HpH 304CZ as first sailplane

[fcnorton]

I'm SERIOUSLY thinking about buying a HpH 304C/CZ as my first
sailplane. Am I nuts?

I'm a 1000+ hour power pilot that's been flying off and on for almost
30 years. My last plane was a Mooney 251 in 1992. I have NO time in
single seat sailplanes because I'm trying to fast track my add on
license and have spent all my time in a 2-33 getting ready for the
check ride.

The point is I'm hooked on soaring so its not a casual decision. I
flew paragliders for over three years and love going XC...this is one
of the major reasons I want a high performance sailplane.

The reality is that the other sailplanes that meet my criteria are less
money but not THAT much less, especially if this is a plane that I will
not "outgrow" in several years (if ever). I live in Southern
California so I can fly pretty much year round. The ship seems to fit
the bill...I need something that I can store in a GOOD trailer and is
truly a one man assembly. I also need something with a reasonably
sized cockpit, I'm 6'1" and 205#.

ASSUMING that I get some dual time in a glass sailplane prior to
transitioning into the ship is this "too big of a step" for my first
sailplane? There is a 304CZ owner at the club I fly at and he SWEARS
that the 304 is not "over my head". BTW he is NOT trying to sell me
his plane. He transitioned into his 304CZ from a 1-36 and can't say
enough good things about it. I've read everything I can find on the
plane...mainly from the Wheels and Wings site as well as the Yahoo
Users Group and find only good things.

I'd appreciate the OBJECTIVE opinions of those who have "been there and
done that". I'm new to the forum and have learned alot from reading
the posts.

Thanks!

[Udo Rumpf]

Go for it.
You should soloed after 10-12 flights.
Have the license after 25-30 flights
and be checked out in a Twin Grob after an other five flights.
At that point I had my glider waiting for me to catch up with my transition.
After that you will use your own judgement and comfort zone regarding how
fast you will advance.
Udo


"fcnorton" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> I'm SERIOUSLY thinking about buying a HpH 304C/CZ as my first
> sailplane. Am I nuts?
>
> I'm a 1000+ hour power pilot that's been flying off and on for almost
> 30 years. My last plane was a Mooney 251 in 1992. I have NO time in
> single seat sailplanes because I'm trying to fast track my add on
> license and have spent all my time in a 2-33 getting ready for the
> check ride.
>
> The point is I'm hooked on soaring so its not a casual decision. I
> flew paragliders for over three years and love going XC...this is one
> of the major reasons I want a high performance sailplane.
>
> The reality is that the other sailplanes that meet my criteria are less
> money but not THAT much less, especially if this is a plane that I will
> not "outgrow" in several years (if ever). I live in Southern
> California so I can fly pretty much year round. The ship seems to fit
> the bill...I need something that I can store in a GOOD trailer and is
> truly a one man assembly. I also need something with a reasonably
> sized cockpit, I'm 6'1" and 205#.
>
> ASSUMING that I get some dual time in a glass sailplane prior to
> transitioning into the ship is this "too big of a step" for my first
> sailplane? There is a 304CZ owner at the club I fly at and he SWEARS
> that the 304 is not "over my head". BTW he is NOT trying to sell me
> his plane. He transitioned into his 304CZ from a 1-36 and can't say
> enough good things about it. I've read everything I can find on the
> plane...mainly from the Wheels and Wings site as well as the Yahoo
> Users Group and find only good things.
>
> I'd appreciate the OBJECTIVE opinions of those who have "been there and
> done that". I'm new to the forum and have learned alot from reading
> the posts.
>
> Thanks!
>

[[email protected]]

I bought a 304CZ as my first sailplane, 4 months after I got my
license, flying only fleet aircraft at the commercial gliderport in
between (mostly 1-26s and 1-35s). A lot of thinking and research went
into that purchase and even though I no longer fly a 304CZ, I still
believe it was the perfect first sailplane. It assembles easily (though
mine required pin polishing first), handles wonderfully, and the
trailing-edge dive brakes made landing in tight places deceptively
easy.

