Shafted by the Transport Canada?

[[email protected]]

This morning I received a letter from Transport Canada informing me I
am being fined $250 for not filing a flight plan. I had flown from
Minot, ND to Regina, Canada on July 30, 2005. I had meticulously
planned the flight using the AOPA webpage on the subject (got all the
radio station permits, customs decal, etc.). I am absolutely sure that
I had filed and activated a VFR flight plan for that flight. I had a
squawk code and was getting flight following, but when I landed in
Canada the FSS couldn't find my flight plan to close it. I was
informed of the investigation by a phone call about a month after the
flight. Conveniently for Transport Canada, Minot ATC erases their
tapes after two weeks according to the manager of the Minot FSS. I
submitted a Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) request to the Great
Lakes Regional FSS as soon as I heard of the investigation in September
2005. As expected, Great Lakes said they don't keep records long
enough to fill my request. BTW, they were terrible to deal with. The
FOIA woman never answers her phone and never returned any of my calls.
The only response from Great Lakes FSS was a letter in February 2006
saying they no longer had records for that time period.

So, basically Canada says I didn't file a flight plan and I don't have
any way of proving that I did. Anybody have any ideas on how to
dispute this or had a similar experience? (AOPA Legal was no help.
Their only suggestion was the FOIA request.)

Thanks,
Bob

[Grumman-581]

> wrote in message
ups.com...
> Anybody have any ideas on how to
> dispute this or had a similar experience?

Do you ever plan on going to Canada again? If not, tell 'em to **** off...
It's not like they can extradite you, right?

[Steve Foley]

> wrote in message
ups.com...
> This morning I received a letter from Transport Canada informing me I
> am being fined $250 for not filing a flight plan. I had flown from
> Minot, ND to Regina, Canada on July 30, 2005. I had meticulously
> planned the flight using the AOPA webpage on the subject (got all the
> radio station permits, customs decal, etc.). I am absolutely sure that
> I had filed and activated a VFR flight plan for that flight. I had a
> squawk code and was getting flight following, but when I landed in
> Canada the FSS couldn't find my flight plan to close it. I was
> informed of the investigation by a phone call about a month after the
> flight. Conveniently for Transport Canada, Minot ATC erases their
> tapes after two weeks according to the manager of the Minot FSS. I
> submitted a Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) request to the Great
> Lakes Regional FSS as soon as I heard of the investigation in September
> 2005. As expected, Great Lakes said they don't keep records long
> enough to fill my request. BTW, they were terrible to deal with. The
> FOIA woman never answers her phone and never returned any of my calls.
> The only response from Great Lakes FSS was a letter in February 2006
> saying they no longer had records for that time period.
>
> So, basically Canada says I didn't file a flight plan and I don't have
> any way of proving that I did. Anybody have any ideas on how to
> dispute this or had a similar experience? (AOPA Legal was no help.
> Their only suggestion was the FOIA request.)
>
> Thanks,
> Bob
>



Find the paper flight plan you filled out and fax or mail a copy to them,
pointing out the area where you noted the date and time it was filed.

[Peter R.]

> wrote:

> So, basically Canada says I didn't file a flight plan and I don't have
> any way of proving that I did. Anybody have any ideas on how to
> dispute this or had a similar experience? (AOPA Legal was no help.
> Their only suggestion was the FOIA request.)

I would tackle as a customer/vendor relationship.

Write to this agency requesting that they wave the penalty, which will
encourage you to again fly into Canada and spend your money in their
country for more enjoyable services such as hotels, restaurants, and
entertainment. Send a copy to the Canadian aircraft owners & pilots
organization and the Canadian tourist board/agency.

Inform this group that you did file a VFR flight plan and that you
performed extensive research of the requirements of flying into Canadian
airspace before taking the flight. Let them know that flying into Canada
is a method of transportation that allows you to take more vacations into
their country than you would otherwise.

Conclude with the fact that if they continue to insist on penalizing you,
you will never again take another vacation into Canada and the $250 you
send them will be the last dollar you spend in their country ever.
Furthermore, you will spread the word via the Internet that Canada is not a
GA-friendly country and you will encourage every pilot you know to avoid
Canadian airspace and the businesses that thrive from this mode of
transportation.

Living in New York state, I used to drive over the border to buy Canadian
beer when I was in college (back before the days of good micro-breweries
here in the US). One time while eating at a small Canadian city
restaurant, our parking meter ran out before we could refill it.

Upon returning to the car, we spotted what looked to be a parking ticket
under the wiper. This is roughly what the ticket read (no lie): "This
paper is to inform you that your meter has run out. However, because you
are from a different country, we are not penalizing you. Instead, we are
thanking you for your business in our country."

I thought that was pretty classy.

--
Peter

[Doug]

I don't know if this will help you, but if you file an itinerary with a
responsible person, then you don't have to file a flight plan. An
itinerary is just a record of your trip. A lot of pilots file with
their wife, but it could be anybody.

[[email protected]]

In case anyone's interested, here's the relevant Canadian regulations.
They claim I busted (4).

Requirement to File a Flight Plan or a Flight Itinerary

602.73 (1) Subject to subsection (3), no pilot-in-command shall operate
an aircraft in IFR flight unless an IFR flight plan has been filed.

(2) No pilot-in-command shall operate an aircraft in VFR flight unless
a VFR flight plan or a VFR flight itinerary has been filed, except
where the flight is conducted within 25 nautical miles of the departure
aerodrome.

(3) A pilot-in-command may file an IFR flight itinerary instead of an
IFR flight plan where

(a) the flight is conducted in part or in whole outside controlled
airspace; or

(b) facilities are inadequate to permit the communication of flight
plan information to an air traffic control unit, a flight service
station or a community aerodrome radio station.

(4) Notwithstanding anything in this Division, no pilot-in-command
shall, unless a flight plan has been filed, operate an aircraft between
Canada and a foreign state.

[Chris]

"Doug" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>I don't know if this will help you, but if you file an itinerary with a
> responsible person, then you don't have to file a flight plan. An
> itinerary is just a record of your trip. A lot of pilots file with
> their wife, but it could be anybody.
>
No a flight plan must be filed when crossing an international border.

[Jim Macklin]

Call your Congressman, this is a matter for Condi's State
Department. Tell Canada that you filed and since you had a
discrete squawk, there should be records of the radar tapes
that will show your aircraft and may indicate that it was on
a flight plan.


--
James H. Macklin
ATP,CFI,A&P

--
The people think the Constitution protects their rights;
But government sees it as an obstacle to be overcome.
some support
http://www.usdoj.gov/olc/secondamendment2.htm
See http://www.fija.org/ more about your rights and duties.


> wrote in message
ups.com...
| This morning I received a letter from Transport Canada
informing me I
| am being fined $250 for not filing a flight plan. I had
flown from
| Minot, ND to Regina, Canada on July 30, 2005. I had
meticulously
| planned the flight using the AOPA webpage on the subject
(got all the
| radio station permits, customs decal, etc.). I am
absolutely sure that
| I had filed and activated a VFR flight plan for that
flight. I had a
| squawk code and was getting flight following, but when I
landed in
| Canada the FSS couldn't find my flight plan to close it.
I was
| informed of the investigation by a phone call about a
month after the
| flight. Conveniently for Transport Canada, Minot ATC
erases their
| tapes after two weeks according to the manager of the
Minot FSS. I
| submitted a Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) request to
the Great
| Lakes Regional FSS as soon as I heard of the investigation
in September
| 2005. As expected, Great Lakes said they don't keep
records long
| enough to fill my request. BTW, they were terrible to
deal with. The
| FOIA woman never answers her phone and never returned any
of my calls.
| The only response from Great Lakes FSS was a letter in
February 2006
| saying they no longer had records for that time period.
|
| So, basically Canada says I didn't file a flight plan and
I don't have
| any way of proving that I did. Anybody have any ideas on
how to
| dispute this or had a similar experience? (AOPA Legal was
no help.
| Their only suggestion was the FOIA request.)
|
| Thanks,
| Bob
|

[Grumman-581]

"Chris" > wrote in message
...
> No a flight plan must be filed when crossing an international border.

Not always... Was flying back to Houston from SoCal a few years ago and
landing in El Paso for the night and and to refuel... I was routed well
across the border by ATC and asked them about it... They said that they
controlled the Mexican airspace, so it wouldn't be a problem... I have to
think that if I had needed to make an emergency landing while south of the
border, it defintely would have been a problem since Mexico tends to take a
dim view of us bringing firearms into their country... And, of course, since
I'm a Texan, I *always* have a gun or two in my plane...

