Would you fly this Aircraft?

[C J Southern]

I'd be interested in "go/no-go" opinions of others, based solely on the
following information ...

"Naturally aspirated, carburated, light twin (C172 engines) - hasn't been
flown for 3 weeks - at the conclusion of last flight was fueled to the max.
Has since been observed to have fuel dripping from the right-hand engine
nacelle. Has been checkd by engineer who has put it down to "full tanks +
volume change due to temperature changes".

No other information available.

My initial thought was "why wouldn't the excess fuel get forced out through
the tank vents, rather than through "something" within the engine bay.

How many of you would / would not fly this aircraft based on the above info?

(I appreciate that more info would be nice, but it's all I have available).

Many thanks,

Cheers,

[Jim Macklin]

Based on that, I would NOT fly the aircraft UNTIL I had
personally inspected it to see what was leaking and from
where. If the float valve was leaking, the fuel level would
rise and over-flow from the vent on the carb. That is an
easy fix. If a fuel line is leaking, it is also an easy
fix. If a crack is in the float bowl, you replace the carb,
also easy but more expensive.

What is the history of the airplane before and on the last
flight? Was is parked with the fuel valves OFF or ON?


--
James H. Macklin
ATP,CFI,A&P

--
The people think the Constitution protects their rights;
But government sees it as an obstacle to be overcome.
some support
http://www.usdoj.gov/olc/secondamendment2.htm
See http://www.fija.org/ more about your rights and duties.


"C J Southern" > wrote in message
...
| I'd be interested in "go/no-go" opinions of others, based
solely on the
| following information ...
|
| "Naturally aspirated, carburated, light twin (C172
engines) - hasn't been
| flown for 3 weeks - at the conclusion of last flight was
fueled to the max.
| Has since been observed to have fuel dripping from the
right-hand engine
| nacelle. Has been checkd by engineer who has put it down
to "full tanks +
| volume change due to temperature changes".
|
| No other information available.
|
| My initial thought was "why wouldn't the excess fuel get
forced out through
| the tank vents, rather than through "something" within the
engine bay.
|
| How many of you would / would not fly this aircraft based
on the above info?
|
| (I appreciate that more info would be nice, but it's all I
have available).
|
| Many thanks,
|
| Cheers,
|
|
|

[C J Southern]

"Jim Macklin" > wrote in message
news:po6Tf.118036$QW2.75471@dukeread08...

> What is the history of the airplane before and on the last
> flight? Was is parked with the fuel valves OFF or ON?

Several years ago the aircraft showed the same symptoms - on that occasion
the leak was due to a fractured primer line.

Prior to the last flight there were no know issues.

Aircraft is always parked with fuel selectors ON, but following the leak the
right hand fuel selector has been turned off to stop any more leakage.

Personal investigation would be difficult - it would require removal of the
cowling (which presumably the engineer has done). If the cowling isn't
removed, then the only place you can see anything is via the oil filler
flap - which lets one see very very little.

[John Gaquin]

"C J Southern" > wrote in message
...
> I'd be interested in "go/no-go" opinions of others, based solely on the
> following information ...
>
> "Naturally aspirated, .......

Pointless question. Insufficient data for any kind of decision.
Presumably, you'd preflight the aircraft anyway, which obviates your above
question.

[Jose]

> The crux of the question really is "if the licenced and qualified engineer -
> who would get paid for fixing the problem if there was a problem - says that
> it's OK, does one trust that?

Do you trust the FBO? Why or why not? Follow the money.

> Part 2 of the question is "why would full tanks cause this - why wouldn't
> the excess get squeezed out the tank vents"?

That by itself, and no explanation from the "licensed and qualified
engineer" as to what caused it, would cause me to let somebody else be
the guinea pig.

Jose
--
Nothing takes longer than a shortcut.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[C J Southern]

"John Gaquin" > wrote in message
...

> Pointless question. Insufficient data for any kind of decision.
> Presumably, you'd preflight the aircraft anyway, which obviates your above
> question.

Not really. For me, the question is do I bother making the trip to the
airport, or do I wait for someone else to be the "canary in a cage". I've
also got a slightly nervous a passenger to consider - last thing I want is
an engine fire with a nervous passenger sitting right next to it.

