Two 14 year old boys steal plane and then crash

[John Doe]

More great press for GA airport security.

//////////
Two 14-year-old boys from Big Bear are doing OK tonight. Police say they
suffered minor injuries after stealing an airplane from the Big Bear Airport
and crash-landing it in Joshua Tree National Park last night.

The boys' apparent joy-ride ended in the park about 10 miles north of the
Cottonwood station.

It all started here at the Big Bear Airport. A bit later, it ended in the
middle of the desert. Police say two 14-year-olds, stole the keys to one
boy's father's airplane and stole it from its hangar.

Police believe the two learned how to operate the Mooney M-20 by watching
the father fly it and apparently, they didn't learn very well.

"Another witness noticed the airplane depart in fairly erratic manner and
raised a question in my mind. This witness thought that was unusual. He came
over and reported this to police."

According to police, the boys' plans were to runaway and take themselves to
Mexico in the plane. But the plans took a wrong turn when the plane ran out
of gas. And they boys had to crash it right here in Joshua Tree in the
morning.

Two park workers found the boys on the side of the road. They say they were
surprised the two weren't seriously hurt.

These boys are really lucky. They could have caused extensive damage to the
plane and terrible injuries to themselves. While the plane did not suffer
significant damage - the crash did bang up its propeller and landing gear.
The two teens were taken to jail. It's not known yet if they'll be charged
with anything.

Many people are wondering tonight, how did this happen? How did two 14-year
old boys get access to the airplane?

We talked to one local expert who runs a flight school at Palm Springs
International Airport. He says there's no way the same thing could have
happened in Palm Springs. He also says that young pilots are not uncommon.

In California, you can get a license at 17-years-old. These teens were three
years younger than that and he says that's irresponsible and dangerous.

"People that come into aviation, if they are not responsible, they learn to
be responsible otherwise they'll never go thru the training and go thru the
FAA check right?"

Dutzi says the two boys are lucky to be alive after making the emergency
landing.

[Peter R.]

John Doe > wrote:

> Two 14-year-old boys from Big Bear are doing OK tonight. Police say they
> suffered minor injuries after stealing an airplane from the Big Bear Airport
> and crash-landing it in Joshua Tree National Park last night.
<snip>

Looks like Darwin was asleep last night, too.

--
Peter

[Larry Dighera]

On Tue, 28 Feb 2006 06:50:34 -0500, "John Doe" >
wrote in <gOWMf.43722$Dh.41109@dukeread04>::

>It all started here at the Big Bear Airport. A bit later, it ended in the
>middle of the desert. Police say two 14-year-olds, stole the keys to one
>boy's father's airplane and stole it from its hangar.

Given the storm at the time, the likelihood of clouds obscuring the
peaks, and a virtually moonless night, I'm amazed this flight ended so
well.

[Jay Honeck]

>>It all started here at the Big Bear Airport. A bit later, it ended in the
>>middle of the desert. Police say two 14-year-olds, stole the keys to one
>>boy's father's airplane and stole it from its hangar.
>
> Given the storm at the time, the likelihood of clouds obscuring the
> peaks, and a virtually moonless night, I'm amazed this flight ended so
> well.

Well, the boys obviously have some piloting skills. Too bad they'll be
felons now...

:-(
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Larry Dighera]

On Tue, 28 Feb 2006 14:41:54 GMT, "Jay Honeck"
> wrote in
<SiZMf.793828$x96.290580@attbi_s72>::

>Too bad they'll be felons now...

Because the aircraft belongs to one of the boy's fathers, it's not
clear that they will be charged.

[[email protected]]

Larry
You can bet the insurance company will not pay off for 'Wrongful
conversion" and Dad will be left with a hefty bill to get his Mooney
back to flyable. I was looking at the fact they got it back on the
ground without major? damage or injury.
I'd beat that kids ass to a healthy puffy dimension.........
Ol Shy & Bashful

[Flyin'[email protected]]

Ah... But in California if you as much as look at your kid wrong you go to
jail for abuse. I am afraid there is nothing he can do but give them a
time-out. ;-)

> I'd beat that kids ass to a healthy puffy dimension.........
> Ol Shy & Bashful

--
Mike Flyin'8
PP-ASEL
Temecula, CA
http://flying.4alexanders.com

[Peter R.]

> wrote:

> You can bet the insurance company will not pay off for 'Wrongful
> conversion" and Dad will be left with a hefty bill to get his Mooney
> back to flyable.

Why is that? The owner himself was not the operator at the time of the
accident.

The fact that the thief of the aircraft was his son does not negate the
fact that the aircraft was stolen and damaged. As an aircraft owner
myself, I have confidence that this aircraft will be covered by the owner's
insurance policy.

--
Peter

[JohnH]

wrote:
> Larry
> You can bet the insurance company will not pay off for 'Wrongful
> conversion" and Dad will be left with a hefty bill to get his Mooney
> back to flyable. I was looking at the fact they got it back on the
> ground without major? damage or injury.
> I'd beat that kids ass to a healthy puffy dimension.........
> Ol Shy & Bashful

What good is insurance if it doesn't cover stuff like this?

[Larry Dighera]

On 28 Feb 2006 07:40:11 -0800, wrote in
om>::

>Larry
>You can bet the insurance company will not pay off for 'Wrongful
>conversion"

I'm not familiar with that term; what's it mean?


>I was looking at the fact they got it back on the
>ground without major? damage or injury.

Given the weather up in the mountains yesterday, it's remarkable.
http://www.snowsummit.com/conditions.php
Current Report as of:
Tuesday, February 28, 2006 updated at 7:30 a.m.

SNOW SUMMIT AND BEAR MOUNTAIN WILL BE CLOSED TODAY DUE TO WEATHER.
Snow Summit and Bear Mountain will be closed today due to weather.
The resorts received significant rain showers over night and it is
still raining this morning.

Remember, Big Bear Airport is located in a mountain valley surrounded
by significantly higher terrain. http://www.airnav.com/airport/L35

>I'd beat that kids ass to a healthy puffy dimension.........

Do that in this state, and it is you who'd be the felon. :-(

[[email protected]]

MIke in Temecula
Well, I'd take him out to Dulzura and leave him there! That would be a
real wake up! Or, perhaps closer to you in De Luz....?
No matter, I'm still old school USMC and would beat his ass to a
healthy puffy dimension...
Semper Fi
Rocky

[[email protected]]

That is the problem with todays society! No one takes any
responsibility for their actions. Beat their ass to a pulp and they'd
think twice about doing the same thing again. If they do a variation on
the theme, you beat their ass with a different theme and with more
gusto!
It worked for me as a USMC DI and I dare anyone to challenge the
efficacy of USMC boot camp training and discipline. OoohRahhh
Semper Fi USMC 1940-63
Rocky

[Peter R.]

> wrote:

> No matter, I'm still old school USMC and would beat his ass to a
> healthy puffy dimension...

I suspect that under that style of parenting, this 14 year old would not
have even attempted the theft.

--
Peter
Grew up as a child of a former US Marine.

[Jay Honeck]

> >I'd beat that kids ass to a healthy puffy dimension.........
>
> Do that in this state, and it is you who'd be the felon. :-(

I have a 15 year old son who could, I'm almost certain, fly our plane
without difficulty.

If he EVER did something this stupid -- and lived -- I wouldn't beat
him. In fact, I'd be thanking my lucky stars that he had survived.
I'd hug him like my life depended upon his next breath.

THEN I'd beat him senseless...

;-)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Matt Barrow]

> wrote in message
oups.com...
> That is the problem with todays society! No one takes any
> responsibility for their actions. Beat their ass to a pulp and they'd
> think twice about doing the same thing again.

I guess if both father and son are thugs...yeah. If the parent can't think
more creatively than that, well then someone should beat him to a pulp for
fathering children while mentally impaired.

Like father, like son. Like son, like father.

[Flyin'[email protected]]

Oh, don't get me wrong... I am not saying I disagree with your philosophy
in the least. However, I have seen the oddest behaviors from "do-gooders"
in this useless state.

For instance...

While in a blockbuster video, a kid (about age 5) was being a major pain
and the parent swatted the kid on the rear while in the store. Another
person came up and "detained" them until the police showed up. True story
which I personally observed.

wrote:
> MIke in Temecula
> Well, I'd take him out to Dulzura and leave him there! That would be a
> real wake up! Or, perhaps closer to you in De Luz....?
> No matter, I'm still old school USMC and would beat his ass to a
> healthy puffy dimension...
> Semper Fi
> Rocky

--
Mike Flyin'8
PP-ASEL
Temecula, CA
http://flying.4alexanders.com

[Matt Barrow]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>> >I'd beat that kids ass to a healthy puffy dimension.........
>>
>> Do that in this state, and it is you who'd be the felon. :-(
>
> I have a 15 year old son who could, I'm almost certain, fly our plane
> without difficulty.
>
> If he EVER did something this stupid -- and lived -- I wouldn't beat
> him. In fact, I'd be thanking my lucky stars that he had survived.
> I'd hug him like my life depended upon his next breath.
>
> THEN I'd beat him senseless...

