 kts.

I really don't know where the Virus falls. It meets the Sport Aircraft -
airplane; however, I am sure that its' Vne is over 120 kts; therefore, fails
to meet the Sport Aircraft - glider requirements.

I believe the Private Pilot - Glider (self-launch) is the best route to
flying a Virus.

The bottom like is that you must have a pilot certificate that matches the
aircraft's airworthiness certificate. If the FAA calls it a glider, it is a
glider. Otherwise it is a single engine airplane. (If you review the FAA
records you will see some WindRose homebuilts registered as gliders and some
registered as single-engine airplanes.)

Wayne
HP-14 N990 "6F"
http://www.soaridaho.com/

[COLIN LAMB]

"Flying sailplanes as a Sport Pilot would limit you to flights less than
10,000 feet MSL (major problem where I fly) and a sailplane that has a Vne
of less than 120 kts."

Not quite true. There is an exception to flying over 10,000 feet. I recall
it is a maximum clearance. Also, the maximum speed is based upon level
flight operation and is not Vne. It is Vh.

Colin

[BTIZ]

With the sport pilot certificate first, you would qualify under the FARs and
having more than 40hrs in an aircraft before moving on to the glider rating,
that would qualify you as requiring less training hours or flights logged to
achieve the private glider rating.

Because the sport pilot does not cover some material that a private pilot
does, it cannot be done as an "add on" rating, you would still need to take
the glider private written test prior to the check ride.

As a CFIG, I can assure you that you would be trained in all areas required
for your glider check ride, but because you already hold a Sport pilot
rating it would take less time on basic aerodynamics, flight control,
traffic patterns and airspace study etc.

BT

"Ralph Steiner" > wrote in message
...
> Yes, I wish to have both the sport pilot and glider certificates.
>
> It seems that for a glider I need less training if I already have a pilot
> certificate. Some training for pilot also applied to glider. But that
> text has not changed since before the sport pilot regulations were
> released. This caused the question of if that situation also applied to
> sport pilot training.
>
> RS
>
> "BTIZ" > wrote in message
> news:ICBKf.40$Uc2.37@fed1read04...
>> If I recall correctly.. there is no Glider Rating at the Sport Pilot
>> level.
>> If you complete a Sport Pilot Rating in "airplane", then you still need
>> to complete a Glider Rating at the Private Pilot Level. Complete with
>> Glider Private Pilot written exam and check ride.
>>
>> Of issue is that the Sport Pilot rating does not address certain
>> physiological factors of high altitude flight or long distance cross
>> county flying, which the Private Pilot rating does.
>>
>> With the Private Pilot Glider rating you would only need a log book
>> endorsement for "self launch".
>>
>> As this aircraft called a "Virus" seems to be a motor glider, then a
>> Glider Rating with Self Launch endorsement is all that is needed to fly
>> it.
>>
>> so why the Sport Pilot rating? unless you have other aspirations.
>>
>> But then again, I could not be remembering correctly...
>
>

[Wayne Paul]

"COLIN LAMB" > wrote in message
ink.net...
> Not quite true. There is an exception to flying over 10,000 feet. I
recall
> it is a maximum clearance. Also, the maximum speed is based upon level
> flight operation and is not Vne. It is Vh.
>
>
Colin.

Here are a couple quotes:

Source: http://www.sportpilot.org/nprm/sectional_analysis.html

An unpowered light-sport aircraft (e.g. glider) would have a maximum
never-exceed speed (VNE) of 115 knots, as VH is not applicable. This speed
limitation also limits the commanded kinetic energy of an aircraft flown by
a pilot holding a sport pilot certificate. For a VNE equal to 80% of the
aircraft's structural design limit speed, a 115-knot VNE limit for aircraft
would mean that structural design limits would preclude gliders with a speed
capability in excess of 144 knots from being approved as light-sport
aircraft (144 X .80=115).A light-sport aircraft would have a maximum stall
speed in the landing configuration (VS0) of 39 knots. This value for a
maximum stall speed is a characteristic of low-performance aircraft and
would assist in ensuring that light-sport aircraft possess handling
characteristics commensurate with the training and experience of sport
pilots. It is also consistent with foreign airworthiness standards for
similar performance aircraft.

Source: http://www.sportpilot.org/becoming/

Restrictions on a sport pilot certificate: ....... no flights above
10,000' MSL ......

Am I missing something here?

Respectfully,

Wayne

[BTIZ]

thanx guys.. I knew there was a 10,000MSL limit but did not know there may
be a waiver for unpowered sport aircraft, I knew the Vne was so low as to
exclude 90% of currently available gliders.

Time for me to do some more reading.

BT

"T o d d P a t t i s t" > wrote in message
...
> "Wayne Paul" > wrote:
>
>>Yes you can get a Sport Pilot - Glider; however, the standards are so
>>close
>>to the Private Pilot - Glider that I hardly see why it would be worth
>>while.
>
> I agree - it's probably better to get the Private Pilot
> glider than the Sport Pilot glider. For gliders, the
> limitations on a SP are greater and the extra effort needed
> for the PP is less. Once you have the PPG, you
> automatically qualify for the SPG. You can then add the
> SP-Airplane with simple instructor signoffs - something you
> may find worthwhile.
> --
> T o d d P a t t i s t - "WH" Ventus C
> (Remove DONTSPAMME from address to email reply.)

