ASW20A and Cirrus

[Jeff Runciman]

Hi guys,

After spending some time in Phoenix on a Grob 103,
I have started looking for my first glass glider. I
am currently looking at an ASW20A and a Standard Cirrus.
I know they are quite different. I guess my concerns
are the full flying tail on the Cirrus and the flaps
on the ASW. Any thoughts would be appreciated.

Jeff

[Stewart Kissel]

A google search of the forum will bring back to life
some long and winding threads on both...and no doubt
a few ras'ers waiting for spring will post anew. I
do recall the 'all flying tails of death' thread from
a few years ago. :)

[Mike Yankee]

ASW-20 performs better but the Cirrus is a wonderful glider. With
1000+ hours in the Standard Cirrus, I can offer the following comments:

1. Large, comfy cockpit

2. Light wings, easy rigging.

3. Extremely pleasant to handle in thermals, really grooves nicely. I
wish my present DG-300 had the Standard Cirrus feel.

4. I consider the 4-inch wheel a disadvantage. You will need to keep
the brake in top shape. The self-energizing brake mod is worth
considering.

5. The integral water system (just pour it in the wings) can't be beat,
but only 20 gallons is marginal for serious ridge flying. Even so, I
once did a 500 km O&R in only 3:21 in mine.

6. With light stick forces and the all-flying tail, the Standard Cirrus
is susceptible to overcontrol and PIO's at the hands of low-time pilots
making their initial flights on windy days. It's not scary and you'll
adapt to it quickly, but it deserves respect.

7. The spoilers are not as powerful as those on newer gliders, but give
perfectly good glidepath control around 60 knots and below. I've seen
some Cirrus pilots make very long landings and it's always because of
excessive speed on final. Speed control is doubly important on
outlandings with the marginal wheelbrake.

A comment on the Pegasus, which someone mentioned. That is a fine
glider (essentially a flapless ASW-20) but I would NEVER consider
owning one because of lousy manufacturer support and also, I believe, a
3000-hour airframe life limitation now. The major support issue is a
special resin which must be used in structural repairs; there have been
cases where the manufacturer refused to supply the resin to US repair
shops because of product-liability concerns. I don't know if this is
still happening, or whether there's an alternate resin or other
workaround, but caveat emptor.

[Bruce]

Mike Yankee wrote:
> ASW-20 performs better but the Cirrus is a wonderful glider. With
> 1000+ hours in the Standard Cirrus, I can offer the following comments:
>
> 1. Large, comfy cockpit
>
> 2. Light wings, easy rigging.
>
> 3. Extremely pleasant to handle in thermals, really grooves nicely. I
> wish my present DG-300 had the Standard Cirrus feel.
>
> 4. I consider the 4-inch wheel a disadvantage. You will need to keep
> the brake in top shape. The self-energizing brake mod is worth
> considering.
>
> 5. The integral water system (just pour it in the wings) can't be beat,
> but only 20 gallons is marginal for serious ridge flying. Even so, I
> once did a 500 km O&R in only 3:21 in mine.
>
> 6. With light stick forces and the all-flying tail, the Standard Cirrus
> is susceptible to overcontrol and PIO's at the hands of low-time pilots
> making their initial flights on windy days. It's not scary and you'll
> adapt to it quickly, but it deserves respect.
>
> 7. The spoilers are not as powerful as those on newer gliders, but give
> perfectly good glidepath control around 60 knots and below. I've seen
> some Cirrus pilots make very long landings and it's always because of
> excessive speed on final. Speed control is doubly important on
> outlandings with the marginal wheelbrake.
>
> A comment on the Pegasus, which someone mentioned. That is a fine
> glider (essentially a flapless ASW-20) but I would NEVER consider
> owning one because of lousy manufacturer support and also, I believe, a
> 3000-hour airframe life limitation now. The major support issue is a
> special resin which must be used in structural repairs; there have been
> cases where the manufacturer refused to supply the resin to US repair
> shops because of product-liability concerns. I don't know if this is
> still happening, or whether there's an alternate resin or other
> workaround, but caveat emptor.
>
Rigging any glider is a potentially dangerous situation. The manual connects on
the elevator of both of these (and most of the earlier gliders) can easily be
misconnected, and have resulted in fatal accidents.

The Cirrus has "delightful handling" to quote Fundamentals of Sailplane Design.
The rider is that it is very light on the controls,so rewards precise flying.
PIO can be a problem. Again, like most gliders of their generation, their
manners at the stall can be poor, and differ depending on the example you are
flying.

Comments from those who have flown both, include almost equal numbers who have
loved and loathed them. Again it depends on where and how you fly. The Cirrus
has a wing like a plank. There is very little flexibility in it. Hence it
transmits every nuance of the air and for a low time pilot like me, this
improves my chances of finding/coring/maximizing my thermals. The 20 has floppy
soft wings that are a lot more comfortable in turbulent conditions but some
pilots complain of a lack of feedback and responsiveness.

Personally I like the no flaps - it makes the flying simpler. Again, in many
conditions the Cirrus has a climb advantage. But don't think you are going to
run with a 20...

And yes the Cirrus has a very large comfortable cockpit. (Which is virtually
impossible to seal)
The 4" Tost Lilliput wheel is a poor joke, it is pretty ineffectual at best.

You will enjoy whatever you buy, and as mentioned in thethread, there are lots
of other types out there.
--
Bruce Greeff
Std Cirrus #57
I'm no-T at the address above.

[Clint]

Jeff Runciman wrote:
> Hi guys,
>
> After spending some time in Phoenix on a Grob 103,
> I have started looking for my first glass glider. I
> am currently looking at an ASW20A and a Standard Cirrus.
> I know they are quite different. I guess my concerns
> are the full flying tail on the Cirrus and the flaps
> on the ASW. Any thoughts would be appreciated.
>
> Jeff

My father owned an early cirrus (1969 model) as well as an ASW20A. His
only advice for me when I started shopping for my own glider was not to
buy a Cirrus... He says he never felt as comfortable in it compared to
the '20 - and almost killed himself on his fouth flight when the glider
spun just after releasing. It would appear that not all Cirrus's are
the same and later models had different tips to reduce wing drop on the
stall. By the '75 models - it had become a very pleasant aircraft.

The ASW 20 is a dream - but my LAK 12 which I bought for less money and
~15 years newer out climbs and out runs it easily. I just wish I still
had friends at the club willing to fetch me ;-)

Clinton
LAK 12

Clinton