Kneeboards, etc.

[cpw]

I'm a newly minted PP-ASEL flying a C-182. I was wondering what
different solutions pilots have come up with for cockpit data and
checklist management. I've tried kneeboards and find them somewhat
limiting and limited. What do the rest of you do to manage
checklists, charts, airport info, etc?
Right now I'm flying VFR but plan on instrument training when I have
some more time under my belt. I'm sure the data management needs
change when flying IFR.
Thanks for any tips or suggestions.
CPW

[[email protected]]

On 19 Mar 2006 15:14:19 -0800, "cpw" > wrote:

>I'm a newly minted PP-ASEL flying a C-182. I was wondering what
>different solutions pilots have come up with for cockpit data and
>checklist management. I've tried kneeboards and find them somewhat
>limiting and limited. What do the rest of you do to manage
>checklists, charts, airport info, etc?
>Right now I'm flying VFR but plan on instrument training when I have
>some more time under my belt. I'm sure the data management needs
>change when flying IFR.
>Thanks for any tips or suggestions.
>CPW

I mostly fly a PA28 (or C172) and use a Tri-Fold kneeboard to carry
checklist, alternate approach charts, pens, pencil, plotter, etc. etc.
I also have a yoke mount clipboard for the flightplan and approach
plate in use with attachments for clock/timer, torch and spare
pen/pencils.

[john smith]

The nice thing about the 182 is the big space between the two front
seats. There is plenty of room to place a small duffle to hold anything
you need within easy reach.
I made my own flip-style checklist which I pick up and set down as I
need it.
I use a kneeboard to write frequencies, weather, clearances, etc.
I also keep a copy of my flight log attached to record all the
incidental times (start/stop, wheels on/wheels off, time arrived at fix,
etc.)
I fold my charts for the area/route I am flying and set them between the
seats when not looking at them.
A flight calculator, handheld radio and headlamp/flashlight are in the
bag between the seats along with spare batteries/battery packs.

[Doug]

I used a word processor and made my own customized checklist. After I
got it down just right I laminated it. I put it in the side pocket. For
a writing pad, I use a 1/2 size yellow pad (4 1/4 x 6 1/2). For charts
I got www.airchart.com VFR and IFR binder charts. I prefer the WACs, he
give s you the whole country in one easy package. For approach plates,
I use the bound govt ones (the pages dont come out which is good
because that means they are always where they should be, and the govt
ones are less expensive). I just put them on the floor when not on my
knee. I always have a couple of pens and a pad of stickies. I put my
heading into the heading bug, altitude into the altitude bug and freqs
into the radio. When things get busy, I have no time to write those
down. I do write down my route clearances.

You can try all the fancy kneeboards but I found I was better off
without them. Just more clutter. I'm kind of a minimalist, but you find
most pro pilots just use the pad of paper from the hotel and the charts
the way they come from the issuer.

[Jim Macklin]

With a stick, either center or side, a fancy military style
kneeboard is nice, with a control wheel, the kneeboard gets
in the way. For general use, I like the cheap vinyl
secretary 5x8 yellow pad with a clear plastic insert, which
can hold an approach plate. I write on the yellow pad and
stick a plate under the clear plastic. I use a Third Hand
clip from Sporty's to hold it on my thigh. It is light and
cheap and can be slid to the side out of the way.

There is room in the slot behind the pad for a couple of
plotters and pencils.


--
James H. Macklin
ATP,CFI,A&P

--
The people think the Constitution protects their rights;
But government sees it as an obstacle to be overcome.
some support
http://www.usdoj.gov/olc/secondamendment2.htm
See http://www.fija.org/ more about your rights and duties.


"Doug" > wrote in message
ups.com...
|I used a word processor and made my own customized
checklist. After I
| got it down just right I laminated it. I put it in the
side pocket. For
| a writing pad, I use a 1/2 size yellow pad (4 1/4 x 6
1/2). For charts
| I got www.airchart.com VFR and IFR binder charts. I prefer
the WACs, he
| give s you the whole country in one easy package. For
approach plates,
| I use the bound govt ones (the pages dont come out which
is good
| because that means they are always where they should be,
and the govt
| ones are less expensive). I just put them on the floor
when not on my
| knee. I always have a couple of pens and a pad of
stickies. I put my
| heading into the heading bug, altitude into the altitude
bug and freqs
| into the radio. When things get busy, I have no time to
write those
| down. I do write down my route clearances.
|
| You can try all the fancy kneeboards but I found I was
better off
| without them. Just more clutter. I'm kind of a minimalist,
but you find
| most pro pilots just use the pad of paper from the hotel
and the charts
| the way they come from the issuer.
|