I have no stake in your buying one (I upgraded to a Ventus 2C recently
after putting ~300 hours in the 304CZ) -- but it is a great glider for
the money and I highly recommend it as a first glass ship. You're not
nuts at all.

-ted/2NO

[Raphael Warshaw]

Not exactly responsive to your question, but don't go directly from the 2-33
to glass with flaps and retracts. There are a number of operations around
the country with glass two-seaters with retractable gear and spending 15-20
hours with an instructor in one of these will make the transition both
easier and safer. Dual cross-country is a marvelous learning technique. On
our coast, Caracole, Williams and others have Duo Discii, Great Western a
DG505, and Warner Springs a Stemme, no less. I think the west coast DG
dealer has a DG-1000. Estrella has Grobs and an MDM Fox.

Time spent in these aircraft with really good instructors will also give you
a better framework for choosing a glider. I loved the first single seat
glider I flew, but I wouldn't be happy with it now.

Adequate time spent with a good instructor in one of these ships will, IMHO,
make the transition both safer and more satisfying. Let the instructor
inform the decision as to when you're ready to go it alone. Also, don't
rule out a good used aircraft as your first ship. As long as you spring for
a thorough prebuy inspection by a sailplane savvy A&P, they provide a lot
for the money and tend to maintain their value. Marty Eiler at Caracole
does prebuy inspections using a multipage checklist that's worth every
penny. Robert Mudd in Moriarity, NM provides a similar service. I'm sure
there are others. A good reason for having the prebuy done by an A&P is
that he/she can provide an estimate of the cost of needed (or just wanted)
repairs as part of the process.

Ray Warshaw
1LK

[Udo Rumpf]

Ray,
the man is a Money driver I would say that ship has a complexity factor
much higher then a 304.
Beside not every one needs that level of training.
Now I do recommend dual cross country exposure before one starts racing as
this cuts the learning curve dramatically.
Contact Karl Striedieck and make an appointment now here you can learn
something real quick.
Udo

> Not exactly responsive to your question, but don't go directly from the
> 2-33 to glass with flaps and retracts. There are a number of operations
> around the country with glass two-seaters with retractable gear and
> spending 15-20 hours with an instructor in one of these will make the
> transition both easier and safer. Dual cross-country is a marvelous
> learning technique. On our coast, Caracole, Williams and others have Duo
> Discii, Great Western a DG505, and Warner Springs a Stemme, no less. I
> think the west coast DG dealer has a DG-1000. Estrella has Grobs and an
> MDM Fox.
>
> Time spent in these aircraft with really good instructors will also give
> you a better framework for choosing a glider. I loved the first single
> seat glider I flew, but I wouldn't be happy with it now.
>
> Adequate time spent with a good instructor in one of these ships will,
> IMHO, make the transition both safer and more satisfying. Let the
> instructor inform the decision as to when you're ready to go it alone.
> Also, don't rule out a good used aircraft as your first ship. As long as
> you spring for a thorough prebuy inspection by a sailplane savvy A&P, they
> provide a lot for the money and tend to maintain their value. Marty Eiler
> at Caracole does prebuy inspections using a multipage checklist that's
> worth every penny. Robert Mudd in Moriarity, NM provides a similar
> service. I'm sure there are others. A good reason for having the prebuy
> done by an A&P is that he/she can provide an estimate of the cost of
> needed (or just wanted) repairs as part of the process.
>
> Ray Warshaw
> 1LK
>
>
>

[Raphael Warshaw]

Udo,

Not sure who you're referring to or just what a "Money driver" is.

I came up with the 15 hours WAG because it would allow enough time in our
conditions for two or three cross-countries and some pattern work. Compared
to the cost of ownership, particularly of a new sailplane, the cost of
flying dual with an instructor would not be all that much greater.

In the area that our questioner plans to fly, strong conditions and limited
landout choices suggest the utility of the dual approach. I've flown with
Karl (in a Blanik) and agree that it's a spectacular learning experience,
but, IMHO more useful with some cross-country experience already in hand. I
suspect that KS would agree. Flying in the Seniors with KS, Tom Knauff or
DJ would accomplish much the same.

