LONDON

[Paul Folbrecht]

Biz trip to London - leaving this weekend. Thinking of doing some
flying there. I'm an American PP-SEL-IA. Suggestions on where to go, etc.?

Thanks!

Paul

[Don Byrer]

>Biz trip to London - leaving this weekend. Thinking of doing some
>flying there. I'm an American PP-SEL-IA. Suggestions on where to go, etc.?

I presume you are talking about London England, not Ontario...

(I hate to be picky...but how about a more descriptive subject line?)

Last time I was in the UK, I flew with a CFI out of Norwich airport.
Was about $225/hour-ish for a PA28 + CFI. About 2 hrs NE of London,
a bit far for you, but you get the idea.

Plenty of places to go fly...
Once you get there, open the phone book and call a few flight schools.
FYI, London is basically a Massive "Class B" type area...you may have
to get a little ways out of town to find what you want.

If you have time, check out Duxford air museum aka Imperial War
Museum, near Cambridge. UK equivalent of Wright-Pat.


Best of luck...Don
Don Byrer
Commercial Pilot / CFI Student
Electronics Technician, RADAR/Data/Comm @ CLE
Amateur Radio KJ5KB

"I have slipped the surly bonds of earth; now if I can just land without bending the gear..."
"I know what it sounds like....when doves cry" (Bird Strike 8/29/05)

[Cub Driver]

I'm a WWII buff, and there's an airfield/museum a short Tube ride from
London that I hanker to see. http://duxford.iwm.org.uk/

My certificate isn't good outside the U.S., so I can't help you there.


-- all the best, Dan Ford

email: usenet AT danford DOT net

Warbird's Forum: www.warbirdforum.com
Piper Cub Forum: www.pipercubforum.com
In Search of Lost Time: www.readingproust.com

[john smith]

> If you have time, check out Duxford air museum aka Imperial War
> Museum, near Cambridge. UK equivalent of Wright-Pat.

.... and the Shuttleworth(?) collection.

[Paul Folbrecht]

Cub Driver wrote:
> I'm a WWII buff, and there's an airfield/museum a short Tube ride from
> London that I hanker to see. http://duxford.iwm.org.uk/
>
> My certificate isn't good outside the U.S., so I can't help you there.

Why is that? SP?

[Paul Folbrecht]

Don Byrer wrote:
>>Biz trip to London - leaving this weekend. Thinking of doing some
>>flying there. I'm an American PP-SEL-IA. Suggestions on where to go, etc.?
>
>
> I presume you are talking about London England, not Ontario...
>
> (I hate to be picky...but how about a more descriptive subject line?)

Well, then quit being picky.

Just kidding. :-} I figured "London, UK" would be the "default".
Thanks for the info.


>
> Last time I was in the UK, I flew with a CFI out of Norwich airport.
> Was about $225/hour-ish for a PA28 + CFI. About 2 hrs NE of London,
> a bit far for you, but you get the idea.
>
> Plenty of places to go fly...
> Once you get there, open the phone book and call a few flight schools.
> FYI, London is basically a Massive "Class B" type area...you may have
> to get a little ways out of town to find what you want.
>
> If you have time, check out Duxford air museum aka Imperial War
> Museum, near Cambridge. UK equivalent of Wright-Pat.
>
>
> Best of luck...Don
> Don Byrer
> Commercial Pilot / CFI Student
> Electronics Technician, RADAR/Data/Comm @ CLE
> Amateur Radio KJ5KB
>
> "I have slipped the surly bonds of earth; now if I can just land without bending the gear..."
> "I know what it sounds like....when doves cry" (Bird Strike 8/29/05)

[george]

john smith wrote:
> > If you have time, check out Duxford air museum aka Imperial War
> > Museum, near Cambridge. UK equivalent of Wright-Pat.
>
> ... and the Shuttleworth(?) collection.
There's a flying school (was ) based there in 1987.
Great place !

[Chris]

"Paul Folbrecht" > wrote in message
...
> Cub Driver wrote:
>> I'm a WWII buff, and there's an airfield/museum a short Tube ride from
>> London that I hanker to see. http://duxford.iwm.org.uk/
>>
>> My certificate isn't good outside the U.S., so I can't help you there.
>
> Why is that? SP?

