Flight over water...required equipment?

[ET]

I know it's "smart" to have, say a pfd when flying over water, but what
equipment is "required" by FAA/FARs....

I'm thinking of a situation like flying to Catalina Island from SNA,
maintaining altitude such that we are always in gliding distance of either
SNA or the airport at Catalina....

--
-- ET >:-)

"A common mistake people make when trying to design something
completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete
fools."---- Douglas Adams

[Jim Macklin]

The FAA lists required equipment only for flights operating
under FAR 121/135 and large and turbine powered aircraft
under 91/and 125. That said, going to Catalina and being
able to glide to land would require an altitude of 10-12,000
feet. Also, you can buy some inflatable approved life vests
and they can be rented at many FBOs and shops near the
coasts.

What you can carry depends on the airplane, not much room or
useful load in a C150, plenty of both in a King Air 300.

As long as you're within gliding distance, a charter in a
Baron does not require any floatation gear, but if I paid
for a charter to Catalina, I want vests, a small boat and a
good personal ELT. On the east coast, the islands are too
far to glide back.

In any case, if the airplane is in good condition and full
of fuel, the odds are on your side.


--
James H. Macklin
ATP,CFI,A&P

--
The people think the Constitution protects their rights;
But government sees it as an obstacle to be overcome.
some support
http://www.usdoj.gov/olc/secondamendment2.htm
See http://www.fija.org/ more about your rights and duties.


"ET" > wrote in message
...
|I know it's "smart" to have, say a pfd when flying over
water, but what
| equipment is "required" by FAA/FARs....
|
| I'm thinking of a situation like flying to Catalina Island
from SNA,
| maintaining altitude such that we are always in gliding
distance of either
| SNA or the airport at Catalina....
|
| --
| -- ET >:-)
|
| "A common mistake people make when trying to design
something
| completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of
complete
| fools."---- Douglas Adams

[ET]

"Jim Macklin" > wrote in
news:jHdVf.737$t22.45@dukeread08:

> The FAA lists required equipment only for flights operating
> under FAR 121/135 and large and turbine powered aircraft
> under 91/and 125. That said, going to Catalina and being
> able to glide to land would require an altitude of 10-12,000
> feet. Also, you can buy some inflatable approved life vests
> and they can be rented at many FBOs and shops near the
> coasts.
>
> What you can carry depends on the airplane, not much room or
> useful load in a C150, plenty of both in a King Air 300.
>
> As long as you're within gliding distance, a charter in a
> Baron does not require any floatation gear, but if I paid
> for a charter to Catalina, I want vests, a small boat and a
> good personal ELT. On the east coast, the islands are too
> far to glide back.
>
> In any case, if the airplane is in good condition and full
> of fuel, the odds are on your side.
>
>

OK, so our private craft has no "required" equipment???

Alright, our LSA aircraft has a glide ratio of 11-1 at idle, and 14-1
poweroff (at 60knots "best glide" speed).. We've confirmed the idle glide
ratio, but have chosen not to purposely turn the engine off to confirm the
poweroff glide speed.

So, Avalon is at 1680msl, SNA to Avalon is 34 miles, 1/2 that= 17 miles,
then assuming the 11-1 for saftey that's 1.54 miles * 5280=8131 + 1680
(field elevation) = your right, about 10,000 feet going, and about 8000
coming back (SNA is at ~50ftmsl) at the peak of travel....


--
-- ET >:-)

"A common mistake people make when trying to design something
completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete
fools."---- Douglas Adams

[Tom]

Sec. 91.509 - Survival equipment for overwater operations.

(a) No person may take off an airplane for a flight over water more
than 50 nautical miles from the nearest shore unless that airplane is
equipped with a life preserver or an approved flotation means for each
occupant of the airplane.

(b) No person may take off an airplane for a flight over water more
than 30 minutes flying time or 100 nautical miles from the nearest
shore unless it has on board the following survival equipment:

(1) A life preserver, equipped with an approved survivor locator light,
for each occupant of the airplane.

(2) Enough liferafts (each equipped with an approved survival locator
light) of a rated capacity and buoyancy to accommodate the occupants of
the airplane.

(3) At least one pyrotechnic signaling device for each liferaft.

(4) One self-buoyant, water-resistant, portable emergency radio
signaling device that is capable of transmission on the appropriate
emergency frequency or frequencies and not dependent upon the airplane
power supply.

(5) A lifeline stored in accordance with 25.1411(g) of this chapter.