The crux of the question really is "if the licenced and qualified engineer -
who would get paid for fixing the problem if there was a problem - says that
it's OK, does one trust that? As a pilot I won't be able to see where the
leak is coming from without removing the cowling - which is engineer only
territory.

Part 2 of the question is "why would full tanks cause this - why wouldn't
the excess get squeezed out the tank vents"?

[Jim Macklin]

Removal of the cowling is required and I would want to
either do it or be present. Fuel lines can leak due to
loose fittings, broken lines that crack from fatigue or
abrasion. I would want to visually inspect for any signs of
fuel stains and any damage.

The problem is not just possible engine failure, but fire
and explosion inside the wing or cowling.

Since mechanics {engineers} often won't fly in airplanes
they have performed maintenance upon, you, the PIC must be
able to inspect the airplane and satisfy yourself.


--
James H. Macklin
ATP,CFI,A&P

--
The people think the Constitution protects their rights;
But government sees it as an obstacle to be overcome.
some support
http://www.usdoj.gov/olc/secondamendment2.htm
See http://www.fija.org/ more about your rights and duties.


"C J Southern" > wrote in message
...
|
| "Jim Macklin" > wrote
in message
| news:po6Tf.118036$QW2.75471@dukeread08...
|
| > What is the history of the airplane before and on the
last
| > flight? Was is parked with the fuel valves OFF or ON?
|
| Several years ago the aircraft showed the same symptoms -
on that occasion
| the leak was due to a fractured primer line.
|
| Prior to the last flight there were no know issues.
|
| Aircraft is always parked with fuel selectors ON, but
following the leak the
| right hand fuel selector has been turned off to stop any
more leakage.
|
| Personal investigation would be difficult - it would
require removal of the
| cowling (which presumably the engineer has done). If the
cowling isn't
| removed, then the only place you can see anything is via
the oil filler
| flap - which lets one see very very little.
|
|
|

[Jim Macklin]

#2 Full tanks increase fuel pressure, a poor seal on the
carb float needle valve will leak and fill the bowl, which
then over-flows. The tanks have about 10-15% free space
even when full to allow parking on non-level surfaces before
the tank vents begin to drain.


--
James H. Macklin
ATP,CFI,A&P

--
The people think the Constitution protects their rights;
But government sees it as an obstacle to be overcome.
some support
http://www.usdoj.gov/olc/secondamendment2.htm
See http://www.fija.org/ more about your rights and duties.


"C J Southern" > wrote in message
...
|
| "John Gaquin" > wrote in message
| ...
|
| > Pointless question. Insufficient data for any kind of
decision.
| > Presumably, you'd preflight the aircraft anyway, which
obviates your above
| > question.
|
| Not really. For me, the question is do I bother making the
trip to the
| airport, or do I wait for someone else to be the "canary
in a cage". I've
| also got a slightly nervous a passenger to consider - last
thing I want is
| an engine fire with a nervous passenger sitting right next
to it.
|
| The crux of the question really is "if the licenced and
qualified engineer -
| who would get paid for fixing the problem if there was a
problem - says that
| it's OK, does one trust that? As a pilot I won't be able
to see where the
| leak is coming from without removing the cowling - which
is engineer only
| territory.
|
| Part 2 of the question is "why would full tanks cause
this - why wouldn't
| the excess get squeezed out the tank vents"?
|
|
|

[Jim Macklin]

Fuel has weight, a little less than .5 pounds per foot of
distance. A high wing Cessna has about 3-4 feet between the
fuel tank and the carb float. The float in the bowl is
raised by the liquid fuel in the bowl and by a lever,
presses the needle valve closed, stopping the flow of fuel
by gravity.

If the needle valve is leaking, there are two problems,
during engine operation, the fuel level will be too high
making the mixture too rich, although this can be manually
leaned, but the bowl may still fill to over-flow and this
will cause a lose of fuel which can result in an fuel
starvation accident.

When parked, it can cause a fire hazard and certainly waste
expensive fuel.