[nooneimportant]

"Grumman-581" > wrote in message
...
> "Chris" > wrote in message
> ...
>> No a flight plan must be filed when crossing an international border.
>
> Not always... Was flying back to Houston from SoCal a few years ago and
> landing in El Paso for the night and and to refuel... I was routed well
> across the border by ATC and asked them about it... They said that they
> controlled the Mexican airspace, so it wouldn't be a problem... I have to
> think that if I had needed to make an emergency landing while south of the
> border, it defintely would have been a problem since Mexico tends to take
> a
> dim view of us bringing firearms into their country... And, of course,
> since
> I'm a Texan, I *always* have a gun or two in my plane...
>

I've flown from the Phoenix area to KELP a few times, each time with vectors
into "Mexican" airspace... however that airspace was still under control of
American FAA controlers. Now if i had proceeded INTO mexico then i would
get handed off to a Mex controler, and would probably need the DVFR flight
plan and all that good stuff. The big kicker is not in CROSSING a border
but LANDING across a border. Course everytime i went down I filed IFR, tho
the wx was severe clear (aside from the big brown cloud over Juarez, MX, i
thought PHX was bad!).

[Denny]

And, of course, since
I'm a Texan, I *always* have a gun or two in my plane...
************************************************** **

Then you are good to fly with me anytime... I hate hauling mooches who
expect me to supply the plane, the gas, and the shootin irons...

Reminds me of the time Frank, a third cousin from Arizona, came to
Michigan to visit family he had never seen... Frank had this good ol
pickemup truck, so me and another cousin jumped in and went to the
county fair <all teenagers at the time>... Whilst at the fair we
managed to get an older friend to buy a couple of pitchers of beer at
the FFA concession... Couldn't buy em myself because an aunt was at the
cash register and she was pretty strait laced - for you city folks,
that's how small towns used to be... Anyway, we were feeling pretty
cheerful on the way home and Frank allowed as how we ought do some
shooting, so we stopped the edge of my dad's woods.. Frank then rooted
around under the seat and came up with a six shooter... I was feeling
cheerful from the beer but I still knew the law... I mentioned to Frank
that in Michigan waving a handgun without a concealed carry permit was
a definite no-no... He was incredulous...
"Whut kinda state is this?", he said?
So, after doing some shooting we went on up to the house... He was
leaving back to Arizona the next morning so I suggested I had an old
steel tool box and a padlock that I would give him to lock his shooting
iron in for the trip back in case he got stopped by the highway
patrol..
"Well OK.", he says, "If it will hold my other guns."
That stopped even cousin Dave who wasn't holding his beer to well...
"Cripes, how many guns you got in here?", says I...
"Geez, I dunno, let me look."
After rooting around under the seats, behind the seat back, in the
glove compartment, and under the dash he came up with five more,
"shootin irons"! Including one he had forgotten about, "I wundered
whur thet one went to."

It was a different world back then... Opening day of bird hunting
season we got out of high school at 11AM to be out in the fields by the
noon starting time... The teachers and principal would all come out to
the parking lot and go around looking at everyones' shotguns and to
show off their shotguns... So we would have 50, or more, teenagers and
adults milling around with shotguns in their hands, on the school
grounds... Can you imagine the reaction to that today?

denny

[Paul Tomblin]

In a previous article, "Grumman-581" > said:
>"Chris" > wrote in message
...
>> No a flight plan must be filed when crossing an international border.
>
>Not always... Was flying back to Houston from SoCal a few years ago and
>landing in El Paso for the night and and to refuel... I was routed well

The original poster is being accused of violating a Canadian regulation,
so I don't see how a story about a flight between two different
countries, neither of them Canada, is at all relevant.

--
Paul Tomblin > http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/
And on the seventh day, He exited from append mode.

[Peter Duniho]

"Paul Tomblin" > wrote in message
...
> The original poster is being accused of violating a Canadian regulation,
> so I don't see how a story about a flight between two different
> countries, neither of them Canada, is at all relevant.

It's relevant to the post to which the story was posted in reply.

Oddly enough, you quoted enough of the thread to show that in your own post.
I don't know why you didn't notice the answer to your own question there.

Pete

[Montblack]

("Denny" wrote)
> It was a different world back then... Opening day of bird hunting season
> we got out of high school at 11AM to be out in the fields by the noon
> starting time... The teachers and principal would all come out to the
> parking lot and go around looking at everyones' shotguns and to show off
> their shotguns... So we would have 50, or more, teenagers and adults
> milling around with shotguns in their hands, on the school grounds... Can
> you imagine the reaction to that today?


Shop class project in 1973 - gun rack. One kid made a very nice wooden
hunting bow, which he later brought home on the school bus.

Forward to 2004. We're over at the local gun club (same land they want to
build the new Vikings Stadium on) and a couple of school buses full of high
school kids pull into the parking lot. Many of the kids are wearing their
letter jackets.

Bam, bam, bam, bam. They start blasting away at the clay targets with their
shotguns. "Pull." Bam, bam, bam, bam. I'm guessing five kids (boys and
girls) were shooting at any one time. There were maybe 50 kids there that
day, milling around, talking, laughing, shooting, drinking their pops and
waters.

The teacher and two other adults were hanging back around the picnic tables,
chatting, keeping an eye on things - talking to the kids who were finished
shooting. Maybe they were logging the scores?

My friend and I were dumbstruck, it was so cool.


Montblack

[Aluckyguess]

Write a letter stating that you filed a flight plan. Then tell them they
waited to long and the tapes had already been erased. Then tell them you
will consider the case closed and any further response will be done through
your lawyer. Tell them if it goes to court you will go after all fee's.
There is no way they can prove you didnt file.
If they respond just keep sending letters with the same thing, then send
them a bill. I bet they eventually get tired of dealing with it and just
drop it.
Have fun with it, and dont fly to Canada.

[Jose]

> There is no way they can prove you didnt file.

In Canada are you innocent until proven guilty, or is there a
presumption of guilt attached to an official accusation?

Jose
--
Nothing takes longer than a shortcut.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Skywise]

"Denny" > wrote in news:1143501960.738336.228340
@v46g2000cwv.googlegroups.com:

<Snipola>
> It was a different world back then... Opening day of bird hunting
> season we got out of high school at 11AM to be out in the fields by the
> noon starting time... The teachers and principal would all come out to
> the parking lot and go around looking at everyones' shotguns and to
> show off their shotguns... So we would have 50, or more, teenagers and
> adults milling around with shotguns in their hands, on the school
> grounds... Can you imagine the reaction to that today?
>
> denny

Back in '86 in high school, many kids dressed up for Halloween.
One girl I knew dressed as a police officer, borrowing one of her
fathers uniforms. She even had the .38. No bullets, of course. In
chemistry class we were playing with it and the teacher caught us.
"Put that away and pay attention."

Several years ago a kid was expelled from a school because he had a
keychain fob in the shape of a gun, about 1 inch in size, no moving
parts. "Zero tolerance policy".

Yes, times have changed.

Brian
--
http://www.skywise711.com - Lasers, Seismology, Astronomy, Skepticism
Seismic FAQ: http://www.skywise711.com/SeismicFAQ/SeismicFAQ.html
Quake "predictions": http://www.skywise711.com/quakes/EQDB/index.html
Sed quis custodiet ipsos Custodes?

[Peter Duniho]

> wrote in message
oups.com...
> [...]
> BTW, I had spoken to the Transport Canada investigator several times
> after making my FOIA request. At some point last fall, he said they
> were dropping their investigation because they weren't clear on whether
> I even needed to file a flight plan. Then this morning I got the
> letter saying I need to pay a fine. I wonder if the original
> investigator will answer his phone when I call him tomorrow.

Just be glad you aren't dealing with US officials. In the US, no one you
talk to in the bureaucracy would ever come close to admitting fault, and
they'd probably be threatening you with seizure of your airplane and your
pilot certificate or some such nonsense.

It's unfortunate that your experience has been so marked by bureaucratic
slip-ups, but I suspect that's all it is. And my experience with the
Canadian bureaucracy is that, if they are at times inefficient and sloppy
(as with all bureaucracies), they don't seem to have anything to prove and
are generally reasonably polite. This is based on interactions with their
Customs, their ATC, Transport Canada, and their equivalent of the US Forest
Service (don't recall the name at the moment).

I'd much rather deal with the Canadian government than my own, any day of
the week.

It sounds to me as though you are close to having your case closed, without
you having to pay the fine. It may involve some more red tape, but that's
par for the course for a bureaucracy.

> Bottom line - CYA when you fly to Canada. File IFR or tape your radio
> calls. I doubt I'll ever fly there again - high user fees, high gas
> prices, and disputes over whether I filed.