(c) The required liferafts, life preservers, and signaling devices must
be installed in conspicuously marked locations and easily accessible in
the event of a ditching without appreciable time for preparatory
procedures.

(d) A survival kit, appropriately equipped for the route to be flown,
must be attached to each required liferaft.

(e) As used in this section, the term shore means that area of the land
adjacent to the water which is above the high water mark and excludes
land areas which are intermittently under water.

[ET]

"Tom" > wrote in
oups.com:

> Sec. 91.509 - Survival equipment for overwater operations.
>
> (a) No person may take off an airplane for a flight over water more
> than 50 nautical miles from the nearest shore unless that airplane is
> equipped with a life preserver or an approved flotation means for each
> occupant of the airplane.
>
> (b) No person may take off an airplane for a flight over water more
> than 30 minutes flying time or 100 nautical miles from the nearest
> shore unless it has on board the following survival equipment:
>
> (1) A life preserver, equipped with an approved survivor locator
> light, for each occupant of the airplane.
>
> (2) Enough liferafts (each equipped with an approved survival locator
> light) of a rated capacity and buoyancy to accommodate the occupants
> of the airplane.
>
> (3) At least one pyrotechnic signaling device for each liferaft.
>
> (4) One self-buoyant, water-resistant, portable emergency radio
> signaling device that is capable of transmission on the appropriate
> emergency frequency or frequencies and not dependent upon the airplane
> power supply.
>
> (5) A lifeline stored in accordance with 25.1411(g) of this chapter.
>
> (c) The required liferafts, life preservers, and signaling devices
> must be installed in conspicuously marked locations and easily
> accessible in the event of a ditching without appreciable time for
> preparatory procedures.
>
> (d) A survival kit, appropriately equipped for the route to be flown,
> must be attached to each required liferaft.
>
> (e) As used in this section, the term shore means that area of the
> land adjacent to the water which is above the high water mark and
> excludes land areas which are intermittently under water.
>
>

Awsome Tom, Thank you very much for the concise reply, this tells me
"excatly" what I need to know. So, my 30 mile flight to Catalina at
110knots cruise does not "require" any special equipment at all
(Although I know I'm foolish to go without "some" kind of
flotation/pfd/whatever...)

Thanks!
--
-- ET >:-)

"A common mistake people make when trying to design something
completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete
fools."---- Douglas Adams

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

"ET" > wrote in message
...
>I know it's "smart" to have, say a pfd when flying over water, but what
> equipment is "required" by FAA/FARs....
>
> I'm thinking of a situation like flying to Catalina Island from SNA,
> maintaining altitude such that we are always in gliding distance of either
> SNA or the airport at Catalina....

FWIW...

If it gets hazy over the water, the horizon will dissapear. That may or may
not be a problem for you.
My brother and I had the same "plan" (stay high enough to glide to one side
or the other) for crossing lake Michigan some years ago. The problem was
that as we got close to the lake, the horizon started to dissapear. So, we
lost some altitude to maintain ground reference, then some more, then some
more. At a couple hundred feet above the water, the waves gave enough
reference to keep the airplane right side up. Of course, we were no longer
high enough to make it to dry land if the engine quit...

Now we fly around the bottom of the lake.
--
Geoff
The Sea Hawk at Wow Way d0t Com
remove spaces and make the obvious substitutions to reply by mail
Spell checking is left as an excercise for the reader.

[Longworth]

Tom wrote:
> Sec. 91.509 - Survival equipment for overwater operations.
>
>
For clarification, according to this website

http://www.equipped.com/avraft4.htm

" Part 91.509 "Survival equipment for over water operations" is part
of Subpart F dealing only with Large (over 12,500 pounds MTOW) and
Turbine-Powered (jet or turboprop) Multiengine Aircraft. This doesn't
cover your Cessna 182 or any other light GA aircraft, single or twin."

[Bob Noel]

In article . com>,
"Tom" > wrote:

> Sec. 91.509 - Survival equipment for overwater operations.

don't forget which the applicability of 91.509 (found in 91.501)

"*91.501***Applicability.

(a) This subpart prescribes operating rules, in addition to those prescribed in
other subparts of this part, governing the operation of large airplanes of U.S.
registry, turbojet-powered multiengine civil airplanes of U.S. registry, and
fractional ownership program aircraft of U.S. registry that are operating under
subpart K of this part in operations not involving common carriage. The
operating rules in this subpart do not apply to those aircraft when they are
required to be operated under parts 121, 125, 129, 135, and 137 of this chapter.
(Section 91.409 prescribes an inspection program for large and for
turbine-powered (turbojet and turboprop) multiengine airplanes and
turbine-powered rotorcraft of U.S. registry when they are operated under this
part or part 129 or 137.)"

