gyro builders

[Dick]

New interest and would like to hear from gyro builders or flyers. Am
considering Vortech Sparrow UL gyro kit. Thanks, Dick

ps-already queried r.a.rotorcraft

[Kensandyeggo]

Dick wrote:
> New interest and would like to hear from gyro builders or flyers. Am
> considering Vortech Sparrow UL gyro kit. Thanks, Dick
>
> ps-already queried r.a.rotorcraft

Go to www.rotaryforum.com. That's where all the gyro-heads hang out.
Very active Forum with people who know what they're talking
about.........most of them.

[Kensandyeggo]

Dick wrote:
> New interest and would like to hear from gyro builders or flyers. Am
> considering Vortech Sparrow UL gyro kit. Thanks, Dick
>
> ps-already queried r.a.rotorcraft

Go to www.rotaryforum.com. That's where all the gyro-heads hang out.
Very active Forum with people who know what they're talking
about.........most of them.

[[email protected]]

I bought an RAF 2000 GTX-SE in 2000 and was an easy kit to build, but then
Im in the aviation business. If I wasnt I would touch gyros with a 10 foot
pole. They are fussy aircraft to setup and fly. You have to stay on top of
a gyro in flight. It takes 100% concentration 100% of the time. It gets
easier after time and becomes natural. I you have no rotorcraft
expereience then go for an intro flight before you buy a gyro. A lot of
people build these things and after a few hours of intense fear and
overwelming flying sell the aircraft before they get over their heads and
kill themselves. All the propaganda says gyros are easy to fly. Gyros are
not easy to fly safely. Because it is a rotorcraft with a semi rigid rotor
system the RAF is a very menuverable aircraft and a pleasure to fly, but
the tradeoff is an unstable aircraft in the hands of the inexperienced. As
for the Sparrow, its just an abortion created from the RAF.
If you live in Canada there are no flight instructors, you will have to go
to the US. Dont know who would teach you in a Sparrow but there are 4
flight instructors teaching in the RAF. I live in Canada and have 30 hours
in RAF gyros, 5 in my own bird. I dont fly with a horizonal stab and never
felt the need for one. You learn to fly a gyro properly and you stay alive.
Its all airspeed and altitude, pretty basic. If you think you are going to
fly it like a helicopter you will be dead! I will respond to all
questions,

Cheers, Loxley.

P.S. I have 30 hours dual and probably need another 10 to get the landings
down. Fixed wing pilots will have to unlearn some bad habits when training
on flying gyros. I didnt have a pilots licence at all so I am a little
quicker, never learned bad habits. According to one gyro instructor
helicopter pilots are even worse!

[Kensandyeggo]

You go on about how unstable the RAF is and then you state you don't
see a need for a horizontal stab. I flew an RAF without a stab for 85
hours and was about to get rid of it because of the nose pitching the
wrong way in drafts. I was then enlightened at www.rotaryforum.com and
added a stab. In fact, I started making them and sold over 30 of them.
That made it a completely different animal and I then went on to fly
almost 500 hours in it. Near the end, I had it converted to a
center-line-thrust Sparrowhawk configuration. I then got the hots for
a McCulloch J2 and sold it to get the J2.

Take a flight in a Sparrowhawk and you'll say that gyros are not hard
to fly. It's the instability of the stock RAF that makes it hard to
fly. I could have read a magazine and eaten a sandwich while flying
the stable version. Do yourself a favor and stop listening to the
aerodynamically-challenged CFIs of RAF and add a stab. You'll wonder
why you hesitated. Don't take my word for it, go to www.rotaryforum
and do a search on the RAF and stabs. The RAF in stock configuration
has killed more people in bunt-overs than I want to count. At the
least, a stab helps prevent this.

