Painting with Latex House Paint

[Ron Wanttaja]

One of our Fly Baby restorers is painting his aircraft with latex house paint.
He's been posting his progress to the Fly Baby mailing list, and is allowing me
to repost his messages to my web page:

http://www.bowersflybaby.com/tech/latex.html

Ron Wanttaja

[Orval Fairbairn]

In article >,
Ron Wanttaja > wrote:

> One of our Fly Baby restorers is painting his aircraft with latex house
> paint.
> He's been posting his progress to the Fly Baby mailing list, and is allowing
> me
> to repost his messages to my web page:
>
> http://www.bowersflybaby.com/tech/latex.html
>
> Ron Wanttaja

I would not expect it to have very good UV protection without using lots
of silver! I have never tried to work with latex on even test samples of
fabric. It should be interesting to see how it turns our.


Isn't latex the basis for the Green River (?) process?

[Rich S.]

"Orval Fairbairn" > wrote in message
...
>
> I would not expect it to have very good UV protection without using lots
> of silver! I have never tried to work with latex on even test samples of
> fabric. It should be interesting to see how it turns our.

Orval.........

My first Emeraude was finished with latex and the cover job was twenty years
old. (Hangared, of course.)

The UV protection comes not from silver but from a coat of black latex under
the color coat. The black undercoat may be sanded to smooth and fill the
edges of the tapes and seams just like silver. You just have to make sure
that the last coat of black completely protects the fabric and is not sanded
through anywhere.

Rich S.

[[email protected]]

Rich S. wrote:
> ...
> The UV protection comes not from silver but from a coat of black latex under
> the color coat. ...


This is an oft repeated canard. For some strange reason, folks simply
assume that since black paint blocks visible light, it must also block
UV light. By that logic, it would be legitimate to assume that black
paoint blocks every other wavelength in the spectrum: xrays, infrared,
radio waves, gamma rays, etc.

Ok, so if we quit making groundless assumptions, what've we got? Mmmm,
how about scientific analysis?

A Pietenpol builder by the name of Kirk Huizenga did a series of
spectrometry tests on several colors of latex. Turns out that there's
nothing special about black, nothing at all. Paint it with whatever
color you want, they all protect from UV equally well. His report, the
transformed data and the analysis are available (pdf & xls files):

http://www.mykitplane.com/Planes/filesList2.cfm?AlbumID=5

Daniel

[clare at snyder.on.ca]

On Sat, 11 Mar 2006 16:36:02 -0800, "Rich S."
> wrote:

>"Orval Fairbairn" > wrote in message
...
>>
>> I would not expect it to have very good UV protection without using lots
>> of silver! I have never tried to work with latex on even test samples of
>> fabric. It should be interesting to see how it turns our.
>
>Orval.........
>
>My first Emeraude was finished with latex and the cover job was twenty years
>old. (Hangared, of course.)
>
>The UV protection comes not from silver but from a coat of black latex under
>the color coat. The black undercoat may be sanded to smooth and fill the
>edges of the tapes and seams just like silver. You just have to make sure
>that the last coat of black completely protects the fabric and is not sanded
>through anywhere.
>
>Rich S.
>
Titanium Dioxide (white pigment) is also effective for UV blocking.
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[Rich S.]

> wrote in message
ups.com...
>
>
> A Pietenpol builder by the name of Kirk Huizenga did a series of
> spectrometry tests on several colors of latex. Turns out that there's
> nothing special about black, nothing at all. Paint it with whatever
> color you want, they all protect from UV equally well. His report, the
> transformed data and the analysis are available (pdf & xls files):
>
> http://www.mykitplane.com/Planes/filesList2.cfm?AlbumID=5

It would seem that you are correct. I should have been more specific, as I
was offering a single case study as an example. Emeraude N29GL was finished
using a black latex undercoat and blue & white color coats. After 20 years,
the fabric was still in good condition although the workmanship on the
finish was extremely rough. I'm not sure if the builder even cleaned his
broom before using it to apply the paint. :))

Rich S.

