Airports/Airspace

[[email protected]]

Lets get to the bottom of this.
I constantly hear people refer to Airports as being class B,C or D
Airports. Any of you who have thorough knowledge and understanding of
Airports will know that there are only two kinds of Airports in all of
our National Airspace System (NAS). There is Towered and Non-Towered
Airports. We have Class A,B,C,D,E and G Airspace. The Airspace overlays
the Airports. Now show me where in the Aeronautical Information Manual
(AIM) or an FAA Approved government publication that mentions a class
B,C,D Airport. You will not find it...

Take the time and choose your words carefully.

Cjamairway

[Peter R.]

> wrote:

> We have Class A,B,C,D,E and G Airspace. The Airspace overlays
> the Airports. Now show me where in the Aeronautical Information Manual
> (AIM) or an FAA Approved government publication that mentions a class
> B,C,D Airport. You will not find it...

Hey, Chad, I see you finally are dipping your toes in the exciting world of
Usenet. Be ready for anything and remain thick-skinned. :-)

While perhaps there is no official reference in the AIM, I consider the
"unofficial" extrapolation of airspace down to airports a quick way for me
and my pilot acquaintances to envision the physical size of the airport,
the communication expectations, the volume of arrival and departure
traffic, and the air traffic procedures both on the ground and in the air.


--
Peter

[Casey Wilson]

> wrote in message
oups.com...
> Lets get to the bottom of this.
> I constantly hear people refer to Airports as being class B,C or D
> Airports. Any of you who have thorough knowledge and understanding of
> Airports will know that there are only two kinds of Airports in all of
> our National Airspace System (NAS). There is Towered and Non-Towered
> Airports. We have Class A,B,C,D,E and G Airspace. The Airspace overlays
> the Airports. Now show me where in the Aeronautical Information Manual
> (AIM) or an FAA Approved government publication that mentions a class
> B,C,D Airport. You will not find it...
>
> Take the time and choose your words carefully.
>
> Cjamairway

One word..... TROLL!

[John Theune]

wrote:
> Lets get to the bottom of this.
> I constantly hear people refer to Airports as being class B,C or D
> Airports. Any of you who have thorough knowledge and understanding of
> Airports will know that there are only two kinds of Airports in all of
> our National Airspace System (NAS). There is Towered and Non-Towered
> Airports. We have Class A,B,C,D,E and G Airspace. The Airspace overlays
> the Airports. Now show me where in the Aeronautical Information Manual
> (AIM) or an FAA Approved government publication that mentions a class
> B,C,D Airport. You will not find it...
>
> Take the time and choose your words carefully.
>
> Cjamairway
>
If we had transporters instead of airplanes it would make a difference,
but since we have to fly from the airport, the airspace descriptive of
the environment.

[Peter Duniho]

> wrote in message
oups.com...
> Take the time and choose your words carefully.

Get a grip.

Aviation is filled with examples of language that doesn't strictly match the
regulations, but which is perfectly understandable by the people who talk of
such matters.

If you want to go stand in line with the people splitting hairs over
"biannual" versus "biennial", or "ICC" versus "IPC", or even "license"
versus "certificate", be my guest. But it's a waste of time, and frankly it
makes you look even more anal retentive than the usual
computer-geek-on-Usenet.

Me? I'd much rather say "Class C airport" than "towered airport around
which Class C airspace is centered". I've yet to run into anyone who would
get confused by the former.

Pete

[Peter R.]

Casey Wilson <N2310D @gmail.com> wrote:

> One word..... TROLL!

Not at all. I can vouch for Chad. He is a new, young, and talented CFI at
the flight school where I once trained and is very passionate about
aviation.

He is also new to newsgroups so give him a chance to become acclimated to
this medium.

--
Peter

[Roy Smith]

wrote:

> Now show me where in the Aeronautical Information Manual
> (AIM) or an FAA Approved government publication that mentions a class
> B,C,D Airport. You will not find it...

You can find a few at http://tinyurl.com/n5vuv

You are correct that "Towered airport with Class B Airspace designated for
it" is technically more correct than "Class B Airport", but this is a nit.
When you say, "Class B Airport", everybody knows what you're talking about,
and that's all that really matters.

And, anyway, everybody knows that:

> Any of you who have thorough knowledge and understanding of
> Airports will know that there are only two kinds of Airports in all of
> our National Airspace System (NAS). There is Towered and Non-Towered
> Airports.

Is incorrect. The two types of airports are those where you can get a good
burger and a coke for under $10, and those where you can't.

[Dylan Smith]

On 2006-03-15, > wrote:
> Lets get to the bottom of this.
> I constantly hear people refer to Airports as being class B,C or D
> Airports. Any of you who have thorough knowledge and understanding of
> Airports will know that there are only two kinds of Airports in all of
> our National Airspace System (NAS). There is Towered and Non-Towered
> Airports. We have Class A,B,C,D,E and G Airspace.
<snip>

But in casual talk, that's not useful. When talking to your DE, or
having an in-depth discussion with the FAA, the distinction MAY be
useful - but for every day piloting, calling it a 'class D field' tells
the listener in a very concise way that the field has a control tower
with class D airspace. The listener will understand exactly what you
mean and the consequences without having to say 'a towered field with
class D airspace' which takes longer to say.