For a science experiment, take a straw and place it in a
glass of water and place your finger over the end of the
straw. When you lift the straw, the water won't flow out of
the straw because it isn't vented, but the pressure of the
water is due to the weight of the water caused by gravity.

Low wing airplanes and some high wing airplanes with carbs
also have fuel pumps, all fuel injected engines have pumps
because gravity is not powerful enough to operate the
injection system.


--
James H. Macklin
ATP,CFI,A&P

Just to explain this, ATP is Airline Transport Pilot
CFI, I have Gold Seal Airplane SMEL and Instrument
A&P Airframe and Powerplant mechanic



--
The people think the Constitution protects their rights;
But government sees it as an obstacle to be overcome.
some support
http://www.usdoj.gov/olc/secondamendment2.htm
See http://www.fija.org/ more about your rights and duties.


"Morgans" > wrote in message
...
|
| "Jim Macklin" > wrote
in message
| news:II7Tf.118045$QW2.26850@dukeread08...
| > #2 Full tanks increase fuel pressure, a poor seal on
the
| > carb float needle valve will leak and fill the bowl,
which
| > then over-flows. The tanks have about 10-15% free space
| > even when full to allow parking on non-level surfaces
before
| > the tank vents begin to drain.
|
| Hold the phone, here.
|
| You mean fuel tanks can build up pressure with functioning
vent lines?
| Hummm.
|
| If it is a bad (plugged) vent, then I'm not going to fly
it until *that*
| detail is fixed.
| --
| Jim in NC
|

[Morgans]

"John Gaquin" > wrote
>
> Pointless question. Insufficient data for any kind of decision.
> Presumably, you'd preflight the aircraft anyway, which obviates your above
> question.

Insufficient date, yes.

Do tell, what is preflighting the aircraft going to tell you, other than
there is fuel leaking from a "bad place (tm) and to get to the bottom of it,
some dissassembly will be required?

Sounds like a no go, to me.
--
Jim in NC

[Morgans]

"Jim Macklin" > wrote in message
news:II7Tf.118045$QW2.26850@dukeread08...
> #2 Full tanks increase fuel pressure, a poor seal on the
> carb float needle valve will leak and fill the bowl, which
> then over-flows. The tanks have about 10-15% free space
> even when full to allow parking on non-level surfaces before
> the tank vents begin to drain.

Hold the phone, here.

You mean fuel tanks can build up pressure with functioning vent lines?
Hummm.

If it is a bad (plugged) vent, then I'm not going to fly it until *that*
detail is fixed.
--
Jim in NC

[C J Southern]

"Jim Macklin" > wrote in message
news:C18Tf.118046$QW2.74826@dukeread08...

> Fuel has weight, a little less than .5 pounds per foot of
> distance. A high wing Cessna has about 3-4 feet between the
> fuel tank and the carb float. The float in the bowl is
> raised by the liquid fuel in the bowl and by a lever,
> presses the needle valve closed, stopping the flow of fuel
> by gravity.

In this case it's a low-wing twin - the engines are (probably) slightly
above the tanks - very little in it either way.

[C J Southern]

"Morgans" > wrote in message
...
>
> "John Gaquin" > wrote
> >
> > Pointless question. Insufficient data for any kind of decision.
> > Presumably, you'd preflight the aircraft anyway, which obviates your
above
> > question.
>
> Insufficient date, yes.
>
> Do tell, what is preflighting the aircraft going to tell you, other than
> there is fuel leaking from a "bad place (tm) and to get to the bottom of
it,
> some dissassembly will be required?
>
> Sounds like a no go, to me.

Just for the record, it wasn't hard for me to come to the same conclusion -
highlighting the difference between "proving it's safe" (which is what I
require) and "not proving that it's unsafe" (which is what I've been
offered).

[C J Southern]

"Jose" > wrote in message
. net...

> > The crux of the question really is "if the licenced and qualified
engineer -
> > who would get paid for fixing the problem if there was a problem - says
that
> > it's OK, does one trust that?
>
> Do you trust the FBO? Why or why not? Follow the money.

