Have You Given a Stranger a Ride?

[Jay Honeck]

In another thread the "folks by the fence" -- airport spectators --
have been discussed, and a couple of us have stated that we've always
wanted to shut down and ask if anyone wanted to go for a ride.

In my opinion, this single act of kindness would absolutely make
someone's day, and could possibly change their life. And no other act
could help improve the image of general aviation more.

Yet, I've never done it, for a myriad of reasons -- and I don't know
anyone who has.

Have you? If not, why not?
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Skyhawk544]

I have thought of doing this myself many times, but never have. One of
the problems these days, or at least at my field there there is no
"folks by the fence" anymore. There all gone. I believe this has
happened since the flying activities has really slowed down, slowed
down to almost nothing. I guess it's because of the fuel prices, I know
that has slowed my flying down a lot.

[[email protected]]

I have given a stranger a ride. Each year here in Michigan we have the
Michigan Air Tour(http://s127415377.onlinehome.us/) which is in the
fall and runs from Friday to Sunday stopping at different airports in
Michigan. It is an effort to support GA in Michigan and is fun for all
involved. 2 years ago I was asked to give a ride back to YIP with
someone that I didn't know. I did give her a ride, but was somewhat
reluctant. She was not a pilot and on the trip back I kept her busy
reading the sectional. We arrived without any problems and she even
took the time to send me a thank you note.

Although my experience was good, I have known others to be nightmares.
I know pilots that will not give someone they don't know a ride.
Afraid of getting sued I guess. YMMV.

Regards,
Jerry

[Steve Bukosky]

On 5 Mar 2006 08:23:32 -0800, "Jay Honeck" > wrote:

>Have you? If not, why not?

I've given lots of rides but not to total strangers. Once when working
at MWC, I was going to take a night flight around Milwaukee. There
were a couple kids always hanging around the airport so I asked them
to jump in the Skyhawk. It was their first night flight. Later one of
them went on to be a Captain. One big time person that is overlooked
is the pilot who has lost their medical or can no longer afford to
fly!

When I was working the line at O2C, a friend had heart bypass surgery
and sold his Aeronca but still came to the airport for coffee and
such. One day he mentioned to me that it hurts that none of the other
regulars that own or rent and have a seat available don't come up and
offer to have him tag along.

I'm in a similar situation now. It is pretty hard being down here and
always looking up there.

[Nathan Young]

On 5 Mar 2006 08:23:32 -0800, "Jay Honeck" > wrote:

>In another thread the "folks by the fence" -- airport spectators --
>have been discussed, and a couple of us have stated that we've always
>wanted to shut down and ask if anyone wanted to go for a ride.
>
>In my opinion, this single act of kindness would absolutely make
>someone's day, and could possibly change their life. And no other act
>could help improve the image of general aviation more.
>
>Yet, I've never done it, for a myriad of reasons -- and I don't know
>anyone who has.
>
>Have you? If not, why not?

Nope - never, and probably will not. Liability.
Sounds cold, but one has to think this way these days...

[[email protected]]

I hate to agree but I think you are right. You just don't know what a
person's intentions are these days. My wife, who is a corporate
executive, used to mentor underprivileged children and found it very
satisfying. Eventually her company lawyers told her it had to stop.
Seems that these kids needed mentoring because their parents were
usually losers and all they had to do was say that their kid said that
the (mentor) "touched" them to hit a jackpot. (aka Michael Jackson;
"you pay me X amount and I won't sue). Even if completely exonerated
your life is ruined and you can't even counter sue because they don't
have anything.
I could see taking some stranger for a ride and finding out later that
they were irreversibly "traumatized" or something. Am I being too
paranoid here or what?

Jim

[Bob Fry]

>>>>> "jfleisc" == jfleisc > writes:
jfleisc> Am I being
jfleisc> too paranoid here or what?

Yes.

First, I have given two rides to complete strangers. One was a French
fellow who had gone to graduate school here (UC Davis) a few years
before and almost completed his PP-ASEL at that time. He had airline
tix for his family that involved flying around the world and he
stopped by for a few days, visiting the airport on his bicycle and I
happened to be there. I gave him a ride later that day...he was quite
appreciative and said if I ever visited France again we could stay at
his house. Not a bad trade for a simple 45 minute flight.