There is no mention of a 'stop and go' in the regs either, but if an FAA
inspector sees '3 stop and goes' in your log book by the entry for a
Cessna 140, and it was less than 90 days ago, he knows you are current
in tailwheel aircraft. '3 landings to a full stop' takes up much more
space in that tiny area you get to make remarks in your log book.

On the other hand, if you keep up with this pedantry, you and Stephen
McNicholl will be a force to be reckoned with :-)

--
Dylan Smith, Port St Mary, Isle of Man
Flying: http://www.dylansmith.net
Oolite-Linux: an Elite tribute: http://oolite-linux.berlios.de
Frontier Elite Universe: http://www.alioth.net

[Doug]

Fine, just don't teach them to land on "zero eight" or tell them that
the departure (straight out from the runway) is "upwind". Also, "cross
controlled" stalls aren't the bad ones, it's stalls in a skid that flip
you over on your back. Might teach them something about the importance
of leaning and how and when to do it. And on most engines there is
nothing wrong with "oversquare".

As for Class B airport, you are technically correct, although Ketchikan
is neither (I guess the exception prooves the rule). But it's a LOT
easier to say "Las Vegas is a Class B airport" than to say "Las Vegas
is a towered airport (duh?), with overlying Class B airspace".
Somethings get said and people know what you mean. I don't see the
harm.

[Stubby]

Roy Smith wrote:
> wrote:
>
>> Now show me where in the Aeronautical Information Manual
>> (AIM) or an FAA Approved government publication that mentions a class
>> B,C,D Airport. You will not find it...
>
> You can find a few at http://tinyurl.com/n5vuv
>
> You are correct that "Towered airport with Class B Airspace designated for
> it" is technically more correct than "Class B Airport", but this is a nit.
> When you say, "Class B Airport", everybody knows what you're talking about,
> and that's all that really matters.
>
> And, anyway, everybody knows that:
>
>> Any of you who have thorough knowledge and understanding of
>> Airports will know that there are only two kinds of Airports in all of
>> our National Airspace System (NAS). There is Towered and Non-Towered
>> Airports.
>
> Is incorrect. The two types of airports are those where you can get a good
> burger and a coke for under $10, and those where you can't.

I heard there are two types of people: those that divide things in two
and those who don't.

[Gary]

>
> I heard there are two types of people: those that divide things in two
> and those who don't.

There are three types of people, actually. Those who can count, and
those who can't.

[Jose]

> If you want to go stand in line with the people splitting hairs over
> "biannual" versus "biennial"...

Actually, that's not a hair, that's a pretty fat rope. Confusing
multplication with division (except in cellular biology) is more in line
with that one.

Jose
--
Money: what you need when you run out of brains.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Steve Foley]

I disagree. If you look at a sectional, you will see many different symbols
representing the various kinds of airports.

The different symbols that come to mind are:

Color coded - blue vs magenta.

A solid circle vs an empty circle, indicating paved vs unpaved

With 'nubs' vs without 'nubs', indicating fuel available vs fuel not
available.

Therefore, I submit there are eight different 'kinds' of airports:

Towered, paved, with fuel.
Towered, paved, without fuel.
Towered, unpaved, with fuel.
Towered, unpaved, without fuel.
Non-towered, paved, with fuel.
Non-towered, paved, without fuel.
Non-towered, unpaved, with fuel.
Non-towered, unpaved, without fuel.

Unless you consider lighted vs unlighted, which would make it 16 kinds.

Or maybe open vs closed - making it 32.


> wrote in message
oups.com...
> Any of you who have thorough knowledge and understanding of
> Airports will know that there are only two kinds of Airports in all of
> our National Airspace System (NAS). There is Towered and Non-Towered
> Airports.

[Steve Foley]

My son tells me there are 10 kinds of people. Those who understand binary
numbers, and those who don't.

"Gary" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> >
> > I heard there are two types of people: those that divide things in two
> > and those who don't.
>
> There are three types of people, actually. Those who can count, and
> those who can't.
>

[Dylan Smith]

On 2006-03-15, Steve Foley > wrote:
> Therefore, I submit there are eight different 'kinds' of airports:
>
> Towered, paved, with fuel.
> Towered, paved, without fuel.
> Towered, unpaved, with fuel.
> Towered, unpaved, without fuel.
> Non-towered, paved, with fuel.
> Non-towered, paved, without fuel.
> Non-towered, unpaved, with fuel.
> Non-towered, unpaved, without fuel.
>
> Unless you consider lighted vs unlighted, which would make it 16 kinds.
>
> Or maybe open vs closed - making it 32.

On a point of pedantry - making it 18. A closed airport will neither be
lit nor towered nor fuel available by definition :-)

--
Dylan Smith, Port St Mary, Isle of Man
Flying: http://www.dylansmith.net
Oolite-Linux: an Elite tribute: http://oolite-linux.berlios.de
Frontier Elite Universe: http://www.alioth.net

[Steve Foley]

OK, but if we go by the markings on the sectional, it's only 17. There
appears to be no distinction for paved vs unpaved closed airports.