Try a little brainpower instead...ya know, it might just rub off. (:~{P>

>
> ;-)

My at-home son is 6'3", 215 and I'd need a cinderblock to beat him
senseless...if I could catch him.

[[email protected]]

Peter
Then perhaps you can understand my position? Why are the youth of today
so far out of touch with common decency in society and seem to have
lost any sembalance of moral compass?
Damnnnn...even my own son lost his way and I shake my head trying to
figure it out. Is it that society has allowed them to just drift along
without fear of retribution for their actions?
He is afraid to come to me and try his weak **** excuses because he
knows I don't buy into it or them. Breaks my heart on a daily
basis..... But then I have a daughter a year older who is solid gold
and also wonders why her brother is sour....?
I'd still beat his ass to a puffy state! Or, as they say in the middle
east, I'd "flog him".
Semper Fi
Rocky

[Matt Barrow]

> wrote in message
ps.com...
> Peter
> Then perhaps you can understand my position? Why are the youth of today
> so far out of touch with common decency in society and seem to have
> lost any sembalance of moral compass?

Maybe they learned it from their parents? Maybe their parents were the same.

Hey...how about that whole Social Security generation whining that the young
won't subsidize their retirements (while the young try to raise their own
family).


> Damnnnn...even my own son lost his way and I shake my head trying to
> figure it out. Is it that society has allowed them to just drift along
> without fear of retribution for their actions?
> He is afraid to come to me and try his weak **** excuses because he
> knows I don't buy into it or them. Breaks my heart on a daily
> basis..... But then I have a daughter a year older who is solid gold
> and also wonders why her brother is sour....?

I'll bet you raised the two very differently.

> I'd still beat his ass to a puffy state! Or, as they say in the middle
> east, I'd "flog him".
> Semper Fi

Little late for that...where were you _years_ ago? He didn't just pop into
that mode.

[[email protected]]

Well, there ya go. The "do-gooder" is setting themselves up for a civil
suit for wrongful arrest. Had it been me, I'm afraid I'd have gone to
jail for assault and battery on the jerk for interferring with my
parenting skills. Yeh I know, that sounds like a godawful attitude and
a real butthead. But, my kids still say "Yes Sir" and "No Ma'm",and
hold doors open for people, and show respect for people. How they act
privately is open for speculation but I think I'd still bet on my kids
being respectful of others and their property.
Are people afraid to demand some societal respect and behaviour? Well
somebody better get their act together or we're all gonna go down in
flames.
I'm an active flight instructor and to no surprise, my students still
address me as "Sir" without any demands to do so. I'd like to delude
myself into thinking its out of respect? The majority of them are young
officers in the Navy or Marine Corps.

[Jim Logajan]

wrote:
> Why are the youth of today
> so far out of touch with common decency in society and seem to have
> lost any sembalance of moral compass?

As played by James Dean?

A little perusal of history would show that your plaint is probably as old
as written history and draws the same incorrect conclusion.

[Grumman-581]

> wrote in message
...
> Oh, don't get me wrong... I am not saying I disagree with your philosophy
> in the least. However, I have seen the oddest behaviors from "do-gooders"
> in this useless state.
>
> For instance...
>
> While in a blockbuster video, a kid (about age 5) was being a major pain
> and the parent swatted the kid on the rear while in the store. Another
> person came up and "detained" them until the police showed up. True story
> which I personally observed.

"This is my .45... This is your brain scattered across the videos... Any
questions?"

If you leave bruises, it could be viewed at abuse... Red marks left on the
butt don't count... Slapping the kid in the face is not really acceptable
though... Hell, what do you think that butts evolved for? Sitting? Nawh...

[Grumman-581]

"Matt Barrow" > wrote in message
...
> My at-home son is 6'3", 215 and I'd need a cinderblock to beat him
> senseless...if I could catch him.

If you start out right, they'll still be intimidated of you even when you're
on a walker and they're picking out your retirement home...

[[email protected]]

Matt
Do you have any kids? Are they all you'd like them to be? Can they
survive in a society without rules or demands for certain levels of
behaviour?
I suppose I could talk my kids to death and feel good that I'd
counseled them to the point of correct behaviour only to have to do it
again when they decided to argue the point while they misbehaved.
I can see this is a pointless argument with liberal attitudes. You can
raise your kids the way you see fit, and I'll raise mine the way I see
fit. When my kids go to war to support our way of life,and yours stay
at home doing "their thing", I'll maintain my position of arguing the
position of might/right
In the meantime, I'll demand discipline in the cockpit that many
students are not accustomed to yet respond to in a positive manner. It
can quickly become a life or death matter and they see it from a new
perspective with my instruction. Why? Because in 50 years of aviation
I've been subjected to more than most can imagine.
I hope I haven' t offended you with my bluntness, but if I have, deal
with it?
Semper Fi
Rocky

[[email protected]]

Matt
Do you have any kids? Are they all you'd like them to be? Can they
survive in a society without rules or demands for certain levels of
behaviour?
I suppose I could talk my kids to death and feel good that I'd
counseled them to the point of correct behaviour only to have to do it
again when they decided to argue the point while they misbehaved.
I can see this is a pointless argument with liberal attitudes. You can
raise your kids the way you see fit, and I'll raise mine the way I see
fit. When my kids go to war to support our way of life,and yours stay
at home doing "their thing", I'll maintain my position of arguing the
position of might/right
In the meantime, I'll demand discipline in the cockpit that many
students are not accustomed to yet respond to in a positive manner. It
can quickly become a life or death matter and they see it from a new
perspective with my instruction. Why? Because in 50 years of aviation
I've been subjected to more than most can imagine.
I hope I haven' t offended you with my bluntness, but if I have, deal
with it?
Semper Fi
Rocky

[[email protected]]

>>>>Then perhaps you can understand my position? Why are the youth of today
so far out of touch with common decency in society and seem to have
lost any sembalance of moral compass? <<<<

I'm with ya on this one Rocky. I've asked the same thing in one of my
earlier posts. IIRC I was commenting on the suspected "reality
disconnect" that it seems many kids have today. That, and the seemingly
complete disrespect for other people and their posessions. It seems
like there's no regard for the potential consequences of one's actions,
and that doesn't always just mean juveniles. Consider adults that f-up
and refuse to take responsibility for their actions.

When I was a kid (I'm 37) just taking Dad's car for a joyride before I
had a license was a hoot. I can't imagine having the stones to take his
plane (if he'd had one) I guess I never lost sight of the huge
potential downside to doing something as stupid as that. Consider again
the cases of acft being stolen last year alone (here in CT at my
airport - that guy's still in jail) . Juveniles looking for a thrill
thinking (maybe?) they can handle anything that happens just because
they have MS Flight Sim 5.whatever. Unreal.

Whew. Didn't mean to vent and I'm certainly no authority on this, but I
get really steamed when something like this happens because it just
makes GA look bad no matter what the outcome.

[[email protected]]

Reminds me of a time when I was in intensive care with 7 bullet holes
and kind of hurting...
My son came to see me and reminded me of the times when he had
challenged me to an arm wrestle and he always lost. And the day when he
said, "Dad, someday I'm gonna beat your ass". I laughed and told him,
"Son, when you get to that point you're not gonna want to." When he
leaned down to give me a soft hug in the hospital,I said, "Son, now is
your chance to beat my ass..." he reminded me of that day and said,
"Dad, I just figured out I don't want to.."
Semper Fi
Rocky

[Grumman-581]

"Peter R." > wrote in message
...
> The fact that the thief of the aircraft was his son does not negate the
> fact that the aircraft was stolen and damaged. As an aircraft owner
> myself, I have confidence that this aircraft will be covered by the
owner's
> insurance policy.

So, they'll pay off to the father on the stolen aircraft and then sue the
son for the damage that he did to it... Since the son is a minor, the father
would have to pay it... Never underestimate the limits the insurance
companies will go to to keep from paying out or getting their money back...

[Peter R.]

> wrote:

> Then perhaps you can understand my position?

Sure do, although not knowing the details of this stolen aircraft, I am
unable to judge whether anyone was actually dodging responsibility.
Perhaps the boys will come forward, admit full responsibility, and request
the fullest penalty of the law as a response for their very stupid action?

> Why are the youth of today
> so far out of touch with common decency in society and seem to have
> lost any sembalance of moral compass?