The other fellow was a local from a small town on the Sacramento
River. He too rode up on his bicycle (Davis is big on bicycles) and
showed an interest in my airplane, an Aircoupe. On a whim we went for
a 30 minute flight over his house, etc. He had never been in a small
plane. He was so grateful he came by my house a week or two later and
delivered some veggies from his garden.

I've also flown over 50 kids in Young Eagles (not all in the
Coupe). Last week I flew the son of a friend for a brief night
flight.

In all of these there's a tiny but non-nil possibility of something
going awry, an accident or accusation or whatever. I'm aware of it,
but I think the chances of something bad happening are overblown. YE
didn't have any fatalities until recently, after more than 1 million
kids flown. The satisfaction far outweighs the risk, and I'm too
ornery to let some remote or imagined lawsuit deter me. These flights
aren't altruistic or for a noble cause; I do them for me.

I've posted this before, but repeat it here to explain the joy that
await you and your passenger with these flights.

OF> I have had many other passengers -- some very shy, others more
OF> adventurous, but James stands out.

I still remember a 9- or 10-year old girl I gave a ride a couple of
years ago.

It was a big event, lots of kids and pilots. I landed at dawn to see
hot air balloons launch, then waited until 9:00 or so for the YE fun
to start. At the end of the day I flew 9 kids in the Aircoupe so
that makes for a long day.

The last flight was this girl who when walking out to the plane asked,
"Can we go fast?" I knew this would be special.

"Sure,", says I, "we can go fast. Maybe a hundred miles an hour!"

"Faster than a motorcyle?" she asked. "Yep, that's faster than a
motorcyle." But then I wondered if it would be...her dad looked kinda
adventerous.

She had seen the Coupe during the day and knew the canopy slid open
and closed. As soon as we got in and started to taxi she wanted to
fly with the canopy open.

"Well, we'll see," I said. I was reluctant. The noise and wind could
easily scare a young person. I for sure wouldn't do it on takeoff.

Away we went, canopy closed. I pointed out a few places...every
minute or two came the question: "Can we open the canopy?"

Time to return, and we're headed back to the airport. Finally I undo
the latches and crack it open a couple of inches...that ought to keep
her happy. I'm on downwind keying the push-to-talk, about to announce
my position to the tower...when finally she can't stand it any more
and screams, "ALL THE WAY OPEN!!"

Aye, I got that message. Left hand on the yoke still holding the
transmit open, with the right hand I reach up and jerk back the
canopy, ALL THE WAY OPEN.

As we pass the numbers and I pull back the throttle, I look over.
She's got a grin a mile wide. A real firecracker, that one. We ride
it around base and down final, noise and wind swirling around. Pull
back to idle half-way down final and the prop gives that funny sighing
sound and for an instant you can see it unwind...always gives me a
chill 'cause I daydream for a moment I'm flying a turbine. A chirp of
tires and we've landed, slowing down, noise and wind gone now, but a
ride we'll both remember for a long, long time.

[Brad]

I have in the past, although it was before I had any assets to speak
of. Additionally, this was a relatively rural airport, where I
beleived at the time the "sue for fun and profit" game hadn't yet
begun. I will say that the look on the kid & fathers' faces when I
shut down the engine, gestured them over for a ride were worth every
dime of the .5hrs of hobbs time I spent. After all, that was all the
inspiration I needed to begin flying in the first place.

[Todd W. Deckard]

I used to fly out of a small residential airpark in Wisconsin. One
beautiful fall evening, on turn to final I spotted the kids riding their
bikes on the runway. On spotting me, one of the tigers jumped off his bike
as they all scrambled away, leaving it on the runway.
It didn't quite divide the strip in two and I had plenty left in the
denominator to land on -- but I made sure to fetch the offending bicycle.
Eventually the fellow came up to claim it and I got to give the airport
safety lecture over the intercome while he sat on the left seat and wore a
headset.

I asked if he had ever ridden in a plane and suddenly kids sprang out of
everywhere (his cohorts were clearly spying out the whole event to
see how much trouble he was in). I announced that any kid who could
produce an aquiescing parent would get one official EAA "Young Eagles"
flight. The airpark was a close part of the community so it was not too
outlandish (although I did have one mom inspect my logbook).

It was a really cool few laps around the pattern. Nobody barfed.