Well, if you never plan to fly there again, just tell the investigator the
next time you speak to him that you know you don't owe the fine, that you
aren't going to pay it, and that cleaning up the paperwork is his problem.
:)

Pete

[Grumman-581]

"nooneimportant" > wrote in message
news:stZVf.1862$qd.737@fed1read08...
> Course everytime i went down I filed IFR, tho
> the wx was severe clear (aside from the big
> brown cloud over Juarez, MX, i thought PHX
> was bad!).

Higher concentration of refried beans in Juarez than in Phoenix, I
suspect...

[Grumman-581]

"Denny" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> After rooting around under the seats, behind the seat back, in the
> glove compartment, and under the dash he came up with five more,
> "shootin irons"! Including one he had forgotten about, "I wundered
> whur thet one went to."

I seldom have more than 3 in any one particular vehicle... Unless I'm going
to the gun range or something... Most are locked up in my 1500 lb gun safe
at home...

> It was a different world back then... Opening day of bird hunting
> season we got out of high school at 11AM to be out in the fields by the
> noon starting time... The teachers and principal would all come out to
> the parking lot and go around looking at everyones' shotguns and to
> show off their shotguns... So we would have 50, or more, teenagers and
> adults milling around with shotguns in their hands, on the school
> grounds... Can you imagine the reaction to that today?

Where I went to high school, it was not uncommon to see shotguns and rifles
on racks in the back of trucks... Guys were likely to go hunting after
school... These days, they have different rules at that high school... Not
sure about the firearms, but they don't allow you to carry a knife with a
blade longer than 2" or so...

[Grumman-581]

"> Well, if you never plan to fly there again, just tell the investigator
the
> next time you speak to him that you know you don't owe the fine, that you
> aren't going to pay it, and that cleaning up the paperwork is his problem.
> :)

In other words, tell 'em to **** off like I said originally... Of course,
you'll need to translate it into Canadian for them... Try this:

"**** off, eh?"

[Grumman-581]

"Paul Tomblin" > wrote in message
...
> The original poster is being accused of violating a Canadian regulation,
> so I don't see how a story about a flight between two different
> countries, neither of them Canada, is at all relevant.

Follow the thread... "Chris" said "a flight plan must be filed when crossing
an international border"... The original post concerned crossing an
international border... My reply dealt with a personal experience where that
was not always the case...

You get to buy the next round...

[Neil Gould]

Recently, > posted:

> In case anyone's interested, here's the relevant Canadian regulations.
> They claim I busted (4).
>
> Requirement to File a Flight Plan or a Flight Itinerary
>
Didn't you have to notify Canadian Customs prior to your arrival? At I
know for a fact that customs keeps records for a *very* long time. It may
not prove that you filed your flight plan, but it might help to support
your claim that you did so.

Regards,

Neil

[Paul Tomblin]

In a previous article, "Grumman-581" > said:
>"Paul Tomblin" > wrote in message
...
>> The original poster is being accused of violating a Canadian regulation,
>> so I don't see how a story about a flight between two different
>> countries, neither of them Canada, is at all relevant.
>
>Follow the thread... "Chris" said "a flight plan must be filed when crossing
>an international border"... The original post concerned crossing an
>international border... My reply dealt with a personal experience where that
>was not always the case...

But the post that Chris was responding to was, like the subject line,
about Canadian regulations.

>You get to buy the next round...

You coming to Pickneyville? I might let you collect.

--
Paul Tomblin > http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/
Your mouse has moved. Windows NT must be restarted for the change to
take effect. Reboot now? [ OK ]

[Paul Tomblin]

In a previous article, Skywise > said:
>Several years ago a kid was expelled from a school because he had a
>keychain fob in the shape of a gun, about 1 inch in size, no moving
>parts. "Zero tolerance policy".

Zero Tolerance: Because it's easier than thinking.

--
Paul Tomblin > http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/
#define sizeof(x) ((int)rand()*1024)

[Jules]

But you didn't land in Mexico.




Grumman-581 wrote:
> "Chris" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>No a flight plan must be filed when crossing an international border.
>
>
> Not always... Was flying back to Houston from SoCal a few years ago and
> landing in El Paso for the night and and to refuel... I was routed well
> across the border by ATC and asked them about it... They said that they
> controlled the Mexican airspace, so it wouldn't be a problem... I have to
> think that if I had needed to make an emergency landing while south of the
> border, it defintely would have been a problem since Mexico tends to take a
> dim view of us bringing firearms into their country... And, of course, since
> I'm a Texan, I *always* have a gun or two in my plane...
>
>

[B A R R Y]

Peter R. wrote:
> > wrote:
>
>> So, basically Canada says I didn't file a flight plan and I don't have
>> any way of proving that I did. Anybody have any ideas on how to
>> dispute this or had a similar experience? (AOPA Legal was no help.
>> Their only suggestion was the FOIA request.)
>
> I would tackle as a customer/vendor relationship.

I like this idea and have found it to work very well in most situations.

[Jules]

Is this AOPA webpage where you 'filed' it? If so do they say it can be
used for cross border flights?

I believe you did plan it, file it and I am willing to believe you
opened it. And, that atc gave you a squawk. What I really think
happened, perhaps, is some guy somewhere, meant to open it, and let it
loose in the system, but got distracted.

Perhaps if you appealed on this basis. It could have bad consequences
for your insurance premiums if you own.

Some times a person can do everything proper and still......I thought it
only happens to me.





wrote:
> This morning I received a letter from Transport Canada informing me I
> am being fined $250 for not filing a flight plan. I had flown from
> Minot, ND to Regina, Canada on July 30, 2005. I had meticulously
> planned the flight using the AOPA webpage on the subject (got all the
> radio station permits, customs decal, etc.). I am absolutely sure that
> I had filed and activated a VFR flight plan for that flight. I had a
> squawk code and was getting flight following, but when I landed in
> Canada the FSS couldn't find my flight plan to close it. I was
> informed of the investigation by a phone call about a month after the
> flight. Conveniently for Transport Canada, Minot ATC erases their
> tapes after two weeks according to the manager of the Minot FSS. I
> submitted a Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) request to the Great
> Lakes Regional FSS as soon as I heard of the investigation in September
> 2005. As expected, Great Lakes said they don't keep records long
> enough to fill my request. BTW, they were terrible to deal with. The
> FOIA woman never answers her phone and never returned any of my calls.
> The only response from Great Lakes FSS was a letter in February 2006
> saying they no longer had records for that time period.
>
> So, basically Canada says I didn't file a flight plan and I don't have
> any way of proving that I did. Anybody have any ideas on how to
> dispute this or had a similar experience? (AOPA Legal was no help.
> Their only suggestion was the FOIA request.)
>
> Thanks,
> Bob
>

[Jon Kraus]

Look at the bright side... $250.00 US is only $197.50 Canadian...

Jon Kraus
'79 Mooney 201
4443H @ TYQ

wrote:

> This morning I received a letter from Transport Canada informing me I
> am being fined $250 for not filing a flight plan. I had flown from
> Minot, ND to Regina, Canada on July 30, 2005. I had meticulously
> planned the flight using the AOPA webpage on the subject (got all the
> radio station permits, customs decal, etc.). I am absolutely sure that
> I had filed and activated a VFR flight plan for that flight. I had a
> squawk code and was getting flight following, but when I landed in
> Canada the FSS couldn't find my flight plan to close it. I was
> informed of the investigation by a phone call about a month after the
> flight. Conveniently for Transport Canada, Minot ATC erases their
> tapes after two weeks according to the manager of the Minot FSS. I
> submitted a Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) request to the Great
> Lakes Regional FSS as soon as I heard of the investigation in September
> 2005. As expected, Great Lakes said they don't keep records long
> enough to fill my request. BTW, they were terrible to deal with. The
> FOIA woman never answers her phone and never returned any of my calls.
> The only response from Great Lakes FSS was a letter in February 2006
> saying they no longer had records for that time period.
>
> So, basically Canada says I didn't file a flight plan and I don't have
> any way of proving that I did. Anybody have any ideas on how to
> dispute this or had a similar experience? (AOPA Legal was no help.
> Their only suggestion was the FOIA request.)
>
> Thanks,
> Bob
>

[Jon Kraus]

Jon Kraus wrote:

> Look at the bright side... $250.00 Canadian is only $197.50 US...
>
> Jon Kraus
> '79 Mooney 201
> 4443H @ TYQ
>
> wrote:
>
>> This morning I received a letter from Transport Canada informing me I
>> am being fined $250 for not filing a flight plan. I had flown from
>> Minot, ND to Regina, Canada on July 30, 2005. I had meticulously
>> planned the flight using the AOPA webpage on the subject (got all the
>> radio station permits, customs decal, etc.). I am absolutely sure that
>> I had filed and activated a VFR flight plan for that flight. I had a
>> squawk code and was getting flight following, but when I landed in
>> Canada the FSS couldn't find my flight plan to close it. I was
>> informed of the investigation by a phone call about a month after the
>> flight. Conveniently for Transport Canada, Minot ATC erases their
>> tapes after two weeks according to the manager of the Minot FSS. I
>> submitted a Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) request to the Great
>> Lakes Regional FSS as soon as I heard of the investigation in September
>> 2005. As expected, Great Lakes said they don't keep records long
>> enough to fill my request. BTW, they were terrible to deal with. The
>> FOIA woman never answers her phone and never returned any of my calls.
>> The only response from Great Lakes FSS was a letter in February 2006
>> saying they no longer had records for that time period.
>>
>> So, basically Canada says I didn't file a flight plan and I don't have
>> any way of proving that I did. Anybody have any ideas on how to
>> dispute this or had a similar experience? (AOPA Legal was no help.
>> Their only suggestion was the FOIA request.)
>> Thanks,
>> Bob
>>

[RST Engineering]

I think ya went the wrong way...

