Class E or Class G - another one of those that makes you go 'hmmmmm'

[JT]

We all know (or should) that when a Class D airport tower closes, the
airspace reverts to Class E or Class G and is specified in the A/FD.
Question is what determines which airspace it reverts to???

CFI Test Prep question 6930 answer states, "When that tower ceases to
operate, it reverts to Class E Airspace. Without weather reporting
capability, Class E airspace reverts to Class G airspace. (AIM 3-2-5)".

AIM 3 - 2 - 5 states "At those airports where the control tower does not
operate
24 hours a day, the operating hours of the tower will be listed on the
appropriate charts and in the A/FD. During the hours the tower is not in
operation, the Class E surface area rules or a combination of Class E rules
to 700 feet above ground level and Class G rules to the surface will become
applicable. Check the A/FD for specifics."

The AIM doesn't help here but the test prep implies that without weather
reported capability, the airport reverts to the less restrictive Class G.
So, we look at our favorite sectional (in this case, Seattle), and we see
that, in most cases, part-time towered Class D airports under the Class B
veil go to Class G while those outside go to Class E (weather reporting
capability doesn't seem to be a factor). Then when you look at Pasco (KPSC),
we see it is not under the Class B airspace but reverts to Class G AND has
weather reporting (ATIS and ASOS).

So, can anyone enlighten me as to the rule behind this? Does it have to do
with sunspots and the phase of the moon?

[[email protected]]

<<So, can anyone enlighten me as to the rule behind this? Does it have
to do with sunspots and the phase of the moon? >>

I believe that ground communications with ATC is a requirement as well.

[Bob Gardner]

Not all weather observations come from the tower...the controllers can go
home and leave someone from the NWS still beavering away.

Bob Gardner

"JT" > wrote in message
...
> We all know (or should) that when a Class D airport tower closes, the
> airspace reverts to Class E or Class G and is specified in the A/FD.
> Question is what determines which airspace it reverts to???
>
> CFI Test Prep question 6930 answer states, "When that tower ceases to
> operate, it reverts to Class E Airspace. Without weather reporting
> capability, Class E airspace reverts to Class G airspace. (AIM 3-2-5)".
>
> AIM 3 - 2 - 5 states "At those airports where the control tower does not
> operate
> 24 hours a day, the operating hours of the tower will be listed on the
> appropriate charts and in the A/FD. During the hours the tower is not in
> operation, the Class E surface area rules or a combination of Class E
> rules to 700 feet above ground level and Class G rules to the surface will
> become applicable. Check the A/FD for specifics."
>
> The AIM doesn't help here but the test prep implies that without weather
> reported capability, the airport reverts to the less restrictive Class G.
> So, we look at our favorite sectional (in this case, Seattle), and we see
> that, in most cases, part-time towered Class D airports under the Class B
> veil go to Class G while those outside go to Class E (weather reporting
> capability doesn't seem to be a factor). Then when you look at Pasco
> (KPSC), we see it is not under the Class B airspace but reverts to Class G
> AND has weather reporting (ATIS and ASOS).
>
> So, can anyone enlighten me as to the rule behind this? Does it have to do
> with sunspots and the phase of the moon?
>
>

[Roy Smith]

"Bob Gardner" > wrote:
> Not all weather observations come from the tower...the controllers can go
> home and leave someone from the NWS still beavering away.

Does it have to be an NWS employee? I was under the impression that almost
anybody can be an official weather observer, as long as they complete the
appropriate certification training.

[Newps]

Bob Gardner wrote:
> Not all weather observations come from the tower...the controllers can go
> home and leave someone from the NWS still beavering away.

And most towers never take observations. I never have. Occasionally we
will put in a tower visibility in the computer but that's it.

[Newps]

Roy Smith wrote:

> "Bob Gardner" > wrote:
>
>>Not all weather observations come from the tower...the controllers can go
>>home and leave someone from the NWS still beavering away.
>
>
> Does it have to be an NWS employee? I was under the impression that almost
> anybody can be an official weather observer, as long as they complete the
> appropriate certification training.

It can be anybody that's certified.

[Bob Gardner]

My point, which I made pretty badly, was that the E vs G determination does
not depend on tower controllers insofar as weather obs are concerned. I got
the impression from the OP that he thought that if the tower was closed
there was no weather observer. Been wrong before.

Bob Gardner

"Roy Smith" > wrote in message
...
> "Bob Gardner" > wrote:
>> Not all weather observations come from the tower...the controllers can go
>> home and leave someone from the NWS still beavering away.
>
> Does it have to be an NWS employee? I was under the impression that
> almost
> anybody can be an official weather observer, as long as they complete the
> appropriate certification training.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"JT" > wrote in message
...
>
> We all know (or should) that when a Class D airport tower closes, the
> airspace reverts to Class E or Class G and is specified in the A/FD.
> Question is what determines which airspace it reverts to???
>
> CFI Test Prep question 6930 answer states, "When that tower ceases to
> operate, it reverts to Class E Airspace. Without weather reporting
> capability, Class E airspace reverts to Class G airspace. (AIM 3-2-5)".
>
> AIM 3 - 2 - 5 states "At those airports where the control tower does not
> operate
> 24 hours a day, the operating hours of the tower will be listed on the
> appropriate charts and in the A/FD. During the hours the tower is not in
> operation, the Class E surface area rules or a combination of Class E
> rules to 700 feet above ground level and Class G rules to the surface will
> become applicable. Check the A/FD for specifics."
>
> The AIM doesn't help here but the test prep implies that without weather
> reported capability, the airport reverts to the less restrictive Class G.
> So, we look at our favorite sectional (in this case, Seattle), and we see
> that, in most cases, part-time towered Class D airports under the Class B
> veil go to Class G while those outside go to Class E (weather reporting
> capability doesn't seem to be a factor). Then when you look at Pasco
> (KPSC), we see it is not under the Class B airspace but reverts to Class G
> AND has weather reporting (ATIS and ASOS).
>
> So, can anyone enlighten me as to the rule behind this? Does it have to do
> with sunspots and the phase of the moon?
>

A surface area requires:

1.) Communications. Communications capability with aircraft which normally
operate within the surface area must exist down to the runway surface of the
primary airport. This communications may be either direct from the ATC
facility having jurisdiction over the surface area or by rapid relay through
other communications facilities which are acceptable to that ATC facility.

