Glider rating near Sacramento

[Robert M. Gary]

I'm thinking about getting a glider rating for my BFR this summer. I
talked with one place in Truckee but was told it would take an entire
week to do.
Are there any places to do this that specalize in BFRs such that you
can fly much more per day in order to be done in a few intense days? I
just can't justify being away for an entire week for a BFR.
-Robert

[BTIZ]

But you were not talking about getting a BFR, you were talking about getting
an Additional Rating instead of a BFR.

Look up FAR61.109 and see what is required for the add on rating. A week is
in your words, "a few intense days", plus factor wind/weather problems /
delays.

Many people can do it in a week, many active pilots cannot. Can you fly
formation (tow), can you consistently hit your landing mark without adding
power (you are a glider now). To do it in a week you will be flying many
times every day, and when you are not flying you better have your nose in a
book.

There is some place closer, with bunking facilities, go ask them if they
think a "one week to a glider rating" is worth anything. It's just up the
road in Williams.

BT

"Robert M. Gary" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> I'm thinking about getting a glider rating for my BFR this summer. I
> talked with one place in Truckee but was told it would take an entire
> week to do.
> Are there any places to do this that specalize in BFRs such that you
> can fly much more per day in order to be done in a few intense days? I
> just can't justify being away for an entire week for a BFR.
> -Robert
>

[BTIZ]

Cross posted to rec av soaring
"BTIZ" > wrote in message
news:UvvOf.622$ld2.229@fed1read11...
> But you were not talking about getting a BFR, you were talking about
> getting an Additional Rating instead of a BFR.
>
> Look up FAR61.109 and see what is required for the add on rating. A week
> is in your words, "a few intense days", plus factor wind/weather problems
> / delays.
>
> Many people can do it in a week, many active pilots cannot. Can you fly
> formation (tow), can you consistently hit your landing mark without adding
> power (you are a glider now). To do it in a week you will be flying many
> times every day, and when you are not flying you better have your nose in
> a book.
>
> There is some place closer, with bunking facilities, go ask them if they
> think a "one week to a glider rating" is worth anything. It's just up the
> road in Williams.
>
> BT
>
> "Robert M. Gary" > wrote in message
> ups.com...
>> I'm thinking about getting a glider rating for my BFR this summer. I
>> talked with one place in Truckee but was told it would take an entire
>> week to do.
>> Are there any places to do this that specalize in BFRs such that you
>> can fly much more per day in order to be done in a few intense days? I
>> just can't justify being away for an entire week for a BFR.
>> -Robert
>>
>
>

[Bob Moore]

"Robert M. Gary" > wrote

> I'm thinking about getting a glider rating for my BFR this summer. I
> talked with one place in Truckee but was told it would take an entire
> week to do.
> Are there any places to do this that specalize in BFRs such that you
> can fly much more per day in order to be done in a few intense days? I
> just can't justify being away for an entire week for a BFR.
> -Robert

I'm thinking about getting an additional rating (glider) under
61.62 in lieu of a Flight Review under 61.65..........

Are there any flight schools that specialize in intensive glider
training, I just can't justify being away for an entire week for
an additional rating.


First....no such thing as a 'BFR' and then you misuse 'BFR' to
mean 'Rating' twice. I have no idea about how long a 'BFR' would
require, but a Flight Review can be done in a single afternoon.

Bob Moore

[150flivver]

When I was stationed in Sacramento there used to be some glider
operations around Vacaville towards San Francisco right off I-80.

[Jose]

> Unless I'm missunderstanding you, you seem to claim
> that waiting around on the ground will make me a better glider pilot
> than actually flying.

Time on the ground is important - it is during that time that the
lessons learned in the air sink in. This is true for all flying.

Jose
--
Money: what you need when you run out of brains.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[[email protected]]

Jose > wrote:
> > Unless I'm missunderstanding you, you seem to claim
> > that waiting around on the ground will make me a better glider pilot
> > than actually flying.
>
> Time on the ground is important - it is during that time that the
> lessons learned in the air sink in. This is true for all flying.