In cases such as this? Probably poor parenting. I have three young boys
ages 8, 6, and 1. Through my (and my wife's) actions and words, the older
are consistently taught responsibility, decency, and respect for authority.

They are absolutely held to a high standard and are accountable for every
one of their actions through swift discipline. My effective tool is more a
loud voice and removal of privileges rather than physical threat, although
in one memorable case even that was needed early on to stop some harmful
behavior, which it immediately did.

--
Peter

[Matt Barrow]

"Grumman-581" > wrote in message
...
> "Matt Barrow" > wrote in message
> ...
>> My at-home son is 6'3", 215 and I'd need a cinderblock to beat him
>> senseless...if I could catch him.
>
> If you start out right, they'll still be intimidated of you even when
> you're
> on a walker and they're picking out your retirement home...
>
:~)

Well, my oldest is 26, USN LT(jg) CE, at-home son is 23 and on his way to
Med school, and my youngest is 20; I never hit any of them. Ever.

Raised my voice a few times. Okay, a lotta times.


--
Matt
---------------------
Matthew W. Barrow
Site-Fill Homes, LLC.
Montrose, CO

[Matt Barrow]

> wrote in message
oups.com...
> Well, there ya go. The "do-gooder" is setting themselves up for a civil
> suit for wrongful arrest. Had it been me, I'm afraid I'd have gone to
> jail for assault and battery on the jerk for interferring with my
> parenting skills. Yeh I know, that sounds like a godawful attitude and
> a real butthead.

Yeah...it sure does. Sounds like martial skills, not parenting skills.

But, my kids still say "Yes Sir" and "No Ma'm",and
> hold doors open for people, and show respect for people.

See my post to Grumman-581.

> How they act
> privately is open for speculation but I think I'd still bet on my kids
> being respectful of others and their property.
> Are people afraid to demand some societal respect and behaviour? Well
> somebody better get their act together or we're all gonna go down in
> flames.

> I'm an active flight instructor and to no surprise, my students still
> address me as "Sir" without any demands to do so. I'd like to delude
> myself into thinking its out of respect? The majority of them are young
> officers in the Navy or Marine Corps.

My son (never hit, etc) is a USN LT (jg) and he would. He was taught WHY
courtesty and good manners are a good deal (it's reciprocal). Infer from
that what you will.

[Matt Barrow]

"Jim Logajan" > wrote in message
.. .
> wrote:
>> Why are the youth of today
>> so far out of touch with common decency in society and seem to have
>> lost any sembalance of moral compass?
>
> As played by James Dean?
>
> A little perusal of history would show that your plaint is probably as old
> as written history and draws the same incorrect conclusion.

I recall a piece about "Kids Today" that was written in ancient Rome.

[Matt Barrow]

"Grumman-581" > wrote in message
...
> > wrote in message
> ...
>> Oh, don't get me wrong... I am not saying I disagree with your philosophy
>> in the least. However, I have seen the oddest behaviors from
>> "do-gooders"
>> in this useless state.
>>
>> For instance...
>>
>> While in a blockbuster video, a kid (about age 5) was being a major pain
>> and the parent swatted the kid on the rear while in the store. Another
>> person came up and "detained" them until the police showed up. True
>> story
>> which I personally observed.
>
> "This is my .45... This is your brain scattered across the videos... Any
> questions?"
>
> If you leave bruises, it could be viewed at abuse... Red marks left on the
> butt don't count... Slapping the kid in the face is not really acceptable
> though... Hell, what do you think that butts evolved for? Sitting?
> Nawh...

I remember each of my kids throwing one tantrum in a store/restaurant/public
place. ONCE.

They were not hit, or slapped, or spanked.

They we're picked up by the belt, or whatever I could get ahold of, and
carried out of the place. Like RIGHT NOW!

It's like that TRUTH troll/puke -- you give into their tantrums once and
they've got you by the booboo until you teach them otherwise.

Sometimes that _otherwise_ never happens, and sometimes it doesn't happend
until he kid is 12-14-16 and it's virtually impossible to stop.

[Matt Barrow]

> wrote in message
ups.com...
> Matt
> Do you have any kids?

See other post.

> Are they all you'd like them to be?

Definitely.

>Can they
> survive in a society without rules or demands for certain levels of
> behaviour?

I think so...they're doing pretty good so far.


> I suppose I could talk my kids to death and feel good that I'd
> counseled them to the point of correct behaviour only to have to do it
> again when they decided to argue the point while they misbehaved.

You can't start when they're 8 or 10, or 12. You do it from birth.

> I can see this is a pointless argument with liberal attitudes. You can
> raise your kids the way you see fit, and I'll raise mine the way I see
> fit.

It has nothing to do with liberal attitudes, it has to do with THINKING, not
being a thug and expecting your kid NOT TO BE. It comes from realizing your
kids can think from the time their two years old...if you TEACH THEM HOW,
and you know how yourself.

> When my kids go to war to support our way of life,and yours stay
> at home doing "their thing",

My oldest in in the NAVY...a JG, you ****-for-brains!

GFY moron!

[Matt Barrow]

> wrote in message
oups.com...
>>>>>Then perhaps you can understand my position? Why are the youth of today
> so far out of touch with common decency in society and seem to have
> lost any sembalance of moral compass? <<<<
>
> I'm with ya on this one Rocky. I've asked the same thing in one of my
> earlier posts. IIRC I was commenting on the suspected "reality
> disconnect" that it seems many kids have today.

Maybe because that learend that from their parents.

It's called SUBJECTIVITY.

[Matt Barrow]

"Grumman-581" > wrote in message
...
> "Peter R." > wrote in message
> ...
>> The fact that the thief of the aircraft was his son does not negate the
>> fact that the aircraft was stolen and damaged. As an aircraft owner
>> myself, I have confidence that this aircraft will be covered by the
> owner's
>> insurance policy.
>
> So, they'll pay off to the father on the stolen aircraft and then sue the
> son for the damage that he did to it... Since the son is a minor, the
> father
> would have to pay it... Never underestimate the limits the insurance
> companies will go to to keep from paying out or getting their money
> back...
>
Do they do that when kids steal daddy's car and wreck it?

[Matt Barrow]

"Peter R." > wrote in message
...
> > wrote:
>
>> Then perhaps you can understand my position?
>
> Sure do, although not knowing the details of this stolen aircraft, I am
> unable to judge whether anyone was actually dodging responsibility.
> Perhaps the boys will come forward, admit full responsibility, and request
> the fullest penalty of the law as a response for their very stupid action?
>
>> Why are the youth of today
>> so far out of touch with common decency in society and seem to have
>> lost any sembalance of moral compass?
>
> In cases such as this? Probably poor parenting. I have three young boys
> ages 8, 6, and 1. Through my (and my wife's) actions and words, the older
> are consistently taught responsibility, decency, and respect for
> authority.
>
> They are absolutely held to a high standard and are accountable for every
> one of their actions through swift discipline. My effective tool is more
> a
> loud voice and removal of privileges rather than physical threat, although
> in one memorable case even that was needed early on to stop some harmful
> behavior, which it immediately did.
>
Sounds like your wife knew my wife.

Mine are 26, 23, and 20 and I'd stack them against all comers.

When my oldest was just short of two, he tried to grab christmas lights off
the tree. My wife grabbed him, said (softly) "No, it's hot" then took his
hand and quickly touched the light to show what _hot_ meant. He never did it
again (though he did take the hollow plastic ornaments off and fill them
with water). :~)

Kids comprehend a hell of a lot more than most people realize. Now, if only
adults would comprehend things other than base thuggery.

[Dave Stadt]

"Matt Barrow" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Grumman-581" > wrote in message
> ...
>> "Peter R." > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> The fact that the thief of the aircraft was his son does not negate the
>>> fact that the aircraft was stolen and damaged. As an aircraft owner
>>> myself, I have confidence that this aircraft will be covered by the
>> owner's
>>> insurance policy.
>>
>> So, they'll pay off to the father on the stolen aircraft and then sue the
>> son for the damage that he did to it... Since the son is a minor, the
>> father
>> would have to pay it... Never underestimate the limits the insurance
>> companies will go to to keep from paying out or getting their money
>> back...
>>
> Do they do that when kids steal daddy's car and wreck it?


No and they won't do it in this case either.

[Matt Barrow]

> wrote in message
oups.com...
> >hHFG>
> Cheers and Semper Fi
> Rocky

You're probably a damn fine instructor, but....

[Peter R.]

> wrote:

> Have you ever tried to make a claim in such a case? Trust me... the
> insurance companies will use vague terms and take you to the mat and
> you'll spend thousands of dollars to get what you thought you were
> paying for in coverage.

