The New ATC: 4 Dimension Trajectory

[Larry Dighera]

Pilots, prepare to lose some sovereignty over your flights:

http://www.exn.ca/dailyplanet/view.asp?date=2/13/2006
As airplane travel is becoming more frequent, air traffic is said to
double in the next coming years. A new system called 4DT (4 Dimension
Trajectory) will soon replace current ones. It includes state of the
art technology in which air traffic controllers will have more control
over planes prior to landing...
Video: http://www.exn.ca/dailyplanet/view.asp?date=2/13/2006#

More:
http://66.218.69.11/search/cache?_adv_prop=web&x=op&ei=UTF-8&fr=fp-top&va_vt=any&vp=4+Dimension+Trajectory&vp_vt=any&vo_vt=any&ve_vt=any&vst=0&vf=all&vm=i&fl=0&n=10&u=www.eurocontrol.int/corporate/gallery/content/public/docs/pdf/organisation/dg/speeches/DG_Speech_050317.pdf&w=%224+dimension+trajectory%22&d=Iz_YbW1aMMrk&icp=1&.intl=us

[Jose]

> A new system called 4DT (4 Dimension
> Trajectory) will soon replace current ones.

Gee, it has a nifty name and everything. Must be real.

Jose
--
Nothing takes longer than a shortcut.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Jim Macklin]

ATC needs to be renamed Air Traffic Coordination, they don't
control anything. That said, these systems are designed for
airlines at the major terminals and then forced on
everybody.

If computers and remote sensing work properly, all flights
outside of Class B could be self-monitored and cleared. But
that doesn't support the staff now working.


--
The people think the Constitution protects their rights;
But government sees it as an obstacle to be overcome.
some support
http://www.usdoj.gov/olc/secondamendment2.htm
See http://www.fija.org/ more about your rights and duties.


"Larry Dighera" > wrote in message
...
|
| Pilots, prepare to lose some sovereignty over your
flights:
|
| http://www.exn.ca/dailyplanet/view.asp?date=2/13/2006
| As airplane travel is becoming more frequent, air traffic
is said to
| double in the next coming years. A new system called 4DT
(4 Dimension
| Trajectory) will soon replace current ones. It includes
state of the
| art technology in which air traffic controllers will have
more control
| over planes prior to landing...
| Video:
http://www.exn.ca/dailyplanet/view.asp?date=2/13/2006#
|
| More:
|
http://66.218.69.11/search/cache?_adv_prop=web&x=op&ei=UTF-8&fr=fp-top&va_vt=any&vp=4+Dimension+Trajectory&vp_vt=any&vo_vt=any&ve_vt=any&vst=0&vf=all&vm=i&fl=0&n=10&u=www.eurocontrol.int/corporate/gallery/content/public/docs/pdf/organisation/dg/speeches/DG_Speech_050317.pdf&w=%224+dimension+trajectory%22&d=Iz_YbW1aMMrk&icp=1&.intl=us

[JohnH]

> As airplane travel is becoming more frequent, air traffic is said to
> double in the next coming years.

Right.

http://www.birdseyetourist.com/?cat=14

[Bob Noel]

In article >,
Larry Dighera > wrote:

> Pilots, prepare to lose some sovereignty over your flights:
>
> http://www.exn.ca/dailyplanet/view.asp?date=2/13/2006
> As airplane travel is becoming more frequent, air traffic is said to
> double in the next coming years. A new system called 4DT (4 Dimension
> Trajectory) will soon replace current ones.

relax. The concept of required time of arrival has been talked about
for years. It's going to be a loooooonnnnnngggggggg time before
it's actually implemented.

--
Bob Noel
Looking for a sig the
lawyers will hate

[Larry Dighera]

On Mon, 20 Mar 2006 19:08:50 -0600, "Jim Macklin"
> wrote in
<ImITf.118378$QW2.2559@dukeread08>::

>
>... That said, these systems are designed for airlines at
>the major terminals and then forced on everybody.

Well, if Boeing and LockMart play it right, they'll be awarded the FAA
ATC contract, establish departure, en route and approach fees, and
then automate the entire operation with synthetic speech and airliner
data links without revising the fee schedule. They'll make a fortune,
unless there is a surge in mishaps or liability suits.

>If computers and remote sensing work properly, all flights
>outside of Class B could be self-monitored and cleared.

There's little doubt, that's the plan.

>But that doesn't support the staff now working.

That's not an issue. ATC staffing will be subcontracted to India or
Dubai. It's the 21st century after all. :-)

[Larry Dighera]

On Mon, 20 Mar 2006 21:21:43 -0500, Bob Noel
> wrote in
>::

>The concept of required time of arrival has been talked about
>for years.

Apparently, among other things, 4DT supports tweaking that time en
route so there will be less holding, and stepped approach descents
will give way to throttled back glides.

>It's going to be a loooooonnnnnngggggggg time before
>it's actually implemented.