[5Z]

Ralph,
Since your aspiration is toward a "touring motorglider", I'd suggest
you go for a glider rating, but try to get it in a motorglider. There
are a few FBO's that have these, one I can think of is Sky King Soaring
http://www.skykingsoaring.com/ in Sedona, AZ.

The sport airplane "add on" will then be pretty much a "no brainer" as
you will have all the requisite stick time and IMO better airmanship
skills.

-Tom

[toad]

I think that the bad news regarding the aircraft is that the
manufacturer needs to have the aircraft certified as light sport. Even
if an aircraft meets all the specs, the paperwork has to be files and
accepted.

The sign off process for adding a category to your sport pilots
privilege is here:
FAR 61.321
http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=ecfr&sid=9ee95f7d4e8d1cf67d65e0b526fa2fed&rgn=div8&view=text&node=14:2.0.1.1.2.10.1.11&idno=14

You need 2 sign offs, each from a different instructor.

[Ralph Steiner]

Thanks for the link to Sky King Soaring. While they are on the other side
of the US from me, a vacation in AZ might be worth considering. Also they
speak of the Diamond motorglider and I did not know of any touring
motorglider other than the Virus.

RS

"5Z" > wrote in message
ps.com...
> Ralph,
> Since your aspiration is toward a "touring motorglider", I'd suggest
> you go for a glider rating, but try to get it in a motorglider. There
> are a few FBO's that have these, one I can think of is Sky King Soaring
> http://www.skykingsoaring.com/ in Sedona, AZ.
>
> The sport airplane "add on" will then be pretty much a "no brainer" as
> you will have all the requisite stick time and IMO better airmanship
> skills.
>
> -Tom

[Vaughn]

"Ralph Steiner" > wrote in message
...
> Also they speak of the Diamond motorglider and I did not know of any touring
> motorglider other than the Virus.

Then you probably need to do a bit more research before you make a buying
decision. You should also know about the Grob 109, SF-25 and SF28, Stemme S10,
L13 Vivat, Ximango, ASK-14, Carat, RF-4, RF-5, and a whole bunch I have
certainly missed.

Vaughn



>
> RS
>
> "5Z" > wrote in message
> ps.com...
>> Ralph,
>> Since your aspiration is toward a "touring motorglider", I'd suggest
>> you go for a glider rating, but try to get it in a motorglider. There
>> are a few FBO's that have these, one I can think of is Sky King Soaring
>> http://www.skykingsoaring.com/ in Sedona, AZ.
>>
>> The sport airplane "add on" will then be pretty much a "no brainer" as
>> you will have all the requisite stick time and IMO better airmanship
>> skills.
>>
>> -Tom
>
>

[BTIZ]

do you have a source for the exception for over 10,000ft MSL in gliders
under the LSA category?
BT

"COLIN LAMB" > wrote in message
ink.net...
> "Flying sailplanes as a Sport Pilot would limit you to flights less than
> 10,000 feet MSL (major problem where I fly) and a sailplane that has a Vne
> of less than 120 kts."
>
> Not quite true. There is an exception to flying over 10,000 feet. I
> recall it is a maximum clearance. Also, the maximum speed is based upon
> level flight operation and is not Vne. It is Vh.
>
> Colin
>

[Ralph Steiner]

Thanks for the list. I knew of motorgliders that don't need a tow and of
ones which may not be able to take off but which have enough power to stay
aloft but I'd not known of touring ones until I stumbled onto a web page
about the Virus and Sinus.

RS

Vaughn wrote in message
...
>
> "Ralph Steiner" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Also they speak of the Diamond motorglider and I did not know of any
>> touring motorglider other than the Virus.
>
> Then you probably need to do a bit more research before you make a
> buying decision. You should also know about the Grob 109, SF-25 and SF28,
> Stemme S10, L13 Vivat, Ximango, ASK-14, Carat, RF-4, RF-5, and a whole
> bunch I have certainly missed.
>
> Vaughn

[Tony Verhulst]

> Thank Todd, I did not think there were maybe one or two current gliders that
> could qualify based on Vne limitations.

Because of the 120 knot Vne limit, my advice to our club members is to
go for the private pilot instead of the sport pilot certificate. Sport
pilots would only be allowed to fly our 2-33s and 1-26s - no L23s, L13s,
L-33s, B4s, or 1-34s.
http://home.comcast.net/~verhulst/GBSC/student/sportpilot.htm

Tony V.

[GeorgeB]

On Wed, 22 Feb 2006 02:43:15 GMT, "Ralph Steiner" wrote:

>Thanks for the list. I knew of motorgliders that don't need a tow and of
>ones which may not be able to take off but which have enough power to stay
>aloft but I'd not known of touring ones until I stumbled onto a web page
>about the Virus and Sinus.

Look at Eric Greenwell's excellent page,
http://webpages.charter.net/engreenwell/ASA/

>>> Also they speak of the Diamond motorglider and I did not know of any
>>> touring motorglider other than the Virus.
>>
>> Then you probably need to do a bit more research before you make a
>> buying decision. You should also know about the Grob 109, SF-25 and SF28,
>> Stemme S10, L13 Vivat, Ximango, ASK-14, Carat, RF-4, RF-5, and a whole
>> bunch I have certainly missed.