Jim



"Jon Kraus" > wrote in message
. ..
> Look at the bright side... $250.00 US is only $197.50 Canadian...
>
> Jon Kraus
> '79 Mooney 201
> 4443H @ TYQ
>
> wrote:
>
>> This morning I received a letter from Transport Canada informing me I
>> am being fined $250 for not filing a flight plan.

[Doug]

Yeah, send them a check for 192.50. It will drive them nuts.

[Montblack]

("Paul Tomblin" wrote)
>>Several years ago a kid was expelled from a school because he had a
>>keychain fob in the shape of a gun, about 1 inch in size, no moving parts.
>>"Zero tolerance policy".

> Zero Tolerance: Because it's easier than thinking.


http://www.religioustolerance.org/sikhism4.htm
or
<http://www.canadianchristianity.com/cgi-bin/na.cgi?nationalupdates/060309daggers>
or
http://www.sepiamutiny.com/sepia/archives/003081.html

Don't even get me started ...!!!!!!

http://altreligion.about.com/library/glossary/symbols/bldefskirpan.htm
It's not a weapon because "they" claim it's not a weapon?? That's ok...but
Johnny draws a tank, with soldiers next to it, in 3rd grade and he's
suspended. WTF???


Montblackandwhitesometimes

[Jim Macklin]

Do like Bill Lear, he sent the IRS his income tax check in
the form of a titanium plate with the name and account
number and amount written with tig weld.



--
James H. Macklin
ATP,CFI,A&P

--
The people think the Constitution protects their rights;
But government sees it as an obstacle to be overcome.
some support
http://www.usdoj.gov/olc/secondamendment2.htm
See http://www.fija.org/ more about your rights and duties.


"Doug" > wrote in message
oups.com...
| Yeah, send them a check for 192.50. It will drive them
nuts.
|

[Skywise]

"Montblack" > wrote in
:

<Snipola>
> ok...but Johnny draws a tank, with soldiers next to it, in 3rd grade and
> he's suspended. WTF???

This comment about drawing a tank reminded me of a game me and
a few classmates used to play. We had this way of drawing 'bombs'
that had to be solved within a time limit and hide them in each
others desks & bookbags. Sheesh...today we'd probably be considered
suicide bombers in training.

Brian
--
http://www.skywise711.com - Lasers, Seismology, Astronomy, Skepticism
Seismic FAQ: http://www.skywise711.com/SeismicFAQ/SeismicFAQ.html
Quake "predictions": http://www.skywise711.com/quakes/EQDB/index.html
Sed quis custodiet ipsos Custodes?

[Skywise]

"Jim Macklin" > wrote in news:wboWf.1382
$t22.1164@dukeread08:

> Do like Bill Lear, he sent the IRS his income tax check in
> the form of a titanium plate with the name and account
> number and amount written with tig weld.

That reminds me of the plan I have if I am ever forced to
pay something 'totally bogus', like the next undeserved
parking ticket. I'll show up with the payment in the form
of roles of pennies. :)

Brian
--
http://www.skywise711.com - Lasers, Seismology, Astronomy, Skepticism
Seismic FAQ: http://www.skywise711.com/SeismicFAQ/SeismicFAQ.html
Quake "predictions": http://www.skywise711.com/quakes/EQDB/index.html
Sed quis custodiet ipsos Custodes?

[Jim Macklin]

A friend of mine took some ears of a fox into the county to
get the bounty [many,many] many years ago. The lady behind
the counter said they were dog ears and wouldn't pay him the
$2 or what ever it was. But he had her at the short end of
the stick. He went out to his truck and got the whole
bloody carcass and dragged it up the steps to the new county
office building and tossed it up on her counter and pointed
out that the ears matched the fox.
He got his $2.
The next time he was there, they had posted a sign that said
they would not pay the bounty if you brought in more than
just the ears.


For the PETA folks out there, this was a state run program
because the farmers were worried about their chickens.


"Skywise" > wrote in message
...
| "Jim Macklin" > wrote
in news:wboWf.1382
| $t22.1164@dukeread08:
|
| > Do like Bill Lear, he sent the IRS his income tax check
in
| > the form of a titanium plate with the name and account
| > number and amount written with tig weld.
|
| That reminds me of the plan I have if I am ever forced to
| pay something 'totally bogus', like the next undeserved
| parking ticket. I'll show up with the payment in the form
| of roles of pennies. :)
|
| Brian
| --
| http://www.skywise711.com - Lasers, Seismology, Astronomy,
Skepticism
| Seismic FAQ:
http://www.skywise711.com/SeismicFAQ/SeismicFAQ.html
| Quake "predictions":
http://www.skywise711.com/quakes/EQDB/index.html
| Sed quis custodiet ipsos Custodes?

[Grumman-581]

"Skywise" > wrote in message
...
> That reminds me of the plan I have if I am ever forced to
> pay something 'totally bogus', like the next undeserved
> parking ticket. I'll show up with the payment in the form
> of roles of pennies. :)

Why make it convenient for them by putting the pennies in rolls?

I'm assuming you meant "rolls", not "roles"... Otherwise, there's something
kinky probably going on...

[r. mutt]

Reminding us once again what scum people really are.


"Jim Macklin" > wrote in message
news:m5qWf.1400$t22.319@dukeread08...
>A friend of mine took some ears of a fox into the county to
> get the bounty [many,many] many years ago. The lady behind
> the counter said they were dog ears and wouldn't pay him the
> $2 or what ever it was. But he had her at the short end of
> the stick. He went out to his truck and got the whole
> bloody carcass and dragged it up the steps to the new county
> office building and tossed it up on her counter and pointed
> out that the ears matched the fox.
> He got his $2.
> The next time he was there, they had posted a sign that said
> they would not pay the bounty if you brought in more than
> just the ears.
>
>
> For the PETA folks out there, this was a state run program
> because the farmers were worried about their chickens.
>
>
> "Skywise" > wrote in message
> ...
> | "Jim Macklin" > wrote
> in news:wboWf.1382
> | $t22.1164@dukeread08:
> |
> | > Do like Bill Lear, he sent the IRS his income tax check
> in
> | > the form of a titanium plate with the name and account
> | > number and amount written with tig weld.
> |
> | That reminds me of the plan I have if I am ever forced to
> | pay something 'totally bogus', like the next undeserved
> | parking ticket. I'll show up with the payment in the form
> | of roles of pennies. :)
> |
> | Brian
> | --
> | http://www.skywise711.com - Lasers, Seismology, Astronomy,
> Skepticism
> | Seismic FAQ:
> http://www.skywise711.com/SeismicFAQ/SeismicFAQ.html
> | Quake "predictions":
> http://www.skywise711.com/quakes/EQDB/index.html
> | Sed quis custodiet ipsos Custodes?
>
>

[Jim Macklin]

The lady behind the counter?