I suppose we could add private to the list. Those also have no indication of
pavement, lighting, for fuel, or tower, so I guess we're back to 18.

Oh wait ... we forgot heliports.......

"Dylan Smith" > wrote in message
...
> On 2006-03-15, Steve Foley > wrote:
> > Therefore, I submit there are eight different 'kinds' of airports:
> >
> > Towered, paved, with fuel.
> > Towered, paved, without fuel.
> > Towered, unpaved, with fuel.
> > Towered, unpaved, without fuel.
> > Non-towered, paved, with fuel.
> > Non-towered, paved, without fuel.
> > Non-towered, unpaved, with fuel.
> > Non-towered, unpaved, without fuel.
> >
> > Unless you consider lighted vs unlighted, which would make it 16 kinds.
> >
> > Or maybe open vs closed - making it 32.
>
> On a point of pedantry - making it 18. A closed airport will neither be
> lit nor towered nor fuel available by definition :-)
>
> --
> Dylan Smith, Port St Mary, Isle of Man
> Flying: http://www.dylansmith.net
> Oolite-Linux: an Elite tribute: http://oolite-linux.berlios.de
> Frontier Elite Universe: http://www.alioth.net

[[email protected]]

Let me put it this way because this is another topic you mentioned. A
BFR. There is no such thing as a BFR. And when I hear other instructors
mention this I make sure I correct them. As a CFI there was a great
deal of time I spent covering the Fundamentals of Instruction (FOI).
One of the things I learned was the Law of Primacy. Here as an
Instructor this means that we should teach the material correctly so
that it has a long lasting effect on the student. 61.56 is called
Flight Review. No go do the right thing research it and read it, where
does it mention Biannual Flight Review. You'll find it doesn't, just
that a flight review must be every 24 calender months.

Cjamairway

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Dylan Smith" > wrote in message
...
>
> On a point of pedantry - making it 18. A closed airport will neither be
> lit nor towered nor fuel available by definition :-)
>

It's not unusual for northern airports to be closed during and after a heavy
snowfall. Towers remain staffed, lights remain on, and FBOs remain eager to
sell fuel.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

> wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> Let me put it this way because this is another topic you mentioned. A
> BFR. There is no such thing as a BFR. And when I hear other instructors
> mention this I make sure I correct them. As a CFI there was a great
> deal of time I spent covering the Fundamentals of Instruction (FOI).
> One of the things I learned was the Law of Primacy. Here as an
> Instructor this means that we should teach the material correctly so
> that it has a long lasting effect on the student. 61.56 is called
> Flight Review. No go do the right thing research it and read it, where
> does it mention Biannual Flight Review. You'll find it doesn't, just
> that a flight review must be every 24 calender months.
>

A flight review every 24 calendar months is a biennial flight review.

[Roy Smith]

In article >,
Stubby > wrote:
>
>
>Roy Smith wrote:
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Now show me where in the Aeronautical Information Manual
>>> (AIM) or an FAA Approved government publication that mentions a class
>>> B,C,D Airport. You will not find it...
>>
>> You can find a few at http://tinyurl.com/n5vuv
>>
>> You are correct that "Towered airport with Class B Airspace designated for
>> it" is technically more correct than "Class B Airport", but this is a nit.
>> When you say, "Class B Airport", everybody knows what you're talking about,
>> and that's all that really matters.
>>
>> And, anyway, everybody knows that:
>>
>>> Any of you who have thorough knowledge and understanding of
>>> Airports will know that there are only two kinds of Airports in all of
>>> our National Airspace System (NAS). There is Towered and Non-Towered
>>> Airports.
>>
>> Is incorrect. The two types of airports are those where you can get a good
>> burger and a coke for under $10, and those where you can't.
>
>I heard there are two types of people: those that divide things in two
>and those who don't.

Actually, there's 10 kinds of people. Those who understand binary,
and those who don't.

[Steve Foley]

Daley's waterfront park?

> wrote in message
ups.com...

> Now tell me what are you going to call a class Delta Airspace towered
> airport when it closes?
>

[Jose]

> However there is the Law of Primacy that states as an Instructor I
> should teach the right way from the beginning

Like =all= things, this is not absolute.

Sometimes colloquialisms are very useful learning tools, inasmuch as
they convey the essential meaning (once established) without the
formalisms that interfere with processing. If we are learning airport
and airspace classification, then it is necessary to be pedantic and
verbose, to ensure correctness. However, once that is understood, when
one is teaching something else, it is better to refer to a concept by
its abbreviated form than to continue to distract the student with
irrelevant pedantry.

Also, some terms change. You need to know all variations.