Perhaps. But IIRC Bowing is providing ATC under contract in the UK.
Once the software is written and tested, it would be possible to
deploy it as rapidly as personnel could be trained. In this country,
of course, there's no need to reduce CO2 emissions and aircraft noise
levels. :-(

[Jim Macklin]

Oh, no, Arabs running air ports, they will be a security
risk, terrorism, national shame, political hype, media
outrage, yellow journalism, what will we do... turn your
transponder OFF and fly at 25 feet in a rag and tube
airplane and they'll never find you if you stay away from
terminal areas. ATC radar operate in secondary mode, avoid
military radars and go where you want.


Or join the AOPA and EAA and stay in contact with your
Congressman. Politics is not a bad word.


--
James H. Macklin
ATP,CFI,A&P

--
The people think the Constitution protects their rights;
But government sees it as an obstacle to be overcome.
some support
http://www.usdoj.gov/olc/secondamendment2.htm
See http://www.fija.org/ more about your rights and duties.


"Larry Dighera" > wrote in message
...
| On Mon, 20 Mar 2006 19:08:50 -0600, "Jim Macklin"
| > wrote in
| <ImITf.118378$QW2.2559@dukeread08>::
|
| >
| >... That said, these systems are designed for airlines at
| >the major terminals and then forced on everybody.
|
| Well, if Boeing and LockMart play it right, they'll be
awarded the FAA
| ATC contract, establish departure, en route and approach
fees, and
| then automate the entire operation with synthetic speech
and airliner
| data links without revising the fee schedule. They'll
make a fortune,
| unless there is a surge in mishaps or liability suits.
|
| >If computers and remote sensing work properly, all
flights
| >outside of Class B could be self-monitored and cleared.
|
| There's little doubt, that's the plan.
|
| >But that doesn't support the staff now working.
|
| That's not an issue. ATC staffing will be subcontracted
to India or
| Dubai. It's the 21st century after all. :-)

[Morgans]

"Jim Macklin" > wrote \

> Politics is not a bad word.

Oh, yes it is. It is the politicians, and the lobbyist that have made it a
bad word. The press needs to take it's share of blame, too. What normal,
good person would want to go into politics, and have every aspect of their
life exposed, and their past dug into?

Unfortunately, it *is* the only way to deal with what is out there. We do
need to use AOPA's limited powers of persuation, to swing things in our
favor.

I fear it is too little, too late.

Another bad word is Economics.

Instead of trying to keep the price of flying from going up, we need to get
the price of flying going down, and down dramatically. Most average people
with any kind of obligations, and other responsibilities that require
financial outlay, can simply not afford to get into flying. Cut the price
of hourly wet plane rental (or club participation) in half, and you would
start to get significantly more people participating in flying.
--
Jim in NC

[Bob Noel]

In article >,
Larry Dighera > wrote:

> >It's going to be a loooooonnnnnngggggggg time before
> >it's actually implemented.
>
> Perhaps. But IIRC Bowing is providing ATC under contract in the UK.
> Once the software is written and tested, it would be possible to
> deploy it as rapidly as personnel could be trained. In this country,
> of course, there's no need to reduce CO2 emissions and aircraft noise
> levels. :-(

Check out the history of when all the new CNS/ATM requirements were
going to implemented. They always always always slide to the right,
and slide to the right many times. You think this particular old idea is
any different?

--
Bob Noel
Looking for a sig the
lawyers will hate

[Larry Dighera]

On Tue, 21 Mar 2006 00:34:17 -0500, Bob Noel
> wrote in
>::

>They always always always slide to the right,
>and slide to the right many times. You think this particular old idea is
>any different?

Was Boeing doing the sliding?


http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A63878-2001Jan29?language=printer
Boeing officials say that by May they will give the FAA a
comprehensive plan for replacing the nation's radar-based air
traffic control system -- which is straining to handle the 93,000
aircraft that fly daily in U.S. airspace -- with a satellite-based
one that could squeeze perhaps 50 percent more flights into
available airspace and improve air safety.

[Leonard Milcin Jr.]

Larry Dighera skrev:
> On Mon, 20 Mar 2006 19:08:50 -0600, "Jim Macklin"
>> But that doesn't support the staff now working.
>
> That's not an issue. ATC staffing will be subcontracted to India or
> Dubai. It's the 21st century after all. :-)

I heard China is going to double it's traffic in the next five years and
they lack qualified ATCs.


L.

[Bob Noel]

In article >,
Larry Dighera > wrote:

> >They always always always slide to the right,
> >and slide to the right many times. You think this particular old idea is
> >any different?
>
> Was Boeing doing the sliding?

Yes.

--
Bob Noel
Looking for a sig the
lawyers will hate

[Roy Smith]

In article >,
Larry Dighera > wrote:

> That's not an issue. ATC staffing will be subcontracted to India or
> Dubai. It's the 21st century after all. :-)

Don't laugh, it may happen. To a certain extent, it really doesn't matter
if the guy controlling your flight is sitting in a dark room 200 miles away
or 8000 miles away.