"r. mutt" <nofishin.net> wrote in message
...
|
|
| Reminding us once again what scum people really are.
|
|
| "Jim Macklin" > wrote
in message
| news:m5qWf.1400$t22.319@dukeread08...
| >A friend of mine took some ears of a fox into the county
to
| > get the bounty [many,many] many years ago. The lady
behind
| > the counter said they were dog ears and wouldn't pay him
the
| > $2 or what ever it was. But he had her at the short end
of
| > the stick. He went out to his truck and got the whole
| > bloody carcass and dragged it up the steps to the new
county
| > office building and tossed it up on her counter and
pointed
| > out that the ears matched the fox.
| > He got his $2.
| > The next time he was there, they had posted a sign that
said
| > they would not pay the bounty if you brought in more
than
| > just the ears.
| >
| >
| > For the PETA folks out there, this was a state run
program
| > because the farmers were worried about their chickens.
| >
| >
| > "Skywise" > wrote in message
| > ...
| > | "Jim Macklin" >
wrote
| > in news:wboWf.1382
| > | $t22.1164@dukeread08:
| > |
| > | > Do like Bill Lear, he sent the IRS his income tax
check
| > in
| > | > the form of a titanium plate with the name and
account
| > | > number and amount written with tig weld.
| > |
| > | That reminds me of the plan I have if I am ever forced
to
| > | pay something 'totally bogus', like the next
undeserved
| > | parking ticket. I'll show up with the payment in the
form
| > | of roles of pennies. :)
| > |
| > | Brian
| > | --
| > | http://www.skywise711.com - Lasers, Seismology,
Astronomy,
| > Skepticism
| > | Seismic FAQ:
| > http://www.skywise711.com/SeismicFAQ/SeismicFAQ.html
| > | Quake "predictions":
| > http://www.skywise711.com/quakes/EQDB/index.html
| > | Sed quis custodiet ipsos Custodes?
| >
| >
|
|

[James Robinson]

Skywise > wrote:
>
> That reminds me of the plan I have if I am ever forced to
> pay something 'totally bogus', like the next undeserved
> parking ticket. I'll show up with the payment in the form
> of roles of pennies. :)

Which they can legally refuse to accept, just as they can refuse to accept
large bills, and you are still liable for the debt in reasonable-sized
currency.

[Matt Barrow]

"Grumman-581" > wrote in message
...
> "Skywise" > wrote in message
> ...
>> That reminds me of the plan I have if I am ever forced to
>> pay something 'totally bogus', like the next undeserved
>> parking ticket. I'll show up with the payment in the form
>> of roles of pennies. :)
>
> Why make it convenient for them by putting the pennies in rolls?
>
> I'm assuming you meant "rolls", not "roles"... Otherwise, there's
> something
> kinky probably going on...
>
Role playing.

[MaulePilot]

Don't pay-em. The *******s got off easy not standing next to us in
Iraq.
God Bless the Brit's and Australians. ( and all the allied countries)

[Matt Barrow]

"cavedweller" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> MaulePilot wrote:
>> Don't pay-em. The *******s got off easy not standing next to us in
>> Iraq.
>> God Bless the Brit's and Australians. ( and all the allied countries)
>
> ....and on 9/11 all your inbounds were diverted to London and
> Melbourne, eh?
>
And that's relevant...how?

[cavedweller]

Matt Barrow wrote:
> "cavedweller" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
> >
> > MaulePilot wrote:
> >> Don't pay-em. The *******s got off easy not standing next to us in
> >> Iraq.
> >> God Bless the Brit's and Australians. ( and all the allied countries)
> >
> > ....and on 9/11 all your inbounds were diverted to London and
> > Melbourne, eh?
> >
> And that's relevant...how?

Well, you could refresh your memories about how a bunch of *******s
took in passengers from aircraft diverted into, say, Gander. But then,
that doesn't count, does it?

[James Robinson]

"MaulePilot" > wrote:

> Don't pay-em. The *******s got off easy not standing next to us in
> Iraq.
> God Bless the Brit's and Australians. ( and all the allied countries)

Actually, the Canadians have one of the largest military groups now serving
in the middle east. You are unfairly criticizing them.

Just yesterday, one of their soldiers was killed in an ambush in
Afghanistan, alongside a US soldier.

The reason they have a large presence is that not only did they send
soldiers to support the fighting in Afghanistan, they also sent warships to
the Gulf to support the blockade, and I believe they are still there
supporting continuing Naval operations. They also have a base in
Afghanistan, and their officers have a presence in Iraq through the
military officer exchange programs with the US.

Overall, numerically they are one of the larger coalition military groups
in the area.

[Ken Chaddock]

Grumman-581 wrote:
> > wrote in message
> ups.com...
>
>>Anybody have any ideas on how to
>>dispute this or had a similar experience?
>
>
> Do you ever plan on going to Canada again? If not, tell 'em to **** off...
> It's not like they can extradite you, right?

No, just seize your plane if you ever set down in Canada again...have a
nice day :-)

....Ken

[Ken Chaddock]

wrote:

> This morning I received a letter from Transport Canada informing me I
> am being fined $250 for not filing a flight plan. I had flown from
> Minot, ND to Regina, Canada on July 30, 2005. I had meticulously
> planned the flight using the AOPA webpage on the subject (got all the
> radio station permits, customs decal, etc.). I am absolutely sure that
> I had filed and activated a VFR flight plan for that flight. I had a
> squawk code and was getting flight following, but when I landed in
> Canada the FSS couldn't find my flight plan to close it. I was
> informed of the investigation by a phone call about a month after the
> flight. Conveniently for Transport Canada, Minot ATC erases their
> tapes after two weeks according to the manager of the Minot FSS. I
> submitted a Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) request to the Great
> Lakes Regional FSS as soon as I heard of the investigation in September
> 2005. As expected, Great Lakes said they don't keep records long
> enough to fill my request. BTW, they were terrible to deal with. The
> FOIA woman never answers her phone and never returned any of my calls.
> The only response from Great Lakes FSS was a letter in February 2006
> saying they no longer had records for that time period.
>
> So, basically Canada says I didn't file a flight plan and I don't have
> any way of proving that I did. Anybody have any ideas on how to
> dispute this or had a similar experience? (AOPA Legal was no help.
> Their only suggestion was the FOIA request.)
>
> Thanks,
> Bob

Well Bob I'm sorry for you, but it doesn't sound much to me like you
are being shafted by Transport Canada more so by Minot FSS, Great Lakes
Regional FSS and the "FOIA woman" who won't answer or return your calls.
What do you expect Transport Canada to do...take your word for it ?
They have no record of your flight plan...considering the level of
service you've received from you own FSS people so far I'd speculate
that it probably wasn't passed on to NavCan...and now your own FSS
people can't/won't confirm that you actually DID file one...from
Transport Canada's perspective you NEVER DID file a flight plan...

....Ken

[Skywise]

"Grumman-581" > wrote in
:

> "Skywise" > wrote in message
> ...
>> That reminds me of the plan I have if I am ever forced to
>> pay something 'totally bogus', like the next undeserved
>> parking ticket. I'll show up with the payment in the form
>> of roles of pennies. :)
>
> Why make it convenient for them by putting the pennies in rolls?
>
> I'm assuming you meant "rolls", not "roles"... Otherwise, there's something
> kinky probably going on...

Yes..."rolls". I forget how to spell from time to time. It also
doesn't help when I can't type but maybe 1/10'th as fast as I
can think. My fingers start tripping all over each other.

But, you do have a point. Why put them in rolls? How about a
bunch of dirty old socks? :)

Brian
--
http://www.skywise711.com - Lasers, Seismology, Astronomy, Skepticism
Seismic FAQ: http://www.skywise711.com/SeismicFAQ/SeismicFAQ.html
Quake "predictions": http://www.skywise711.com/quakes/EQDB/index.html
Sed quis custodiet ipsos Custodes?

[Skywise]

James Robinson > wrote in
. 97.142:

> Skywise > wrote:
>>
>> That reminds me of the plan I have if I am ever forced to
>> pay something 'totally bogus', like the next undeserved
>> parking ticket. I'll show up with the payment in the form
>> of roles of pennies. :)
>
> Which they can legally refuse to accept, just as they can refuse to accept
> large bills, and you are still liable for the debt in reasonable-sized
> currency.

Oh really? Then I guess I'll have to make sure to have a video
camera with me so I can document the whole "discussion". :)

I can understand the large bills argument. They may not be
able to make change. But that wouldn't apply to the pennies.

Brian
--
http://www.skywise711.com - Lasers, Seismology, Astronomy, Skepticism
Seismic FAQ: http://www.skywise711.com/SeismicFAQ/SeismicFAQ.html
Quake "predictions": http://www.skywise711.com/quakes/EQDB/index.html
Sed quis custodiet ipsos Custodes?

[Grumman-581]

"Ken Chaddock" > wrote in message
news:NdBWf.20839$%H.13422@clgrps13...
> No, just seize your plane if you ever set down in Canada again...have a
> nice day :-)

Like I said, if he's *not* going to be going to Canada again...

[Grumman-581]

"Skywise" > wrote in message
...
> But, you do have a point. Why put them in rolls? How about a
> bunch of dirty old socks? :)

Or condoms?