Jose
--
Money: what you need when you run out of brains.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

> wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> Lets get to the bottom of this.
> I constantly hear people refer to Airports as being class B,C or D
> Airports. Any of you who have thorough knowledge and understanding of
> Airports will know that there are only two kinds of Airports in all of
> our National Airspace System (NAS). There is Towered and Non-Towered
> Airports. We have Class A,B,C,D,E and G Airspace. The Airspace overlays
> the Airports. Now show me where in the Aeronautical Information Manual
> (AIM) or an FAA Approved government publication that mentions a class
> B,C,D Airport. You will not find it...
>

"Immediately after landing, and before beginning the critique, Linda asks
her student Brian to grade his performance for the day. Being asked to grade
himself is a new experience but he goes along with it. The flight scenario
had been a two-leg IFR scenario to a busy class B airport about 60 miles to
the east."

http://www.faa.gov/education_research/training/fits/training/generic/media/course_developers.pdf

[Steven P. McNicoll]

> wrote in message
ups.com...
>
> So the next time your talking about a specific environment say "its a
> class Delta with an operating control tower".
>
> Now tell me what are you going to call a class Delta Airspace towered
> airport when it closes?
>

A closed Delta Airspace towered airport is still a Delta Airspace towered
airport. Closing the airport for whatever reason during the time the tower
is open and the Class D surface area is in effect does not change the
airspace in any way.

[Steve Foley]

> wrote in message
oups.com...
> And when I hear other instructors mention this I make sure I correct them.

I bet this makes you really popular. Do you do this in front of their
students?

> As a CFI there was a great deal of time I spent covering the Fundamentals
of Instruction (FOI).

Shouldn't you have covered this BEFORE you became a CFI?

[Peter R.]

> wrote:

> So see, an instructor who teaches that
> there are class B,C or D airports is not performing to the CFI
> practical test standards. Airspace is classified with the new ABC.
> Airports are either towered or non-towered. Again not one official
> publication will mention otherwise.
>
> So the next time your talking about a specific environment say "its a
> class Delta with an operating control tower".

But, I am not an instructor. :)


--
Peter

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Jose" > wrote in message
et...
>
> Like =all= things, this is not absolute.
>

Tee Hee

[Marco Leon]

"Peter R." > wrote in message
...
>
> Not at all. I can vouch for Chad. He is a new, young, and talented CFI
at
> the flight school where I once trained and is very passionate about
> aviation.
>
> He is also new to newsgroups so give him a chance to become acclimated to
> this medium.

His first post came off as a bit confrontational--he'll fit right in! Chad
is of course technically correct but IMO, it's just more practical to call
them "Class B" airports. I'd love to correct everyone's pronunciation of
"papa," "tree," and "fife" but that wouldn't get me invited to too many
hangar parties :)

So Chad, what's your point of view on saying "with you" when you're handed
off to another controller?

Marco "ducking and hiding" Leon





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[Marco Leon]

That's not an "official" FAA publication. It's an example of a guide written
by a third party. Existence on the FAA's web servers is not a testament to
it being "official."

Marco


"Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote in message
link.net...
>
> > wrote in message
> oups.com...
> >
> > Lets get to the bottom of this.
> > I constantly hear people refer to Airports as being class B,C or D
> > Airports. Any of you who have thorough knowledge and understanding of
> > Airports will know that there are only two kinds of Airports in all of
> > our National Airspace System (NAS). There is Towered and Non-Towered
> > Airports. We have Class A,B,C,D,E and G Airspace. The Airspace overlays
> > the Airports. Now show me where in the Aeronautical Information Manual
> > (AIM) or an FAA Approved government publication that mentions a class
> > B,C,D Airport. You will not find it...
> >
>
> "Immediately after landing, and before beginning the critique, Linda asks
> her student Brian to grade his performance for the day. Being asked to
grade
> himself is a new experience but he goes along with it. The flight scenario
> had been a two-leg IFR scenario to a busy class B airport about 60 miles
to
> the east."
>
>
http://www.faa.gov/education_research/training/fits/training/generic/media/course_developers.pdf
>
>



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[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Marco Leon" <mmleon(at)yahoo.com> wrote in message
...
>
> That's not an "official" FAA publication. It's an example of a guide
> written
> by a third party. Existence on the FAA's web servers is not a testament to
> it being "official."
>

What makes an FAA publication "official"?

The challenge was not to find an "official" FAA publication, it was to find
an FAA "approved" publication. The word "official" does not appear anywhere
in Cjamairway's message. Publishing on the FAA web site and stamping the
first page with the FAA seal sure looks like FAA approval to me.

[Allen]

> wrote in message
oups.com...
> Let me put it this way because this is another topic you mentioned. A
> BFR. There is no such thing as a BFR. And when I hear other instructors
> mention this I make sure I correct them. As a CFI there was a great
> deal of time I spent covering the Fundamentals of Instruction (FOI).
> One of the things I learned was the Law of Primacy. Here as an
> Instructor this means that we should teach the material correctly so
> that it has a long lasting effect on the student. 61.56 is called
> Flight Review. No go do the right thing research it and read it, where
> does it mention Biannual Flight Review. You'll find it doesn't, just
> that a flight review must be every 24 calender months.
>
> Cjamairway

A biannual event happens twice a year: We make a biannual visit to the
in-laws: once at Christmas and again in the summer. A biennial event happens
every two years: The school was due for its biennial inspection. (A biennial
plant lasts two years.)

Be careful what you are teaching. If you hold yourself out as an expert you
must know your stuff!

Allen (who knows a little about a lot of things, but not a lot about any one
thing).

[Marco Leon]

Well it isn't simply because the FAA has it on their website.


"Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote in message
link.net...
>
> "Marco Leon" <mmleon(at)yahoo.com> wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > That's not an "official" FAA publication. It's an example of a guide
> > written
> > by a third party. Existence on the FAA's web servers is not a testament
to
> > it being "official."
> >
>
> What makes an FAA publication "official"?
>
> The challenge was not to find an "official" FAA publication, it was to
find
> an FAA "approved" publication. The word "official" does not appear
anywhere
> in Cjamairway's message. Publishing on the FAA web site and stamping the
> first page with the FAA seal sure looks like FAA approval to me.
>
>



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[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Marco Leon" <mmleon(at)yahoo.com> wrote in message
...
>
> Well it isn't simply because the FAA has it on their website.
>

Why not? Why would the FAA have it on their website if they did not approve
of it?

[Doug]

I agree. The tower airports you gotta talk to Roger, the non-towered
ones you just come on in!

[Andrew Sarangan]

wrote:
> Lets get to the bottom of this.
> I constantly hear people refer to Airports as being class B,C or D
> Airports. Any of you who have thorough knowledge and understanding of
> Airports will know that there are only two kinds of Airports in all of
> our National Airspace System (NAS). There is Towered and Non-Towered
> Airports. We have Class A,B,C,D,E and G Airspace. The Airspace overlays
> the Airports. Now show me where in the Aeronautical Information Manual
> (AIM) or an FAA Approved government publication that mentions a class
> B,C,D Airport. You will not find it...
>
> Take the time and choose your words carefully.
>
> Cjamairway


When you are taxiing at Atlanta Hartsfield you are in class B airspace.
FAA definitions aside, whats wrong with calling it a Class B airport?

In fact, the overlying airspace conveys much more information about the
airport than whether it is towered or not.

Atlanta Hartsfield and Muncie, Indiana are both towered airports, but
they are hardly the same thing.

[Peter Duniho]

"Jose" > wrote in message
. ..
>> If you want to go stand in line with the people splitting hairs over
>> "biannual" versus "biennial"...
>
> Actually, that's not a hair, that's a pretty fat rope. Confusing
> multplication with division (except in cellular biology) is more in line
> with that one.

Sorry, wrong answer. The dictionary definition of "biannual" allows for
both the "half" and "every two" interpretation.

If you want a language that has no such ambiguities, you'll have to abandon
English. Like it or not, there are a number of examples of words that can
be used with two or more entirely different meanings. "Biannual" is one of
them, and in one use it is synonymous with "biennial".

Pete

[Peter Duniho]

> wrote in message
oups.com...
> Let me put it this way because this is another topic you mentioned. A
> BFR. There is no such thing as a BFR.

You're just cementing your reputation. And frankly, from here it's not
looking good.

> [...] No go do the right thing research it and read it, where
> does it mention Biannual Flight Review.

"Biennial". :p

In any case, just because the phrase "biennial flight review" is no longer
used in the FARs, that does not mean that there is no such thing as a
"biennial flight review". Believe it or not, pilots use vocabulary words
that do not appear in the official FAA documents.

I'm sure your enthusiasm will serve you well, and as a young, newly
certificated flight instructor, I'm sure you impress yourself with your
strict adherence to all things FAR. But mark my words, if you're still
keeping this up twenty years from now, you're gonna be an grumpy, old man.

Pete

[Andrew Sarangan]

wrote:
> Let me put it this way because this is another topic you mentioned. A
> BFR. There is no such thing as a BFR. And when I hear other instructors
> mention this I make sure I correct them. As a CFI there was a great
> deal of time I spent covering the Fundamentals of Instruction (FOI).
> One of the things I learned was the Law of Primacy. Here as an
> Instructor this means that we should teach the material correctly so
> that it has a long lasting effect on the student. 61.56 is called
> Flight Review. No go do the right thing research it and read it, where
> does it mention Biannual Flight Review. You'll find it doesn't, just
> that a flight review must be every 24 calender months.
>
> Cjamairway


BFR may not be the term used in the FAR, but who says we have to speak
the same language used in the FAR? Everyone knows what it means.

If you are looking for things to be pedantic about, there are more
useful things you could do in aviation instead of worrying about
terminology.

[Andrew Sarangan]

Steve Foley wrote:
> I disagree. If you look at a sectional, you will see many different symbols
> representing the various kinds of airports.
>
> The different symbols that come to mind are:
>
> Color coded - blue vs magenta.
>
> A solid circle vs an empty circle, indicating paved vs unpaved
>
> With 'nubs' vs without 'nubs', indicating fuel available vs fuel not
> available.
>
> Therefore, I submit there are eight different 'kinds' of airports:
>
> Towered, paved, with fuel.
> Towered, paved, without fuel.
> Towered, unpaved, with fuel.
> Towered, unpaved, without fuel.
> Non-towered, paved, with fuel.
> Non-towered, paved, without fuel.
> Non-towered, unpaved, with fuel.
> Non-towered, unpaved, without fuel.
>
> Unless you consider lighted vs unlighted, which would make it 16 kinds.
>
> Or maybe open vs closed - making it 32.
>
>

Private vs public would make it 64.

Airports with runways longer than 8069ft would make it 128 different
types.

If you consider heliports, gliderports, balloonports, seaplane base
etc.. now you have something like 4096 different types of airports.

