Another pilot grounded by insurance

[Roger Long]

By this time tomorrow I will probably be posting my good-by to this
group and the most interesting and rewarding adventure of my life.

During an insurance review today we learned that our umbrella policy
will only cover aircraft risks if I also have an aviation policy that
covers each person up to $1,000,000. The club Avemco policy has a
$100,000 per person limit and they tell me there is no way it could be
bumped up for club coverage. They also doubt that I could find
personal coverage in that amount. Even if I could, the Liberty Mutual
would want about as much as renters insurance to add aviation risks to
the umbrella. Not needing to carry that cost has been a key to
aviation for this financially marginal pilot. With two kids too close
to college for us to recover from a major economic hit, we can’t take
the risk on not having the umbrella as well as the club insurance.

I’m pretty sure that the solution does not lie with the aviation
insurance having done an alternate insurance search for the club a
year or so ago. My only hope is to find an umbrella carrier that will
accept the limits now standard in aviation. If anyone knows of one
that will, I would like to hear about it. Otherwise, check back here
in a couple days for a list of headsets and other stuff for sale.

--

Roger Long

[Peter R.]

Roger Long > wrote:

> By this time tomorrow I will probably be posting my good-by to this
> group and the most interesting and rewarding adventure of my life.

Very sorry to read this, Roger. I have enjoyed your contributions to this
group over the last four or so years I have been reading it.

I certainly understand your dilemma.

--
Peter

[Jose]

> My only hope is to find an umbrella carrier that will
> accept the limits now standard in aviation. If anyone knows of one
> that will, I would like to hear about it. Otherwise, check back here
> in a couple days for a list of headsets and other stuff for sale.

There is another hope. Buy an airplane. It doesn't have to be an
expensive one, but it does have to be a real one. Then you can buy
owner insurance which will reach your limits and be covered by your
umbrella.

Such insurance often comes with rental insurance also. Lease the plane
back and rent whatever you want.

Jose
--
Money: what you need when you run out of brains.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Montblack]

("Roger Long" wrote)
> By this time tomorrow I will probably be posting my good-by to this group
> and the most interesting and rewarding adventure of my life.


Tell them to write you the policy or you'll have to introduce them to your
friends - The Russians. :-)

Good luck getting it all sorted out!


Montblack
Good job and congratulations on your History Channel special. It was
interesting.

[john smith]

> During an insurance review today we learned that our umbrella policy
> will only cover aircraft risks if I also have an aviation policy that
> covers each person up to $1,000,000. The club Avemco policy has a
> $100,000 per person limit and they tell me there is no way it could be
> bumped up for club coverage. They also doubt that I could find
> personal coverage in that amount. Even if I could, the Liberty Mutual
> would want about as much as renters insurance to add aviation risks to
> the umbrella. Not needing to carry that cost has been a key to
> aviation for this financially marginal pilot.

Do you mean your homeowners umbrella policy?
I have a homeowners umbrella policy for $1M, but I haven't reviewed it
for aviation limitations.
I do have an AVEMCO $1M renters insurance policy. I pay $400/year for
that.

[Dudley Henriques]

I'm really sorry to hear this Roger, and I hope that in the end there's a
way for you to solve it.
Every time I hear of something like this happening to one of today's pilots,
I thank God my actual flying days came to an end before the onset of this
mess that lawyers have made of general aviation. They have all but killed it
at this point for many of us out here.
Please think about not leaving the group. Perhaps something will break in
another direction for you, and hanging out here with your friends might be
the place to find out about it.
Dudley Henriques