From a FBO position it's really not a "money thing" (I used to run the
outfit, and I know that that doesn't enter into it) - as far as trusting
engineers go, well, it's been my experience that they know their stuff
pretty well, but like all of us they make mistakes - and I've been around
the game long enough to have experienced many situations where the aircraft
has gone into the shop with 1 fault, and come out with 2 new ones - so I
guess you could say that a "healthy dose of suspicion goes a long way in
this business".

[Morgans]

"Jim Macklin" > wrote

> Fuel has weight, a little less than .5 pounds per foot of
> distance. A high wing Cessna has about 3-4 feet between the
> fuel tank and the carb float. The float in the bowl is
> raised by the liquid fuel in the bowl and by a lever,
> presses the needle valve closed, stopping the flow of fuel
> by gravity.

I know how all of that stuff works, but using you figure, it the tank is 6"
overfilled, it is going to have an increase of pressure of 1/4 psi?

If that puppy is leaking because of that, I would still park it, wouldn't
you?

Stuff like that can get worse, and cause all kinds of problems that I would
rather deal with on the ground.
--
Jim in NC

[Jim Macklin]

The first 100 hours on a brand new airplane, the first hour
after an inspection and the first 5 hours after maintenance
are times to be very extra cautious about the airplane, are
all the spark plugs properly torqued? Are the fuel lines
secure? Are the control cables routed and safetied?

Things that have happen to me personally on such airplanes,
just a sample.
Exhaust manifold broke the welds on one bank, this let the
exhaust drop into the air blast where it caused a lot of
vibration and would be blown back up, this cycle repeated
about 2 seconds. I was in a new airplane, carrying my first
passenger and about 10 miles from a landing. Almost 40 years
ago.
Test flying a Beech Duke that had just finished the annual
inspection, at about 12,000 feet the clamp that secures the
exhaust pipe to the turbocharger broke, which allowed the
hot exhaust gas to melt a very big hole in the cowling. All
I saw was a small spot on top of the left engine change
color, like the paint was a different shade of tan. Shut
down the left engine and returned for landing. The shop gad
wanted me to test fly it the night before, which wouldn't
have let me see the paint change color. A 1/2 inch fuel
line (stainless steel) was very close to the hot blast.

Tools left in the airplane become my property.



--
James H. Macklin
ATP,CFI,A&P

--
The people think the Constitution protects their rights;
But government sees it as an obstacle to be overcome.
some support
http://www.usdoj.gov/olc/secondamendment2.htm
See http://www.fija.org/ more about your rights and duties.


"C J Southern" > wrote in message
...
|
| "Jose" > wrote in message
| . net...
|
| > > The crux of the question really is "if the licenced
and qualified
| engineer -
| > > who would get paid for fixing the problem if there was
a problem - says
| that
| > > it's OK, does one trust that?
| >
| > Do you trust the FBO? Why or why not? Follow the
money.
|
| From a FBO position it's really not a "money thing" (I
used to run the
| outfit, and I know that that doesn't enter into it) - as
far as trusting
| engineers go, well, it's been my experience that they know
their stuff
| pretty well, but like all of us they make mistakes - and
I've been around
| the game long enough to have experienced many situations
where the aircraft
| has gone into the shop with 1 fault, and come out with 2
new ones - so I
| guess you could say that a "healthy dose of suspicion goes
a long way in
| this business".
|
|
|

[Jim Macklin]

Certainly, but sometime valves will seal at one pressure and
leak at very little more. The point is, no fuel leaks are
allowed. I've seen Piper PA 28 with fuel stains on the
selector valve inside the cockpit, being flown. The owner
was telling students it was OK.

I've seen airplanes with fuel stains at the wing root, on
the belly and just about everywhere, except maybe the top of
the tail. Fuel isn't supposed to leak. Even if the plane
is just over-filled, the free space in the tank should allow
for expansion if the plane is parked on level ground. Some
airplanes will transfer fuel from one wing to the other if
not parked on "level" ground.

But if the tank was empty and the valve had a full pound
less pressure and did not leak and did leak when just fueled
to full, it isn't an over-filled condition just the weight
of the normal fuel and a bad valve seat.