--
Bob Noel
Looking for a sig the
lawyers will hate

[Jim Macklin]

Remember 10,000 is the LSA altitude limit.

Even though the FAA may not require floatation gear, I'd
want a Sterns vest for each person.

Personally, I get nervous over Lake Michigan or a few miles
off shore in a King Air. And I had floatation gear and I
can swim. I just prefer airports, unless I have floats on
the airplane.


--
James H. Macklin
ATP,CFI,A&P

--
The people think the Constitution protects their rights;
But government sees it as an obstacle to be overcome.
some support
http://www.usdoj.gov/olc/secondamendment2.htm
See http://www.fija.org/ more about your rights and duties.



"ET" > wrote in message
...
| "Jim Macklin" > wrote
in
| news:jHdVf.737$t22.45@dukeread08:
|
| > The FAA lists required equipment only for flights
operating
| > under FAR 121/135 and large and turbine powered aircraft
| > under 91/and 125. That said, going to Catalina and
being
| > able to glide to land would require an altitude of
10-12,000
| > feet. Also, you can buy some inflatable approved life
vests
| > and they can be rented at many FBOs and shops near the
| > coasts.
| >
| > What you can carry depends on the airplane, not much
room or
| > useful load in a C150, plenty of both in a King Air 300.
| >
| > As long as you're within gliding distance, a charter in
a
| > Baron does not require any floatation gear, but if I
paid
| > for a charter to Catalina, I want vests, a small boat
and a
| > good personal ELT. On the east coast, the islands are
too
| > far to glide back.
| >
| > In any case, if the airplane is in good condition and
full
| > of fuel, the odds are on your side.
| >
| >
|
| OK, so our private craft has no "required" equipment???
|
| Alright, our LSA aircraft has a glide ratio of 11-1 at
idle, and 14-1
| poweroff (at 60knots "best glide" speed).. We've
confirmed the idle glide
| ratio, but have chosen not to purposely turn the engine
off to confirm the
| poweroff glide speed.
|
| So, Avalon is at 1680msl, SNA to Avalon is 34 miles, 1/2
that= 17 miles,
| then assuming the 11-1 for saftey that's 1.54 miles *
5280=8131 + 1680
| (field elevation) = your right, about 10,000 feet going,
and about 8000
| coming back (SNA is at ~50ftmsl) at the peak of travel....
|
|
| --
| -- ET >:-)
|
| "A common mistake people make when trying to design
something
| completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of
complete
| fools."---- Douglas Adams

[Jim Macklin]

Subpart F--LARGE AND TURBINE-POWERED MULTIENGINE AIRPLANES
AND FRACTIONAL OWNERSHIP PROGRAM AIRCRAFT

§91.501
Applicability.

§91.503
Flying equipment and operating information.

§91.505
Familiarity with operating limitations and emergency
equipment.

§91.507
Equipment requirements: Over-the-top or night VFR
operations.

§91.509
Survival equipment for overwater operations.

§91.511
Radio equipment for overwater operations.

§91.513
Emergency equipment.

§91.515
Flight altitude rules.

§91.517
Passenger information.

§91.519
Passenger briefing.

§91.521
Shoulder harness.

§91.523
Carry-on baggage.

§91.525
Carriage of cargo.

§91.527
Operating in icing conditions.

§91.529
Flight engineer requirements.

§91.531
Second in command requirements.

§91.533
Flight attendant requirements.

§91.535
Stowage of food, beverage, and passenger service
equipment during aircraft movement on the surface, takeoff,
and landing.

§§91.536-91.599
[Reserved]


"Tom" > wrote in message
oups.com...
| Sec. 91.509 - Survival equipment for overwater operations.
|
| (a) No person may take off an airplane for a flight over
water more
| than 50 nautical miles from the nearest shore unless that
airplane is
| equipped with a life preserver or an approved flotation
means for each
| occupant of the airplane.
|
| (b) No person may take off an airplane for a flight over
water more
| than 30 minutes flying time or 100 nautical miles from the
nearest
| shore unless it has on board the following survival
equipment:
|
| (1) A life preserver, equipped with an approved survivor
locator light,
| for each occupant of the airplane.
|
| (2) Enough liferafts (each equipped with an approved
survival locator
| light) of a rated capacity and buoyancy to accommodate the
occupants of
| the airplane.
|
| (3) At least one pyrotechnic signaling device for each
liferaft.
|
| (4) One self-buoyant, water-resistant, portable emergency
radio
| signaling device that is capable of transmission on the
appropriate
| emergency frequency or frequencies and not dependent upon
the airplane
| power supply.
|
| (5) A lifeline stored in accordance with 25.1411(g) of
this chapter.
|
| (c) The required liferafts, life preservers, and signaling
devices must
| be installed in conspicuously marked locations and easily
accessible in
| the event of a ditching without appreciable time for
preparatory
| procedures.
|
| (d) A survival kit, appropriately equipped for the route
to be flown,
| must be attached to each required liferaft.
|
| (e) As used in this section, the term shore means that
area of the land
| adjacent to the water which is above the high water mark
and excludes
| land areas which are intermittently under water.
|