[Roger]

On Sat, 11 Mar 2006 11:40:43 -0800, Ron Wanttaja
> wrote:

>One of our Fly Baby restorers is painting his aircraft with latex house paint.
>He's been posting his progress to the Fly Baby mailing list, and is allowing me
>to repost his messages to my web page:
>
>http://www.bowersflybaby.com/tech/latex.html
>
Guaranteed to turn anything white that touches it after a year of two
outside. House paint is supposed to be self cleaning, or at least it
was.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com
>Ron Wanttaja

[Ron Wanttaja]

On Sun, 12 Mar 2006 18:57:07 -0500, "Morgans" > wrote:

>
>"Roger" > wrote
>
>> Guaranteed to turn anything white that touches it after a year of two
>> outside. House paint is supposed to be self cleaning, or at least it
>> was.
>
>How the latex will perform in the chalking regard, I am unsure of. Of one
>thing I am sure of, Latex paint has changed much, in the past few years.
>
>Paint manufacturers are being "encouraged" to get more and more away from
>oil paints, with all of their volatile substances, so they have improved
>latex's quality and durability, greatly. It will be interesting to see how
>they hold up on planes in the long term.

Drew Fidoe, the guy using latex paint on his Fly Baby, started a test with paint
samples left outdoors about 4-5 years ago. Nothing he saw from those
discouraged him so far.

A while back, a local homebuilder was laughed at because he covered his
elevators with nurse's uniform fabric from the local sewing-goods store. After
45 years without having to recover them, no one's laughing any more.

Ron Wanttaja

[Morgans]

"Roger" > wrote

> Guaranteed to turn anything white that touches it after a year of two
> outside. House paint is supposed to be self cleaning, or at least it
> was.

How the latex will perform in the chalking regard, I am unsure of. Of one
thing I am sure of, Latex paint has changed much, in the past few years.

Paint manufacturers are being "encouraged" to get more and more away from
oil paints, with all of their volatile substances, so they have improved
latex's quality and durability, greatly. It will be interesting to see how
they hold up on planes in the long term.

I seem to recall that new car auto makers are now beginning to use paints
almost totally lacking in volatile.
--
Jim in NC

[Rich S.]

"Roger" > wrote in message
...
> Guaranteed to turn anything white that touches it after a year of two
> outside. House paint is supposed to be self cleaning, or at least it
> was.

Y'know Roger, that made me remember. While the Emeraude I mentioned was
prepped with latex, the color coats were Dupont Dulux car enamel. A mind is
a terrible thing to lose.

Rich S.

[Morgans]

"Ron Wanttaja" > wrote

> A while back, a local homebuilder was laughed at because he covered his
> elevators with nurse's uniform fabric from the local sewing-goods store.
After
> 45 years without having to recover them, no one's laughing any more.

Wow, 45 years is _certainly_ a while back, and also good life for a
covering! <g>
--
Jim in NC

[clare at snyder.on.ca]

On Sun, 12 Mar 2006 15:59:26 -0800, "Rich S."
> wrote:

>"Roger" > wrote in message
...
>> Guaranteed to turn anything white that touches it after a year of two
>> outside. House paint is supposed to be self cleaning, or at least it
>> was.
>
>Y'know Roger, that made me remember. While the Emeraude I mentioned was
>prepped with latex, the color coats were Dupont Dulux car enamel. A mind is
>a terrible thing to lose.
>
>Rich S.
>
And there are chalking and non-chalking house paints, both latex and
"oil". Gloss latex trim paint is generally non chalking, while
semi-gloss lates siding paint is generally chalking. Lucite acrylic
latex trim paint is non chalking, and apparently the latex of choice.
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[[email protected]]

That nurse's uniform fabric was dacron polyester?

I've always thought it was a little bit of a sham that you pay double
for PMA'd fabric with the FAA stamp on it, when the homebuilder fabric
and the PMA'd most likely come from the same looms and the same
factory.

There are several ways to filter UV rays, according to the experts.
Airtech process uses a clear filter, not aluminum flakes. After all,
the UV protection you rub on your skin is clear.

[Ron Wanttaja]

On 13 Mar 2006 06:06:04 -0800, wrote:

>That nurse's uniform fabric was dacron polyester?

Yep....

Ron Wanttaja

[Bela P. Havasreti]

On Sat, 11 Mar 2006 11:40:43 -0800, Ron Wanttaja
> wrote:

>One of our Fly Baby restorers is painting his aircraft with latex house paint.
>He's been posting his progress to the Fly Baby mailing list, and is allowing me
>to repost his messages to my web page:
>
>http://www.bowersflybaby.com/tech/latex.html
>
>Ron Wanttaja

ThisT-28 used to be based at Boeing Field, and was painted with
Sears house paint (sand + spinach camaflouge colors).