Coincidentally, I am awaiting a call back today from my insurance broker
about some non-accident related issues.

With this accident in mind, I will pose this scenario to him and ask him,
based on his forty or so years in the aircraft insurance business, whether
the damages in this case would be covered by my policy, had it occurred to
me.

I do agree with you that the details are in the small print, but logically
I am not able to perceive what defense an insurance company would use to
avoid paying this claim.

--
Peter

[David Dyer-Bennet]

"Grumman-581" > writes:

> "Matt Barrow" > wrote in message
> ...
> > My at-home son is 6'3", 215 and I'd need a cinderblock to beat him
> > senseless...if I could catch him.
>
> If you start out right, they'll still be intimidated of you even when you're
> on a walker and they're picking out your retirement home...

Or, if they're smart, will be living in another state and not speaking
to you.
--
David Dyer-Bennet, >, <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/>
RKBA: <http://noguns-nomoney.com/> <http://www.dd-b.net/carry/>
Pics: <http://dd-b.lighthunters.net/> <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/>
Dragaera/Steven Brust: <http://dragaera.info/>

[Larry Dighera]

On Tue, 28 Feb 2006 06:50:34 -0500, "John Doe" >
wrote in <gOWMf.43722$Dh.41109@dukeread04>::

>Two 14-year-old boys from Big Bear are doing OK tonight. Police say they
>suffered minor injuries after stealing an airplane from the Big Bear Airport
>and crash-landing it in Joshua Tree National Park last night.
>
>The boys' apparent joy-ride ended in the park about 10 miles north of the
>Cottonwood station.
>
>It all started here at the Big Bear Airport. A bit later, it ended in the
>middle of the desert. Police say two 14-year-olds, stole the keys to one
>boy's father's airplane and stole it from its hangar.



FAA Preliminary Report:
http://www.faa.gov/data_statistics/accident_incident/preliminary_data/media/G_0227_N.txt
************************************************** ******************************
** Report created 2/28/2006 Record 1 **
************************************************** ******************************

IDENTIFICATION
Regis#: UNK Make/Model: MO20 Description: M20,
M20A/B/C/D/E/F/G/J/L/R/S, M20K/M (T
Date: 02/26/2006 Time: 0120

Event Type: Incident Highest Injury: Minor Mid Air: N Missing:
N
Damage: Unknown

LOCATION
City: RIVERSIDE State: CA Country: US

DESCRIPTION
A MOONEY MO20 ACFT, REGISTRATION UNKNOWN, REPORTEDLY WAS STOLEN AND
CRASHED
LANDED IN JOSHUA TREE NATIONAL PARK, THE TWO PERSONS ON BOARD
SUSTAINED
MINOR INJURIES AND WERE TAKEN INTO CUSTODY BY LOCAL AUTHORITIES,
RIVERSIDE,
CA

INJURY DATA Total Fatal: 0
# Crew: 2 Fat: 0 Ser: 0 Min: 2
Unk:
# Pass: 0 Fat: 0 Ser: 0 Min: 0
Unk:
# Grnd: Fat: 0 Ser: 0 Min: 0
Unk:

WEATHER: NOT REPORTED

OTHER DATA

Departed: Dep Date: Dep. Time:
Destination: Flt Plan: Wx
Briefing:
Last Radio Cont:
Last Clearance:

FAA FSDO: RIVERSIDE, CA (WP21) Entry date:
02/27/2006

Possible Aircraft Registrar ion Data:
----------------------------------
N-number : N136MP
Aircraft Serial Number : 26-0016
Aircraft Manufacturer : MOONEY
Model : M20L
Engine Manufacturer : PORSCHE
Model : PFM 3200 NO3
Aircraft Year :
Owner Name : WILLIAMS JACK K TRUSTEE
Owner Address : PO BOX XXXX
BIG BEAR LAKE, CA, 92315-6989
Type of Owner : Co-ownership
Registration Date : 07-Mar-1990
Airworthiness Certificate Type : Standard
Approved Operations : Normal
--------------------

N-number : N111MR
Aircraft Serial Number : 670130
Aircraft Manufacturer : MOONEY
Model : M20C
Engine Manufacturer : LYCOMING
Model : O&VO-360 SER
Aircraft Year : 1967
Owner Name : ROGERS JEFFREY S
Owner Address : XXX LIBBY DR
RIVERSIDE, CA, 92507-2514
Type of Owner : Individual
Registration Date : 19-Feb-2004
Airworthiness Certificate Type : Standard
Approved Operations : Normal

[Peter R.]

Larry Dighera > wrote:

> DESCRIPTION
> A MOONEY MO20 ACFT, REGISTRATION UNKNOWN, REPORTEDLY WAS STOLEN AND
> CRASHED
> LANDED IN JOSHUA TREE NATIONAL PARK, THE TWO PERSONS ON BOARD
> SUSTAINED
> MINOR INJURIES AND WERE TAKEN INTO CUSTODY BY LOCAL AUTHORITIES,
> RIVERSIDE,

One point worth noting about this accident is that Joshua Tree National
Park is perhaps a 10 to 15 minute flight from Big Bear airport.

Wasn't it reported in the article posted by the OP that the aircraft ran
out of fuel? Something is not right there.

--
Peter

[Larry Dighera]

On Tue, 28 Feb 2006 17:54:50 -0500, "Peter R." >
wrote in >::

>Larry Dighera > wrote:
>
>> DESCRIPTION
>> A MOONEY MO20 ACFT, REGISTRATION UNKNOWN, REPORTEDLY WAS STOLEN AND
>> CRASHED
>> LANDED IN JOSHUA TREE NATIONAL PARK, THE TWO PERSONS ON BOARD
>> SUSTAINED
>> MINOR INJURIES AND WERE TAKEN INTO CUSTODY BY LOCAL AUTHORITIES,
>> RIVERSIDE,
>
>One point worth noting about this accident is that Joshua Tree National
>Park is perhaps a 10 to 15 minute flight from Big Bear airport.

A point about 10 miles north of the Cottonwood station is about 70sm
southeast of Big Bear Lake.
http://maps.google.com/?ll=33.881817,-116.350708&spn=1.673622,1.864929

Depending on the exact model, the Mooney M-20 cruises between 170 and
200 knots. http://www.risingup.com/planespecs/

>Wasn't it reported in the article posted by the OP that the aircraft ran
>out of fuel? Something is not right there.

Why?

[John Doe]

Did anyone catch the N number on that Mooney that the kids crashed?

It looked just like the one I used to own back in the 80s.

[Peter R.]

Larry Dighera > wrote:

> Peter R wrote:
>>
>>Wasn't it reported in the article posted by the OP that the aircraft ran
>>out of fuel? Something is not right there.
>
> Why?

If the aircraft really did run out of fuel, then this plus the fact that
the aircraft didn't fly very far before the engine quit implies that the
aircraft had very little fuel on the ground at Big Bear Airport.

Does it make sense to you that an aircraft sitting on the ground at an
airport surrounded by hostile terrain would have very little fuel in the
tanks? It doesn't to me.


--
Peter

[John Doe]

"John Doe" > wrote in message
news:Wq5Nf.43976$Dh.34150@dukeread04...
> Did anyone catch the N number on that Mooney that the kids crashed?
>
> It looked just like the one I used to own back in the 80s.
>
>
>

Nevermind, got it off CNN: N6588U

Registered to:

Registered Owner

Name AMELSBERG MICHAEL G
Street PO BOX 190
City BIG BEAR CITY State CALIFORNIA Zip Code 92314-0190
County SAN BERNARDINO
Country UNITED STATES

[Aluckyguess]

> wrote in message
ps.com...
> Peter
> Then perhaps you can understand my position? Why are the youth of today
> so far out of touch with common decency in society and seem to have
> lost any sembalance of moral compass?
> Damnnnn...even my own son lost his way and I shake my head trying to
> figure it out. Is it that society has allowed them to just drift along
> without fear of retribution for their actions?
> He is afraid to come to me and try his weak **** excuses because he
> knows I don't buy into it or them. Breaks my heart on a daily
> basis..... But then I have a daughter a year older who is solid gold
> and also wonders why her brother is sour....?
> I'd still beat his ass to a puffy state! Or, as they say in the middle
> east, I'd "flog him".
> Semper Fi
> Rocky
Hug your son and tell him you love him. Tell him no matter what he does you
love him. Tell him he is old enough to make his own decisions. Tell him you
can guide him, but you cant make him do anything.
Getting mad does no good it only creates more anger and resentment on both
sides.
If he is hanging around kids that you know are doing drugs and are a bad
influence tell him about it. Don let those kids hang around, you cant
control him when he isn't home but you can control the home.
Talk to him all the time ask him how his day was, try to get him to go
places with you. Take him shopping you don't need to buy anything just dream
with him. The whole time ask him what's he likes to do. Guide him toward a
job he will like.
Remember the most important thing is to tell you love him, tell your wife to
tell him this tell your daughter to tell him this. Get your brother your
best friend anyone close to talk and spend time, don't let him get away. You
will be surprised when your not on his case day after day.
Don't buy him a bunch of things make him work for it, but if he does work
for it don't let him down.
If your lucky in time things will change. He will realize the support that
he has from family and friends, he wont want to let them down.
Did I say hug him and tell him you love him.
>