Once when I was very young, I followed a hot air balloon. At time time, I
am sure I followed it for ten miles, but I am sure
we only spanned a few soybean fields. The balloon landed, and the pilot
offered me a ride. We threw my bike in the chase truck
and off we went. I was terrified that we would be carried miles and miles
from home and I would certainly "get in trouble."
I refused the ride home and blasted off on my bike after the landing. My
parents never found out till many years
later into adulthood. Man, you would never think of something like that
being acceptable today, for the child or the pilot!

Is anyone there an insurance agent? How do conventional umbrella policies
accomidate the risk? There was a previous post by someone
who had given up all of flying becuase he could not carry sufficient
liability in the airplane and it somehow voided his umbrella. I realize
this
may be policy vendor dependant, but what are the general rules?

Todd

[Jay Honeck]

> I'm in a similar situation now. It is pretty hard being down here and
> always looking up there.

Sorry to hear it, Steve. Mind telling us what happened to curtail your
flying? Cost of gas? Medical issue?

C'mon to Iowa -- we'll go strafe a burger joint somewhere!

:-)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Gene Seibel]

Not complete strangers. Some people my Dad knew but I didn't. I would
if someone showed genuine interest.

It used to frustrate me when people would tell me to give them a call
when I was going flying, but then when I did they were too busy to go.
I don't believe them anymore.
--
Gene Seibel
Gene & Sue's Aeroplanes - http://pad39a.com/gene/planes.html
Because we fly, we envy no one.

[J. Severyn]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>>
> Have you? If not, why not?
> --
> Jay Honeck

Yes I have. I was just joy-riding one day and stopped at Boonville, Ca.
(D83). I struck up a conversation with a guy watching me tie down my plane.
After a while I asked if he wanted to go up for a short ride. He did. So
we flew west over to the coastline and back to D83. After we landed he
thanked me and mentioned he was on active duty and home to see his parents
for a few days.

I've not done that since....and it was probably 20 years ago. Thanks for
the reminder Jay. I should do that again a little more often.

John Severyn
KLVK

[Marty Shapiro]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in
oups.com:

> In another thread the "folks by the fence" -- airport spectators --
> have been discussed, and a couple of us have stated that we've always
> wanted to shut down and ask if anyone wanted to go for a ride.
>
> In my opinion, this single act of kindness would absolutely make
> someone's day, and could possibly change their life. And no other act
> could help improve the image of general aviation more.
>
> Yet, I've never done it, for a myriad of reasons -- and I don't know
> anyone who has.
>
> Have you? If not, why not?
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"
>

If Angel Flight counts, then I've had a stranger on board on all but
two that I did. (One was a second filgt with someone I had taken on the
outgoing mission a week earlier and one was cargo only.)

--
Marty Shapiro
Silicon Rallye Inc.

(remove SPAMNOT to email me)

[Tom McQuinn]

Todd W. Deckard wrote:

> Is anyone there an insurance agent? How do conventional umbrella policies
> accomidate the risk? There was a previous post by someone
> who had given up all of flying becuase he could not carry sufficient
> liability in the airplane and it somehow voided his umbrella. I realize
> this
> may be policy vendor dependant, but what are the general rules?
>
> Todd
>
>

I'm not an agent but I can tell you that my umbrella policy does not
cover general aviation. I don't have the verbiage handy but it leaves
little room for doubt. I do have a smooth policy on my Archer.

Tom

[Jack Allison]

Good reminder Steve. I wish our airport had a coffee shop/diner or
something where folks could hang out. I'd love the chance to take some
folks flying who fall into this category.


--
Jack Allison
PP-ASEL-Instrument Airplane
Arrow N2104T

"When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the Earth
with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, and there
you will always long to return"
- Leonardo Da Vinci

(Remove the obvious from address to reply via e-mail)

[Jack Allison]

Not yet as the opportunity hasn't presented itself at an opportune time.
Once, a young guy who works at the local maintenance shop was cruising
through the hangars and stopped to chat. He's a student and asked lots
of questions about our plane and whether we could go flying sometime.
I'd consider it if I'd known him better or had a chance to check with
the maintenance shop to verify that the guy was legitimate.