[Grumman-581]

In rec.aviation.piloting, "Jim Macklin" wrote in message
news:MdjVf.755$t22.325@dukeread08...
> Personally, I get nervous over Lake Michigan or a few miles
> off shore in a King Air.

Well, Lake Michigan gets *cold*... Although I have crossed it with just a
life vest, I would not have wanted to have had to experience the water
temperature... I suspect that I would have died from hypothermia long before
anyone would have rescued me... Let's just say that I'm quite a bit less
concerned about thermal protection during the summer when I'm flying over
the Gulf of Mexico...

[Jim Macklin]

It have been in the water on purpose, in a Canadian lake
about 200 miles north of Toronto and I've swum in the ocean
off of Marathon Key. Up north, temperature will kill you
and down south I'd be alive long enough to worry about
sharks.

My rule of thumb, don't fly over swamps if there is a
reasonable way around, ditto for oceans, big lakes, jagged
mountains. I also want to have a good knowledge of the
particular airplane. I want to know exactly how much fuel
is in the tanks, I want to know about the fuel pumps too.
Years ago some friends bought a 58P Baron that had been in
England as a charter plane. They got a "good" deal on the
plane and it was ferried over. I flew it for them from
Wichita to Brownsville where they had a condo for vacations.
I'd drop them off and pick them up a week later. On the
second trip, the left engine quit just after I leveled off
at FL220 north bound, about the Corpus Christi area. Both
fuel pumps failed. Declared my emergency and started a
descent to land, no big hurry, picked a place where I could
get an airline flight home. San Antonio was an easy choice.
The shop there "fixed" the pumps and I picked it up the next
week-end and continued to Brownsville to get my passengers.
The fuel pressures did not seem stable or proper on the
return flight. Put the pane in the shop on return to
Wichita and replaced all four fuel pumps on both sides.

I'm glad I wasn't flying direct from Brownsville to New
Orleans. If I was, I'd go around the coast rather than
across the gulf. Much safer and cheaper than salvaging the
plane from the water.


--
James H. Macklin
ATP,CFI,A&P

--
The people think the Constitution protects their rights;
But government sees it as an obstacle to be overcome.
some support
http://www.usdoj.gov/olc/secondamendment2.htm
See http://www.fija.org/ more about your rights and duties.


"Grumman-581" > wrote
in message ...
| In rec.aviation.piloting, "Jim Macklin" wrote in message
| news:MdjVf.755$t22.325@dukeread08...
| > Personally, I get nervous over Lake Michigan or a few
miles
| > off shore in a King Air.
|
| Well, Lake Michigan gets *cold*... Although I have crossed
it with just a
| life vest, I would not have wanted to have had to
experience the water
| temperature... I suspect that I would have died from
hypothermia long before
| anyone would have rescued me... Let's just say that I'm
quite a bit less
| concerned about thermal protection during the summer when
I'm flying over
| the Gulf of Mexico...
|
|

[[email protected]]

You dont go direct from SNA. Go towards Torrance (KTOA) and then turn
left to AVX. That's the shortest part of the channel to Catalina.
therefore lower glide distances. Also gives you time to climb to
altitude. Done the route 10-12 times.b

[.Blueskies.]

There are usually quite a few boats out there also. If there is a problem head towards one of them...


"ET" > wrote in message ...
>I know it's "smart" to have, say a pfd when flying over water, but what
> equipment is "required" by FAA/FARs....
>
> I'm thinking of a situation like flying to Catalina Island from SNA,
> maintaining altitude such that we are always in gliding distance of either
> SNA or the airport at Catalina....
>
> --
> -- ET >:-)
>
> "A common mistake people make when trying to design something
> completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete
> fools."---- Douglas Adams

[Rob]

Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe wrote:
> Now we fly around the bottom of the lake.

I know what you meant, but I still got a chuckle out of that.

-R