Ray Warshaw
1LK

"Udo Rumpf" > wrote in message
.. .
> Ray,
> the man is a Money driver I would say that ship has a complexity factor
> much higher then a 304.
> Beside not every one needs that level of training.
> Now I do recommend dual cross country exposure before one starts racing as
> this cuts the learning curve dramatically.
> Contact Karl Striedieck and make an appointment now here you can learn
> something real quick.
> Udo
>
>> Not exactly responsive to your question, but don't go directly from the
>> 2-33 to glass with flaps and retracts. There are a number of operations
>> around the country with glass two-seaters with retractable gear and
>> spending 15-20 hours with an instructor in one of these will make the
>> transition both easier and safer. Dual cross-country is a marvelous
>> learning technique. On our coast, Caracole, Williams and others have Duo
>> Discii, Great Western a DG505, and Warner Springs a Stemme, no less. I
>> think the west coast DG dealer has a DG-1000. Estrella has Grobs and an
>> MDM Fox.
>>
>> Time spent in these aircraft with really good instructors will also give
>> you a better framework for choosing a glider. I loved the first single
>> seat glider I flew, but I wouldn't be happy with it now.
>>
>> Adequate time spent with a good instructor in one of these ships will,
>> IMHO, make the transition both safer and more satisfying. Let the
>> instructor inform the decision as to when you're ready to go it alone.
>> Also, don't rule out a good used aircraft as your first ship. As long
>> as you spring for a thorough prebuy inspection by a sailplane savvy A&P,
>> they provide a lot for the money and tend to maintain their value. Marty
>> Eiler at Caracole does prebuy inspections using a multipage checklist
>> that's worth every penny. Robert Mudd in Moriarity, NM provides a
>> similar service. I'm sure there are others. A good reason for having
>> the prebuy done by an A&P is that he/she can provide an estimate of the
>> cost of needed (or just wanted) repairs as part of the process.
>>
>> Ray Warshaw
>> 1LK
>>
>>
>>
>

[nothanks]

fcnorton > wrote:
> I'm SERIOUSLY thinking about buying a HpH 304C/CZ as my first
> sailplane. Am I nuts?

No... It's a reasonable choice.

> I'm a 1000+ hour power pilot that's been flying off and on for almost
> 30 years. My last plane was a Mooney 251 in 1992. I have NO time in
> single seat sailplanes because I'm trying to fast track my add on
> license and have spent all my time in a 2-33 getting ready for the
> check ride.

Sounds good.

> The reality is that the other sailplanes that meet my criteria are less
> money but not THAT much less, especially if this is a plane that I will
> not "outgrow" in several years (if ever). I live in Southern
> California so I can fly pretty much year round. The ship seems to fit
> the bill...I need something that I can store in a GOOD trailer and is
> truly a one man assembly. I also need something with a reasonably
> sized cockpit, I'm 6'1" and 205#.

> ASSUMING that I get some dual time in a glass sailplane prior to
> transitioning into the ship is this "too big of a step" for my first
> sailplane? There is a 304CZ owner at the club I fly at and he SWEARS

2-33 training is plain and simple inadequate preparation for any
Glasflugel or most glass ships. That said, if you get some additional
dual training in an apropriate aircraft, I think a 304 is a very
reasonable first ship. As a 301 pilot, I can tell you Glasflugel
really was ahead of its time, the 304 is a slick ship. Bear in mind I
said an "appropriate aircraft" however, and I don't think a Grob
qualifies. The Grob is lumbering, and heavy on the controls
comparatively. It basically flies like a 2-33 but with higher
performance and less slop in the controls (I'm sure that statement will
get this thread really moving along nicely). If you can go with a Janus,
Duo Discus, ASK-21, ASK-7, or ASK-13, my guess is they are all better
than a Grob.

good luck!