"Roger Long" > wrote in message
...
> By this time tomorrow I will probably be posting my good-by to this group
> and the most interesting and rewarding adventure of my life.
>
> During an insurance review today we learned that our umbrella policy will
> only cover aircraft risks if I also have an aviation policy that covers
> each person up to $1,000,000. The club Avemco policy has a $100,000 per
> person limit and they tell me there is no way it could be bumped up for
> club coverage. They also doubt that I could find personal coverage in that
> amount. Even if I could, the Liberty Mutual would want about as much as
> renters insurance to add aviation risks to the umbrella. Not needing to
> carry that cost has been a key to aviation for this financially marginal
> pilot. With two kids too close to college for us to recover from a major
> economic hit, we can’t take the risk on not having the umbrella as well as
> the club insurance.
>
> I’m pretty sure that the solution does not lie with the aviation insurance
> having done an alternate insurance search for the club a year or so ago.
> My only hope is to find an umbrella carrier that will accept the limits
> now standard in aviation. If anyone knows of one that will, I would like
> to hear about it. Otherwise, check back here in a couple days for a list
> of headsets and other stuff for sale.
>
> --
>
> Roger Long
>
>
>
>

[Roger Long]

Yes, it's a homeowner's catastrophic risk umbrella policy intended to
keep you from being wiped out by something that exceeds other
insurance you carry.

An AVEMCO $1M renters insurance policy, according to what they told me
today, is only a $333,333 per person policy if I fill all the seats in
my 172.

--

Roger Long

[Roger Long]

I appreciate that Dudley but, if I have to turn in the keys to the
plane I've worked so hard and gone through so much grief and political
ugliness to turn from a flying junk pile into a beautifully
functioning and reliable machine I'm going to have to just go away for
a while, bury myself in other things, and try not to think about
anything to do with aviation for a long time.

--

Roger Long



"Dudley Henriques" > wrote in message
nk.net...
> I'm really sorry to hear this Roger, and I hope that in the end
> there's a way for you to solve it.
> Every time I hear of something like this happening to one of today's
> pilots, I thank God my actual flying days came to an end before the
> onset of this mess that lawyers have made of general aviation. They
> have all but killed it at this point for many of us out here.
> Please think about not leaving the group. Perhaps something will
> break in another direction for you, and hanging out here with your
> friends might be the place to find out about it.
> Dudley Henriques
>

[Dudley Henriques]

I understand. Been there;done that.
We're here if, when, and always God willing, and the very best to you.
Dudley

"Roger Long" > wrote in message
...
>I appreciate that Dudley but, if I have to turn in the keys to the plane
>I've worked so hard and gone through so much grief and political ugliness
>to turn from a flying junk pile into a beautifully functioning and reliable
>machine I'm going to have to just go away for a while, bury myself in other
>things, and try not to think about anything to do with aviation for a long
>time.
>
> --
>
> Roger Long
>
>
>
> "Dudley Henriques" > wrote in message
> nk.net...
>> I'm really sorry to hear this Roger, and I hope that in the end there's a
>> way for you to solve it.
>> Every time I hear of something like this happening to one of today's
>> pilots, I thank God my actual flying days came to an end before the onset
>> of this mess that lawyers have made of general aviation. They have all
>> but killed it at this point for many of us out here.
>> Please think about not leaving the group. Perhaps something will break in
>> another direction for you, and hanging out here with your friends might
>> be the place to find out about it.
>> Dudley Henriques
>>
>
>

[Doug]

Screw the insuranace. Do it anyway. No law (that I know of) that says
you have to have that much insurance anyway. Lots of us just carry
100k liability and put the savings into making the plane safer or more
instruction so we are better pilots. Life is too short to be controlled
by insurance......

At least that's my take.

[Peter R.]

Doug > wrote:

> Life is too short to be controlled
> by insurance......

Perhaps it is life being controlled by the fear of lawsuits, which is not
necessarily an irrational fear.

--
Peter

[Darkwing]

"Dudley Henriques" > wrote in message
nk.net...
> I'm really sorry to hear this Roger, and I hope that in the end there's a
> way for you to solve it.
> Every time I hear of something like this happening to one of today's
> pilots, I thank God my actual flying days came to an end before the onset
> of this mess that lawyers have made of general aviation. They have all but
> killed it at this point for many of us out here.
> Please think about not leaving the group. Perhaps something will break in
> another direction for you, and hanging out here with your friends might be
> the place to find out about it.
> Dudley Henriques
>


Yeah lawyers scare me and that is why I tend to fly solo or with a CFI if I
need someone to do something.