[Chris]

"Larry Dighera" > wrote in message
...
> On Mon, 20 Mar 2006 21:21:43 -0500, Bob Noel
> > wrote in
> >::
>
>>The concept of required time of arrival has been talked about
>>for years.
>
> Apparently, among other things, 4DT supports tweaking that time en
> route so there will be less holding, and stepped approach descents
> will give way to throttled back glides.
>
>>It's going to be a loooooonnnnnngggggggg time before
>>it's actually implemented.
>
> Perhaps. But IIRC Bowing is providing ATC under contract in the UK.

I don't think so. Bowing are not providing ATC under contact in the UK. ATC
is provided by NATS http://www.nats.co.uk/about/ownership.html

[Newps]

Jim Macklin wrote:

> ATC needs to be renamed Air Traffic Coordination, they don't
> control anything.

Bwaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

[Larry Dighera]

On Tue, 21 Mar 2006 10:00:39 +0100, "Leonard Milcin Jr."
> wrote in >::

>Larry Dighera skrev:
>> On Mon, 20 Mar 2006 19:08:50 -0600, "Jim Macklin"
>>> But that doesn't support the staff now working.
>>
>> That's not an issue. ATC staffing will be subcontracted to India or
>> Dubai. It's the 21st century after all. :-)
>
>I heard China is going to double it's traffic in the next five years and
>they lack qualified ATCs.

That's the beauty of ATC; the majority of it can be done from any
developed location on Earth.

[Larry Dighera]

On Tue, 21 Mar 2006 15:34:44 -0000, "Chris" >
wrote in >::

>
>"Larry Dighera" > wrote in message
...
>> On Mon, 20 Mar 2006 21:21:43 -0500, Bob Noel
>> > wrote in
>> >::
>>
>>>The concept of required time of arrival has been talked about
>>>for years.
>>
>> Apparently, among other things, 4DT supports tweaking that time en
>> route so there will be less holding, and stepped approach descents
>> will give way to throttled back glides.
>>
>>>It's going to be a loooooonnnnnngggggggg time before
>>>it's actually implemented.
>>
>> Perhaps. But IIRC Bowing is providing ATC under contract in the UK.
>
>I don't think so. Bowing are not providing ATC under contact in the UK. ATC
>is provided by NATS http://www.nats.co.uk/about/ownership.html
>

Interesting:

NATS is a public private partnership between the Airline Group, a
consortium of seven UK airlines, which holds 42%, NATS staff who
hold 5%, UK airport operator BAA plc, with 4%, and the government
which holds 49% and a golden share.

The Airline Group is a consortium of seven UK airlines: British
Airways, bmi British Midland, Virgin Atlantic, Britannia, Monarch,
easyJet and Airtours.


I do recall, that there was discussion several years ago of the UK
contracting with Boeing for ATC services, but I can't locate a
reference just now.

Here's some more interesting information about NATS:

http://www.rppi.org/atc15.html#Anchor-42816
August 2003
As reported here previously, NATS accomplished a financial
restructuring last spring that brought in BAA as a new investor
and led to new cash infusions by both BAA and NATS's 49% owner,
the U.K. government. Now NATS is about to launch a billion-dollar
bond issue to refinance a large part of its bank debt. That, in
turn, will permit the removal of restrictive provisions on the
debt that had prevented NATS from moving forward with its $1.6
billion, 10-year modernization program. The bond issue has
received AAA ratings by both Standard & Poor's and Moody's.

Apparently it was the FAA (not Boeing) who delayed implementation of
something similar to 4DT in the US:

http://www.reason.org/atcreform15.shtml
Jaws dropped last month when the FAA announced that
controller-pilot-data-link communications (CPDLC) was being put on
indefinite hold, despite a highly successful test program in
Miami. Automating routine ATC communications-in effect, switching
from voice to email-"is the key architectural enabler of almost
any future envisioned air traffic management system," says Kevin
Brown, one of Boeing's senior ATC people. "It is hard to imagine a
future where the connective tissue between aircraft and ground is
someone's voice over a VHF radio." And CPDLC isn't just about
automating a few routine voice messages. It could eventually
permit a plane's flight management system to automatically update
ATC computers with the plane's current trajectory, making possible
a "network-centric" approach to ATC.

By putting the program on hold, the FAA is ceding leadership in
CPDLC to Europe. Eurocontrol's plan will equip 15 en-route centers
by 2007, whereas observers now don't expect comparable nationwide
CPDLC equipage here until 2012, at the earliest.


More information here:


http://commdocs.house.gov/committees/science/hsy73841.000/hsy73841_0.HTM
DEVELOPING THE NEXT GENERATION AIR TRAFFIC MANAGEMENT SYSTEM
HEARING BEFORE THE SUBCOMMITTEE ON SPACE AND AERONAUTICS
COMMITTEE ON SCIENCE
HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
ONE HUNDRED SEVENTH CONGRESS
FIRST SESSION
JULY 19, 2001