[Greg Arnold]

Raphael Warshaw wrote:
> Udo,
>
> Not sure who you're referring to or just what a "Money driver" is.
>
> I came up with the 15 hours WAG because it would allow enough time in our
> conditions for two or three cross-countries and some pattern work. Compared
> to the cost of ownership, particularly of a new sailplane, the cost of
> flying dual with an instructor would not be all that much greater.
>
> In the area that our questioner plans to fly, strong conditions and limited
> landout choices suggest the utility of the dual approach. I've flown with
> Karl (in a Blanik) and agree that it's a spectacular learning experience,
> but, IMHO more useful with some cross-country experience already in hand. I
> suspect that KS would agree. Flying in the Seniors with KS, Tom Knauff or
> DJ would accomplish much the same.
>
> Ray Warshaw
> 1LK


I flew 2 flights with KS at the Parowan Nationals last summer. Maybe it
was just me, but watching him was not a good learning experience. It is
like watching the cam over the driver's shoulder at the Indianapolis 500
-- that won't help you at all if you try to drive one of those cars.
For me, at least, I would need to be the one flying, with someone in the
back seat telling me what I was doing wrong. Not to say that it wasn't
a great experience -- it was, but just not one that would help me with
my flying.

I transitioned to an LS-3 after 30 Blanik hours (no other flying
experience), and in preparation took some dual time in the only "high
performance" glider that was available (a 2-place Lark). It retrospect,
it would have been good to have some time in a glider like a Duo Discus.
So I think Ray is on the right track here.

[[email protected]]

I agree that the Grob is the least "304-like" of the aircraft I
mentioned, but it will accelerate quickly enough to make the important
points about spiral dives, redlline speed and recovery, even with the
spoilers out, and will float well enough to emphasize the issues of
speed control on landing. I agree that a Duo, K-21 or DG-1000 would be
better for the purpose, but these are less available in the local
rental/instructional fleets.

Ray Warshaw

[Udo Rumpf]

> I flew 2 flights with KS at the Parowan Nationals last summer. Maybe it
> was just me, but watching him was not a good learning experience. It is
> like watching the cam over the driver's shoulder at the Indianapolis 500
> -- that won't help you at all if you try to drive one of those cars.
> For me, at least, I would need to be the one flying, with someone in the
> back seat telling me what I was doing wrong. Not to say that it wasn't
> a great experience -- it was, but just not one that would help me with
> my flying.
>

[Udo Rumpf]

> I flew 2 flights with KS at the Parowan Nationals last summer. Maybe it
> was just me, but watching him was not a good learning experience. It is
> like watching the cam over the driver's shoulder at the Indianapolis
> 500 -- that won't help you at all if you try to drive one of those cars.
> For me, at least, I would need to be the one flying, with someone in the
> back seat telling me what I was doing wrong. Not to say that it wasn't a
> great experience -- it was, but just not one that would help me with my
> flying.

That is an interesting observation.
I was thinking of taking a few contest rides with him.
In my case I would be happy just to watch and analyse his action, as I would
be interested in pushing my average up.
Karl may not be the ideal candidate for me, in terms of his approach to
contest flying maybe Doug Jacobs would be the better temperament for me. On
the other hand my learning curve is still going up but flatter then I would
like. And the challenge to learn on ones own is rewarding too.
Udo

[Wayne Paul]

"Raphael Warshaw" > wrote in message
...
> Udo,
>
> Not sure who you're referring to or just what a "Money driver" is.

Ray,

Udo was referring to the original poster, FC Norton, who started this
thread.

In Mr. Norton's post he stated:
"I'm a 1000+ hour power pilot that's been flying off and on for almost
30 years. My last plane was a Mooney 251 in 1992. I have NO time in
single seat sailplanes because I'm trying to fast track my add on
license and have spent all my time in a 2-33 getting ready for the
check ride."

Did you not read the post, or are you making an attempt at humor due to the
"Mooney/Money" typographical error?

Respectfully,
Wayne

[Raphael Warshaw]

Greg:

I agree that doing the flying is usually better (and certainly more fun),
but there's a lot to be learned from watching. I occasionally fly with an
instructor who's more comfortable close to the rocks than I am and learn
quite a bit from watching him figure the winds, speeds and escape routes,
more than I would with my <very> sweaty hand on the stick. I learned
braking points and cornering lines for auto racing in much the same way, by
sitting next to a competitive driver (in a sports prototype with a second
seat but no belts or roll-bar; we get smarter if we live long enough).