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v730/fugari/CrashWilliamsflyinghisT-28B.jpg

FWIW, it was tied down outside, and seemed to hold up well to the
Pacific Northwest weather....

Bela P. Havasreti

[Rich S.]

"Bela P. Havasreti" > wrote in message
...
> ThisT-28 used to be based at Boeing Field, and was painted with
> Sears house paint (sand + spinach camaflouge colors).
>
> http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v730/fugari/CrashWilliamsflyinghisT-28B.jpg
>
> FWIW, it was tied down outside, and seemed to hold up well to the
> Pacific Northwest weather....

Is that a standard "Stars & Bars" on the fuselage? Mebbe Marines are color
blind. . .

Rich S.

[Bela P. Havasreti]

On Mon, 13 Mar 2006 08:42:16 -0800, "Rich S."
> wrote:

>"Bela P. Havasreti" > wrote in message
...
>> ThisT-28 used to be based at Boeing Field, and was painted with
>> Sears house paint (sand + spinach camaflouge colors).
>>
>> http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v730/fugari/CrashWilliamsflyinghisT-28B.jpg
>>
>> FWIW, it was tied down outside, and seemed to hold up well to the
>> Pacific Northwest weather....
>
>Is that a standard "Stars & Bars" on the fuselage? Mebbe Marines are color
>blind. . .
>
>Rich S.
>

The Stars & Bars markings are correct for a South Vietnamese T-28.

http://www.afa.org/magazine/Dec2005/1205farmgate.asp

Bela P. Havasreti

[Orval Fairbairn]

In article >,
"Rich S." > wrote:

> "Bela P. Havasreti" > wrote in message
> ...
> > ThisT-28 used to be based at Boeing Field, and was painted with
> > Sears house paint (sand + spinach camaflouge colors).
> >
> > http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v730/fugari/CrashWilliamsflyinghisT-28B.jp
> > g
> >
> > FWIW, it was tied down outside, and seemed to hold up well to the
> > Pacific Northwest weather....
>
> Is that a standard "Stars & Bars" on the fuselage? Mebbe Marines are color
> blind. . .
>
> Rich S.

South Vietnamese markings.

[Rich S.]

"Bela P. Havasreti" > wrote in message
...
>
> The Stars & Bars markings are correct for a South Vietnamese T-28.
>
> http://www.afa.org/magazine/Dec2005/1205farmgate.asp

Learn something new every day. I've probably seen that a lot but never
noticed.

Thanks,
Rich S.

[ChuckSlusarczyk]

In article om>,
says...
>
>That nurse's uniform fabric was dacron polyester?
>
>I've always thought it was a little bit of a sham that you pay double
>for PMA'd fabric with the FAA stamp on it, when the homebuilder fabric
>and the PMA'd most likely come from the same looms and the same
>factory.

I used to cover my models with Polyester Sheath lining that I got from JoAnnes
fabrics. Later I used it to cover my Easy Riser Ultralight. You can get it in
colors and patterns too!! :-)It's about 1.6 - 1.8 ounce weight.

Chuck S

[Orval Fairbairn]

In article >,
ChuckSlusarczyk > wrote:

> In article om>,
> says...
> >
> >That nurse's uniform fabric was dacron polyester?
> >
> >I've always thought it was a little bit of a sham that you pay double
> >for PMA'd fabric with the FAA stamp on it, when the homebuilder fabric
> >and the PMA'd most likely come from the same looms and the same
> >factory.
>
> I used to cover my models with Polyester Sheath lining that I got from JoAnnes
> fabrics. Later I used it to cover my Easy Riser Ultralight. You can get it in
> colors and patterns too!! :-)It's about 1.6 - 1.8 ounce weight.
>
> Chuck S

The only major caveat here is that you use "greige" (sp) Dacron, which
has not been pre-shrunk. Most of the polyester that you buy in fabric
stores has been shrunk already and will not taughten up under heat.

That property is what Ceconite, Stits, etc. use to maintain a nice,
tight cover. The dope, paint, etc. is there only to provide UV
protection, fill the pores, give a finish, etc. It is also because the
fabric is already taught that you use non-taughtening butyrate dope, or
you can (will) warp things.

[ChuckSlusarczyk]

In article >, Orval
Fairbairn says...