The closest to seeing "folks at the fence" was when I was down at my
brother's home airport. There's a fence close to the runup area and I
remember taxiing up and there was a boy and his Dad there watching. I
waved, they waved back...and that was about it.

--
Jack Allison
PP-ASEL-Instrument Airplane
Arrow N2104T

"When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the Earth
with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, and there
you will always long to return"
- Leonardo Da Vinci

(Remove the obvious from address to reply via e-mail)

[Saville]

Jay Honeck wrote:

> In another thread the "folks by the fence" -- airport spectators --
> have been discussed, and a couple of us have stated that we've always
> wanted to shut down and ask if anyone wanted to go for a ride.
>
> In my opinion, this single act of kindness would absolutely make
> someone's day, and could possibly change their life. And no other act
> could help improve the image of general aviation more.
>
> Yet, I've never done it, for a myriad of reasons -- and I don't know
> anyone who has.
>
> Have you? If not, why not?
> --

Don't see people by the fence these days. not at the Flight Center where I
do most of my flying, nor Hanscom where I'm taking aerobatics, nor even at
Hampton - small grass strip where I got my tailwheel endorsement in a J3.

If there were people watching - if I saw that longing look - I'd be sorely
tempted. I can recall being a plane-hungry kid myself dying to be asked if
I wanted a ride. And so I know what it would mean to some people if they
had the chance.

But then would I make the offer?

There's that litigiousness....

[Montblack]

("Jack Allison" wrote)
> Good reminder Steve. I wish our airport had a coffee shop/diner or
> something where folks could hang out. I'd love the chance to take some
> folks flying who fall into this category.

> PP-ASEL-Instrument Airplane


Here's a little coffee shop/diner for you to check out. :-)

http://www.pilotsharetheride.com/


Montblack

[[email protected]]

They have to have a current medical, but do NOT have to be current on
their biennial.

[Mortimer Schnerd, RN]

wrote:
> They have to have a current medical, but do NOT have to be current on
> their biennial.


Who does? The strangers?

[pittss1c]

I give rides to strangers all the time...
More so to bald eagles/ gray eagles (what ever you call them).
I figure it this way... I think of all the elevated risks I take for my
enjoyment of flight. It would be sad if I were incapable of stomaching
the "risk" associated with taking a passenger.

The more people in my local community that enjoy aviation the better...
Maybe it isn't enough to make a difference, but I am willing to give it
a shot.

Mike


Jay Honeck wrote:
> In another thread the "folks by the fence" -- airport spectators --
> have been discussed, and a couple of us have stated that we've always
> wanted to shut down and ask if anyone wanted to go for a ride.
>
> In my opinion, this single act of kindness would absolutely make
> someone's day, and could possibly change their life. And no other act
> could help improve the image of general aviation more.
>
> Yet, I've never done it, for a myriad of reasons -- and I don't know
> anyone who has.
>
> Have you? If not, why not?
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"
>

[Jose]

> I give rides to strangers all the time...

How do you avoid being seen by the FAA as "holding out"?

Jose
--
Money: what you need when you run out of brains.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Peter Duniho]

> wrote in message
oups.com...
> They have to have a current medical, but do NOT have to be current on
> their biennial.


Huh?

Both are requirements for acting as PIC. If you need one, you need the
other.

As far as the question of a pilot without a valid medical acting as safety
pilot, the answer is yes, they may.

The safety pilot need only hold the appropriate category and class rating
for the aircraft. There is no requirement for the safety pilot to be
qualified to act as PIC, and they need neither a current medical nor the
recent flight experience (including the 24-month check) required for acting
as PIC.

Pete

[Peter Duniho]

"Jose" > wrote in message
...
>> I give rides to strangers all the time...
>
> How do you avoid being seen by the FAA as "holding out"?

He didn't say anything about charging the people. Assuming he doesn't
(seems like a safe assumption), that issue is completely irrelevant.

Pete

[Dave Stadt]

"Jose" > wrote in message
...
>> I give rides to strangers all the time...
>
> How do you avoid being seen by the FAA as "holding out"?
>
> Jose
> --
> Money: what you need when you run out of brains.
> for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

Simple, he is not "holding out" as defined by the FAA.

[Jose]

> He didn't say anything about charging the people. Assuming he doesn't
> (seems like a safe assumption), that issue is completely irrelevant.

No, that's not true at all.