[Aluckyguess]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>> >I'd beat that kids ass to a healthy puffy dimension.........
>>
>> Do that in this state, and it is you who'd be the felon. :-(
>
> I have a 15 year old son who could, I'm almost certain, fly our plane
> without difficulty.
>
> If he EVER did something this stupid -- and lived -- I wouldn't beat
> him. In fact, I'd be thanking my lucky stars that he had survived.
> I'd hug him like my life depended upon his next breath.
>
> THEN I'd beat him senseless...
>
Amen
> ;-)
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"
>

[Aluckyguess]

> wrote in message
oups.com...
> Reminds me of a time when I was in intensive care with 7 bullet holes
> and kind of hurting...
> My son came to see me and reminded me of the times when he had
> challenged me to an arm wrestle and he always lost. And the day when he
> said, "Dad, someday I'm gonna beat your ass". I laughed and told him,
> "Son, when you get to that point you're not gonna want to." When he
> leaned down to give me a soft hug in the hospital,I said, "Son, now is
> your chance to beat my ass..." he reminded me of that day and said,
> "Dad, I just figured out I don't want to.."
> Semper Fi
> Rocky
I tell my boy the same thing.
>

[Aluckyguess]

I think they are lucky they didnt make it to mexico. Amazing story. the
father must of tought him to fly. He even knew emergency procedures to land
in the desert. Wow on a day of bad weather, they where probably IFR part of
the flight.
This would make a good 1 hour movie.

[Michael Ware]

"Peter R." > wrote in message
...
> Larry Dighera > wrote:
>
> > Peter R wrote:
> >>
> >>Wasn't it reported in the article posted by the OP that the aircraft ran
> >>out of fuel? Something is not right there.
> >
> > Why?
>
> If the aircraft really did run out of fuel, then this plus the fact that
> the aircraft didn't fly very far before the engine quit implies that the
> aircraft had very little fuel on the ground at Big Bear Airport.
>
> Does it make sense to you that an aircraft sitting on the ground at an
> airport surrounded by hostile terrain would have very little fuel in the
> tanks? It doesn't to me.
>
>
> --
> Peter

Wasn't this gone over in that thread about getting fuel stolen? It's out in
the dry country, so not much worry about condensation in the tanks. He
probably tops it off just before departure, something the kid neglected to
pay attention to.

[Michael Ware]

'In California, you can get a license at 17-years-old.'

More fine reporting.

[Montblack]

("Jay Honeck" wrote)
>> I'd hug him like my life depended upon his next breath.
>>
>> THEN I'd beat him senseless...


"And in this corner ...Kid Joey Granite."

Sorry Jay, but you're going down in the 8th.
(Vegas has you a 3:1 underdog)


Montblack
Might I recommend ...a stern look. :-)

[Grumman-581]

"Aluckyguess" > wrote in message
...
> If your lucky in time things will change. He will realize the support that
> he has from family and friends, he wont want to let them down.
> Did I say hug him and tell him you love him.

And if that doesn't work, beat the **** out of him...

[Larry Dighera]

On Tue, 28 Feb 2006 19:01:02 -0500, "Peter R." >
wrote in >::

>
>If the aircraft really did run out of fuel, then this plus the fact that
>the aircraft didn't fly very far before the engine quit implies that the
>aircraft had very little fuel on the ground at Big Bear Airport.
>
>Does it make sense to you that an aircraft sitting on the ground at an
>airport surrounded by hostile terrain would have very little fuel in the
>tanks? It doesn't to me.
>

I see what you're getting at, but your presumption relies upon a fact
that hasn't yet been divulged: that the boys knew how to switch tanks.
If the aircraft's cruise speed was 170 knots, a direct route would
have taken over 20 minutes to reach Cottonwood station.

[Larry Dighera]

On Tue, 28 Feb 2006 17:22:59 -0800, "Aluckyguess" >
wrote in >::

>He even knew emergency procedures to land in the desert.

Perhaps. On the other hand, without power, one will land regardless
of knowledge of forced landing procedures.

>Wow on a day of bad weather, they where probably IFR part of
>the flight.

Given a moonless night in poor weather over the desert, I'd say they
had only a minimal horizon reference.

[Peter R.]

"Peter R." > wrote:

> With this accident in mind, I will pose this scenario to him and ask him,
> based on his forty or so years in the aircraft insurance business, whether
> the damages in this case would be covered by my policy, had it occurred to
> me.

I just spoke with my insurance broker, who incidentally has been in the
business since 1961.

I described this exact accident scenario and asked him, had it happened to
me would the aircraft damage be covered by my insurance company. His
answer was absolutely yes. By the way, my policy is with USAIG.


--
Peter

[Jose]

> would the aircraft damage be covered by my insurance company. His
> answer was absolutely yes.

.... but would they then go after your son?

Jose
--
Money: what you need when you run out of brains.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Peter R.]

Jose > wrote:

>> would the aircraft damage be covered by my insurance company. His
>> answer was absolutely yes.
>
> ... but would they then go after your son?

It seems that this newsgroup is filled with rumors of subrogation, yet no
one in the four years I have been here has anyone ever provided a first- or
secondhand account of this actually happening. It is always, "a cousin of
a friend of my brother's was once sued by the insurance company for damage
to an aircraft that happened when he was a pilot." An aviation urban
legend, as it were.

With that in mind and having secondhand knowledge of individuals who
damaged aircraft but were never sued, I would answer no to your question.

Furthermore, the reason I posted my insurance broker's answer was in
response to selwaykid's claim that the insurance company would not cover
the damages in this specific accident.

--
Peter

[Jose]

>>... but would they then go after your son?
>
> It seems that this newsgroup is filled with rumors

....which is why I asked the one who asked the source.

Jose
--
Money: what you need when you run out of brains.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Peter R.]

Jose > wrote:

>>>... but would they then go after your son?
>>
>> It seems that this newsgroup is filled with rumors
>
> ...which is why I asked the one who asked the source.

Ok, you got me: I didn't think to ask him that question, as it was not the
claim I sought out to disprove.

--
Peter

[Jay Honeck]

> "And in this corner ...Kid Joey Granite."
>
> Sorry Jay, but you're going down in the 8th.
> (Vegas has you a 3:1 underdog)

Yeah, that's the problem with us lifting weights together for the last three
years. He's pumped full of testosterone, while his old man is pumped full
of ...fruit? Even though we're lifting the same weights, I just don't bulk
up at 47 like he does at 15.

Between that, and his high school wrestling, I'd probably go down in the 3rd
round.

But, luckily, he doesn't know that...yet.

;-)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Matt Barrow]

"Peter R." > wrote in message
...
> Jose > wrote:
>
>>>>... but would they then go after your son?
>>>
>>> It seems that this newsgroup is filled with rumors
>>
>> ...which is why I asked the one who asked the source.
>
> Ok, you got me: I didn't think to ask him that question, as it was not
> the
> claim I sought out to disprove.
>

Ever hear of someone going after parents of kids that steal cars, or commit
other crimes? Successfully?

I doubt they'd waste the time and resources unless they had some strong idea
that the parent put them up to it or some such.


--
Matt
---------------------
Matthew W. Barrow
Site-Fill Homes, LLC.
Montrose, CO

[Skylune]

by "John Doe" <divx1@[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Feb 28, 2006 at 06:50 AM


Many people are wondering tonight, how did this happen? How did two
14-year
old boys get access to the airplane?<<

Only people who are unaware of the complete lack of security at most GA
airports are wondering....

[[email protected]]

>>>Only people who are unaware of the complete lack of security at most GA
airports are wondering....<<<

Really, you're becoming as predictable as the tide with your asinine &
uneducated comments...

It has been widely reported (if you were paying attention) that the
airplane belonged to one of the boys' fathers. That being the case it's
probably safe to assume that they had access to the aircraft. The OP
said they'd stolen the keys (that should've been your first clue)

[Sylvain]

Skylune wrote:

> Therefore, if anyone has keys to an airplane, they can take it aloft. Now
> I understand what you might mean by "security."

if anyone has keys/access code, etc. to: the guns cabinet, the car,
the bank vault, the missile silo launch console, the candy jar,
and yes, the occasional GA airplane, said person can use that piece
of equipment to whatever legitimate or nefarious end they chose.