[Stuart & Kathryn Fields]

Loxley: Your comments about the RAF are interesting. Back in 1965 I built
a Benson with a 90hp Mac engine and since dual was not possible, self
instruction was the only way. Total towed time was 45 min before lighting
off the Mac. While there were some interesting interludes with learning
about blade tracking and balancing,(that we learned while towing) I was able
to solo the thing without doing any damage to myself or ship. Further I
found it easy to fly (after adjusting to the control lag) and actually flew
it with my knees while taking photos with a hand held camera. Zero roll
landings were relatively easy to do. Recently while reviewing my log book
for my helo add-on I found an entry where I did an airshow in Northern Calif
and my TT in gyro was 12hrs. I flew it in winds sufficient for vertical
take-offs and found it much easier to handle in those conditions than the
"Stuck Wings" that I had flown. My wife also learned to fly the thing. We
didn't find it hard to fly and our primary rule was weight in seat; don't
lose it. With the outboard motor fuel tank located below the seat we
obviously didn't have a centerline thrust and the little rock guard didn't
qualify as a horizontal stabilizer either. However comparing to the RAF we
didn't have a bunch of body work hanging out in the breeze in front of the
mast . I still think that the Benson was the easiest and probably safest
thing that I've flown. I've heard others talk about the apparent marginal
stability of the RAF. I did take a ride a number of years ago with a high
time RAF instructor when I was considering buying one. It used more runway
than an overloaded Cessna 150 on a hot day and that turned me off. I also
had a demo ride in the Sparrow prototype and found it very stable. We flew
hands off into a thermal and only got the elevator ride. I hated the
extremely stiff controls though and my right shoulder was hanging out in the
breeze. (I'm 6' and 180#)
My Baby Belle helicopter is harder to learn to fly and dang sure isn't as
stable as the Benson, but I can takeoff from my 40X40 helipad. I found
the gyros cheaper and easier to fly than the helo and since they are in
autorotation all the time, I believe safer. My only complaint of the gyros
is the runway requirement for takeoff. That said, I saw a video of Larry
Neal's Butterfly do a 20' roll and lift off. Who knows, I may be back in
one again now that they are included in the Sport Pilot category.
Your comments about the RAF make me think that the Benson is orders of
magnitude easier to learn to fly.

--
Stuart Fields
Experimental Helo magazine
P. O. Box 1585
Inyokern, CA 93527
(760) 377-4478
(760) 408-9747 general and layout cell
(760) 608-1299 technical and advertising cell

www.vkss.com
www.experimentalhelo.com


> wrote in message
...
> I bought an RAF 2000 GTX-SE in 2000 and was an easy kit to build, but
then
> Im in the aviation business. If I wasnt I would touch gyros with a 10
foot
> pole. They are fussy aircraft to setup and fly. You have to stay on top
of
> a gyro in flight. It takes 100% concentration 100% of the time. It gets
> easier after time and becomes natural. I you have no rotorcraft
> expereience then go for an intro flight before you buy a gyro. A lot of
> people build these things and after a few hours of intense fear and
> overwelming flying sell the aircraft before they get over their heads
and
> kill themselves. All the propaganda says gyros are easy to fly. Gyros
are
> not easy to fly safely. Because it is a rotorcraft with a semi rigid
rotor
> system the RAF is a very menuverable aircraft and a pleasure to fly, but
> the tradeoff is an unstable aircraft in the hands of the inexperienced.
As
> for the Sparrow, its just an abortion created from the RAF.
> If you live in Canada there are no flight instructors, you will have to
go
> to the US. Dont know who would teach you in a Sparrow but there are 4
> flight instructors teaching in the RAF. I live in Canada and have 30
hours
> in RAF gyros, 5 in my own bird. I dont fly with a horizonal stab and
never
> felt the need for one. You learn to fly a gyro properly and you stay
alive.
> Its all airspeed and altitude, pretty basic. If you think you are going
to
> fly it like a helicopter you will be dead! I will respond to all
> questions,
>
> Cheers, Loxley.
>
> P.S. I have 30 hours dual and probably need another 10 to get the
landings
> down. Fixed wing pilots will have to unlearn some bad habits when
training
> on flying gyros. I didnt have a pilots licence at all so I am a little
> quicker, never learned bad habits. According to one gyro instructor
> helicopter pilots are even worse!

[[email protected]]

I dont bother replying to Ken because he is very anty RAF. You can tell by
his rants. He rolled his bird over a while ago. Dont care what he flies
now. The Raf with 2 people on board does eat up a lot of runway. I can
barely get to circuit height to set up for a landing. Mine is the
carberated 2.2. My instructor flies the 2.5 Subaru and the 4 blade prop.
It is a handfull on takeoff. My instructor also has the new RAF stabilator
but as I said there is no need for horizonal stabes. It makes for a nice
trim but why not just learn to fly the aircraft properly. It is a 3500
dollar option that really isnt needed.