------------------------------------------------
DW

[Peter Duniho]

"Roger Long" > wrote in message
...
> [...]
> I’m pretty sure that the solution does not lie with the aviation insurance
> having done an alternate insurance search for the club a year or so ago.

Not to question the thoroughness of your search, but...

How thorough was your search? :)

In particular, did you check with Airsure? The only reason I ask is that I
have a $1 million smooth personal policy through them, so I know they offer
it. Granted, I pay an arm and a leg, the airplane is a seaplane, and I'm
required to have annual training in type. But it IS possible. And as far
as I know, the primary reason I pay an arm and a leg is because the
airplane's a seaplane. The bulk of the cost of policy (about 85%) is for
the hull coverage; the liability portion is actually relatively comparable
to the cost for a similar landplane from other insurance companies.

As far as your search for an umbrella policy goes, I can't remember the name
of the company, but we were offered a high-end insurance coverage by a
company that pretty much writes whatever you want. If I can track down
their name, I'll post it here. No guarantees the cost will be reasonable,
but you never know.

Pete

[Peter Duniho]

"Roger Long" > wrote in message
...
> [...]
> An AVEMCO $1M renters insurance policy, according to what they told me
> today, is only a $333,333 per person policy if I fill all the seats in my
> 172.

Well, sort of. If every passenger maxes out their liability payment, then
yes. But what you really have is a maximum of $1 million liability coverage
with something like that. If you have three passengers, then yes...the
*average* payment per person won't be higher than a third of that per
person, but that doesn't change the fact that a) an individual passenger may
get more than one third of the policy, depending on liability for the other
passengers, and b) you are still covered for the full $1 million.

I've never heard of a "$1 million smooth" policy that was actually $1
million per passenger. That's the total liability coverage, and it covers
YOU, not the passengers per se.

Pete

[Doug]

Trouble with insurance. Fear based decision making.....

Make up your own mind.

The guy who "reviewed" your insurance requirements, would he happen to
be an insurance salesman?

[Peter R.]

Doug > wrote:

> The guy who "reviewed" your insurance requirements, would he happen to
> be an insurance salesman?

To whom are you directing this question? You replied to my post (sans
quotes), but I made no mention of being reviewed.


--
Peter

[Jose]

> The guy who "reviewed" your insurance requirements, would he happen to
> be an insurance salesman?

I was also looking for a million smooth (for the same reason) and my
insurance salesman dissuaded me from pursuing it. He said that most
suits settle for the insured amount (or less). I did obtain a million
smooth policy, a bridge pilicy, and then an umbrella (had to be
separate, since homeowner insuran ce disaallowed all aviation claims but
that policy was discontinued a few years back.

Now it's unobtainium.

Jose
--
Money: what you need when you run out of brains.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Doug]

Roger was the one who said upon review....

[Jim Logajan]

Bob Noel > wrote:
> In article >,
> "Roger Long" > wrote:
>
>> By this time tomorrow I will probably be posting my good-by to this
>> group and the most interesting and rewarding adventure of my life.
>
> even if you can't continue to fly, why can't you continue to participate
> in the groups?

Not everyone can afford the price for Usenet posting insurance. That's why
Usenet postings are on the decline.

;-)

[Grumman-581]

"Peter R." > wrote in message
...
> Perhaps it is life being controlled by the fear of lawsuits, which is not
> necessarily an irrational fear.

Maybe he lives somewhere that doesn't have any gators for disposal of the
lawyers... Gators gotta eat too, ya' know...

http://www.geocities.com/grumman581/lawyer-problem-solution.htm

[Roger Long]

For myself, I entirely agree with you. If I ended my days living
under a bridge somewhere because an aviation accident wiped me out
financially, I'd consider it a life well lived for having flown.
However, I can't make that decision for my wife and kids.