There are no FAA regs whose reasonable English interpretation would
forbid carrying passengers for free, but I have spoken with FAA
representatives who state that, by their interpretation of the rules,
offering to take people up, and becoming known for doing so, consititues
a commercial operation whether money is trasnferred or not. This
includes (the example I gave them) announcing at dinner at the college
dorm that you just got your license... er... certificate, and are
willing to take any students up for rides.

How is "holding out" defined by the FAA, and where is it reliably written?

Jose
--
Money: what you need when you run out of brains.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Peter Duniho]

"Jose" > wrote in message
m...
>> He didn't say anything about charging the people. Assuming he doesn't
>> (seems like a safe assumption), that issue is completely irrelevant.
>
> No, that's not true at all.

Yes, it is true at all.

> There are no FAA regs whose reasonable English interpretation would forbid
> carrying passengers for free, but I have spoken with FAA representatives
> who state that, by their interpretation of the rules, offering to take
> people up, and becoming known for doing so, consititues a commercial
> operation whether money is trasnferred or not.

Unfortunately for those representatives, the FAA regulations do not support
their view.

It *is* unfortunate that there are FAA employees who don't even understand
the rules they are supposed to implement. But it does happen.

A commercial operation requires there to be *some* form of compensation.
That is the whole point of the use of the word "compensation" in the
restrictions on the Private Pilot certificate. The FAA has used a very
broad interpretation of the word, even considering flight time to be
compensation. However, I have never heard of them considering a pilot to be
compensated by the mere presence of a passenger.

> How is "holding out" defined by the FAA, and where is it reliably written?

Now *that* is a pretty good question. As it happens, the FAA has correctly
found that the more ambiguous a regulation is, the easier it is to use it
against someone. I have found very little in the way of clear, concise
explanation of the concept of "holding out", as well as what constitutes a
commercial operation for the purpose of understanding the various
requirements (pilot qualifications, as well as the regulations governing
commercial operations).

It seems that the most information is available through the precedents of
how the FAA has decided prior cases, which is a time-consuming and
frustrating way to learn the regulations. But that's pretty much what you
have to do with this issue.

And if you do, you'll find that the FAA has never cited a pilot for
violating the pilot qualification requirements or the flight operation
requirements for simply carrying a passenger who provided no compensation to
the pilot or anyone else. When a violating occurs, there's always some
compensation somewhere to someone, in the form of actual money or barter.

Pete

[B A R R Y]

Peter Duniho wrote
>
> And if you do, you'll find that the FAA has never cited a pilot for
> violating the pilot qualification requirements or the flight operation
> requirements for simply carrying a passenger who provided no compensation to
> the pilot or anyone else. When a violating occurs, there's always some
> compensation somewhere to someone, in the form of actual money or barter.
>


The way I understand it, a Private Pilot must pay at least his or her
share of the expenses. There is no rule that prevents the pilot from
paying ALL of the expenses, and I've never heard of a rule that limits
the number of passengers a private pilot can carry in a time period,
provided the pro-rata rule is met.

As far as I understand it, and if I pay my share (or more), I can carry
cost-sharing passengers on EVERY flight, if I so choose.

Barry

[Ken Hornstein]

In article . com>,
Jay Honeck > wrote:
>In another thread the "folks by the fence" -- airport spectators --
>have been discussed, and a couple of us have stated that we've always
>wanted to shut down and ask if anyone wanted to go for a ride.
>
>In my opinion, this single act of kindness would absolutely make
>someone's day, and could possibly change their life. And no other act
>could help improve the image of general aviation more.
>
>Yet, I've never done it, for a myriad of reasons -- and I don't know
>anyone who has.
>
>Have you? If not, why not?

I made the offer once; the person declined.

Looking back on it, it was kind of a unusual situation. I was at the
airport doing preflight, when a woman in her early 30's showed up with
two children in tow (it was a while ago, but I think the two children
were around 5-8 years old - but I am not a good judge of children's
ages). I was the only person on the flight line at the time, and she
came up and said that the children were always interested in planes,
and could they look at the inside of one?

Of course, I replied, "sure!". I continued my flight while the two
kids climbed over the inside of the airplane (yes, I did double-check
_everything_ after they were gone). They had a grand old time.