Ray Warshaw
1LK


"Greg Arnold" > wrote in message
news:4aBWf.972$I%6.187@fed1read12...
> Raphael Warshaw wrote:

[Greg Arnold]

Raphael Warshaw wrote:
> Greg:
>
> I agree that doing the flying is usually better (and certainly more fun),
> but there's a lot to be learned from watching. I occasionally fly with an
> instructor who's more comfortable close to the rocks than I am and learn
> quite a bit from watching him figure the winds, speeds and escape routes,
> more than I would with my <very> sweaty hand on the stick. I learned
> braking points and cornering lines for auto racing in much the same way, by
> sitting next to a competitive driver (in a sports prototype with a second
> seat but no belts or roll-bar; we get smarter if we live long enough).
>
> Ray Warshaw
> 1LK

It probably depends a lot on the person. I have always had trouble
learning anything without actually doing it myself.

[[email protected]]

Wayne:

Actually neither; I'd never heard the expression "Money Driver" and
wouldn't have figured it out without your help.

Thanks,

Ray Warshaw
1LK

[303SAM]

How very Montessori of them!

> wrote in message
oups.com...
> The army wisdom is (or at least used to be) "See one, do one, teach
> one". Interesting concept although it's important to consider the
> army's opinion on expendablility.
>
> Ray Warshaw
>

[303SAM]

I don't understand "redlline speed and recovery, even with the spoilers
out". The 303 has terminal speed limiting brakes, doesn't the 304?
My 303 doesn't quite make it to manuevering speed with the brakes out and
the nose pointed at the ground. The POH mentions a 2G deceleration if you
pull it all out at redline. Have no intentions of trying that one on my 29
year old lady.

> wrote in message
oups.com...
> I agree that the Grob is the least "304-like" of the aircraft I
> mentioned, but it will accelerate quickly enough to make the important
> points about spiral dives, redlline speed and recovery, even with the
> spoilers out, and will float well enough to emphasize the issues of
> speed control on landing. I agree that a Duo, K-21 or DG-1000 would be
> better for the purpose, but these are less available in the local
> rental/instructional fleets.
>
> Ray Warshaw
>

[Robert Hart]

fcnorton wrote:
> I'm SERIOUSLY thinking about buying a HpH 304C/CZ as my first
> sailplane. Am I nuts?
>
> I'm a 1000+ hour power pilot that's been flying off and on for almost
> 30 years. My last plane was a Mooney 251 in 1992. I have NO time in
> single seat sailplanes because I'm trying to fast track my add on
> license and have spent all my time in a 2-33 getting ready for the
> check ride.

The training system is the US is rather different to the one we operate
here in Australia, so I can't really comment on that side of things.

However, I would strongly urge you to spend some additional time with a
cross country gliding instructor once you have your licence. There are a
couple of critical things that will significantly improve your enjoyment
and safety. It's possible that these are covered to some extent in your
training, though.

First of all, some time with a cross country soaring instructor will
give you more insight into and skills in soaring. This will mean you are
more likely to stay airborne (particularly when the conditions become
marginal) and will have a good skill set as a base from which to build.

Second, out landing training is crucial - paddock selection training and
actually doing an out landing make a huge difference to confidence
levels when trying to cut the 'apron strings' and depart the home airfield.

All the best with whatever aircraft you select - you're getting involved
in the second best thing in life!

Robert

[Raphael Warshaw]

I wasn't aware that the brakes on the 304 would limit speed to below redline
in a vertical dive. If true, the ship goes way up in my estimate of
suitability for a new-to-glass pilot. The manual on my LAK-17 says that the
brakes can be fully extended at redline but to "expect high aerodynamic
forces". I haven't tried it either.