--

Roger Long



"Doug" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Screw the insuranace. Do it anyway. No law (that I know of) that
> says
> you have to have that much insurance anyway. Lots of us just carry
> 100k liability and put the savings into making the plane safer or
> more
> instruction so we are better pilots. Life is too short to be
> controlled
> by insurance......
>
> At least that's my take.
>

[[email protected]]

Roger, I hate to sound ignorante but sometimes I can't help it. Reading
your post it sounds like you own the plane, but reading other's post
you may be part of a club as I am.
If you own your own plane, wouldn't it be feasable to start a small
corporation and put the plane in the corporations name? This way your
homeowners umbrella shouldn't need to cover aviation. The corporation
would have a seperate policy to cover aviation, not to mention certain
tax advatages that may help save enough money that would cover the
cost of the insurance.
Lou

[Roger Long]

I'm the maintenance officer of the club. I joined when the club was
run by a cabal of junk men who managed it like those people who search
for car inspection stations that will just slap a sticker on without
checking anything. Looking back, I would never have set foot in that
plane knowing what I do now.

I educated myself and the club and fought a few years of bitter
political battles after which we started rebuilding things.
Technically, I'm the owner, along with 20 odd other people, of the
non-profit that owns the aircraft but we are all considered "owners"
by the FAA and insurance company. As the one primarily responsible
for the restoration of the aircraft, and it being the only plane I fly
(or can afford to fly), it does feel like "my" plane.

Since I'm hemmed in by by-laws that take months to change, the needs
of other members, state statutes governing non-profits, and very
limited financial resources for someone involved in aviation, I
haven't got a lot of wiggle room.

I'm going to call AOPA today and see if they have any ideas.

--

Roger Long



> wrote in message
oups.com...
> Roger, I hate to sound ignorante but sometimes I can't help it.
> Reading
> your post it sounds like you own the plane, but reading other's post
> you may be part of a club as I am.
> If you own your own plane, wouldn't it be feasable to start a small
> corporation and put the plane in the corporations name? This way
> your
> homeowners umbrella shouldn't need to cover aviation. The
> corporation
> would have a seperate policy to cover aviation, not to mention
> certain
> tax advatages that may help save enough money that would cover the
> cost of the insurance.
> Lou
>

[John T]

Grumman-581 wrote:
>
> Maybe he lives somewhere that doesn't have any gators for disposal of
> the lawyers... Gators gotta eat too, ya' know...

Then we'd have PETA after us for cruelty to animals...

--
John T
http://tknowlogy.com/TknoFlyer
Reduce spam. Use Sender Policy Framework: http://spf.pobox.com
____________________

[Jay Honeck]

> My flying is under nearly as much financial pressure as from the insurance
> so my options to resolve this are very limited.

Ah, but soon all those Titanic book deals and speaking fees will be rolling
in, right? No worries! Buy a Lancair!

:-)

> BTW I'm doing the review myself

Good...

> and the lawyer involved is my wife.

Roger, as I recall (digging way back in the brain box here) your wife has
never been happy about you flying, right?

Uh oh. Has she finally found the wedge issue she's been looking for all
along? I've seen this happen before...
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Roger Long]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote > Roger, as I recall
(digging way back in the brain box here) your wife has
> never been happy about you flying, right?

Just to stick to objective facts, since I started flying in 1997, she
has never even seen the airplane.

Young single pilots, take note.

--

Roger Long

[Jay Honeck]

> (digging way back in the brain box here) your wife has
>> never been happy about you flying, right?
>
> Just to stick to objective facts, since I started flying in 1997, she has
> never even seen the airplane.
>
> Young single pilots, take note.

Augh! It's even worse than I thought.

Let me get this straight: She's fine with you diving 2.5 miles down into
the Atlantic, to see the Titanic wreck -- but she doesn't want you to fly?