[Gig 601XL Builder]

"Morgans" > wrote in message
...
>
> "James Robinson" > wrote
>
>> Which they can legally refuse to accept, just as they can refuse to
>> accept
>> large bills, and you are still liable for the debt in reasonable-sized
>> currency.
>
> I don't think that is correct. If it is legal tender, they are obligated
> to
> take it, or forfeit payment for the goods/services.
> --
> Jim in NC
>

No

http://www.snopes.com/business/money/pennies.asp

[Morgans]

"James Robinson" > wrote

> Which they can legally refuse to accept, just as they can refuse to accept
> large bills, and you are still liable for the debt in reasonable-sized
> currency.

I don't think that is correct. If it is legal tender, they are obligated to
take it, or forfeit payment for the goods/services.
--
Jim in NC

[James Robinson]

Skywise > wrote:
>
> James Robinson > wrote:
>
>> Skywise > wrote:
>>>
>>> That reminds me of the plan I have if I am ever forced to
>>> pay something 'totally bogus', like the next undeserved
>>> parking ticket. I'll show up with the payment in the form
>>> of roles of pennies. :)
>>
>> Which they can legally refuse to accept, just as they can refuse to
>> accept large bills, and you are still liable for the debt in
>> reasonable-sized currency.
>
> Oh really? Then I guess I'll have to make sure to have a video
> camera with me so I can document the whole "discussion". :)
>
> I can understand the large bills argument. They may not be
> able to make change. But that wouldn't apply to the pennies.

It does apply to pennies. There was a famous court case where a man
paid a lawyer with $1,000 in loose pennies.

The lawyer accepted the payment, then sent him a further bill for the
$100 fee the bank demanded to count and roll up the pennies, plus $275
for the lawyer's time in arranging for the deposit. It went to court,
and the lawyer won the case, since payment in pennies was considered to
be deliberately intended to cause harm. It was affirmed on appeal to the
state Appeals Court. The payor vows to go to the State Supreme Court.

Hey, I even found an article on the very case:

http://www.law.com/jsp/article.jsp?id=1120208723965

Here is the opinion on the subject from the US Treasury:

http://www.ustreas.gov/education/faq/currency/legal-tender.html#q1

.... and another site on the subject:

http://tafkac.org/faq2k/legal_552.html

[Skywise]

"Grumman-581" > wrote in
:

> "Skywise" > wrote in message
> ...
>> But, you do have a point. Why put them in rolls? How about a
>> bunch of dirty old socks? :)
>
> Or condoms?

Dirty and old? ewwwwwww

Brian
--
http://www.skywise711.com - Lasers, Seismology, Astronomy, Skepticism
Seismic FAQ: http://www.skywise711.com/SeismicFAQ/SeismicFAQ.html
Quake "predictions": http://www.skywise711.com/quakes/EQDB/index.html
Sed quis custodiet ipsos Custodes?

[Skywise]

James Robinson > wrote in
. 97.142:

<Snipola>
> It does apply to pennies. There was a famous court case where a man
> paid a lawyer with $1,000 in loose pennies.
<Snipola of details>

Then I just won't do that to a lawyer, then. :)

I was thinking more along the lines of simple parking tickets or
somesuch.

Brian
--
http://www.skywise711.com - Lasers, Seismology, Astronomy, Skepticism
Seismic FAQ: http://www.skywise711.com/SeismicFAQ/SeismicFAQ.html
Quake "predictions": http://www.skywise711.com/quakes/EQDB/index.html
Sed quis custodiet ipsos Custodes?

[Matt Barrow]

"cavedweller" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> Matt Barrow wrote:
>> "cavedweller" > wrote in message
>> oups.com...
>> >
>> > MaulePilot wrote:
>> >> Don't pay-em. The *******s got off easy not standing next to us in
>> >> Iraq.
>> >> God Bless the Brit's and Australians. ( and all the allied countries)
>> >
>> > ....and on 9/11 all your inbounds were diverted to London and
>> > Melbourne, eh?
>> >
>> And that's relevant...how?
>
> Well, you could refresh your memories about how a bunch of *******s
> took in passengers from aircraft diverted into, say, Gander. But then,
> that doesn't count, does it?

Wow! They they tucked their weiners into their anal cavities.

[Matt Barrow]

"James Robinson" > wrote in message
. 97.142...
> "MaulePilot" > wrote:
>
>> Don't pay-em. The *******s got off easy not standing next to us in
>> Iraq.
>> God Bless the Brit's and Australians. ( and all the allied countries)
>
> Actually, the Canadians have one of the largest military groups now
> serving
> in the middle east. You are unfairly criticizing them.
>
> Just yesterday, one of their soldiers was killed in an ambush in
> Afghanistan, alongside a US soldier.
>
> The reason they have a large presence is that not only did they send
> soldiers to support the fighting in Afghanistan, they also sent warships
> to
> the Gulf to support the blockade, and I believe they are still there
> supporting continuing Naval operations. They also have a base in
> Afghanistan, and their officers have a presence in Iraq through the
> military officer exchange programs with the US.
>
> Overall, numerically they are one of the larger coalition military groups
> in the area.

Got some numbers?

[Matt Barrow]

"Ken Chaddock" > wrote in message
news:NdBWf.20839$%H.13422@clgrps13...
> Grumman-581 wrote:
>> > wrote in message
>> ups.com...
>>
>>>Anybody have any ideas on how to
>>>dispute this or had a similar experience?
>>
>>
>> Do you ever plan on going to Canada again? If not, tell 'em to ****
>> off...
>> It's not like they can extradite you, right?
>
> No, just seize your plane if you ever set down in Canada again...have a
> nice day :-)
>
That's his point: Not going back.

[Matt Barrow]

"Grumman-581" > wrote in message
...
> "Skywise" > wrote in message
> ...
>> But, you do have a point. Why put them in rolls? How about a
>> bunch of dirty old socks? :)
>
> Or condoms?

Used ones.

[James Robinson]

"Matt Barrow" > wrote:

>
> "James Robinson" > wrote in message
> . 97.142...
>> "MaulePilot" > wrote:
>>
>>> Don't pay-em. The *******s got off easy not standing next to us
>>> in Iraq.
>>> God Bless the Brit's and Australians. ( and all the allied
>>> countries)
>>
>> Actually, the Canadians have one of the largest military groups now
>> serving
>> in the middle east. You are unfairly criticizing them.
>>
>> Just yesterday, one of their soldiers was killed in an ambush in
>> Afghanistan, alongside a US soldier.
>>
>> The reason they have a large presence is that not only did they send
>> soldiers to support the fighting in Afghanistan, they also sent
>> warships to
>> the Gulf to support the blockade, and I believe they are still there
>> supporting continuing Naval operations. They also have a base in
>> Afghanistan, and their officers have a presence in Iraq through the
>> military officer exchange programs with the US.
>>
>> Overall, numerically they are one of the larger coalition military
>> groups in the area.
>
> Got some numbers?

While Canada did not specifically join the "Coalition of the willing" in
attacking Iraq, they sent two frigates and a destroyer to the Gulf
region, which were active during the war, plus military planners were
stationed at the Coalition headquarters in Qatar during the invasion.
At the moment, there are something like 2,300 Canadian troops in
Afghanistan.

[Doug]

Bush hates Canada.

[cavedweller]

Matt Barrow wrote:
> "cavedweller" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
> >
> > Matt Barrow wrote:
> >> "cavedweller" > wrote in message
> >> oups.com...
> >> >
> >> > MaulePilot wrote:
> >> >> Don't pay-em. The *******s got off easy not standing next to us in
> >> >> Iraq.
> >> >> God Bless the Brit's and Australians. ( and all the allied countries)
> >> >
> >> > ....and on 9/11 all your inbounds were diverted to London and
> >> > Melbourne, eh?
> >> >
> >> And that's relevant...how?
> >
> > Well, you could refresh your memories about how a bunch of *******s
> > took in passengers from aircraft diverted into, say, Gander. But then,
> > that doesn't count, does it?
>
> Wow! They they tucked their weiners into their anal cavities.

And that's relevant, how?

[cavedweller]

Matt Barrow wrote:
> "cavedweller" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
> >
> > Matt Barrow wrote:
> >> "cavedweller" > wrote in message
> >> oups.com...
> >> >
> >> > MaulePilot wrote:
> >> >> Don't pay-em. The *******s got off easy not standing next to us in
> >> >> Iraq.
> >> >> God Bless the Brit's and Australians. ( and all the allied countries)
> >> >
> >> > ....and on 9/11 all your inbounds were diverted to London and
> >> > Melbourne, eh?
> >> >
> >> And that's relevant...how?
> >
> > Well, you could refresh your memories about how a bunch of *******s
> > took in passengers from aircraft diverted into, say, Gander. But then,
> > that doesn't count, does it?
>
> Wow! They they tucked their weiners into their anal cavities.