Cheers, Loxley.

[Kensandyeggo]

Loxley, can you grasp the fact that I flew an RAF for 500 hours, 85
without a stab and the rest with? True, I had no use for the liars at
RAF. If you can't get to pattern height with a 2.2, you obviously are
doing something wrong. Have you adjusted your prop pitch correctly?
The stock RAF is a handful on takeoff because it doesn't have a
horizontal stabilizer. I can't think of much that flies without a
horizontal stab, including birds. I agree, the stabilator is worthless
as anything that increases safety, but a stab is a necessity.

I rolled my gyro taking off from a dirt road that had a soft muddy spot
on the left side. I didn't notice it, even after walking it. A dumb
and expensive error, but what does that have to do with flying an
unstable, dangerously configured gyro? You're not learning to fly the
RAF properly, you're trying to learn to fly it improperly, in an
unstable configuration. Hope you add a stab or sell it before you kill
yourself.

[Kensandyeggo]

Loxley, can you grasp the fact that I flew an RAF for 500 hours, 85
without a stab and the rest with? True, I had no use for the liars at
RAF. If you can't get to pattern height with a 2.2, you obviously are
doing something wrong. Have you adjusted your prop pitch correctly?
The stock RAF is a handful on takeoff because it doesn't have a
horizontal stabilizer. I can't think of much that flies without a
horizontal stab, including birds. I agree, the stabilator is worthless
as anything that increases safety, but a stab is a necessity.

I rolled my gyro taking off from a dirt road that had a soft muddy spot
on the left side. I didn't notice it, even after walking it. A dumb
and expensive error, but what does that have to do with flying an
unstable, dangerously configured gyro? You're not learning to fly the
RAF properly, you're trying to learn to fly it improperly, in an
unstable configuration. Hope you add a stab or sell it before you kill
yourself.

[Kensandyeggo]

By the way Loxley, my rolling my gyro is as pertinent to the discussion
as your numerous postings in the pedophile newsgroups in your profile.

[Montblack]

("Kensandyeggo" wrote)
> By the way Loxley, my rolling my gyro is as pertinent to the discussion as
> your numerous postings in the pedophile newsgroups in your profile.


Not sure if this is the case here, but sometimes those "other" newsgroups
show up as a result of "Replying" to, say, an aviation post in a
cross-posted thread.


Montblack
They have pedophile newsgroups? Wonder if they ever get OT and start talking
politics? <g>

[[email protected]]

You claim to be a good pilot but you still make dumb inexperienced errors,
who is at risk of dying here? I only have 30 hours and have learned a lot
about the limitations of the gyroplane. Berhaps you should take up a
different aircraft before your decisions kill you. Im no pedo, I just stick
up for the unjustly vickemised.

[GyroMike]

A stable gyroplane does not take 100% concentration 100% of the time.

An RAF 2000 is not a stable gyroplane.
A SparrowHawk is a stable gyroplane.

Lox, you seem to have your mind made up, and it sounds like the
standard RAF party line. "Training, training, training".

One of the highest time gyro instructors in the U.S. is Ron Menzie. Ron
is also a Designated Examiner for gyros.
He was an RAF dealer until he broke ranks over the horizontal
stabilizer issue. Take a look at his evaluation of the horizontal
stabilizer on the RAF.
http://www.ronsgyros.com/Technical.html
Oh yeah, he's now a SparrowHawk dealer.

For any other interested readers, bop on over to www.rotaryforum.com
and read the latests post by Stan Foster. Stan was very much an 'RAF
guy'. He recently built a SparrowHawk and is currently flying off the
test hours. He now raves about the flying qualities of the SparrowHawk.
Here's the latest thread he started:

http://www.rotaryforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7845

Mike Gaspard
Administrator
www.rotaryforum.com

[Kensandyeggo]

Mike, don't confuse Lox with actual facts and proof. Lox, where did I
claim I was a good pilot? Quit makin' up ****.