[Jose]

> Sorry, wrong answer. The dictionary definition of "biannual" allows for
> both the "half" and "every two" interpretation.

Then you need a new dictionary. Unlike "flammable" and "inflammable",
the use of "biannual" for "every two years" is incorrect. Perhaps if
enough people persist in mangling the language, it will become accepted
by the general educated populace with that meaning, but until that
happens, it just ain't right.

Jose
(yes, I know of "ain't"'s long history)
--
Money: what you need when you run out of brains.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Jose]

> If you consider heliports, gliderports, balloonports, seaplane base
> etc.. now you have something like 4096 different types of airports.

I'll betcha there are more types of airports than there are airports.

Jose
--
Money: what you need when you run out of brains.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Skylune]

by "Peter Duniho" > Mar 15, 2006 at 11:43 AM

[Andrew Sarangan]

Jose wrote:
> > If you consider heliports, gliderports, balloonports, seaplane base
> > etc.. now you have something like 4096 different types of airports.
>
> I'll betcha there are more types of airports than there are airports.
>
> Jose
> --
> Money: what you need when you run out of brains.
> for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

I am sure you are right because I can't imagine a paved seaplane base.

[Skylune]

by Jose > Mar 15, 2006 at 08:13 PM


> Sorry, wrong answer. The dictionary definition of "biannual" allows for

> both the "half" and "every two" interpretation.

Then you need a new dictionary. Unlike "flammable" and "inflammable",
the use of "biannual" for "every two years" is incorrect. Perhaps if
enough people persist in mangling the language, it will become accepted
by the general educated populace with that meaning, but until that
happens, it just ain't right.

Jose
(yes, I know of "ain't"'s long history)

<<

Well, the definitions according to the American College Heritage
Dictionary are unambiguous. But, after checking the Rutgers.edu grammar
website (which the AOPA writers really should bookmark, and reference
often), there does seem to exist some confusion:


http://andromeda.rutgers.edu/~jlynch/Writing/b.html

Interesting.....

[Marco Leon]

"Peter Duniho" > wrote in message
...
>
> I'm sure your enthusiasm will serve you well, and as a young, newly
> certificated flight instructor, I'm sure you impress yourself with your
> strict adherence to all things FAR. But mark my words, if you're still
> keeping this up twenty years from now, you're gonna be an grumpy, old man.

....or an auditor, a lawyer, or quality assurance rep for the federal gov't
:)



Posted Via Usenet.com Premium Usenet Newsgroup Services
----------------------------------------------------------
** SPEED ** RETENTION ** COMPLETION ** ANONYMITY **
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[Peter Duniho]

"Jose" > wrote in message
. net...
>> Sorry, wrong answer. The dictionary definition of "biannual" allows for
>> both the "half" and "every two" interpretation.
>
> Then you need a new dictionary.

lol...

"If you don't like the answer, blame the reference."

Too bad Jose. You don't get to pick and choose my dictionary based on what
YOU think it ought to read.

> [...] Perhaps if enough people persist in mangling the language, it will
> become accepted by the general educated populace with that meaning

For better or worse, that's exactly how language evolves. Frankly, I don't
like it any more than you do, but I don't have any control over it, nor do
you.

> but until that happens, it just ain't right.

Sadly for you, it has already happened to "biannual". It will eventually
happen to other words dear to me (such as "comprise", which some
dictionaries are already starting to acknowledge as a synonym for
"compose"), but this race has already run, and "biannual" lost.

Pete

[Steve Foley]

Alton Bay in NH. They plow the lake in the winter and land there. I suppose
one could pave it.


"Andrew Sarangan" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> Jose wrote:
> > > If you consider heliports, gliderports, balloonports, seaplane base
> > > etc.. now you have something like 4096 different types of airports.
> >
> > I'll betcha there are more types of airports than there are airports.
> >
> > Jose
> > --
> > Money: what you need when you run out of brains.
> > for Email, make the obvious change in the address.
>
> I am sure you are right because I can't imagine a paved seaplane base.
>

[Jose]

> For better or worse, that's exactly how language evolves.

Yes, you are right. But there is a time, between when the word is used
one way, and when it is accepted as meaning something else, where such
usage, is just wrong. Sometimes the barbarians can be beaten back,
sometimes not. But the effort must be made, lest all words mean
anything, and nothing.

Jose
--
Money: what you need when you run out of brains.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Peter Duniho]

"Jose" > wrote in message
om...
> [...] Sometimes the barbarians can be beaten back, sometimes not.

The barbarians can NEVER be beaten back. There are way too many of them,
and they didn't pay attention in English class.

[Bob Noel]

In article <L9%Rf.4390$Ub.475@trndny07>,
"Steve Foley" > wrote:

> Alton Bay in NH. They plow the lake in the winter and land there. I suppose
> one could pave it.

or at least have a prepared surface (e.g., WWII runways constructed from
planking or plates or whatever it was...)