While I was continuing the preflight, I told the woman that I'd be glad
to take her and the two kids up for a quick ride if she was willing.
She said that the one kid's father would freak out if he knew that his
child was ever in a plane (I vaguely remember that one was her child
and one was the child of a friend that she was watching, but I'm not
sure of that now and she never elaborated on the relationship).

Kinda sad, when you think about it ... but I would guess that kid's
father wouldn't be the only one who wouldn't let their kid go up
in a plane nowadays.

--Ken

[Ross Richardson]

One day while refueling my Skyhawk, I started talking to a gentleman
that was about 75 years old. As we talked, he told me that he learned to
fly from my home airport, but he hasn't been up in ages; other things
got in the way. With 05U all fueled I asked him if he would like to go
for a short hop. We were up about 45 minutes and I let him take the
controls and we just had a blast. You know, I have not seem him again
since then, but he thanked me over and over for taking him up. I would
do something like that again in a heart beat. Isn't that what aviation
is about?

Ross
KSWI

Jay Honeck wrote:

> In another thread the "folks by the fence" -- airport spectators --
> have been discussed, and a couple of us have stated that we've always
> wanted to shut down and ask if anyone wanted to go for a ride.
>
> In my opinion, this single act of kindness would absolutely make
> someone's day, and could possibly change their life. And no other act
> could help improve the image of general aviation more.
>
> Yet, I've never done it, for a myriad of reasons -- and I don't know
> anyone who has.
>
> Have you? If not, why not?
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"
>

[Nigel Peart]

I once took a fellow worker up with me on a para jump flight.
He'd never flown, and coming from an impoverished background, this was
probably the only flight he'd take in a long while.
The reaction during and after the flight , especially watching us all jump,
was worth it's weight in platinum bars.
Thoroughly rewarding !!
Nigel
South Africa





"Ross Richardson" > wrote in message
...
> One day while refueling my Skyhawk, I started talking to a gentleman that
> was about 75 years old. As we talked, he told me that he learned to fly
> from my home airport, but he hasn't been up in ages; other things got in
> the way. With 05U all fueled I asked him if he would like to go for a
> short hop. We were up about 45 minutes and I let him take the controls
> and we just had a blast. You know, I have not seem him again since then,
> but he thanked me over and over for taking him up. I would do something
> like that again in a heart beat. Isn't that what aviation is about?
>
> Ross
> KSWI
>
> Jay Honeck wrote:
>
>> In another thread the "folks by the fence" -- airport spectators --
>> have been discussed, and a couple of us have stated that we've always
>> wanted to shut down and ask if anyone wanted to go for a ride.
>>
>> In my opinion, this single act of kindness would absolutely make
>> someone's day, and could possibly change their life. And no other act
>> could help improve the image of general aviation more.
>>
>> Yet, I've never done it, for a myriad of reasons -- and I don't know
>> anyone who has.
>>
>> Have you? If not, why not?
>> --
>> Jay Honeck
>> Iowa City, IA
>> Pathfinder N56993
>> www.AlexisParkInn.com
>> "Your Aviation Destination"
>>

[Roger]

On 5 Mar 2006 08:23:32 -0800, "Jay Honeck" > wrote:

>In another thread the "folks by the fence" -- airport spectators --
>have been discussed, and a couple of us have stated that we've always
>wanted to shut down and ask if anyone wanted to go for a ride.
>
>In my opinion, this single act of kindness would absolutely make
>someone's day, and could possibly change their life. And no other act
>could help improve the image of general aviation more.
>
>Yet, I've never done it, for a myriad of reasons -- and I don't know
>anyone who has.
>
>Have you? If not, why not?

Enough times I've lost count.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

[Roger]

On 5 Mar 2006 08:36:14 -0800, "Skyhawk544" >
wrote:

>I have thought of doing this myself many times, but never have. One of
>the problems these days, or at least at my field there there is no
>"folks by the fence" anymore. There all gone. I believe this has
>happened since the flying activities has really slowed down, slowed
>down to almost nothing. I guess it's because of the fuel prices, I know
>that has slowed my flying down a lot.

On nice warm days I still see older couples and young families out by
the fence, at the picnic table, or just sitting in their cars watching
although we've had few nice days this winter. They were there last
Fall and I'd expect them to show up within another month or so.

Robins and fence hangers are a sure sign of spring.