Speaking of ''sinking in'' ... with gliders, unless there is lift, you
don't always have time to get lots of verbal instruction in-flight like
you can in powered aircraft. Much of the instruction, analyzing,
explanation takes place on the ground so that you can make use of every
minute of available flight time after releasing from the tow; depending
on the conditions and availability/lack of lift, that may only be a few
minutes.

[BTIZ]

If you want to learn what happened in the air, or with the air, you need the
book work.

Most people depending on the "aviator skills" can complete the required
training in the week. Many pilots do not possess the level of aviator skills
that they had when they completed their last rating and need to be built
back up to that level. There are articles in recent soaring magazines to
attest to this fact, they completed their "simple add on rating in a week",
but they spent more time on the ground and in the books then they "needed"
in the air.

As a CFIG I have flown with many different levels of pilot qualification in
hours and ratings. Surprisingly, but maybe not so surprisingly, I have found
that the 14 year old kid that has never touched MS FlightSim does better at
aircraft control than the 2000hr fighter jet jock that has no idea what his
feet are for. Or that "accomplished" Comm ASEL AMSEL ASES IFR pilot that
always talks about his accomplishments in the air (ratings in his pocket),
but cannot fly a simple glider with out the nose hunting left and right in
straight and level flight, even on tow. He's always one half of the sine
wave behind the airplane. And this guy expects to be able to land a Grob on
his fist flight or accomplish an add on rating in a week? Don't think so.

I did not mean to imply the "waiting on the ground". I simply stated that
you would be flying at every opportunity and when you are not flying you had
best be in the books. Can you build and understand a Skew-T diagram fro raw
data as it relates to soaring conditions? Can you look at a 24-36hr prog
chart and forecast the potential soaring conditions for the next 2 days? Do
you really understand the mechanics of thermal generation, wind effects on
the thermals, inversion, or ridge, slope or wave lift? Rotor's do kill.

BT

"Robert M. Gary" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Its odd that you seem to associate the quality of the rating with the
> number of days it takes rather than the number of hours you get to fly.
> I'm looking for something where I spend more time in the air and less
> time on the ground. Unless I'm missunderstanding you, you seem to claim
> that waiting around on the ground will make me a better glider pilot
> than actually flying.
>
> -Robert
>

[BTIZ]

You used the term "BFR" and I echoed it, my bad to use terms you seem to
understand and not correct you.

Yes, completing an additional pilots rating takes the place of a Flight
Review as required by 61.56.
A flight review can be completed with one hour of ground school and one hour
of flight as a minimum.
An additional rating is not so easily accomplished. Are you ready for an
average 2 hour oral exam with an FAA DPE on your aviation knowledge in the
FARS, weather and AIM?

BT

"Robert M. Gary" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> >But you were not talking about getting a BFR, you were talking about
> >getting
>> an Additional Rating instead of a BFR.
>
> I think that is what I said "Glider RATING near Sacramento", "I'm
> thinking about getting a glider RATING for my BFR this summer". There
> is no FAA definition of the term "BFR" but most consider a BFR to be
> the currency requirements of 61.56 of which an additional checkride OR
> a CFI signature equally qualifies.
>
> -Robert
>

[BTIZ]

I believe that is the group now at Williams.
BT

"150flivver" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> When I was stationed in Sacramento there used to be some glider
> operations around Vacaville towards San Francisco right off I-80.
>

[BTIZ]

There is no 61.62 in my book maybe you mean 61.63(b)?
Requirements needed for the "additional glider rating" to meet 61.63 are
listed in
61.109(f)(2) and 61.107(b)(6).