--
James H. Macklin
ATP,CFI,A&P

"Morgans" > wrote in message
...
|
| "Jim Macklin" > wrote
|
| > Fuel has weight, a little less than .5 pounds per foot
of
| > distance. A high wing Cessna has about 3-4 feet between
the
| > fuel tank and the carb float. The float in the bowl is
| > raised by the liquid fuel in the bowl and by a lever,
| > presses the needle valve closed, stopping the flow of
fuel
| > by gravity.
|
| I know how all of that stuff works, but using you figure,
it the tank is 6"
| overfilled, it is going to have an increase of pressure of
1/4 psi?
|
| If that puppy is leaking because of that, I would still
park it, wouldn't
| you?
|
| Stuff like that can get worse, and cause all kinds of
problems that I would
| rather deal with on the ground.
| --
| Jim in NC
|

[.Blueskies.]

"Jim Macklin" > wrote in message news:po6Tf.118036$QW2.75471@dukeread08...
> Based on that, I would NOT fly the aircraft UNTIL I had
> personally inspected it to see what was leaking and from
> where. If the float valve was leaking, the fuel level would
> rise and over-flow from the vent on the carb. That is an
> easy fix. If a fuel line is leaking, it is also an easy
> fix. If a crack is in the float bowl, you replace the carb,
> also easy but more expensive.
>
> What is the history of the airplane before and on the last
> flight? Was is parked with the fuel valves OFF or ON?
>
>
> --
> James H. Macklin
> ATP,CFI,A&P
>


Don't see how the carb float valve could be leaking; the mixture is at idle cutoff, right?

[Jose]

> Fuel has weight, a little less than .5 pounds per foot of
> distance.

I've never heard it expressed quantitatively thus. Could you elaborate?
Weight is a function of volume, and pressure would be a function of
height.

Jose
--
Nothing takes longer than a shortcut.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Jim Macklin]

Idle cutoff stops flow of fuel to the venturi/throat, but
the float valve stops the flow of fuel into the carb float
bowl.

--
James H. Macklin
ATP,CFI,A&P

--
The people think the Constitution protects their rights;
But government sees it as an obstacle to be overcome.
some support
http://www.usdoj.gov/olc/secondamendment2.htm
See http://www.fija.org/ more about your rights and duties.


".Blueskies." > wrote in
message
...
|
| "Jim Macklin" > wrote
in message news:po6Tf.118036$QW2.75471@dukeread08...
| > Based on that, I would NOT fly the aircraft UNTIL I had
| > personally inspected it to see what was leaking and from
| > where. If the float valve was leaking, the fuel level
would
| > rise and over-flow from the vent on the carb. That is
an
| > easy fix. If a fuel line is leaking, it is also an easy
| > fix. If a crack is in the float bowl, you replace the
carb,
| > also easy but more expensive.
| >
| > What is the history of the airplane before and on the
last
| > flight? Was is parked with the fuel valves OFF or ON?
| >
| >
| > --
| > James H. Macklin
| > ATP,CFI,A&P
| >
|
|
| Don't see how the carb float valve could be leaking; the
mixture is at idle cutoff, right?
|
|

[Jim Macklin]

weight is a function of density, volume does not matter when
pressure is measured in PSI.

"Jose" > wrote in message
m...
|> Fuel has weight, a little less than .5 pounds per foot of
| > distance.
|
| I've never heard it expressed quantitatively thus. Could
you elaborate?
| Weight is a function of volume, and pressure would be a
function of
| height.
|
| Jose
| --
| Nothing takes longer than a shortcut.
| for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[.Blueskies.]

"Jim Macklin" > wrote in message news:eqeTf.118075$QW2.13026@dukeread08...
> Idle cutoff stops flow of fuel to the venturi/throat, but
> the float valve stops the flow of fuel into the carb float
> bowl.
>
> --
> James H. Macklin
> ATP,CFI,A&P
>
>

OK, so the float bowl is always filled as far as the (good) float/needle allows it to be while the mixture control is
downstream of the float needle? Actually makes sense because the float is supposed to control the head pressure against
the carb jet, and putting a cutoff in front of the float would only cause the bowl level to lower with very slight
leaning due to the reduces head pressure. One of these days I'll get to mess around with one of these engines....