That's what keys are for, that's how it works.

How would you suggest preventing it from happening? why should
(and how could) GA airplane be more secure than guns cabinets,
cars, bank vault, missile silo launch consoles, or candy jars?

--Sylvain

[Skywise]

"Skylune" > wrote in
lkaboutaviation.com:

>>>by " > Mar 6, 2006 at 12:31 PM
>
>
>
> Really, you're becoming as predictable as the tide with your asinine &
> uneducated comments...
>
> It has been widely reported (if you were paying attention) that the
> airplane belonged to one of the boys' fathers. That being the case it's
> probably safe to assume that they had access to the aircraft. The OP
> said they'd stolen the keys (that should've been your first clue)<<
>
> Therefore, if anyone has keys to an airplane, they can take it aloft. Now
> I understand what you might mean by "security."

Skylune...dude...you REALLLLLY REALLLLLLY need to learn how
to quote properly. I don't know what the problem is, and I
know I've brought it up before.

Put simply, the way you post now, others can not tell what
text is a quote from someone else and what are your own
comments.

If it weren't for having read kingfish's post before yours,
I might have through it was you who was telling kingfish
that he's "becoming as predictable as the tide...."

What software are you using? Maybe we can help you figure it
out?

Brian
--
http://www.skywise711.com - Lasers, Seismology, Astronomy, Skepticism
Seismic FAQ: http://www.skywise711.com/SeismicFAQ/SeismicFAQ.html
Quake "predictions": http://www.skywise711.com/quakes/EQDB/index.html
Sed quis custodiet ipsos Custodes?

[Jose]

> Skylune...dude...you REALLLLLY REALLLLLLY need to learn how
> to quote properly.

He's almost there. All he needs to do right now (to quote intellebly,
if not to "usenet standards", is to put his two arrows on a =separate=
line. The fact that they are now at the END of a line hides them.
Putting them on a separate line would make them much more evident -
enough more evident that though they don't conform to standards, most
people would be able to figure it out easily.

Jose
--
Money: what you need when you run out of brains.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Michael Ware]

News flash! Two fourteen year old boys steal a car and crash head on into
another, killing themselves and four others.
Gets no media attention. Probably happens almost every day.

Two fourteen year old boys steal daddy's plane, land in the desert.
Oh, the humanity! People have to know about this! We have to tell them, so
they can be terrified!

The public just needs to get a grip.

One of my favorite lines from 'All In The Family"...

Gloria (daughter): Daddy, did you know more and more people get killed with
guns every year??!
Archie: Would it make you feel any better if they were pushed out the
window?

[Grumman-581]

"Skywise" wrote in message ...
> What software are you using? Maybe we can help you figure it
> out?

He's accessing the newsgroup through a web based interface --
www.talkaboutaviation.com... If you looked at the NNTP headers on his
message, you would have seen it... Thus the problem is probably not the
interface, but rather the user...

[Skywise]

"Grumman-581" > wrote in news:Cs4Pf.37
:

> "Skywise" wrote in message ...
>> What software are you using? Maybe we can help you figure it
>> out?
>
> He's accessing the newsgroup through a web based interface --
> www.talkaboutaviation.com... If you looked at the NNTP headers on his
> message, you would have seen it... Thus the problem is probably not the
> interface, but rather the user...

I think you got that last part backwards....not the user, but the
interface, in this case the website. Every newsreader program I
am aware of does proper quoting without user intervention. Heck,
I think even google does it right?

But yes, I missed looking at the headers.

Brian
--
http://www.skywise711.com - Lasers, Seismology, Astronomy, Skepticism
Seismic FAQ: http://www.skywise711.com/SeismicFAQ/SeismicFAQ.html
Quake "predictions": http://www.skywise711.com/quakes/EQDB/index.html
Sed quis custodiet ipsos Custodes?

[Skylune]

>>

by Jose > Mar 7, 2006 at 12:05 AM


> Skylune...dude...you REALLLLLY REALLLLLLY need to learn how
> to quote properly.

He's almost there. All he needs to do right now (to quote intellebly,
if not to "usenet standards", is to put his two arrows on a =separate=
line. The fact that they are now at the END of a line hides them.
Putting them on a separate line would make them much more evident -
enough more evident that though they don't conform to standards, most
people would be able to figure it out easily.

<<


Sorry. I don't know why the talkaboutaviation.com site is not designed to
automatically place the reply in context when hitting "Post a Reply."

I have taken to manually inserting ">>" before and after, but not on a
separate line (until now). And I cannot tie up my e-mail as a Newsreader,
as Jay H. once suggested.

[Larry Dighera]

On Tue, 07 Mar 2006 10:53:41 -0500, "Skylune"
> wrote in
utaviation.com>::

>And I cannot tie up my e-mail as a Newsreader, as Jay H. once suggested.

Thank you for publicly demonstrating your total cluelessness.

[Gig 601XL Builder]

While I have not a clue as to what you mean by :tie up you e-mail as a
Newsreader. go visit this page there are plenty of newsreaders and many of
them are free.

http://www.newsreaders.com/





"Skylune" > wrote in message
lkaboutaviation.com...
>>>
>
> by Jose > Mar 7, 2006 at 12:05 AM
>
>
>> Skylune...dude...you REALLLLLY REALLLLLLY need to learn how
>> to quote properly.
>
> He's almost there. All he needs to do right now (to quote intellebly,
> if not to "usenet standards", is to put his two arrows on a =separate=
> line. The fact that they are now at the END of a line hides them.
> Putting them on a separate line would make them much more evident -
> enough more evident that though they don't conform to standards, most
> people would be able to figure it out easily.
>
> <<
>
>
> Sorry. I don't know why the talkaboutaviation.com site is not designed to
> automatically place the reply in context when hitting "Post a Reply."
>
> I have taken to manually inserting ">>" before and after, but not on a
> separate line (until now). And I cannot tie up my e-mail as a Newsreader,
> as Jay H. once suggested.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

[[email protected]]

Is it just me, or does anyone else here find it somewhat
odd/curious/amusing that Mr. Skylune, who has made painfully clear
(through incessant repetition) his feelings on the state of many GA
topics & issues - would regularly frequent a/the
"talkaboutaviation.com" site?

[Skylune]

>>

by Larry Dighera > Mar 7, 2006 at 04:22 PM


On Tue, 07 Mar 2006 10:53:41 -0500, "Skylune"
> wrote in
utaviation.com>::

>And I cannot tie up my e-mail as a Newsreader, as Jay H. once suggested.



Thank you for publicly demonstrating your total cluelessness.

<<

Coming from you, the leftie... LOL

[Jay Honeck]

> Is it just me, or does anyone else here find it somewhat
> odd/curious/amusing that Mr. Skylune, who has made painfully clear
> (through incessant repetition) his feelings on the state of many GA
> topics & issues - would regularly frequent a/the
> "talkaboutaviation.com" site?

Say what you want about Skylune, he offers us valuable insight into the
inner workings of GA's most vociferous opposition.

Usually these kinds of guys quietly roll hand grenades down the aisle, and
then duck back down. Skylune lets it all hang out, and actually engages in
(occasionally meaningful) dialog. As such, his participation here is
aggravating, but valuable.

Now if ONLY he would figure out how to use a newsreader, so that his
responses didn't appear all jumbled with the original message.

Skylune, you shouldn't have to insert the little carrot thingy (">") in
front of the original poster's sentences manually, as it sometimes appears
you are trying to do. (An effort I appreciate, by the way.) A real
newsreader will do that for you, effortlessly.

Read about newsreaders and obtain one -- or, if you'd rather not screw
around with all that, use Google Groups to get on this newsgroup. It's not
half bad, and parses your responses automatically.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[SkyLoony]

>Say what you want about Skylune, he offers us
>valuable insight into the inner workings of
>GA's most vociferous opposition.

Unfortunately, his level of intelligence is so low as to make his comments
meaningless.

[Montblack]

("SkyLoony" wrote)
> Unfortunately, his level of intelligence is so low as to make his comments
> meaningless.


Is this S-Loon's stab at self deprecating humor?

....or is SkyLoony someone new?


Montblacky

[Gig 601XL Builder]

"Montblack" > wrote in message
...
> ("SkyLoony" wrote)
>> Unfortunately, his level of intelligence is so low as to make his
>> comments meaningless.
>
>
> Is this S-Loon's stab at self deprecating humor?
>
> ...or is SkyLoony someone new?
>
>
> Montblacky

No, it's him. The same "live ski or die" e-mail address from
talkaboutaviation.com

[Peter Duniho]

"Gig 601XL Builder" <wrDOTgiaconaATcox.net> wrote in message
...
> No, it's him. The same "live ski or die" e-mail address from
> talkaboutaviation.com

No, it's not him. It only looks like him to the naive user.