[Dudley Henriques]

I'm not a fan of kneeboards when used in yoke equipped aircraft. I had a
friend killed demonstrating a P38 while wearing a kneeboard that was
considered a major contributing cause in the crash.
As for GA airplanes with yokes, I just don't like the distance equation
between the yoke and the kneeboard as the yoke comes aft in it's normal
travel for positive pitch.
It's a judgment call of course, and some pilots do use them and haven't
complained of issues, but my business is flight safety, and I always make it
a point to mention how I feel about kneeboards when asked, or when not asked
:-) if someone posts here about using them.
Just be extremely careful and aware of the possible control confliction
issue.
Dudley Henriques

"cpw" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> I'm a newly minted PP-ASEL flying a C-182. I was wondering what
> different solutions pilots have come up with for cockpit data and
> checklist management. I've tried kneeboards and find them somewhat
> limiting and limited. What do the rest of you do to manage
> checklists, charts, airport info, etc?
> Right now I'm flying VFR but plan on instrument training when I have
> some more time under my belt. I'm sure the data management needs
> change when flying IFR.
> Thanks for any tips or suggestions.
> CPW
>

[Andrew Sarangan]

cpw wrote:
> I'm a newly minted PP-ASEL flying a C-182. I was wondering what
> different solutions pilots have come up with for cockpit data and
> checklist management. I've tried kneeboards and find them somewhat
> limiting and limited. What do the rest of you do to manage
> checklists, charts, airport info, etc?
> Right now I'm flying VFR but plan on instrument training when I have
> some more time under my belt. I'm sure the data management needs
> change when flying IFR.
> Thanks for any tips or suggestions.
> CPW

I have tried numerous gizmos over the years, and I have learned through
this process that the ultimate cockpit organization comes from reducing
the number of items. These days for short VFR trips I don't carry
anything except a sectional. For IFR, it depend on the weather
condition. If the weather is VFR, I don't bother pulling an approach
chart out. Even an enroute chart is not absolutely essential because we
get radar vectored anyway. I am not saying don't carry all the other
stuff; you should keep them within reach, but they don't have to be
right there in front.

[Peter Duniho]

"cpw" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> I'm a newly minted PP-ASEL flying a C-182. I was wondering what
> different solutions pilots have come up with for cockpit data and
> checklist management. I've tried kneeboards and find them somewhat
> limiting and limited. What do the rest of you do to manage
> checklists, charts, airport info, etc?

I use a kneeboard. Freak accidents aside, it works quite well.

I own a fancier "lapboard", complete with a large plastic-covered area for
charts, a smaller clipboard suitable for notes and approach charts, and a
storage area for charts, pens, etc. I used it during my instrument
training, and for a little while after that, but I never did get used to it.
It always seemed like it was in the way more than it was helping. I haven't
used it in years.

The instrument charts in particular work quite well on a regular kneeboard,
and I find it easy to fold VFR charts for knee- or lap-top use as well. I
make sure my various charts and references for the flight are organized in
my flight bag (which is always close at hand), but only have the ones I
actually am using at the moment on my knee. As someone else mentioned,
keeping things to the bare minimum goes a long way to efficient use of the
space.

Pete

[[email protected]]

On Mon, 20 Mar 2006 01:28:57 GMT, "Dudley Henriques"
> wrote:

>I'm not a fan of kneeboards when used in yoke equipped aircraft. I had a
>friend killed demonstrating a P38 while wearing a kneeboard that was
>considered a major contributing cause in the crash.
>As for GA airplanes with yokes, I just don't like the distance equation
>between the yoke and the kneeboard as the yoke comes aft in it's normal
>travel for positive pitch.
>It's a judgment call of course, and some pilots do use them and haven't
>complained of issues, but my business is flight safety, and I always make it
>a point to mention how I feel about kneeboards when asked, or when not asked
>:-) if someone posts here about using them.
>Just be extremely careful and aware of the possible control confliction
>issue.
>Dudley Henriques
>