And that's relevant, how?

[Matt Barrow]

"Doug" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Bush hates Canada.
>
The feeling is mutual.

[cavedweller]

Matt Barrow wrote:
> "Doug" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
> > Bush hates Canada.
> >
> The feeling is mutual.

Got some numbers?

[[email protected]]

>> > ....and on 9/11 all your inbounds were diverted to London and
>> > Melbourne, eh?


>> And that's relevant...how?



>Well, you could refresh your memories about how a bunch of *******s
>took in passengers from aircraft diverted into, say, Gander. But then,
>that doesn't count, does it?

And in Halifax, NS. And Vancouver, BC. And Calgary, AB.
A picture of the Gander Airport with all the US-bound 9/11 airliners:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:GanderInternationalAirport911.jpg
And another of Halifax, same problem:
http://www.airliners.net/open.file/0188171/M/

There are Americans who return to these places; they have
great memories of their stays with Canadian families and come back to
see them. We're not all jerks.

Dan

[Doug]

Don't have any numbers, but it started with the lumber embargo
immediately upon Bush's election (so much for Bush being in favor of
"free trade"). Then an overeaction to the two mad cow episodes with a
beef embargo and then the Iraq war. There are some other things. And
you can tell it from his attitude, he just doesn't like Canada. And it
is much to the US's detriment NOT to have Canada as a good ally. Also,
unless a subsequent administration changed it, Americans are going to
need passports to re-enter the USA from Canada and the US is major
hassling Canadians that work in the US....Maybe hate isn't the right
word, but the Bush administration is mishandling Canadian relations.

[Jose]

> Maybe hate isn't the right
> word, but the Bush administration is mishandling Canadian relations.

It is handling Canadian relations just as well as it's handling all
other relations.

Jose
--
Nothing takes longer than a shortcut.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[cavedweller]

wrote:

>We're not all jerks.
>
> Dan

No argument from me there, Dan. I only take issue with those who
behave like they are.

[Happy Dog]

"Andrew Sarangan" > wrote in message
> wrote:
>> This morning I received a letter from Transport Canada informing me I
>> am being fined $250 for not filing a flight plan. I had flown from
>> Minot, ND to Regina, Canada on July 30, 2005. I had meticulously
>> planned the flight using the AOPA webpage on the subject (got all the
>> radio station permits, customs decal, etc.). I am absolutely sure that
>> I had filed and activated a VFR flight plan for that flight. I had a
>> squawk code and was getting flight following, but when I landed in
>> Canada the FSS couldn't find my flight plan to close it. I was
>> informed of the investigation by a phone call about a month after the
>> flight. Conveniently for Transport Canada, Minot ATC erases their
>> tapes after two weeks according to the manager of the Minot FSS. I
>> submitted a Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) request to the Great
>> Lakes Regional FSS as soon as I heard of the investigation in September
>> 2005. As expected, Great Lakes said they don't keep records long
>> enough to fill my request. BTW, they were terrible to deal with. The
>> FOIA woman never answers her phone and never returned any of my calls.
>> The only response from Great Lakes FSS was a letter in February 2006
>> saying they no longer had records for that time period.
>>
>> So, basically Canada says I didn't file a flight plan and I don't have
>> any way of proving that I did. Anybody have any ideas on how to
>> dispute this or had a similar experience? (AOPA Legal was no help.
>> Their only suggestion was the FOIA request.)
>>
>
> This may be a tough one. U.S. and Canada both say you need a flight
> plan, but they do not say that it is sufficient to file the flight plan
> with one country and assume that it will be transmitted to the other
> country. The best thing would have been to file two flight plans and
> activate the second one as you cross the border.

NY FSS has a recorded advisory to contact an FSS in whatever country you're
flying to immediately after entering their airspace and to advise the
briefer that you have this advisory. I gather they don't do this where you
fly from. It;s not uncommon for the information to go missing.

moo

[[email protected]]

The issue was resolved in a discussion with a manager at Transport
Canada. I explained how I had tried to gather proof of the filing and
activation of the flight plan and how I had filed and activated plans
for all the other legs in Canada. Also, I explained how I had even
tried to close the flight plan after landing in Canada.

The regional manager dropped the case stating there was insufficient
evidence. I found the officials in Canada very responsive to my calls
(unlike the FOIA people) and the issue was resolved a lot quicker than
I expected. The bottom line is you might want to file IFR if going to
Canada.






Ken Chaddock wrote:
> wrote:
>
> > This morning I received a letter from Transport Canada informing me I
> > am being fined $250 for not filing a flight plan. I had flown from
> > Minot, ND to Regina, Canada on July 30, 2005. I had meticulously
> > planned the flight using the AOPA webpage on the subject (got all the
> > radio station permits, customs decal, etc.). I am absolutely sure that
> > I had filed and activated a VFR flight plan for that flight. I had a
> > squawk code and was getting flight following, but when I landed in
> > Canada the FSS couldn't find my flight plan to close it. I was
> > informed of the investigation by a phone call about a month after the
> > flight. Conveniently for Transport Canada, Minot ATC erases their
> > tapes after two weeks according to the manager of the Minot FSS. I
> > submitted a Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) request to the Great
> > Lakes Regional FSS as soon as I heard of the investigation in September
> > 2005. As expected, Great Lakes said they don't keep records long
> > enough to fill my request. BTW, they were terrible to deal with. The
> > FOIA woman never answers her phone and never returned any of my calls.
> > The only response from Great Lakes FSS was a letter in February 2006
> > saying they no longer had records for that time period.
> >
> > So, basically Canada says I didn't file a flight plan and I don't have
> > any way of proving that I did. Anybody have any ideas on how to
> > dispute this or had a similar experience? (AOPA Legal was no help.
> > Their only suggestion was the FOIA request.)
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Bob
>
> Well Bob I'm sorry for you, but it doesn't sound much to me like you
> are being shafted by Transport Canada more so by Minot FSS, Great Lakes
> Regional FSS and the "FOIA woman" who won't answer or return your calls.
> What do you expect Transport Canada to do...take your word for it ?
> They have no record of your flight plan...considering the level of
> service you've received from you own FSS people so far I'd speculate
> that it probably wasn't passed on to NavCan...and now your own FSS
> people can't/won't confirm that you actually DID file one...from
> Transport Canada's perspective you NEVER DID file a flight plan...
>
> ...Ken

[Neil Gould]

Recently, > posted:

> The issue was resolved in a discussion with a manager at Transport
> Canada. I explained how I had tried to gather proof of the filing and
> activation of the flight plan and how I had filed and activated plans
> for all the other legs in Canada. Also, I explained how I had even
> tried to close the flight plan after landing in Canada.
>
> The regional manager dropped the case stating there was insufficient
> evidence. I found the officials in Canada very responsive to my calls
> (unlike the FOIA people) and the issue was resolved a lot quicker than
> I expected. The bottom line is you might want to file IFR if going to
> Canada.
>
Out of curiosity... what is the difference between filing IFR vs. VFR for
such flights? The problem you ran into appears to be a loss of
documentation that you had filed, not which way you had filed. The
procedure that I follow is to contact CanPass as part of the flight
planning. At that point, they know you've filed, and the details of those
records stand for a long time.

Neil

[Grumman-581]

"B A R R Y" wrote in message
...
> So much for all the "screw 'em!" responses, eh?

Nawh, now it just turns into a gun thread...

[john smith]

> No a flight plan must be filed when crossing an international border.

No you don't.
When flying from Columbus, Ohio to Port Huron, Michigan, I overfly
Ontario to get there without filing a flight plan. I don't even talk to
anyone the whole route.

[Chris]

"john smith" > wrote in message
...
>> No a flight plan must be filed when crossing an international border.
>
> No you don't.
> When flying from Columbus, Ohio to Port Huron, Michigan, I overfly
> Ontario to get there without filing a flight plan. I don't even talk to
> anyone the whole route.

well done for waking up!

[Happy Dog]

"john smith" > wrote in message
...
>> No a flight plan must be filed when crossing an international border.
>
> No you don't.
> When flying from Columbus, Ohio to Port Huron, Michigan, I overfly
> Ontario to get there without filing a flight plan. I don't even talk to
> anyone the whole route.

Explain why you aren't aware of this:

http://www.tc.gc.ca/CivilAviation/publications/tp14371/FAL/2-0.htm
"Private aircraft overflying or landing in Canada for non-commercial
purposes need not obtain prior permission; however, a flight plan must be
filed."