Yes it says you only need 3 hours and 10 solo flights for the private level.
And many people who do the one week course may find they needed more hours
but it is still can be accomplished in a week.
BT

"Bob Moore" > wrote in message
. 122...
> "Robert M. Gary" > wrote
>
>> I'm thinking about getting a glider rating for my BFR this summer. I
>> talked with one place in Truckee but was told it would take an entire
>> week to do.
>> Are there any places to do this that specalize in BFRs such that you
>> can fly much more per day in order to be done in a few intense days? I
>> just can't justify being away for an entire week for a BFR.
>> -Robert
>
> I'm thinking about getting an additional rating (glider) under
> 61.62 in lieu of a Flight Review under 61.65..........
>
> Are there any flight schools that specialize in intensive glider
> training, I just can't justify being away for an entire week for
> an additional rating.
>
>
> First....no such thing as a 'BFR' and then you misuse 'BFR' to
> mean 'Rating' twice. I have no idea about how long a 'BFR' would
> require, but a Flight Review can be done in a single afternoon.
>
> Bob Moore

[BTIZ]

sorry, I meant to add that there are schools for the "one week add on",
there are two near Phoenix that specialize. www.ssa.org and clink on Where
to Fly
BT

"Bob Moore" > wrote in message
. 122...
> "Robert M. Gary" > wrote
>
>> I'm thinking about getting a glider rating for my BFR this summer. I
>> talked with one place in Truckee but was told it would take an entire
>> week to do.
>> Are there any places to do this that specalize in BFRs such that you
>> can fly much more per day in order to be done in a few intense days? I
>> just can't justify being away for an entire week for a BFR.
>> -Robert
>
> I'm thinking about getting an additional rating (glider) under
> 61.62 in lieu of a Flight Review under 61.65..........
>
> Are there any flight schools that specialize in intensive glider
> training, I just can't justify being away for an entire week for
> an additional rating.
>
>
> First....no such thing as a 'BFR' and then you misuse 'BFR' to
> mean 'Rating' twice. I have no idea about how long a 'BFR' would
> require, but a Flight Review can be done in a single afternoon.
>
> Bob Moore

[Bob Fry]

>>>>> "RG" == Robert M Gary > writes:

RG> I'm thinking about getting a glider rating for my BFR this
RG> summer. I talked with one place in Truckee but was told it
RG> would take an entire week to do. Are there any places to do
RG> this that specalize in BFRs such that you can fly much more
RG> per day in order to be done in a few intense days? I just
RG> can't justify being away for an entire week for a BFR.

I won't answer your question, rather suggest maybe you should look at
this another way. Would you justify a week away for a great vacation?
That's the way to see the Truckee glider rating: a week or so to do
something completely absorbing and different than your normal
activities, cleanse out all the old cobwebs and put some new things in
there. It won't be relaxing but will be exhilerating, and what better
locale than Truckee. I got a glider ride there some years ago and
can't imagine better scenery.

[Bob Moore]

"BTIZ" > wrote

> There is no 61.62 in my book maybe you mean 61.63(b)?

Yep!

Bob

[BTIZ]

"RST Engineering"
no you don't need to know a skew-T diagram for
> private, and marginally for commercial. For CFI, probably. 36 hour
> progs? Certainly you jest.

I do believe that these questions are on the private glider written exam and
can be reviewed by the DPE during the oral portion if he so desires. For
the benefit of the non soaring types, a review of Area I Task B of the
Private PTS:
-Exhibits knowledge of the elements related to weather information from
various sources with emphasis on, use of weather reports, charts and
forecasts, significant weather prognostics.
-Exhibits knowledge of the relationship of the following factors on the
lifting process, pressure and temperature lapse rates, atmospheric
instability, thermal index and thermal production, cloud formation and
identification, frontal weather and other lifting sources.

Looks like a lot of stuff in there can be gleaned from a Skew-T and Prog
charts.... mmmm
Ever go to a check ride without a good soaring forecast?

BT

[Seth Masia]

Also check out Minden, NV.

I soloed in gliders before going on to the power license, and it was great
training. The reason it takes more than a couple of days is that you don't
do T&G in a glider: You do a formation flight, boxing the wake; then you
do a precision forced landing. Then you wait on the ground until you can
hook up to the tow plane again and repeat. If you're lucky you could get in
three or four landings a day on a busy weekend. You might get in six or
eight on a quiet weekday with good weather. Best bet is to take this
seriously: knock off work for a week and park an RV at the airport.