Thanks Jim...

[Jim Macklin]

I had a commercial pilots certificate for some time before I
attended A&P school [Spartan] and I learned that I didn't
know a lot of things about aircraft engines that I think a
pilot should know.


--
James H. Macklin
ATP,CFI,A&P

--
The people think the Constitution protects their rights;
But government sees it as an obstacle to be overcome.
some support
http://www.usdoj.gov/olc/secondamendment2.htm
See http://www.fija.org/ more about your rights and duties.


".Blueskies." > wrote in
message
t...
|
| "Jim Macklin" > wrote
in message news:eqeTf.118075$QW2.13026@dukeread08...
| > Idle cutoff stops flow of fuel to the venturi/throat,
but
| > the float valve stops the flow of fuel into the carb
float
| > bowl.
| >
| > --
| > James H. Macklin
| > ATP,CFI,A&P
| >
| >
|
| OK, so the float bowl is always filled as far as the
(good) float/needle allows it to be while the mixture
control is
| downstream of the float needle? Actually makes sense
because the float is supposed to control the head pressure
against
| the carb jet, and putting a cutoff in front of the float
would only cause the bowl level to lower with very slight
| leaning due to the reduces head pressure. One of these
days I'll get to mess around with one of these engines....
|
| Thanks Jim...
|
|

[John Gaquin]

"Jose" > wrote in message news:s8eTf.6791
>
> I've never heard it expressed quantitatively thus. Could you elaborate?
I think what he's referring to is called "head pressure".

[John Gaquin]

"C J Southern" > wrote in message
>
> Not really. For me, the question is do I bother making the trip to the
> airport, or do I wait for someone else to be the "canary in a cage". I've
> also got a slightly nervous a passenger to consider......

>
> The crux of the question really is .......

No, the crux of the question is this: why won't you, as putative PIC, just
make a decision? Why do you need a committee of people thoroughly
unfamiliar with the details to consult with and support you? You don't fly
an aircraft, particularly a single-pilot aircraft, by consensus. You're
clearly hesitant about the aircraft and don't really want to take it, but
you post to the NG in a way that says 'I'm bothered by this craft, but I
don't want anyone to think I'm a wuus'. Take it, or don't take it, but make
a decision. If there's not enough data to confirm safety, then don't take
it.

[John Gaquin]

"Jim Macklin" > wrote in

> .....If the float valve was leaking, the fuel level would
> rise

Not likely to happen on a low-wing twin. Maybe a Cessna single.

[Jose]

> weight is a function of density, volume does not matter when
> pressure is measured in PSI.

The density of gasoline changes much? Weight is mainly a function of
the quantity of matter present (mass) and the gravitational field it's
in. Given liquid gasoline and the earth, volume is a good stand-in for
weight.

Pressure depends on the height of a column of fluid in a gravitational
field. Is that what you meant?

Jose
--
Nothing takes longer than a shortcut.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Jim Macklin]

Who said this was a low-wing twin?



"John Gaquin" > wrote in message
...
|
| "Jim Macklin" > wrote
in
|
| > .....If the float valve was leaking, the fuel level
would
| > rise
|
| Not likely to happen on a low-wing twin. Maybe a Cessna
single.
|
|

[Jim Macklin]

Gasoline changes density with the blend and it also changes
with temperature. The "standard" 6 pounds per gallon (US)
is just an average. Yes, the distance the weight a fluid
(including air) acts under gravity determines the pressure.
Volume is a measure of space, density is a measure of mass
per unit space.


--
James H. Macklin
ATP,CFI,A&P

--
The people think the Constitution protects their rights;
But government sees it as an obstacle to be overcome.
some support
http://www.usdoj.gov/olc/secondamendment2.htm
See http://www.fija.org/ more about your rights and duties.