A very interesting reply Dudley. I have short legs so sit fully
forward in PA28/C172. I also make a point of reducing the seat height
to it's lowest to give maximum clearance for just that reason. When
checking for 'controls full & free movement' it's the mid range fully
left or right which affects me! Unfortunately my wife has very much
longer legs and I have to remember to warn her when I'm checking 'full
& free movement' :-)

David

[Dudley Henriques]

> wrote in message
...
> On Mon, 20 Mar 2006 01:28:57 GMT, "Dudley Henriques"
> > wrote:
>
>>I'm not a fan of kneeboards when used in yoke equipped aircraft. I had a
>>friend killed demonstrating a P38 while wearing a kneeboard that was
>>considered a major contributing cause in the crash.
>>As for GA airplanes with yokes, I just don't like the distance equation
>>between the yoke and the kneeboard as the yoke comes aft in it's normal
>>travel for positive pitch.
>>It's a judgment call of course, and some pilots do use them and haven't
>>complained of issues, but my business is flight safety, and I always make
>>it
>>a point to mention how I feel about kneeboards when asked, or when not
>>asked
>>:-) if someone posts here about using them.
>>Just be extremely careful and aware of the possible control confliction
>>issue.
>>Dudley Henriques
>>
>
> A very interesting reply Dudley. I have short legs so sit fully
> forward in PA28/C172. I also make a point of reducing the seat height
> to it's lowest to give maximum clearance for just that reason. When
> checking for 'controls full & free movement' it's the mid range fully
> left or right which affects me! Unfortunately my wife has very much
> longer legs and I have to remember to warn her when I'm checking 'full
> & free movement' :-)
>
> David

As I said David, it's a toss up, like everything else in the add on goodies
category you can stuff in the cockpit with you :-)
A lot depends on the specific airplane you're flying as to exactly where
something will go. You can put something one place in one airplane that will
conflict like hell in the next one you fly.
The basic answer with these things is to be aware, which obviously you are.
What I would do in your case is to actually sit down in the cockpit of each
airplane of choice on the ramp and physically check your favored seat
position vs control movement vs the exact kneeboard of choice. You will
either find it's a non issue or a POSSIBLE issue. If it's a POSSIBLE issue
in any situation,(consider the crosswind flare carefully) then make your
decision based on this input.
Dudley Henriques

[[email protected]]

On Mon, 20 Mar 2006 13:50:43 GMT, "Dudley Henriques"
> wrote:

>
> wrote in message
...
>> On Mon, 20 Mar 2006 01:28:57 GMT, "Dudley Henriques"
>> > wrote:
>>
>>>I'm not a fan of kneeboards when used in yoke equipped aircraft. I had a
>>>friend killed demonstrating a P38 while wearing a kneeboard that was
>>>considered a major contributing cause in the crash.
>>>As for GA airplanes with yokes, I just don't like the distance equation
>>>between the yoke and the kneeboard as the yoke comes aft in it's normal
>>>travel for positive pitch.
>>>It's a judgment call of course, and some pilots do use them and haven't
>>>complained of issues, but my business is flight safety, and I always make
>>>it
>>>a point to mention how I feel about kneeboards when asked, or when not
>>>asked
>>>:-) if someone posts here about using them.
>>>Just be extremely careful and aware of the possible control confliction
>>>issue.
>>>Dudley Henriques
>>>
>>
>> A very interesting reply Dudley. I have short legs so sit fully
>> forward in PA28/C172. I also make a point of reducing the seat height
>> to it's lowest to give maximum clearance for just that reason. When
>> checking for 'controls full & free movement' it's the mid range fully
>> left or right which affects me! Unfortunately my wife has very much
>> longer legs and I have to remember to warn her when I'm checking 'full
>> & free movement' :-)
>>
>> David
>
>As I said David, it's a toss up, like everything else in the add on goodies
>category you can stuff in the cockpit with you :-)
>A lot depends on the specific airplane you're flying as to exactly where
>something will go. You can put something one place in one airplane that will
>conflict like hell in the next one you fly.
>The basic answer with these things is to be aware, which obviously you are.
>What I would do in your case is to actually sit down in the cockpit of each
>airplane of choice on the ramp and physically check your favored seat
>position vs control movement vs the exact kneeboard of choice. You will
>either find it's a non issue or a POSSIBLE issue. If it's a POSSIBLE issue
>in any situation,(consider the crosswind flare carefully) then make your
>decision based on this input.
>Dudley Henriques
>

Dudley, thanks.
If there was any problem my answer is to keep my knees slightly
further apart and let the left side of the kneeboard fall between my
legs. As for my Wife she knows that she'll have to move!!!