>The only major caveat here is that you use "greige" (sp) Dacron, which
>has not been pre-shrunk. Most of the polyester that you buy in fabric
>stores has been shrunk already and will not taughten up under heat.
>
>That property is what Ceconite, Stits, etc. use to maintain a nice,
>tight cover. The dope, paint, etc. is there only to provide UV
>protection, fill the pores, give a finish, etc. It is also because the
>fabric is already taught that you use non-taughtening butyrate dope, or
>you can (will) warp things.

The Sheath lining has not been shrunk and will work just like Ceconite ,Stits
etc. I used a nitrate based dope for my first coats and my final coats were
Randolph butayrate dopes.My plane is in the EAA museum and is almost 30 years
old and looks great.

See ya

Chuck

[Orval Fairbairn]

In article >,
ChuckSlusarczyk > wrote:

> In article >, Orval
> Fairbairn says...
>
> >The only major caveat here is that you use "greige" (sp) Dacron, which
> >has not been pre-shrunk. Most of the polyester that you buy in fabric
> >stores has been shrunk already and will not taughten up under heat.
> >
> >That property is what Ceconite, Stits, etc. use to maintain a nice,
> >tight cover. The dope, paint, etc. is there only to provide UV
> >protection, fill the pores, give a finish, etc. It is also because the
> >fabric is already taught that you use non-taughtening butyrate dope, or
> >you can (will) warp things.
>
> The Sheath lining has not been shrunk and will work just like Ceconite ,Stits
> etc. I used a nitrate based dope for my first coats and my final coats were
> Randolph butayrate dopes.My plane is in the EAA museum and is almost 30 years
> old and looks great.
>
> See ya
>
> Chuck

It sounds like you did it right! A lot of the fabric store Dacron is
pre-shrunk. People also used to make the mistake of applying butyrate
directly to the Dacron -- it has very poor adhesion and will peel off.
You need the nitrate to prime it wit™ something that will stick to the
Dacron.

Now -- how well does latex stick to the fabric, or do they use some
other kind of primer?

[Denny]

Acrylic Latex gloss house paint is the nearest thing to immortality in
modern paints... UV reflective, water proof, non shrinking, tough,
resists most solvents, really good stuff... You don't need anything
"under" the paint to block the UV... The whole point of exterior paint
is that it blocks UV and is waterproof...
Many in the home boat builder ranks consider it theworld's best kept
secret for finishing boats... You can buy 2 part Linear Polyurethane at
$500 a gallon, or you can get Sherman WIlliams at the discount store...
Your call...

denny

[Smitty Two]

In article . com>,
"Denny" > wrote:

> Acrylic Latex gloss house paint is the nearest thing to immortality in
> modern paints... UV reflective, water proof, non shrinking, tough,
> resists most solvents, really good stuff... You don't need anything
> "under" the paint to block the UV... The whole point of exterior paint
> is that it blocks UV and is waterproof...
> Many in the home boat builder ranks consider it theworld's best kept
> secret for finishing boats... You can buy 2 part Linear Polyurethane at
> $500 a gallon, or you can get Sherman WIlliams at the discount store...
> Your call...
>
> denny

Does it stick to aluminum? Tin can pilots want to know.

[ChuckSlusarczyk]

In article >, Orval
Fairbairn says...

>
>It sounds like you did it right! A lot of the fabric store Dacron is
>pre-shrunk. People also used to make the mistake of applying butyrate
>directly to the Dacron -- it has very poor adhesion and will peel off.
>You need the nitrate to prime it wit™ something that will stick to the
>Dacron.
>
>Now -- how well does latex stick to the fabric, or do they use some
>other kind of primer?

You have to use a thinned down nitrate to encapsulate the weave .Nitrate does
this very well. Most paints will skin over the top of the fabric and eventually
peel off like sunburnt skin. Been there done that :-)
I suppose the house paints will go over Nitrate OK but I wonder about making a
repair to the fabric .I would think that the active solvents in nitrate would
make short work of the house paint and It would sem that trying to blend the
repair paint to the existing paint could be a problem.