Anyone can create a user with any email address they want on
talkaboutaviation.com. But only the true Skylune has user ID
"USERID-63612". The deprecating post was posted by the user with user ID
"USERID-89264".

Pretending to be someone else is against the terms of service for
talkabout.com, but frankly the worst they are likely to be able to do to the
person pretending to be Skylune is to terminate his account.

Pete

[Skylune]

>>by "Peter Duniho" > Mar 8, 2006 at 02:03 PM




No, it's not him. It only looks like him to the naive user.

Anyone can create a user with any email address they want on
talkaboutaviation.com. But only the true Skylune has user ID
"USERID-63612". The deprecating post was posted by the user with user ID

"USERID-89264".

Pretending to be someone else is against the terms of service for
talkabout.com, but frankly the worst they are likely to be able to do to
the
person pretending to be Skylune is to terminate his account.

Pete<<

The real Skylune is flattered by the impostor.

[[email protected]]

Well there was at least one error in the article.

The boys did not crash the aricraft. In fact, they executed
an off-field dead stick landing and made a good landing.

Not a great landing, but maybe the best anyone could have
done under those circunstances.

Except for the stealing the airplane and running out of fuel
parts, that is.

--

FF

[Larry Dighera]

On Thu, 09 Mar 2006 00:47:29 -0500, Bob Noel
> wrote in
>::

>In article . com>,
> wrote:
>
>> Well there was at least one error in the article.
>>
>> The boys did not crash the aricraft. In fact, they executed
>> an off-field dead stick landing and made a good landing.
>
>The plane was not substantially damaged?

FAA Preliminary Report:
http://www.faa.gov/data_statistics/accident_incident/preliminary_data/media/G_0227_N.txt
************************************************** ******************************
** Report created 2/28/2006 Record 1 **
************************************************** ******************************

IDENTIFICATION
Regis#: UNK Make/Model: MO20 Description: M20,
M20A/B/C/D/E/F/G/J/L/R/S, M20K/M (T
Date: 02/26/2006 Time: 0120

Event Type: Incident

[Skylune]

by "Jay Honeck" > Mar 8, 2006 at 02:40 PM



Say what you want about Skylune, he offers us valuable insight into the
inner workings of GA's most vociferous opposition.

Usually these kinds of guys quietly roll hand grenades down the aisle,
and

then duck back down. Skylune lets it all hang out, and actually engages
in
(occasionally meaningful) dialog. As such, his participation here is
aggravating, but valuable.

<<

Well thank you Jay! (And I will switch to Google groups soon.) But I am
really not "GA's most vociferous opponent." I'm actually not an opponent
at all.

I know I came into this group as an antagonist, but I'm not "opposed" to
GA like some of the groups out there that want to just shut it down.
(That's why I was never interested in joining these groups...)

I've always said that I personally like to fly, and therefore I don't want
GA to go away. I just want it to be more responsible. That's not the same
as saying all GA pilots suck. I think maybe 10% are clowns, or not
sufficiently qualified.

There should be better ways for GA/surrounding communities to better
coexist, but there will always be some that either don't care, break the
rules, flount the rules, etc. The noise issues obviously drive some
people crazy, and I have been badly inconvenienced and annoyed by GA noise
also. The worst is the completely unnecessary buzzing by some, and lack of
common courtesy. Aviators have acknowledged this too (the "Fly Friendly"
articles by the AOPA for example).

I am here because I want to hear what arguments pilots make against the
"anti-GA" groups. Where compromise with the community proves impossible,
I think there should be mandatory noise restrictions imposed on
non-essential GA flight.

Take care, and enjoy the longer days and better weather!

[Jose]

> Where compromise with the community proves impossible,
> I think there should be mandatory noise restrictions imposed on
> non-essential GA flight.

Why not "where compromise proves impossible, I think there should be
mandatory curfews in the community, so that, being indoors, they don't
hear the airplanes as much"? You paint GA as the one that should always
lose. Let the community banish leaf blowers first, and then we'll talk.

:) Jose
--
Money: what you need when you run out of brains.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Skylune]

by Jose > Mar 9, 2006 at 08:46 PM

Why not "where compromise proves impossible, I think there should be
mandatory curfews in the community, so that, being indoors, they don't
hear the airplanes as much"? You paint GA as the one that should always
lose. Let the community banish leaf blowers first, and then we'll talk.

:) Jose

<<

Seems we are in debate mode today.

So.... leaf blowers are covered by noise ordinances. To test this, try
firing up a leaf blower (or a Harley, or a boom box, or any other ground
based noise source at 3 a.m.) in a residential area and see what happens.


Then, make an equal or greater amount of noise in a small plane by
circling at 1000 feet at max rpm and see what happens.

[Jose]

> So.... leaf blowers are covered by noise ordinances.

They are not sufficiently covered by noise ordinances. They should be
banned from the entire planet, and anybody who even contemplates using
them should be boiled in oil.

That felt good. :)

Seriously, even during the day, the constant whine and drone of leaf
blowers destroys the quality of life far more than the intermittant
takeoffs and landings of small piston aircraft. And at 3AM not very
many people do pattern work.

Jose
--
Money: what you need when you run out of brains.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Jim Macklin]

Ft. Sill, OK 24/7 artillery


What is the difference between a Harley and a Hoover?

The location of the dirtbag. [I can say that because the
first bike I rode was a Harley and I hope to buy another].


--
The people think the Constitution protects their rights;
But government sees it as an obstacle to be overcome.
some support
http://www.usdoj.gov/olc/secondamendment2.htm
See http://www.fija.org/ more about your rights and duties.


"Skywise" > wrote in message
...
| "Skylune" > wrote in
|
lkaboutaviation.com:
|
| > by Jose > Mar 9, 2006 at 08:46
PM
| >
| > Why not "where compromise proves impossible, I think
there should be
| > mandatory curfews in the community, so that, being
indoors, they don't
| > hear the airplanes as much"? You paint GA as the one
that should always
| > lose. Let the community banish leaf blowers first, and
then we'll talk.
| >
| >:) Jose
| >
| > <<
| >
| > Seems we are in debate mode today.
| >
| > So.... leaf blowers are covered by noise ordinances.
To test this, try
| > firing up a leaf blower (or a Harley, or a boom box, or
any other ground
| > based noise source at 3 a.m.) in a residential area and
see what happens.
|
|
| Good luck having _anything_ done about it!
|
| Harely's don't bother me. But then, I'm biased, as I have
one.
|
| I also like loud music, given that I play guitar.
|
| But those rolling boom boxes that rattle things in the
house do
| bother me. Long story short, I had to deal with that in a
former
| neighborhood and I did try to have something done about
it. No go.
| A police officer MUST witness the event, and they're not
likely
| to care on top of it.
|
|
| > Then, make an equal or greater amount of noise in a
small plane by
| > circling at 1000 feet at max rpm and see what happens.
|
| Try living near a military base. A little Cessna is
nothing when you
| have a couple Harriers on base over your house like I do
on occassion.
| Granted, it's not a very active base. (Los Alamitos AAF,
KSLI). But
| when I was a wee lad I lived under the pattern of Hill AFB
in Utah,
| which at the time was a very active NATO training base.
The statistic
| at the time was a take off/departure on average every 45
seconds. I
| got to the point that I could identify all the aircraft by
sound.
|
| Yes, some measures can be taken to reduce the amount of
noise, but
| you can only go so far before it starts to interfere with
safe flight
| operations. I've flown out of John Wayne/Santa Ana
commercially and
| the although the roller coaster ride on take off is quite
fun, it's
| also dangerous.
|
| But then, I must defer to the "who was there first? the
airport? or
| the neighborhood?" argument. Anyone who knowingly moves
near an
| airport has no sympathy from me. It's common sense that
airplanes
| make noise, and if it bothers you, then don't move there.
DUH.
|
| Brian
| --
| http://www.skywise711.com - Lasers, Seismology, Astronomy,
Skepticism
| Seismic FAQ:
http://www.skywise711.com/SeismicFAQ/SeismicFAQ.html
| Quake "predictions":
http://www.skywise711.com/quakes/EQDB/index.html
| Sed quis custodiet ipsos Custodes?

[Skywise]

"Jim Macklin" > wrote in
news:ma3Qf.116723$QW2.107268@dukeread08:

> Ft. Sill, OK 24/7 artillery
>
>
> What is the difference between a Harley and a Hoover?
>
> The location of the dirtbag. [I can say that because the
> first bike I rode was a Harley and I hope to buy another].