--
Bob Noel
Looking for a sig the
lawyers will hate

[Roy Smith]

In article . com>,
Andrew Sarangan > wrote:
>
>Jose wrote:
>> > If you consider heliports, gliderports, balloonports, seaplane base
>> > etc.. now you have something like 4096 different types of airports.
>>
>> I'll betcha there are more types of airports than there are airports.
>>
>> Jose
>> --
>> Money: what you need when you run out of brains.
>> for Email, make the obvious change in the address.
>
>I am sure you are right because I can't imagine a paved seaplane base.
>

There are airports with paved runways that also have water landing
areas. X47, for example.

[Tim Nunes]

""""A closed Delta Airspace towered airport is still a Delta Airspace
towered
airport. Closing the airport for whatever reason during the time the
tower
is open and the Class D surface area is in effect does not change the
airspace in any way.""""

I cannot tell if you are talking about closing the airport, or closing
the tower. If you are talking about closing the tower (airport stays
open), then you are wrong.

In order to enter "Class D" airspace, you need two way radio
communications. How would you satisfy this requirement if the tower
was closed? Talk to the line guys at the FBO? No. If you notice on a
VFR Sectional Chart, the class D airspace is usually also surrounded by
a fading magenta ring, indicating Class E down to 700' AGL. There
should also be a note near the Class D airspace that says "See
NOTAMS/Directory for Class D eff hrs," meaning the airspace closes when
the tower closes. The NOTAMS/Directory will tell you what time this
happens.

This is much more common than you may think. It happens with some
Class C airspace as well. Chattanooga, TN is one example that I can
think of.

-Tim

[Peter Duniho]

"Tim Nunes" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> I cannot tell if you are talking about closing the airport, or closing
> the tower.

It's quite clear from his post (for once :) ) that he is speaking of closing
the airport, not the tower. That is why he wrote things like "a
closed...towered airport", and "closing the airport...during the time the
tower is open".

How would you "close the airport" during the time the tower is open if
"close the airport" actually meant "close the tower"?

> [...]
> This is much more common than you may think. It happens with some
> Class C airspace as well. Chattanooga, TN is one example that I can
> think of.

Rest assured, Steven is *quite* familiar with the concept of part-time ATC
positions. As much as he drives most of us batty some times, there are few
issues regarding ATC that he doesn't know more about than anyone else
posting here (and he would never admit even to those few).

Pete

[Jim Macklin]

The airport manager can close an airport by sending the
nearest FSS a notice. If the closing of the airport meets
the standard, an FTC Notam will be issued, perhaps notam D.



"Peter Duniho" > wrote in
message ...
| "Tim Nunes" > wrote in message
|
ups.com...
| > I cannot tell if you are talking about closing the
airport, or closing
| > the tower.
|
| It's quite clear from his post (for once :) ) that he is
speaking of closing
| the airport, not the tower. That is why he wrote things
like "a
| closed...towered airport", and "closing the
airport...during the time the
| tower is open".
|
| How would you "close the airport" during the time the
tower is open if
| "close the airport" actually meant "close the tower"?
|
| > [...]
| > This is much more common than you may think. It happens
with some
| > Class C airspace as well. Chattanooga, TN is one
example that I can
| > think of.
|
| Rest assured, Steven is *quite* familiar with the concept
of part-time ATC
| positions. As much as he drives most of us batty some
times, there are few
| issues regarding ATC that he doesn't know more about than
anyone else
| posting here (and he would never admit even to those few).
|
| Pete
|
|

[Peter Duniho]

"Jim Macklin" > wrote in message
news:JZ1Sf.117543$QW2.78191@dukeread08...
> The airport manager can close an airport by sending the
> nearest FSS a notice. If the closing of the airport meets
> the standard, an FTC Notam will be issued, perhaps notam D.

This is relevant to my post how?

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Tim Nunes" > wrote in message
ups.com...
>
> """"A closed Delta Airspace towered airport is still a Delta Airspace
> towered
> airport. Closing the airport for whatever reason during the time the
> tower
> is open and the Class D surface area is in effect does not change the
> airspace in any way.""""
>
> I cannot tell if you are talking about closing the airport, or closing
> the tower.
>

So you couldn't tell I was talking about closing the airport from "a closed
Delta Airspace towered airport" or "closing the airport for whatever
reason"? I don't see how it could have been said more clearly.


>
> If you are talking about closing the tower (airport stays
> open), then you are wrong.
>

I'm not wrong.


>
> In order to enter "Class D" airspace, you need two way radio
> communications.
>

Unless otherwise authorized or required by the ATC facility having
jurisdiction over the Class D airspace area.


>
> How would you satisfy this requirement if the tower was closed?
>

Outside of the tower hours of operation the airspace will be Class E or
Class G.


>
> If you notice on a VFR Sectional Chart, the class D airspace is usually
> also surrounded by a fading magenta ring, indicating Class E down to 700'
> AGL.
>

It's called magenta vignette, and it has nothing to do with the Class D
airspace.


>
> There
> should also be a note near the Class D airspace that says "See
> NOTAMS/Directory for Class D eff hrs," meaning the airspace closes when
> the tower closes. The NOTAMS/Directory will tell you what time this
> happens.
>
> This is much more common than you may think.
>

No, it's exactly as common as I think.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Jim Macklin" > wrote in message
news:JZ1Sf.117543$QW2.78191@dukeread08...
>
> The airport manager can close an airport by sending the
> nearest FSS a notice. If the closing of the airport meets
> the standard, an FTC Notam will be issued, perhaps notam D.
>

The Federal Trade Commission issues NOTAMs?