How do YOU spell "irrational fear"?

:-)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Morgans]

"Roger Long" > wrote

> My flying is under nearly as much financial pressure as from the
> insurance so my options to resolve this are very limited.
>
> BTW I'm doing the review myself and the lawyer involved is my wife.

How about an arrangement for someone else (a really good pilot friend that
you really trust, if there is anyone) to "buy" the plane for a fixed period
of time, then you buy it back when flying becomes more financially possible?
The price could be one buck. It almost sounds like a lease.

That way, liability is removed, the plane is being used and taken care of
and you might get to go up for a spin every once in a while. When the kids'
future is not a factor, you buy the plane back.
--
Jim in NC

[Morgans]

"Morgans" > wrote

> How about an arrangement for someone else (a really good pilot friend that
> you really trust, if there is anyone) to "buy" the plane for a fixed
period
> of time, then you buy it back when flying becomes more financially
possible?
> The price could be one buck. It almost sounds like a lease.
>

Never mind! I see now, that it is a club airplane.

Why don't you see about the club covering *all* of the insurance, and
splitting the costs by the flight hour charges?
--
Jim in NC

[john smith]

In article <SEiNf.803438$_o.181321@attbi_s71>,
"Jay Honeck" > wrote:

> > (digging way back in the brain box here) your wife has
> >> never been happy about you flying, right?
> >
> > Just to stick to objective facts, since I started flying in 1997, she has
> > never even seen the airplane.
> >
> > Young single pilots, take note.
>
> Augh! It's even worse than I thought.
>
> Let me get this straight: She's fine with you diving 2.5 miles down into
> the Atlantic, to see the Titanic wreck -- but she doesn't want you to fly?

I was trying to figure out how the insurance company rated the risk of
that... the diving, that is.

[JJS]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message news:SEiNf.803438$_o.181321@attbi_s71...
>> (digging way back in the brain box here) your wife has
>>> never been happy about you flying, right?
>>
>> Just to stick to objective facts, since I started flying in 1997, she has never even seen the airplane.
>>
>> Young single pilots, take note.
>
> Augh! It's even worse than I thought.
>
> Let me get this straight: She's fine with you diving 2.5 miles down into the Atlantic, to see the Titanic wreck --
> but she doesn't want you to fly?
>
> How do YOU spell "irrational fear"?

Damn Jay,

That's exactly what I thought when this thread started but I didn't want to offend Roger so I didn't say anything.
You are Cold!
But seriously Rodger, since he brought it up was your deep dive covered by insurance and what did your wife think of
you going on that adventure?
And one more thing, please consider asking your entire family what they think of your flying before you lay this
guilt trip on yourself. It just may be that they are the ones who'll never forgive themselves for asking you to give
up something you love.

'Fade to a whisper'... Psss Guys, Don't tell Rodger but I'm stringing him along here so he doesn't leave. Keep
asking him questions!

'Back to normal tone of voice'

Rodger, what do those wimpy submariners have in lieu of hangar flying sessions. Any good newsgroups for deep sea
submersibles?

Joe Schneider
N8437R



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[[email protected]]

Doug wrote:
> Screw the insuranace. Do it anyway. No law (that I know of) that says
> you have to have that much insurance anyway. Lots of us just carry
> 100k liability and put the savings into making the plane safer or more
> instruction so we are better pilots. Life is too short to be controlled
> by insurance......
>
> At least that's my take.

I'm with you on that. I remember once, after buying a new sports car,
having an acquaintance say "I'd love to have one of those - but could
never afford the insurance"
I told him that the cost of insurance was not a consideration - that
there was nothing
in this world that I would refrain from doing because of the cost of
insurance. That
was 35 years ago - and I still have the car (and still feel the same
way). I have been
an aircraft owner for nearly as long, and feel no differently about
flying. I am conservative in everything I do, and conciously avoid
potential liability. But I sure as hell don't worry
about it.