Most 172's means I only get full rudder using the balls of my feet but
the Warrior allows me to be more flat footed, which I prefer!

As you say you need to just sit in the cockpit and work it all out.
I once deliberately made a X/wind landing in the Warrior with about
15Kt X/w and 25° flap, just to see if I could cope if I had to. I'm
pleased to say it went well and I'm still here, although one pilot
listening on the frequency said afterwards why on earth would you want
to do that :-) Why? for the same reason I took off to 200ft and did a
PFL to the runway, just to make sure I could, should the fan stop for
real.

David

[john smith]

In article >,
wrote:

> If there was any problem my answer is to keep my knees slightly
> further apart and let the left side of the kneeboard fall between my
> legs.

I wear my kneeboard on my right thigh and roll my kneeboard to the
outside of the of the thigh when not being used.

[Peter R.]

cpw > wrote:

> What do the rest of you do to manage
> checklists, charts, airport info, etc?

After trying various pilot-supply kneeboards, I finally built my own, more
functional flight organizer.

I started with a small, 3-ring binder (day planner size) I purchased for US
$5.00 at Staples, then modified it by slicing the plastic on the back of
the binder open to insert an old, ASA aluminum kneeboard I had. This
kneeboard on the back of the binder provided a firm, stable surface
complete with a velcro wrap that I could wrap around my leg.

I then inserted four Jeppesen tabbed kneeboard-sized dividers in the
binder, marking each tab with "Normal Checklists, "Emergency," "Reference,"
and "Approaches."

Using MS Excel, I created customized color checklists for both normal
procedures and emergencies (based on the POH, but in a locigal, flow order)
and inserted these into the binder.

Both the front and back inside binder covers had pockets, so I removed the
velcro off a second ASA kneeboard I had, trimmed it to size, then inserted
it into the inside front pocket of the binder specifically to use the
clipboard functionality. In the event I didn't have another ASA kneeboard,
I could have used any small clipboard. This clip holds my flight plan and
fuel management sheet.

Before every IFR flight, I will pull out the approaches for my departure,
arrival, and alternate airport and file them in the clipboard. The pocket
on the back inside cover holds two en route IFR charts. Within arms length
is the Jeppesen approach plate binder for my route, but this is only needed
for an unplanned diversion.

And finally, I have miscellaneous items filed under the reference tab of
this notebook, such as blank flight plan form, blank PIREP form, V speeds
for various weights, and an XM Satellite Radio channel guide. :)

Open on my lap, this organizer is about 3/4 inch higher than my lap. In
very turbulent landing conditions I remove the lapboard to fly the approach
(but use a yokeboard for the approach plate).

I certainly understand and respect Dudley's concerns (stated elsewhere in
this thread), but the organization and access to emergency data far
outweigh the risk of this binder interfering with the controls.

If you are interested, I could snap some pictures of it and post them to my
website (This Thursday evening at the earliest due to business travel).

--
Peter

[Thomas Borchert]

Cpw,

The Zuluboard kneeboards from Zuluworks are pretty much perfect for my
needs. In addition, I use a yoke clip to which my timer is velcroed,
but that wouldn't work if you put a GPS there.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[cpw]

Peter, I'd love to see some photos of your concoction...sounds like
just what the doctor ordered!
CPW

[Peter R.]

cpw > wrote:

> Peter, I'd love to see some photos of your concoction...sounds like
> just what the doctor ordered!

Thanks, CPW. Give me until Thursday night when I return home from my
weekly business trip and I will post them to my site and provide a link in
a follow-up post to this thread.



--
Peter

[Peter R.]

cpw > wrote:

> Peter, I'd love to see some photos of your concoction...sounds like
> just what the doctor ordered!

Here is a quick page I slapped together with some pictures and text about
the IFR Flight Organizer I made two years ago:

http://thericcs.net/aviation/misc/ifrorganizer/IFRorganizer.htm

It has seen a lot of action, so I apologize up front for the tired look.
However, what it lacks in beauty it more than makes up in functionality.