[Jim Macklin]

Sorry about the typo, FDC Flight Data Center issues IFR
Notams,


"Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote in
message
link.net...
|
| "Jim Macklin" > wrote
in message
| news:JZ1Sf.117543$QW2.78191@dukeread08...
| >
| > The airport manager can close an airport by sending the
| > nearest FSS a notice. If the closing of the airport
meets
| > the standard, an FTC Notam will be issued, perhaps notam
D.
| >
|
| The Federal Trade Commission issues NOTAMs?
|
|

[AJ]

> >Any of you who have thorough knowledge and understanding of
> >Airports will know that there are only two kinds of Airports in all of
> >our National Airspace System (NAS). There is Towered and Non-Towered
> >Airports.

> Is incorrect. The two types of airports are those where you can get a good
> burger and a coke for under $10, and those where you can't.

Can you list a few in New Jersey?

AJ

[Bob Martin]

"Lets get to the bottom of this.
I constantly hear people refer to Airports as being class B,C or D
Airports. Any of you who have thorough knowledge and understanding of
Airports will know that there are only two kinds of Airports in all of
our National Airspace System (NAS). There is Towered and Non-Towered
Airports."

<snip>

Are you the same guy who complained people used the term "automotive
engineer" incorrectly by referring to engineers who worked on cars?
His claim was that the term implies an engineer who works on any
self-propelled vehicle. Maybe an etymologist would agree, but when
"automobile" and "automotive" are pretty much universally understood to
mean cars and the like, the distinciton is useful.

And, by the way, it should be "There _are_ Towered and Non-Towered",
not "There is..."

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Jim Macklin" > wrote in message
news:q88Sf.117617$QW2.45324@dukeread08...
>
> Sorry about the typo, FDC Flight Data Center issues IFR Notams,
>

What's an IFR NOTAM?

[Gig 601XL Builder]

Jose,


bi·an·nu·al (bi-an'yu-?l)
adj.
1.. Happening twice each year; semiannual.
2.. Occurring every two years; biennial.

biannual
One entry found for biannual. Main Entry: bi·an·nu·al
Pronunciation: (")bI-'an-y&(-w&)l
Function: adjective
1 : occurring twice a year
2 : BIENNIAL 1
usage see BI-
- bi·an·nu·al·ly adverb



"Jose" > wrote in message
. net...
>> Sorry, wrong answer. The dictionary definition of "biannual" allows for
>> both the "half" and "every two" interpretation.
>
> Then you need a new dictionary. Unlike "flammable" and "inflammable", the
> use of "biannual" for "every two years" is incorrect. Perhaps if enough
> people persist in mangling the language, it will become accepted by the
> general educated populace with that meaning, but until that happens, it
> just ain't right.
>
> Jose
> (yes, I know of "ain't"'s long history)
> --
> Money: what you need when you run out of brains.
> for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Jose]

> bi·an·nu·al (bi-an'yu-?l)
> adj.
> 1.. Happening twice each year; semiannual.
> 2.. Occurring every two years; biennial.

Barbarians at the door!

What are we going to do when we need words that actually =mean= things? :)

Jose
--
Money: what you need when you run out of brains.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Allen]

"Jose" > wrote in message
m...
>> bi·an·nu·al (bi-an'yu-?l)
>> adj.
>> 1.. Happening twice each year; semiannual.
>> 2.. Occurring every two years; biennial.
>
> Barbarians at the door!
>
> What are we going to do when we need words that actually =mean= things?
> :)
>
> Jose

Jus maak sumptin-you know-up, like whuts wrong wit dat?

allen

[Don Tuite]

On Thu, 16 Mar 2006 20:43:18 GMT, Jose >
wrote:

>Barbarians at the door!
>
>What are we going to do when we need words that actually =mean= things? :)
>
Steer with an even hand if you must go there. Down that course lie
the Scylla of the French Academy and Charybdis of the Ministry of
Truth.

Don (Who's not sure that metaphor doesn't need some more work.)

[ben]

On Tue, 14 Mar 2006 20:29:44 -0600, > wrote:

> Lets get to the bottom of this.
> I constantly hear people refer to Airports as being class B,C or D
> Airports. Any of you who have thorough knowledge and understanding of
> Airports will know that there are only two kinds of Airports in all of
> our National Airspace System (NAS). There is Towered and Non-Towered
> Airports. We have Class A,B,C,D,E and G Airspace. The Airspace overlays
> the Airports. Now show me where in the Aeronautical Information Manual
> (AIM) or an FAA Approved government publication that mentions a class
> B,C,D Airport. You will not find it...
>
> Take the time and choose your words carefully.


I hope that along with teaching your students the importance of being
clear, you make some time to cover "the danger of the downwind turn".



--
Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/

[Peter R.]

ben > wrote:

> I hope that along with teaching your students the importance of being
> clear, you make some time to cover "the danger of the downwind turn".

That joke would have probably been more humorous had you posted it when
this thread was still active, rather than wait the three weeks to think it
up.


--
Peter