A t-shirt going around lately has written on the back, "If you
can read this, the bitch fell off".

My fave though is, "If I have to explain, you wouldn't understand".
I've found that applies to many things.

BTW, what did you have? I have an '86 Sportster 883. Good for
rippin' around the city but it's a back breaker long haul.

Brian
--
http://www.skywise711.com - Lasers, Seismology, Astronomy, Skepticism
Seismic FAQ: http://www.skywise711.com/SeismicFAQ/SeismicFAQ.html
Quake "predictions": http://www.skywise711.com/quakes/EQDB/index.html
Sed quis custodiet ipsos Custodes?

[Jay Honeck]

> BTW, what did you have? I have an '86 Sportster 883. Good for
> rippin' around the city but it's a back breaker long haul.

We looked at one of those in '87. Went with the Goldwing instead, cuz we
planned to ride from Wisconsin to California and back, and my kidneys
couldn't take the pounding. I also didn't want to be one of those guys you
see wrenching on the side of I-80 between Des Moines and Sturgis every
summer.

I still have that cycle today, amazingly enough, but now I take the kids on
camping trips with it instead of Mary. That bike was made damned well by
some good folks in Ohio, and I don't intend to sell it anytime soon.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Skywise]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in
news:3D5Qf.606611$084.226246@attbi_s22:

>> BTW, what did you have? I have an '86 Sportster 883. Good for
>> rippin' around the city but it's a back breaker long haul.
>
> We looked at one of those in '87. Went with the Goldwing instead, cuz
> we planned to ride from Wisconsin to California and back, and my kidneys
> couldn't take the pounding. I also didn't want to be one of those guys
> you see wrenching on the side of I-80 between Des Moines and Sturgis
> every summer.
>
> I still have that cycle today, amazingly enough, but now I take the kids
> on camping trips with it instead of Mary. That bike was made damned
> well by some good folks in Ohio, and I don't intend to sell it anytime
> soon.

hhahaha......yeah. Harley's seem to have a rep for needing "wrenched"
on and marking their spot. My bike had the new (at the time) Evolution
engine. I've had what I consider minor problems. I had to replace the
clutch but managed that myself without even buying the proprietary
spring release tool. I am on my fourth oil tank now, though. The
mounting brackets break their welds and all the oil comes out. Vibration
problem. It's a solid mounted engine. Oh, and my bike took about ten
years before it started dripping oil. It now drips plenty of oil. The
gaskets could use replacing. But I'm actually afraid to do that as the
engine is running so damned good. I fear that doing major work may cause
more problems down the road than dealing with some oil drips. It does
have some minor electrical problems with the wiring, but what do you
expect from 20 years of exposure to the elements? It's a working bike,
not just a weekend toy.

Over all it's been a very reliable and strong machine.

Brian
--
http://www.skywise711.com - Lasers, Seismology, Astronomy, Skepticism
Seismic FAQ: http://www.skywise711.com/SeismicFAQ/SeismicFAQ.html
Quake "predictions": http://www.skywise711.com/quakes/EQDB/index.html
Sed quis custodiet ipsos Custodes?

[[email protected]]

>>>>I know I came into this group as an antagonist, but I'm not "opposed" to GA like some of the groups out there that want to just shut it down... snip...I don't want GA to go away. I just want it to be more responsible. That's not the same as saying all GA pilots suck. I think maybe 10% are clowns, or not sufficiently qualified... snip... The worst is the completely unnecessary buzzing by some, and lack of common courtesy.<<<<

A rational argument such as this I can work with. Often pilots are
their own worst enemies, and some need to be better neighbors. IMHO
your 10% figure may be conservative, but currency/competancy is a
self-policing issue with little oversight possible from the federales.
Buzzing is illegal and dangerous but then again so is drunk driving -
there's no way that I know of to totally eliminate either short of
hugely restrictive & draconian legislation. If some knucklehead wants
to risk his own ass by buzzing that's one thing I suppose, but putting
others on the ground at risk is inexcusable. Get his tail # if you can
and call the local FAA Flight Standards District Office. That'll get
their attention, and I suspect receiving a letter in the mail from the
FAA looking for an explanation will get the buzzer's attention.

[[email protected]]

Bob Noel wrote:
> In article . com>,
> wrote:
>
> > Well there was at least one error in the article.
> >
> > The boys did not crash the aricraft. In fact, they executed
> > an off-field dead stick landing and made a good landing.
>
> The plane was not substantially damaged?
>

I didn't say it was a great landing.

However, as I understand it, the plane is thought to be repairable.

--

FF

[Skylune]

by " > Mar 10, 2006 at 06:34 AM



A rational argument such as this I can work with. Often pilots are
their own worst enemies, and some need to be better neighbors. IMHO
your 10% figure may be conservative, but currency/competancy is a
self-policing issue with little oversight possible from the federales.
<<

Good. Because that is the same argument I have been making from Day One.
Problem is, it is next to impossible to anticipate when you will be buzzed,
and to catch the N-number from the ground.

If you complain, it is a classic Catch-22. The FAA says it is not
responsible for noise (and it isn't) the local airport is. The local
airport then tells you that noise abatement is voluntary, and once the
plane is in the air, it is up to the FAA.

Even if you do see the N-number, the FAA will make you PROVE that the
plane was below 1000' AGL. To my knowledge, no one on the ground has ever
been able to prove this to the FAA's satisfaction. So offending pilots get
off absolutely scot free, unless they do something really reckless like
buzzing a beach in Calif at 100 feet.

Because no one is responsible, citizen groups have cropped up all across
the country. Some, like STN are over the top, and some, like Plane Sense
of Groton, are very reasonable. Some pilots have made some efforts to
deal with the problem. Others then went out of their way to purposely
antagonize the noise protestors (see their web site).

[Jose]

> Because no one is responsible, citizen groups have cropped up all across
> the country.

Who benefits by closing an airport? Local residents have a somewhat
quieter backdrop to run their leafblowers in. Real estate tycoons
subdivide the airport and make more money in an afternoon than we can
imagine in a day.

Who do you think has a greater incentive to close the airport? Sure
citizens are footsoldiers, but by and large, follow the money.

Jose
--
Money: what you need when you run out of brains.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Larry Dighera]

On Fri, 10 Mar 2006 21:45:56 GMT, Jose >
wrote in >::

>Who do you think has a greater incentive to close the airport?

What of the interests of the municipality's board of supervisors? By
permitting the airport property to be developed, they receive
additional tax revenue instead of having to subsidize the cost of
running the airport.

But in the long run, both the city and its residents loose; in the
future they will not have a local airport from which to reach the
international airport that has been relocated some distance from
development.

[Jose]

> But in the long run, both the city and its residents loose

Lose.

But yes, they lose, and the real estate developers win. Follow the money.

Jose
--
Money: what you need when you run out of brains.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Larry Dighera]

On Fri, 10 Mar 2006 22:27:13 GMT, Jose >
wrote in >::

>> But in the long run, both the city and its residents loose
>
>Lose.

Oops.

>But yes, they lose, and the real estate developers win. Follow the money.

And the municipality garners increased revenue and no longer has to
expend funds to operate the airport.

Of course, when we all start flying these:
http://www.innovatortech.ca/
we won't need airports. :-)

[Sylvain]

Jose wrote:
> Who benefits by closing an airport? Local residents have a somewhat
> quieter backdrop to run their leafblowers in.

not for long, because by the time the developers are done
doing what they do, their backdrop would have a much higher
density of population, and everything that goes with it, i.e.,
a lot more traffic, polution, crime, and.... noise.

--Sylvain

[Jose]

> And the municipality garners increased revenue and no longer has to
> expend funds to operate the airport.

Actually the municipality probably also garners increased costs which
more than offset the increased revenue. It's hard to trace, but easy to
see, if you plot, say, percent corporate development vs mill rate.

Jose
--
Money: what you need when you run out of brains.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Orval Fairbairn]

In article >,
Larry Dighera > wrote:

> On Fri, 10 Mar 2006 21:45:56 GMT, Jose >
> wrote in >::
>
> >Who do you think has a greater incentive to close the airport?
>
> What of the interests of the municipality's board of supervisors? By
> permitting the airport property to be developed, they receive
> additional tax revenue instead of having to subsidize the cost of
> running the airport.
>
> But in the long run, both the city and its residents loose; in the
> future they will not have a local airport from which to reach the
> international airport that has been relocated some distance from
> development.

Don't forget -- developers represent the largest single contributor
special interest group at the state and local levels in the US.

As such, they automatically have the ear of the politicians.

The only remedy is to organize and to support our aviation PAC's (AOPA
PAC, California Pilot PAC, etc.) We can whine, or we can act!