"Jose" > wrote in message
. net...
|> weight is a function of density, volume does not matter
when
| > pressure is measured in PSI.
|
| The density of gasoline changes much? Weight is mainly a
function of
| the quantity of matter present (mass) and the
gravitational field it's
| in. Given liquid gasoline and the earth, volume is a good
stand-in for
| weight.
|
| Pressure depends on the height of a column of fluid in a
gravitational
| field. Is that what you meant?
|
| Jose
| --
| Nothing takes longer than a shortcut.
| for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Peter Duniho]

"Jim Macklin" > wrote in message
news:BBgTf.118099$QW2.115471@dukeread08...
> Who said this was a low-wing twin?

Do you know of a high-wing twin that uses "C172 engines"? (as stated in the
original post)

[Peter Duniho]

"Jim Macklin" > wrote in message
news:BBgTf.118099$QW2.115471@dukeread08...
> Who said this was a low-wing twin?

Beside the fact that, in a subsequent post the OP actually explicitly stated
that the airplane is a low-wing twin (prior to John's post).

[John Gaquin]

"Jim Macklin" > wrote in

> Who said this was a low-wing twin?

Would it be a normally aspirated, carburetted, high-wing twin with a brace
of 140-160hp engines? You don't trip over them every day.

[Mike Schumann]

If you have a tank with a fixed amount of fuel, and the temperature rises,
the fuel will expand. However, the presure at the bottom of the fuel tank
will not increase if the tank is properly vented.

Mike Schumann

"Jim Macklin" > wrote in message
news:CBgTf.118100$QW2.94874@dukeread08...
> Gasoline changes density with the blend and it also changes
> with temperature. The "standard" 6 pounds per gallon (US)
> is just an average. Yes, the distance the weight a fluid
> (including air) acts under gravity determines the pressure.
> Volume is a measure of space, density is a measure of mass
> per unit space.
>
>
> --
> James H. Macklin
> ATP,CFI,A&P
>
> --
> The people think the Constitution protects their rights;
> But government sees it as an obstacle to be overcome.
> some support
> http://www.usdoj.gov/olc/secondamendment2.htm
> See http://www.fija.org/ more about your rights and duties.
>
>
> "Jose" > wrote in message
> . net...
> |> weight is a function of density, volume does not matter
> when
> | > pressure is measured in PSI.
> |
> | The density of gasoline changes much? Weight is mainly a
> function of
> | the quantity of matter present (mass) and the
> gravitational field it's
> | in. Given liquid gasoline and the earth, volume is a good
> stand-in for
> | weight.
> |
> | Pressure depends on the height of a column of fluid in a
> gravitational
> | field. Is that what you meant?
> |
> | Jose
> | --
> | Nothing takes longer than a shortcut.
> | for Email, make the obvious change in the address.
>
>

[Mike Schumann]

If you aren't sure it's OK then it is NOT OK.

Mike Schumann

"John Gaquin" > wrote in message
...
>
> "C J Southern" > wrote in message
>>
>> Not really. For me, the question is do I bother making the trip to the
>> airport, or do I wait for someone else to be the "canary in a cage". I've
>> also got a slightly nervous a passenger to consider......
>
>>
>> The crux of the question really is .......
>
> No, the crux of the question is this: why won't you, as putative PIC, just
> make a decision? Why do you need a committee of people thoroughly
> unfamiliar with the details to consult with and support you? You don't
> fly an aircraft, particularly a single-pilot aircraft, by consensus.
> You're clearly hesitant about the aircraft and don't really want to take
> it, but you post to the NG in a way that says 'I'm bothered by this
> craft, but I don't want anyone to think I'm a wuus'. Take it, or don't
> take it, but make a decision. If there's not enough data to confirm
> safety, then don't take it.
>

[Jim Macklin]

Champion Lancer


But I don't know of any twin in recent production that uses
any of the same type of engine that a Cessna 172 uses.


"Peter Duniho" > wrote in
message ...
| "Jim Macklin" > wrote
in message
| news:BBgTf.118099$QW2.115471@dukeread08...
| > Who said this was a low-wing twin?
|
| Do you know of a high-wing twin that uses "C172 engines"?
(as stated in the
| original post)
|
|

[Jim Macklin]

I didn't see that, did they also actually state the
make/model?