Ray Warshaw
1LK


"303SAM" > wrote in message
...
>I don't understand "redlline speed and recovery, even with the spoilers
> out". The 303 has terminal speed limiting brakes, doesn't the 304?
> My 303 doesn't quite make it to manuevering speed with the brakes out and
> the nose pointed at the ground. The POH mentions a 2G deceleration if you
> pull it all out at redline. Have no intentions of trying that one on my
> 29
> year old lady.
>
> > wrote in message
> oups.com...
>> I agree that the Grob is the least "304-like" of the aircraft I
>> mentioned, but it will accelerate quickly enough to make the important
>> points about spiral dives, redlline speed and recovery, even with the
>> spoilers out, and will float well enough to emphasize the issues of
>> speed control on landing. I agree that a Duo, K-21 or DG-1000 would be
>> better for the purpose, but these are less available in the local
>> rental/instructional fleets.
>>
>> Ray Warshaw
>>
>
>

[Shawn]

wrote:
> The army wisdom is (or at least used to be) "See one, do one, teach
> one". Interesting concept although it's important to consider the
> army's opinion on expendablility.

My wife says her medical training was the same. Think about that when
your doctor says lose weight and get more exercise or you'll be needing
bypass surgery in 10 years!

Shawn

[Raphael Warshaw]

Are you referring to the accuracy of the prediction or commenting on the
skills of the prospective cardiac surgeon?

Ray Warshaw

"Shawn" <sdotherecurry@bresnannextdotnet> wrote in message
...
> wrote:
>> The army wisdom is (or at least used to be) "See one, do one, teach
>> one". Interesting concept although it's important to consider the
>> army's opinion on expendablility.
>
> My wife says her medical training was the same. Think about that when
> your doctor says lose weight and get more exercise or you'll be needing
> bypass surgery in 10 years!
>
> Shawn

[Shawn]

Which would you worry more about?

Raphael Warshaw wrote:
> Are you referring to the accuracy of the prediction or commenting on the
> skills of the prospective cardiac surgeon?
>
> Ray Warshaw
>
> "Shawn" <sdotherecurry@bresnannextdotnet> wrote in message
> ...
>
wrote:
>>
>>>The army wisdom is (or at least used to be) "See one, do one, teach
>>>one". Interesting concept although it's important to consider the
>>>army's opinion on expendablility.
>>
>>My wife says her medical training was the same. Think about that when
>>your doctor says lose weight and get more exercise or you'll be needing
>>bypass surgery in 10 years!
>>
>>Shawn
>
>
>

[[email protected]]

Without a doubt, the surgeon. Predictions by wives are always too
gloomy. I'll bet having a physician wife makes it especially hard to
think of snappy comebacks, though.

Ray Warshaw

[fcnorton]

WOW! I never expected such a great response!.

I sincerely appreciate the thoughtful and thought provoking comments.
You have all given me lots of food for thought.

Obviously the issue of proper training and preparation is number one.
In my mind this is a given. I posed the question because I have an
oppportunity to purchase a 304CZ that is in my neighborhood and comes
from a highly recommended source. I know that I may have to sit on it
for a while until I get up to speed in the category, but after reading
all the reponses it honestly doesn't seem like it's something that is
"out of my league", again given the proper instruction. I will
DEFINATELY do the dual cross country training that has been
recommended. This is a great idea and something I had planned to do
regardless of what aircraft I selected.

Thanks to all you who took the time to reply. I will follow up on this
post once I make a decision!

Frank

[fcnorton]

WOW! I never expected such a great response!.

I sincerely appreciate the thoughtful and thought provoking comments.
You have all given me lots of food for thought.

Obviously the issue of proper training and preparation is number one.
In my mind this is a given. I posed the question because I have an
oppportunity to purchase a 304CZ that is in my neighborhood and comes
from a highly recommended source. I know that I may have to sit on it
for a while until I get up to speed in the category, but after reading
all the reponses it honestly doesn't seem like it's something that is
"out of my league", again given the proper instruction. I will
DEFINATELY do the dual cross country training that has been
recommended. This is a great idea and something I had planned to do
regardless of what aircraft I selected.

Thanks to all you who took the time to reply. I will follow up on this
post once I make a decision!

Frank

[303SAM]

Yes, this is one of the cool things about older ships--I understand it used
to be a requirement of the class.
Again, I don't know about the 304, only the 303.