2.) Weather Observations. Weather observations shall be taken at the
surface area's primary airport during the times the surface area is
designated. The weather observation can be taken by a Federally
certificated weather observer and/or by a Federally commissioned weather
observing system.

If the tower is responsible for taking weather observations, then when the
tower closes the airspace must become Class G. If the tower serves as the
rapid communications relay for the ATC facility having jurisdiction over the
surface area, then the airspace must again become Class G when the tower
closes, even if weather observations are still taken by another entity, such
as an AWOS or ASOS.

If communications still exist and weather observations are still taken after
the tower closes, then the airspace can become Class E or Class G. It will
become Class E if necessary to accommodate instrument procedures if such
action is justified and/or in the public interest. The following factors
are among those that are considered:

1. Type of procedure including decision height or minimum descent
altitude.

2. The actual use to be made of the procedure, including whether it is
used by a certificated air carrier or an air taxi/commuter operator
providing service to the general public.

3. The operational and economic advantage offered by the procedure,
including the importance and interest to the commerce and welfare of the
community derived by the procedure.

4. Any other factors considered appropriate.

[avcompserv]

In order for there to be a class E surface area at an airport, there
must a published instrument aproach procedure in addition to weather
observations and ATC communications.

The entire purpose of a Class E surface area is to protect an aircraft
descending out of the clouds on an instrument approach. The higher VFR
weather minimums within a Class E surface area give the pilot on
approach a better chance to see and avoid traffic after going visual.
You will never be cleared for Special VFR while an aircraft is on an
instrument approach for the same reason. Class E surface areas are
designed to keep one from breaking out at 400 AGL and being nose to
nose with a crop duster.

Keeping the reason for Class E surface areas in mind aids in
understanding thier requirements and unsual shapes.

[Chris G.]

Steven,

Do you have some references to the info below so we can look it up and
use this opportunity to learn even more?

Thanks,

Chris


Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
> "JT" > wrote in message
> ...
>> We all know (or should) that when a Class D airport tower closes, the
>> airspace reverts to Class E or Class G and is specified in the A/FD.
>> Question is what determines which airspace it reverts to???
>>
>> CFI Test Prep question 6930 answer states, "When that tower ceases to
>> operate, it reverts to Class E Airspace. Without weather reporting
>> capability, Class E airspace reverts to Class G airspace. (AIM 3-2-5)".
>>
>> AIM 3 - 2 - 5 states "At those airports where the control tower does not
>> operate
>> 24 hours a day, the operating hours of the tower will be listed on the
>> appropriate charts and in the A/FD. During the hours the tower is not in
>> operation, the Class E surface area rules or a combination of Class E
>> rules to 700 feet above ground level and Class G rules to the surface will
>> become applicable. Check the A/FD for specifics."
>>
>> The AIM doesn't help here but the test prep implies that without weather
>> reported capability, the airport reverts to the less restrictive Class G.
>> So, we look at our favorite sectional (in this case, Seattle), and we see
>> that, in most cases, part-time towered Class D airports under the Class B
>> veil go to Class G while those outside go to Class E (weather reporting
>> capability doesn't seem to be a factor). Then when you look at Pasco
>> (KPSC), we see it is not under the Class B airspace but reverts to Class G
>> AND has weather reporting (ATIS and ASOS).
>>
>> So, can anyone enlighten me as to the rule behind this? Does it have to do
>> with sunspots and the phase of the moon?
>>
>
> A surface area requires:
>
> 1.) Communications. Communications capability with aircraft which normally
> operate within the surface area must exist down to the runway surface of the
> primary airport. This communications may be either direct from the ATC
> facility having jurisdiction over the surface area or by rapid relay through
> other communications facilities which are acceptable to that ATC facility.
>
> 2.) Weather Observations. Weather observations shall be taken at the
> surface area's primary airport during the times the surface area is
> designated. The weather observation can be taken by a Federally
> certificated weather observer and/or by a Federally commissioned weather
> observing system.
>
> If the tower is responsible for taking weather observations, then when the
> tower closes the airspace must become Class G. If the tower serves as the
> rapid communications relay for the ATC facility having jurisdiction over the
> surface area, then the airspace must again become Class G when the tower
> closes, even if weather observations are still taken by another entity, such
> as an AWOS or ASOS.
>
> If communications still exist and weather observations are still taken after
> the tower closes, then the airspace can become Class E or Class G. It will
> become Class E if necessary to accommodate instrument procedures if such
> action is justified and/or in the public interest. The following factors
> are among those that are considered:
>
> 1. Type of procedure including decision height or minimum descent
> altitude.
>
> 2. The actual use to be made of the procedure, including whether it is
> used by a certificated air carrier or an air taxi/commuter operator
> providing service to the general public.
>
> 3. The operational and economic advantage offered by the procedure,
> including the importance and interest to the commerce and welfare of the
> community derived by the procedure.
>
> 4. Any other factors considered appropriate.
>
>

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Chris G." > wrote in message
reenews.net...
>
> Do you have some references to the info below so we can look it up and
> use this opportunity to learn even more?
>

FAA Order 7400.2, Procedures for Handling Airspace Matters

http://www.faa.gov/atpubs/AIR/index.htm