"Peter Duniho" > wrote in
message ...
| "Jim Macklin" > wrote
in message
| news:BBgTf.118099$QW2.115471@dukeread08...
| > Who said this was a low-wing twin?
|
| Beside the fact that, in a subsequent post the OP actually
explicitly stated
| that the airplane is a low-wing twin (prior to John's
post).
|
|

[george]

Jim Macklin wrote:
> Who said this was a low-wing twin?
>

No idea but there is always Cessnas Skymaster CLT if you want a
highwing twin :-)

[Peter Clark]

New Piper Seminole uses O-360's. Any O-360's in the 172's? I know of
IO-360s but don't know what the carb'd versions use.

On Sun, 19 Mar 2006 17:46:02 -0600, "Jim Macklin"
> wrote:

>Champion Lancer
>
>
>But I don't know of any twin in recent production that uses
>any of the same type of engine that a Cessna 172 uses.
>
>
>"Peter Duniho" > wrote in
>message ...
>| "Jim Macklin" > wrote
>in message
>| news:BBgTf.118099$QW2.115471@dukeread08...
>| > Who said this was a low-wing twin?
>|
>| Do you know of a high-wing twin that uses "C172 engines"?
>(as stated in the
>| original post)
>|
>|
>

[C J Southern]

"John Gaquin" > wrote in message
...
>
> "C J Southern" > wrote in message
> >
> > Not really. For me, the question is do I bother making the trip to the
> > airport, or do I wait for someone else to be the "canary in a cage".
I've
> > also got a slightly nervous a passenger to consider......
>
> >
> > The crux of the question really is .......
>
> No, the crux of the question is this: why won't you, as putative PIC, just
> make a decision? Why do you need a committee of people thoroughly
> unfamiliar with the details to consult with and support you? You don't
fly
> an aircraft, particularly a single-pilot aircraft, by consensus. You're
> clearly hesitant about the aircraft and don't really want to take it, but
> you post to the NG in a way that says 'I'm bothered by this craft, but I
> don't want anyone to think I'm a wuus'. Take it, or don't take it, but
make
> a decision. If there's not enough data to confirm safety, then don't take
> it.

You've still got the wrong end of the stick. The Question was "Would you fly
this aircraft?", not "Should I fly this aircraft?". I was never going to fly
it like that - however - that decision / position will no doubt cause
"somewhat of a debate in certain circles" - and as such I was interested as
to how many others would come to the conclusion I did, given the same
information I had - and it seems that the answer is "most of them". It's got
nothing to do with "hesitation or flying by committee" - the opportunity for
the flight had passed before I even wrote the original post.

Given that if you were here to inspect it then you'd not be able to see
where the leak was coming from, and would not be permitted to remove the
cowl then you'd have had the same info I've given here to make a go/no-go
decision. To me it's a no brainer, but I tell you what - I bet that aircraft
flies again with someone else PIC without any further investigation.

[C J Southern]

"Jim Macklin" > wrote in message
news:c3mTf.118220$QW2.71677@dukeread08...

> Champion Lancer
>
>
> But I don't know of any twin in recent production that uses
> any of the same type of engine that a Cessna 172 uses.

A Grumman American GA7 Cougar would be another example ...

[Jose]

> That's always my "chicken" stance. <G>
>
> I like to think that's why my friends LIKE flying with me.

My friends have said as much. On several occasions they have said that
their respect for me as a pilot was predicated more on what I will =not=
do, even in the face of pressure.

Jose
--
Nothing takes longer than a shortcut.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Dylan Smith]

On 2006-03-19, Jim Macklin <p51mustang> wrote:
> But I don't know of any twin in recent production that uses
> any of the same type of engine that a Cessna 172 uses.

Not in recent production, but very common amongst flight schools is the
good 'ol O-320 powered Apache. Not in recent production either - but the
Twin Comanche uses a very similar engine, with the exception of it being
injected - the IO-320.

--
Dylan Smith, Port St Mary, Isle of Man
Flying: http://www.dylansmith.net
Oolite-Linux: an Elite tribute: http://oolite-linux.berlios.de
Frontier Elite Universe: http://www.alioth.net