"Raphael Warshaw" > wrote in message
...
> I wasn't aware that the brakes on the 304 would limit speed to below
redline
> in a vertical dive. If true, the ship goes way up in my estimate of
> suitability for a new-to-glass pilot. The manual on my LAK-17 says that
the
> brakes can be fully extended at redline but to "expect high aerodynamic
> forces". I haven't tried it either.
>
> Ray Warshaw
> 1LK
>
>
> "303SAM" > wrote in message
> ...
> >I don't understand "redlline speed and recovery, even with the spoilers
> > out". The 303 has terminal speed limiting brakes, doesn't the 304?
> > My 303 doesn't quite make it to manuevering speed with the brakes out
and
> > the nose pointed at the ground. The POH mentions a 2G deceleration if
you
> > pull it all out at redline. Have no intentions of trying that one on my
> > 29
> > year old lady.
> >
> > > wrote in message
> > oups.com...
> >> I agree that the Grob is the least "304-like" of the aircraft I
> >> mentioned, but it will accelerate quickly enough to make the important
> >> points about spiral dives, redlline speed and recovery, even with the
> >> spoilers out, and will float well enough to emphasize the issues of
> >> speed control on landing. I agree that a Duo, K-21 or DG-1000 would be
> >> better for the purpose, but these are less available in the local
> >> rental/instructional fleets.
> >>
> >> Ray Warshaw
> >>
> >
> >
>
>

[Charles Yeates]

Just an aside re Parowan and KS. At the end of one day, Karl came over
as we were tying down our PW-6 and commented that in two thermals when
we were together, he could never climb his Duo up to us -- surprise.

Udo Rumpf wrote:

>> I flew 2 flights with KS at the Parowan Nationals last summer. Maybe
>> it was just me, but watching him was not a good learning experience.
>> It is like watching the cam over the driver's shoulder at the
>> Indianapolis 500 -- that won't help you at all if you try to drive
>> one of those cars. For me, at least, I would need to be the one
>> flying, with someone in the back seat telling me what I was doing
>> wrong. Not to say that it wasn't a great experience -- it was, but
>> just not one that would help me with my flying.
>
>
> That is an interesting observation.
> I was thinking of taking a few contest rides with him.
> In my case I would be happy just to watch and analyse his action, as I
> would be interested in pushing my average up.
> Karl may not be the ideal candidate for me, in terms of his approach to
> contest flying maybe Doug Jacobs would be the better temperament for
> me. On the other hand my learning curve is still going up but flatter
> then I would like. And the challenge to learn on ones own is rewarding
> too.
> Udo


--
Charles Yeates
ZS Jezow Agent - PW-6/PW-5

CMYeates & Associates
105 Dunbrack St, Apt 110
Halifax, NS, Canada, B3M 3G7
tel/fax 902.443.0094

Web site http://www3.ns.sympatico.ca/yeatesc/world.html

[Mike the Strike]

The 304CZ has a performance pretty close to the ASW 20 with somewhat
more benign handling, safer cockpit and being newly built comes with
modern instruments and a trailer.

As 2NO points out, you won't be quite as competitive at the higher wing
loadings, but I wouldn't let that put you off. It's a very capable
cross-country ship (check out 2NO's just-under-1000km flight last year)
and has a strong following in the USA. It's one of the few non-German
gliders that sells well and keeps its value.

Also gliders available in your area are worth many thousands more than
those across the country - trust me on this!

Mike

[no]

303SAM > wrote:
> Yes, this is one of the cool things about older ships--I understand it used
> to be a requirement of the class.
> Again, I don't know about the 304, only the 303.

It was my understanding that it was a requirement that the airbrakes limit
speed to less than Vne even at extreme dive angles. However, I wouldn't
count on that. I seem to remember reading something from Schweitzer
claiming that although their gliders were compliant with that, many of
their competitor's weren't. They also went on to say they thought the
requirement was unreasonable and that they felt their competitor's
performed fine within a reasonable pitch angle (45 degrees?) Point is,
don't try this at home...

dan

[[email protected]]

Nope, the 304 airbrakes are not terminal velocity limiting. If you've
flown one, you'd think so, but the HpH team says no. The manual says
to expect a 2g decelleration if you pop those bad boys at high speed.
It is correct. Make sure your stuff is stashed or it ends up by the
rudder pedals. Ok, it was a sandwich...
Bill