Common sense should tell you that what you state as fact is a bad idea. Did
you ask anyone or otherwise try to educate yourself on this issue before
taking off?

FYI, as one might suspect, it's the same in the States:

http://www.faa.gov/ats/aat/ifim/ifimcaai.htm

Especially since 9/11, and especially in the USA, a pilot is in serious ****
if they enter foreign airspace and in really deep **** if they land without
following proper procedures. How does that affect your decision making
process vis a vis some problem that doesn't absolutely require a diversion
but might suggest a prudent brief stop to check something out?

moo

[john smith]

In article >,
"Happy Dog" > wrote:

> http://www.tc.gc.ca/CivilAviation/publications/tp14371/FAL/2-0.htm

What date did that go into effect?
Not including Lake Eric and Lake St Claire, I cross maybe five miles of
Canadian soil.

[Happy Dog]

"john smith" > wrote in message
> In article >,
> "Happy Dog" > wrote:
>
>> http://www.tc.gc.ca/CivilAviation/publications/tp14371/FAL/2-0.htm
>
> What date did that go into effect?

Dunno. Ask them.

> Not including Lake Eric and Lake St Claire, I cross maybe five miles of
> Canadian soil.

You really shouldn't make this sort of public statement.

moo

[Andrew Sarangan]

john smith wrote:
> In article >,
> "Happy Dog" > wrote:
>
> > http://www.tc.gc.ca/CivilAviation/publications/tp14371/FAL/2-0.htm
>
> What date did that go into effect?
> Not including Lake Eric and Lake St Claire, I cross maybe five miles of
> Canadian soil.

This has always been in effect, even before 9/11. Technically, the
border begins somewhere near the middle of Lake Erie, not when you
cross the shoreline.

[Chris]

"Andrew Sarangan" > wrote in message
ps.com...
>
> john smith wrote:
>> In article >,
>> "Happy Dog" > wrote:
>>
>> > http://www.tc.gc.ca/CivilAviation/publications/tp14371/FAL/2-0.htm
>>
>> What date did that go into effect?
>> Not including Lake Eric and Lake St Claire, I cross maybe five miles of
>> Canadian soil.
>
> This has always been in effect, even before 9/11. Technically, the
> border begins somewhere near the middle of Lake Erie, not when you
> cross the shoreline.

The border is shown clear on the charts, that's if you use them of course.

[James Robinson]

"Happy Dog" > wrote:

> "Private aircraft overflying or landing in Canada for non-commercial
> purposes need not obtain prior permission; however, a flight plan must
> be filed."

How are you supposed to handle it if you are vectored over Canada by ATC,
since US ATC controls some Canadian airspace? You might not be expecting
to fly over Canada, and therefore wouldn't necessarily have needed to file
a flight plan.

[Peter Duniho]

"James Robinson" > wrote in message
. 97.142...
> How are you supposed to handle it if you are vectored over Canada by ATC

You tell ATC "unable".

[Happy Dog]

"James Robinson" > wrote in message
. 97.142...
> "Happy Dog" > wrote:
>
>> "Private aircraft overflying or landing in Canada for non-commercial
>> purposes need not obtain prior permission; however, a flight plan must
>> be filed."
>
> How are you supposed to handle it if you are vectored over Canada by ATC,
> since US ATC controls some Canadian airspace? You might not be expecting
> to fly over Canada, and therefore wouldn't necessarily have needed to file
> a flight plan.

Unlikely to happen. As another poster said, reply "unable". If you pooch
this you're dealing with people who will be unhelpful. When flying across
the US/Canada border, you often don't talk to ATC in the destination country
until you're well past the border. This made me very uncomfortable after
9/11 because the rules state that you must be incontact with destination ATC
before crossing the border. The response (including conversations with ATC
pals) is that you are in contact because *they* are in contact with each
other and this is how they handle most flights. Fair enough. I doubt that
anyone will get busted over this. But if anyone does, it won't be ATC.

moo

[Denny]

I have flown across Canada for decades without talking to ATC or
filing a flight plan... I have stopped doing that since 9/11 - period!

It doesn't matter whether you are just crossing over the Windsor VOR
for a few miles, or flying hundreds of miles into Canada.. It is a
violation of International Law to do so without a flight plan, and I
can guarantee you that the Homeland Security folks will be more than
happy to 'fold, spindle, and mutilate', and then go get their pats on
the back for "protecting" the country...

Now, avoiding that is stone simple... File a flight plan... OTOH, if
you forget and realize you are going to enter Canadian airspace (or
exit) simply call ATC and ask for Flight Following... That generates a
squawk code, you are in contact with ATC, and while it doesn't meet the
letter of the law, it demonstrates that you are a team player, not a
terrorist...

denny

[Morgans]

"Denny" > wrote

> It doesn't matter whether you are just crossing over the Windsor VOR
> for a few miles, or flying hundreds of miles into Canada.. It is a
> violation of International Law to do so without a flight plan, and I
> can guarantee you that the Homeland Security folks will be more than
> happy to 'fold, spindle, and mutilate', and then go get their pats on
> the back for "protecting" the country...

I would be willing to bet that there are many GA flights that nip the corner
of Canadian airspace quite regularly, and that Canadian ATC is more than
willing to "not notice" it happening.

Can you imagine how much extra work that would be for them, for flights only
in their airspace for a couple minutes, each?

Cops never stop pulling people over, when their shift is almost over,
either. Right.

They also stop speeders when they are just 1 MPH over the speed limit,
because after all, they are speeding. Yeah, right. Not.

I could be wrong. In that case, "never mind." <g>
--
Jim in NC

[Grumman-581]

"Morgans" > wrote in message
...
> They also stop speeders when they are just 1 MPH over the speed limit,
> because after all, they are speeding. Yeah, right. Not.

Depends upon how greedy they are... In some of the small town speed traps,
they did exactly that... I can remember a certain little town that if you
were going 1 mph over the speed limit on a motorcycle, you were pretty much
guaranteed a ticket... Motorcycles had a bad rep back then and the cops
hated us...

[Marty Shapiro]

"Grumman-581" > wrote in
:

> "Morgans" > wrote in message
> ...
>> They also stop speeders when they are just 1 MPH over the speed
>> limit, because after all, they are speeding. Yeah, right. Not.
>
> Depends upon how greedy they are... In some of the small town speed
> traps, they did exactly that... I can remember a certain little town
> that if you were going 1 mph over the speed limit on a motorcycle, you
> were pretty much guaranteed a ticket... Motorcycles had a bad rep back
> then and the cops hated us...
>
>
>

Look up Ludowici, Georgia in Wikipedea. They went beyond the simple
speed trap of a sudden drop in the limit with an obsured sign to outright
fraud on out-of-state vehicles. They had a trick stop light which would
flash from green to yellow to red in a fraction of second, controlled by
the cops.

At one time, the AAA trip-tiks would route motorists on a 30 miles
cicuitous route to avoid US 301 through this town.

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ludowici%2C_GA

"The town gained notoriety during the 1950's and 1960's for it's aggressive
traffic enforcement policies. The AAA motoring organization went so far as
to specifically label Ludowici as a speed trap. Allegedly, members of the
local police force were engaging in manipulation of the timing of the
traffic signal downtown so as to catch unsuspecting out-of-area motorists
'running' a suddenly changed red light. This activity subsequently came to
an end when then-Governor Lester Maddox stated that the practices of the
Ludowici police were giving the entire state a bad reputation.

The Governor went so far as to put billboards on the outskirts of town
along US 301 warning motorists to slow down and that he was trying to
resolve the problem. Ultimately, traffic enforcement authority was stripped
from the local police and handed over to the Georgia Highway Patrol. The
signal that was responsible for the ticket trap now hangs in Doris and
Zip's bait and tackle shop in town."




















































































































--
Marty Shapiro
Silicon Rallye Inc.

(remove SPAMNOT to email me)

[David Lesher]

writes:


>(4) Notwithstanding anything in this Division, no pilot-in-command
>shall, unless a flight plan has been filed, operate an aircraft between
>Canada and a foreign state.


Point out you didn't...you operated an aircraft between a foreign state and
Canada.

--
A host is a host from coast to
& no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX
Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433

[Ron Rosenfeld]

On Sun, 02 Apr 2006 21:45:45 GMT, john smith > wrote:

>In article >,
> "Happy Dog" > wrote:
>
>> http://www.tc.gc.ca/CivilAviation/publications/tp14371/FAL/2-0.htm
>
>What date did that go into effect?
>Not including Lake Eric and Lake St Claire, I cross maybe five miles of
>Canadian soil.

It was in effect in the early 1980's.
Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)