As an aside, someone else noted that the car was red - and therefore
(to him) a magnet
for the police. Bullcrap! The cops have stopped me only once in that
car - and rightly
so (I was missing a rearview mirror). Someone had broken it, and I
couldn't find a replacement right away. My other car happened to be out
of commission that day - and I had an urgent matter to attend to - or I
wouldn't have been driving the one with the missing
mirror.

David Johnson

[Aluckyguess]

This may sound morbid but, If you need that much insurance from a plane
crash you are probably dead anyhow. So who cares.

[Jose]

> This may sound morbid but, If you need that much insurance from a plane
> crash you are probably dead anyhow. So who cares.

Your spouse, your six year old daughter...

Jose
--
Money: what you need when you run out of brains.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Jay Honeck]

>> How do YOU spell "irrational fear"?
>
> Damn Jay,
>
> That's exactly what I thought when this thread started but I didn't want
> to offend Roger so I didn't say anything. You are Cold!

Sometimes the best thing you can do for a friend is slap him in the face.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Montblack]

("Jay Honeck" wrote)
> Sometimes the best thing you can do for a friend is slap him in the face.


Long slips in a surprising upper-cut to Honeck after first telling the
referee, "No mas, no mas."

"Down goes Honeck"
"Down goes Honeck"
"Down goes Honeck"


MontButterbean
I do enjoy ESPN Classic Fights :-)

[ET]

"Roger Long" > wrote in news:w5gNf.53$Da7.24
@twister.nyroc.rr.com:

> I'm the maintenance officer of the club. I joined when the club was
> run by a cabal of junk men who managed it like those people who search
> for car inspection stations that will just slap a sticker on without
> checking anything. Looking back, I would never have set foot in that
> plane knowing what I do now.
>
> I educated myself and the club and fought a few years of bitter
> political battles after which we started rebuilding things.
> Technically, I'm the owner, along with 20 odd other people, of the
> non-profit that owns the aircraft but we are all considered "owners"
> by the FAA and insurance company. As the one primarily responsible
> for the restoration of the aircraft, and it being the only plane I fly
> (or can afford to fly), it does feel like "my" plane.
>
> Since I'm hemmed in by by-laws that take months to change, the needs
> of other members, state statutes governing non-profits, and very
> limited financial resources for someone involved in aviation, I
> haven't got a lot of wiggle room.
>
> I'm going to call AOPA today and see if they have any ideas.
>


What state are you in??? if you are in Texas or Florida, the worst a
lawsuit can really do is put a ding in your credit rating, you are NEVER
"required" to pay (talking an individual here, not a corporation),
unless the creditor files a separate lawsuit to force you into
involuntary bankrupcy (almost unheard of) and even THEN your homestead
is exempt ALL retirment funds (401K,IRA, 529education plans, annuities)
are exempt... dunno about other states, some can actually garnish wages,
some are simular to TX and FL....

--
-- ET >:-)

"A common mistake people make when trying to design something
completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete
fools."---- Douglas Adams

[[email protected]]

Aluckyguess wrote:
> This may sound morbid but, If you need that much insurance from a plane
> crash you are probably dead anyhow. So who cares.

Plus Allstate has to fix your damage: remember to warm up the engine in
Zero weather

"Their small plane had been in the air less than a minute when Casey
Mattuck, 18, and his flight instructor realized the engine was
strangely sluggish and not going to keep them airborne for long.
But what could have been a disaster turned into the best lesson of his
short piloting career, Mattuck said.

Figuring they wouldn't be able to get back to the airport, instructor
John Vashko, 63, steered the plane to a crash landing beside the
Elgin-O'Hare Expressway about 12:40 p.m. Sunday.
Parts of the wing were shorn off and the fuselage was upside down on
the eastbound shoulder of the highway, which authorities closed for
several hours, but Vashko only had a minor head wound and Mattuck
walked away uninjured. No one on the ground was hit."

Time to improve those air defenses... JG...maybe some camo netting ??