As to fuel prices. I guess it depends on what you fly, but fuel is the
cheapest part of flying even with the higher prices.

It's not the price of gas that has cut down on my flying, it's having
to fix something every time I go to the airport. I'm currently
rebuilding the winch I use to pull the Deb up the ramp and into the
hangar. Last week it was the inch and a half of ice on the ramp with
no winch that kept me on the ground. Then there was the day I made
three passes with the snow blower before it quit. It's getting to the
point where I have to fix the stuff I use to fix the stuff so I can go
flying.

The last time I took a fence hanger for a ride was last fall. I
noticed a young family at the picnic table while doing some practice
take offs and landings so I taxied over by the fence, shut down, and
went over to talk with them.

The guy remarked that they usually brought their daughter out to watch
the airplanes at least once every week or two. His wife snickered and
remarked that she though he was just using that as an excuse so he
could come out. He admitted that was probably true, but he did want to
instill a love of aviation in his daughter. I asked him if he did any
flying. He said he'd only been up once on a commercial flight when he
was young, so I asked if he'd like to go. I don't think I've seen
grins any bigger on kids faces. They decided they really didn't want
to send their daughter up after a big meal so I just took him around
the town and back.

I think the guys face was still frozen in that grin when they left.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

[Roger]

On Mon, 06 Mar 2006 19:40:19 GMT, Jose >
wrote:

>> He didn't say anything about charging the people. Assuming he doesn't
>> (seems like a safe assumption), that issue is completely irrelevant.
>
>No, that's not true at all.
>

It's all in semantics.

>There are no FAA regs whose reasonable English interpretation would
>forbid carrying passengers for free, but I have spoken with FAA
>representatives who state that, by their interpretation of the rules,
>offering to take people up, and becoming known for doing so, consititues

Stating to a group that you are going to be flying this week end and
if any one would like to go for a ride they are welcome. This by
definition makes the passenger(s) ride incidental to the trip.

OTOH, stating that if any one would like to go for a ride, give you a
call and you'll meet them at the airport this week end makes the ride
the reason for the flight. It is no longer incidental.

>a commercial operation whether money is trasnferred or not. This
>includes (the example I gave them) announcing at dinner at the college
>dorm that you just got your license... er... certificate, and are
>willing to take any students up for rides.

Depends on how it's phrased.

Even becoming known for giving rides in and of itself should not be a
reason. Only if the pilot comes out for the sole reason for giving
rides does, or could it become a problem.

If I practice every week end and *offer* a ride to a fence hanger or
two it shouldn't matter. Otherwise about half the pilots I know would
be called on the carpet.

OTOH when I "go out to practice" I sure don't take non pilots and most
of the local pilots don't want to go because I do approach, departure,
and accelerated stalls along with steep turns. Actually I do the
accelerated stalls out of steep turns at close to a 60 degree bank.
For some strange reason not many pilots seem to like stalls and most
hate steep turns, let alone stalling out of a steep turn.

>
>How is "holding out" defined by the FAA, and where is it reliably written?

The passenger's ride is not incidental to the reason for the flight.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

>
>Jose

[Jose]

>>How is "holding out" defined by the FAA, and where is it reliably written?
>
> The passenger's ride is not incidental to the reason for the flight.

Where in the FARs is this written? It is my contention that the FAA
made this up out of whole cloth.

Granted they can do this. But they still just made it up.

Jose
--
Money: what you need when you run out of brains.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[GeorgeC]

You know, I don't see kids hang on the airport fences anymore. I don't see the
hanger rats anymore. I don't see the old guy leaning against the hanger doors
grading landings and takeoffs and tell how it should have been done. Come to
think of it, I don't hanger talk much any more. Where have all the flower gone?
It sad.

I was one of those hanger rat, that someone gave a ride to and got me hooked.
Who's going to hook my replacement. I ashamed that it probably won't be me. I
fly out of a class D airport, maybe I should move to class E airport. Maybe
that's where the replacement are.

GeorgeC

[Dylan Smith]

On 2006-03-09, GeorgeC > wrote:
> You know, I don't see kids hang on the airport fences anymore. I don't see the
> hanger rats anymore. I don't see the old guy leaning against the hanger doors
> grading landings and takeoffs and tell how it should have been done.