The 10-flight mininum is, like most minimums, a crock. You may make a couple
of dozen flights before you're ready to face an examiner.

Seth



"BTIZ" > wrote in message
news:cfJOf.746$ld2.194@fed1read11...
>
> "RST Engineering"
> no you don't need to know a skew-T diagram for
>> private, and marginally for commercial. For CFI, probably. 36 hour
>> progs? Certainly you jest.
>
> I do believe that these questions are on the private glider written exam
> and can be reviewed by the DPE during the oral portion if he so desires.
> For the benefit of the non soaring types, a review of Area I Task B of the
> Private PTS:
> -Exhibits knowledge of the elements related to weather information from
> various sources with emphasis on, use of weather reports, charts and
> forecasts, significant weather prognostics.
> -Exhibits knowledge of the relationship of the following factors on the
> lifting process, pressure and temperature lapse rates, atmospheric
> instability, thermal index and thermal production, cloud formation and
> identification, frontal weather and other lifting sources.
>
> Looks like a lot of stuff in there can be gleaned from a Skew-T and Prog
> charts.... mmmm
> Ever go to a check ride without a good soaring forecast?
>
> BT
>

[Michael]

> I'm thinking about getting a glider rating for my BFR this summer. I
> talked with one place in Truckee but was told it would take an entire
> week to do.

That's an indication that they are not particularly well organized,
which is far from rare in the glider world. Realistically, if you want
an add-on at the private level, that's about a 5 hour (flight time)
process (about 20-25 total flights including 10 solo, many of them very
short duration) and everything you need to know in terms of ground work
you can do in advance. If you were local to me, we would bang it out
in a weekend. Those are fairly generous estimates assuming a 400 hour
pilot without tailwheel experience, too - it can be done faster.
People have.

Despite the protestations of many glider pilots, a training glider like
the Grob 103 or Blanik L13 or L23 (not to mention the slug that is the
Schweitzer 2-33) is MUCH easier to fly and more docile than even the
simplest and most docile of powered trainers. Learning to fly a glider
when you are already proficient at flying a simple airplane is just not
very hard. A reasonably proficient and current power pilot can easily
solo in half a dozen flights of 15-20 minutes each. Some do it in half
that. At glider clubs it often takes twice that long (or more) due to
a variety of factors - lessons not closely spaced, no continuity of
instruction or aircraft (imagine changing instructors every two flights
and aircraft half that often), no organization to the training, etc.

Add ten solo flights (of which as many as you like could be 5 minute
pattern tows) and a few more flights to brush up for the checkride, and
you are done.

At that point, you can safely take off, land, perform basic airwork
maneuvers, and soar in the local area. Soaring cross country will
require more skill and knowledge, but at your experience level you can
learn that on your own if you wish. Dual XC instruction in a glider is
generally not available most places anyway - most people learn on their
own. You read Reichmann, you talk to some experienced soaring pilots,
and you go do it. At most operations, you will need to buy your own
glider to go XC.

Flying a glider safely is something a proficient power pilot can learn
to do in a weekend. Becoming good at flying XC in one takes a
lifetime.

Michael

[BTIZ]