See ya

Chuck S

[clare at snyder.on.ca]

On 14 Mar 2006 05:05:17 -0800, ChuckSlusarczyk
> wrote:

>In article >, Orval
>Fairbairn says...
>
>>The only major caveat here is that you use "greige" (sp) Dacron, which
>>has not been pre-shrunk. Most of the polyester that you buy in fabric
>>stores has been shrunk already and will not taughten up under heat.
>>
>>That property is what Ceconite, Stits, etc. use to maintain a nice,
>>tight cover. The dope, paint, etc. is there only to provide UV
>>protection, fill the pores, give a finish, etc. It is also because the
>>fabric is already taught that you use non-taughtening butyrate dope, or
>>you can (will) warp things.
>
>The Sheath lining has not been shrunk and will work just like Ceconite ,Stits
>etc. I used a nitrate based dope for my first coats and my final coats were
>Randolph butayrate dopes.My plane is in the EAA museum and is almost 30 years
>old and looks great.
>
>See ya
>
>Chuck
Could not find sheath lining, but did find 1.7 oz polyester sheer
window covering material in 118 inch width for $9 canadian per running
yard. Shrinks up to 20%.
Just did a small test panel with Zinsser Bullseye 123 water based
primer.
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[clare at snyder.on.ca]

On 14 Mar 2006 21:03:51 -0800, ChuckSlusarczyk
> wrote:

>In article >, Orval
>Fairbairn says...
>
>>
>>It sounds like you did it right! A lot of the fabric store Dacron is
>>pre-shrunk. People also used to make the mistake of applying butyrate
>>directly to the Dacron -- it has very poor adhesion and will peel off.
>>You need the nitrate to prime it witâ„¢ something that will stick to the
>>Dacron.
>>
>>Now -- how well does latex stick to the fabric, or do they use some
>>other kind of primer?
>
>You have to use a thinned down nitrate to encapsulate the weave .Nitrate does
>this very well. Most paints will skin over the top of the fabric and eventually
>peel off like sunburnt skin. Been there done that :-)
>I suppose the house paints will go over Nitrate OK but I wonder about making a
>repair to the fabric .I would think that the active solvents in nitrate would
>make short work of the house paint and It would sem that trying to blend the
>repair paint to the existing paint could be a problem.
>
>See ya
>
>Chuck S
This Zinsser Bullseye sticks to ANYTHING including ceramic tile
without sanding, and seems to have encapsulated the fibers very well.
Doing some testing.
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[clare at snyder.on.ca]

On Tue, 14 Mar 2006 18:30:05 -0800, Smitty Two
> wrote:

>In article . com>,
> "Denny" > wrote:
>
>> Acrylic Latex gloss house paint is the nearest thing to immortality in
>> modern paints... UV reflective, water proof, non shrinking, tough,
>> resists most solvents, really good stuff... You don't need anything
>> "under" the paint to block the UV... The whole point of exterior paint
>> is that it blocks UV and is waterproof...
>> Many in the home boat builder ranks consider it theworld's best kept
>> secret for finishing boats... You can buy 2 part Linear Polyurethane at
>> $500 a gallon, or you can get Sherman WIlliams at the discount store...
>> Your call...
>>
>> denny
>
>Does it stick to aluminum? Tin can pilots want to know.
This stuff sticks to aluminum. It is also a rust inhibitor on steel.
It sticks to just about anything any water based or oil based paint
will stick to, only in most cases better.
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[Denny]

As the guys pointed out, just think "BullsEye", and it sticks...

denny

[Brian Huffaker]

Lots of the skin on frame kayak guys use polyester skins (heavier
weight than airplane however). They prefer oil based house paint, and
just thin the first few coats enough so as to have it soak thru the
fabric to encapsulate the fibers. Just a data point from a similar
construction style. Never tried it on a plane.

Brian Huffaker, DSWL )
RV-8A #80091 countersinking cockpit rails
Starduster Too 23UT flying

[clare at snyder.on.ca]

On Thu, 16 Mar 2006 16:49:38 +0000 (UTC), Brian Huffaker
> wrote:

> Lots of the skin on frame kayak guys use polyester skins (heavier
>weight than airplane however). They prefer oil based house paint, and
>just thin the first few coats enough so as to have it soak thru the
>fabric to encapsulate the fibers. Just a data point from a similar
>construction style. Never tried it on a plane.
>
> Brian Huffaker, DSWL )
> RV-8A #80091 countersinking cockpit rails
> Starduster Too 23UT flying
Being submerged in water for a good part of their life, there MAY be
an advantage to oil based paints on a Kayak. However, good Latex DOES
stand up relatively well even in that application, on cotton canvas
anyway.
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