Most airports I have been to have at least one geezer, and sometimes a
geezer shack. You may have to look for them though. We even found a
geezer at Van Nuys.

--
Dylan Smith, Port St Mary, Isle of Man
Flying: http://www.dylansmith.net
Oolite-Linux: an Elite tribute: http://oolite-linux.berlios.de
Frontier Elite Universe: http://www.alioth.net

[pittss1c]

Dylan Smith wrote:
> On 2006-03-09, GeorgeC > wrote:
>
>>You know, I don't see kids hang on the airport fences anymore. I don't see the
>>hanger rats anymore. I don't see the old guy leaning against the hanger doors
>>grading landings and takeoffs and tell how it should have been done.
>
>
> Most airports I have been to have at least one geezer, and sometimes a
> geezer shack. You may have to look for them though. We even found a
> geezer at Van Nuys.
>
I am a youngish pilot and would refuse to be based at an airport without
at least 2 geezers installed.

The knowledge contained and disseminated from our local geezers is
invaluable, and unfortunately not the kind that is commonly found in
literature.

Mike

[pittss1c]

Jose wrote:
>> I give rides to strangers all the time...
>
>
> How do you avoid being seen by the FAA as "holding out"?
>
> Jose

I don't charge them...I wouldn't even allow them to "share" cost.
The public has enough misconceptions about pilots/aircraft owners.
They often think we are rich when we are not. I would hate to add cheap
to that list (even if it is true). -meanwhile they throw away 10s of
thousands of dollars away in SUV depreciation after only a couple of years-

I feel very lucky to have the priviledge of flight/ownership. If I have
an chance to extend that joy to someone that, maybe never had or
recognized their oportunity, I'll do it in a heartbeat anytime. (with
adults or well supervised children)
I'm not sure if some misguided Federal F*$k head can interpret it as
breaking a FAR. If they do... bring it on.

Mike

[Morgans]

"pittss1c" > wrote

> I'm not sure if some misguided Federal F*$k head can interpret it as
> breaking a FAR. If they do... bring it on.

Right On!

Sometimes, you just have to do what is right... and Katie bar the doors!
--
Jim in NC

[Roger]

On Thu, 09 Mar 2006 13:44:41 -0000, Dylan Smith
> wrote:

>On 2006-03-09, GeorgeC > wrote:
>> You know, I don't see kids hang on the airport fences anymore. I don't see the
>> hanger rats anymore. I don't see the old guy leaning against the hanger doors
>> grading landings and takeoffs and tell how it should have been done.
>
>Most airports I have been to have at least one geezer, and sometimes a
>geezer shack. You may have to look for them though. We even found a
>geezer at Van Nuys.

We even have what the guys refer to as the ghetto hangar. They have a
group of 5 or 6 "experienced" pilots that have built and restored
planes in that old hangar. It's a meeting place for hangar flying,
snacks, coffee, a few beers after flying, and a place to learn. They
are currently doing a Sonex as a group project although it just
belongs to the one pilot.

Just two taxiways over is the EAA Chapter Education center which is
half hangar and half meeting rooms. When I was in there two weeks
back there were at least three planes under construction. A 4 place
canard design, a two place Challenger, and I'm trying to remember what
the other was.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

[GeorgeC]

I think I'll stay at my class D airport. I was hold short 17R as a Stearman was
landing on 17R. the tower told cleared across 17R, follow that Stearman, turn
left on Bravo. clear to park. The Stearman turned right, I wish Alfa 5 were
longer. Alfa 5 is an east-west taxiway and the wind was 17012KT. He was make
S-turns down the taxiway, and to look at Stearman you'd think there was no
crosswind. Beautiful.

While I was taxing to parking, a T-6 Texan II did a missed approach. He was to
high and I was to far away to get a good look, besides I was driving.

On Thu, 09 Mar 2006 13:44:41 -0000, Dylan Smith > wrote:

>On 2006-03-09, GeorgeC > wrote:
>> You know, I don't see kids hang on the airport fences anymore. I don't see the
>> hanger rats anymore. I don't see the old guy leaning against the hanger doors
>> grading landings and takeoffs and tell how it should have been done.
>
>Most airports I have been to have at least one geezer, and sometimes a
>geezer shack. You may have to look for them though. We even found a
>geezer at Van Nuys.

GeorgeC