--
Peter

[Peter Duniho]

"Peter R." > wrote in message
...
> Here is a quick page I slapped together with some pictures and text about
> the IFR Flight Organizer I made two years ago:

Nice. I especially like the use of duct tape, rather than simply using a
grinder to smooth the snipped edges. :)

I was also amused at the privacy tape over your last name, on a photo posted
to your own web site (and thus, with an attached registrant record with your
full name, address, and phone number). But I suppose this actually makes
sense, to limit distribution of personal information if the photo should be
copied elsewhere.

Anyway, thanks for sharing...you've got a nice organizational system there,
and I won't mind copying useful bits and pieces from it. :)

Pete

[Peter R.]

Peter Duniho > wrote:

> Nice. I especially like the use of duct tape, rather than simply using a
> grinder to smooth the snipped edges. :)

Thanks. I am not a metal worker by trade so there are obvious signs of a
knowledge and tool deficit.

> I was also amused at the privacy tape over your last name, on a photo posted
> to your own web site (and thus, with an attached registrant record with your
> full name, address, and phone number). But I suppose this actually makes
> sense, to limit distribution of personal information if the photo should be
> copied elsewhere.

Yep, I have been burned by Usenet trolls in the past. Granted that it
really is not that difficult to dig up the information, but at least they
have to work for it. I don't want to be handing it to them on a silver
platter.

> Anyway, thanks for sharing...you've got a nice organizational system there,
> and I won't mind copying useful bits and pieces from it. :)

No copyright on the design so steal away. In fact, if you have any
improvements, I would enjoy reading about them.

--
Peter

[Jim Macklin]

The best way to treat edges of metal is a mill file and draw
filing. Duct tape will melt and leave sticky residue. If
you want a treatment for the edges, after filing, get some
rubber channel and use a RTV compound to secure it.



--
James H. Macklin
ATP,CFI,A&P

--
The people think the Constitution protects their rights;
But government sees it as an obstacle to be overcome.
some support
http://www.usdoj.gov/olc/secondamendment2.htm
See http://www.fija.org/ more about your rights and duties.


"Peter R." > wrote in message
...
| Peter Duniho > wrote:
|
| > Nice. I especially like the use of duct tape, rather
than simply using a
| > grinder to smooth the snipped edges. :)
|
| Thanks. I am not a metal worker by trade so there are
obvious signs of a
| knowledge and tool deficit.
|
| > I was also amused at the privacy tape over your last
name, on a photo posted
| > to your own web site (and thus, with an attached
registrant record with your
| > full name, address, and phone number). But I suppose
this actually makes
| > sense, to limit distribution of personal information if
the photo should be
| > copied elsewhere.
|
| Yep, I have been burned by Usenet trolls in the past.
Granted that it
| really is not that difficult to dig up the information,
but at least they
| have to work for it. I don't want to be handing it to
them on a silver
| platter.
|
| > Anyway, thanks for sharing...you've got a nice
organizational system there,
| > and I won't mind copying useful bits and pieces from it.
:)
|
| No copyright on the design so steal away. In fact, if you
have any
| improvements, I would enjoy reading about them.
|
| --
| Peter

[Peter R.]

Jim Macklin > wrote:

> The best way to treat edges of metal is a mill file and draw
> filing. Duct tape will melt and leave sticky residue. If
> you want a treatment for the edges, after filing, get some
> rubber channel and use a RTV compound to secure it.

OK, that organizer is version 1.0. Version 2.0 will feature the
suggestions you and Peter offered.

--
Peter

[[email protected]]

On Fri, 24 Mar 2006 10:34:21 -0600, "Jim Macklin"
> wrote:

>The best way to treat edges of metal is a mill file and draw
>filing. Duct tape will melt and leave sticky residue. If
>you want a treatment for the edges, after filing, get some
>rubber channel and use a RTV compound to secure it.
>
>
>
>--
>James H. Macklin
>ATP,CFI,A&P

The simple way to make clean edges with aluminium is to draw file as
suggested above, i.e. use fine file at right angles. Finish off with a
round rod, e.g. screwdriver shaft and draw it along the edge at right
angles. If you do this a few times and roll the rod over the edges you
can make a very smooth edge.

David