"Michael" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>> I'm thinking about getting a glider rating for my BFR this summer. I
>> talked with one place in Truckee but was told it would take an entire
>> week to do.
>
> That's an indication that they are not particularly well organized,
> which is far from rare in the glider world. Realistically, if you want
> an add-on at the private level, that's about a 5 hour (flight time)
> process (about 20-25 total flights including 10 solo, many of them very
> short duration) and everything you need to know in terms of ground work
> you can do in advance. If you were local to me, we would bang it out
> in a weekend. Those are fairly generous estimates assuming a 400 hour
> pilot without tailwheel experience, too - it can be done faster.
> People have.
>
> Despite the protestations of many glider pilots, a training glider like
> the Grob 103 or Blanik L13 or L23 (not to mention the slug that is the
> Schweitzer 2-33) is MUCH easier to fly and more docile than even the
> simplest and most docile of powered trainers. Learning to fly a glider
> when you are already proficient at flying a simple airplane is just not
> very hard. A reasonably proficient and current power pilot can easily
> solo in half a dozen flights of 15-20 minutes each. Some do it in half
> that. At glider clubs it often takes twice that long (or more) due to
> a variety of factors - lessons not closely spaced, no continuity of
> instruction or aircraft (imagine changing instructors every two flights
> and aircraft half that often), no organization to the training, etc.
>
> Add ten solo flights (of which as many as you like could be 5 minute
> pattern tows) and a few more flights to brush up for the checkride, and
> you are done.
>
> At that point, you can safely take off, land, perform basic airwork
> maneuvers, and soar in the local area. Soaring cross country will
> require more skill and knowledge, but at your experience level you can
> learn that on your own if you wish. Dual XC instruction in a glider is
> generally not available most places anyway - most people learn on their
> own. You read Reichmann, you talk to some experienced soaring pilots,
> and you go do it. At most operations, you will need to buy your own
> glider to go XC.
>
> Flying a glider safely is something a proficient power pilot can learn
> to do in a weekend. Becoming good at flying XC in one takes a
> lifetime.
>
> Michael
>

All this makes lots of sense.. sure.. you can do it in a weekend, if you are
prepared academically ahead of time as you mentioned. So.. one guy flies
about 5 hours, 20-25 flights in one weekend at a local glider club and takes
all the time of one instructor, of which there are only two available. And
when told it is a club operation, he chooses not to join the club and gets
****ed when the club does not service him.

NO ONE ELSE in the club or a small commercial operation may get a chance to
fly. This one guy has hogged the training aircraft and instructors time...
plus those 10 pattern tows takes up all the time of the runway and tow plane
for at least an hour.

At a commercial operation, much the same thing can happen. There are 5
students trying to do the same thing in a weeks time, and each demanding
time of one or two instructors.

For a commercial operation to tell someone to allow a week makes plenty of
sense. Don't promise a day or two, state "you need a week", and then if he
gets done early the commercial operation is a hero. The commercial operation
has no idea how proficient this guy is by talking on the phone, you need to
see him fly first. Plus you'll never know what will happen with weather, tow
plane, pilots or glider equipment that could delay the training.

I've told people "the lesson starts at 9am", have the preflight done and the
glider on the line, for post solo students. I get there at 0830 to supervise
plus the other morning rituals, and the student does not even show until
well after 9am to start digging out the glider. Sorry, another unannounced
student was there waiting, you are now number 2 in the training cycle today,
first come, first served.

BT

[Michael]

> For a commercial operation to tell someone to allow a week makes plenty of
> sense. Don't promise a day or two, state "you need a week", and then if he
> gets done early the commercial operation is a hero.

No, it means the commercial operation never gets to see him.

Honestly, everything you say makes sense to me too. If you're dealing
with a glider club or a commercial operation of limited resources, it
won't happen. I know a couple of commercial operations that could
accomodate him, but of course they are local to me, thus not in
California. How can they accomodate him? By making sure the schedule
for one training glider is clear for the weekend, the same way a power
school would rent a plane out for a weekend trip, and by making sure
one instructor is available to spend the weekend with him. I once did
something similar for a pilot who wanted to add his commercial glider
and CFIG (he already had power CFI and a foreign private glider ticket)
and it was not a problem - we banged it out in two days of flying. It
meant making arrangements in advance, that's all.

I don't doubt that there are instructors like me in California who only
instruct part time but can clear down one weekend with some advance
notice, nor do I doubt that there are commercial operations that have
the capability to reserve one glider for a weekend, again with some
advance notice. The trick is finding them.

Michael

[Robert M. Gary]

Michael,
That is how my sea rating went. I reserved two days with the CFI and
airplane. No one else was waiting and I scheduled and sent in a deposit
30 days ahead of time.

-Robert