Lets clear up a few misunderstandings.

1. The airspace around London (Heathrow) is Class A from the surface to
heaven and so its a no go area.

2. A FAA certificate is good to go in the UK. There is no conversion
required, no exam to take and no inspector to see. Bring the medical and the
logbook too. All you need to fly is someone prepared to let you have his
pride and joy.

3. Renting a plane will require a checkride from a school and this may take
some time just to get familiar with both the R/T and the airspace limits.

4. Airports in class D airspace are treated as though they are in US class
B. There is no Class E and class C.

5. A FAA IR is of no use in a UK registered aircraft. Its considered to be
as worthwhile as toilet paper. It can be used in a N reg though as though
you are in the US. But N regs cannot be rented out as a general rule. That
means borrowing a privately owned plane. An FAA Commercial certificate is
worth the same as a private. Take a cent using it and it's jail time.
Special permission is required and its not normally given. In practice that
means Day VFR only. There is no such thing as night VFR in the UK. Its
either special VFR or IR. A specific night rating is required for night
flight.

6. Duxford Imperial war museum is a great place to go and visit and has a
superb american museum. However its not a short tube ride from London. Its
a train ride to Cambridge and an expensive taxi ride to Duxford. The best
way to get to Duxford is to fly in and I would suggest that if you want to
fly, have the checkout / accompanied trip to Duxford.

7. If you do get to fly be prepared for landing fees and for gas at $7 a
gallon.

8. Google the following airfields
White Waltham, Denham,Elstree,Stapleford, Biggin Hill, Fairoaks. These are
airfield that surround London starting from the Western edge of the Class A
going clockwise to the southern edge.

Otherwise go here if you want to look further afield. This will give you
some indicative costs. (it will make you cry).
http://www.flyer.co.uk/directory/

9. Any violations are strictly dealt with. The CAA prosecutes in court you
get fined, and get to pay their costs as well as your own. They might also
seek to have your ticket pulled. There is no such thing as administrative
action. Foul up and its a criminal matter.

10. R/T procedure is very strict. The likelihood for being permitted to
enter controlled airspace is all down to the first call. Sound as though you
know what you are doing, then you might be OK. Otherwise be prepared for
that magical phrase "remain clear of controlled airspace". An alternative
plan is always required.

11. Around London all aircraft are operating between 1500ft MSL and 2500ft
MSL (the lower limit of the class A shelf). Its gets a bit unnerving
especially on a nice day when everyone seems to be flying.

12. There is no such thing as a Unicom frequency and there is no common air
to air frequency. Radio contact is with whoever you want, or no one. Just
keep a good look out.

13. For some of the best views of the London skyline, its hard to beat for
some of the English scenery its also hard to beat.

14. Fly with someone else and share the look out duties and enjoy the view.

15. Around London all airfield tend to have unique traffic patterns either
to remain outside the class A or avoiding irritating the neighbours. At my
airfield, Elstree, the downwid leg is flown about three miles from the
runway, and the start of the final approach is four miles from the
threshold. Its a big pattern. http://www.egtr.net/byair.php
(They also have a training pattern, which changes during the day and that
leaves a two mile final).

Chris

[Paul Folbrecht]

I'm f---ing happy I don't live in the UK.

Chris wrote:
> "Paul Folbrecht" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>Cub Driver wrote:
>>
>>>I'm a WWII buff, and there's an airfield/museum a short Tube ride from
>>>London that I hanker to see. http://duxford.iwm.org.uk/
>>>
>>>My certificate isn't good outside the U.S., so I can't help you there.
>>
>>Why is that? SP?
>
>
> Lets clear up a few misunderstandings.
>
> 1. The airspace around London (Heathrow) is Class A from the surface to
> heaven and so its a no go area.
>
> 2. A FAA certificate is good to go in the UK. There is no conversion
> required, no exam to take and no inspector to see. Bring the medical and the
> logbook too. All you need to fly is someone prepared to let you have his
> pride and joy.
>
> 3. Renting a plane will require a checkride from a school and this may take
> some time just to get familiar with both the R/T and the airspace limits.
>
> 4. Airports in class D airspace are treated as though they are in US class
> B. There is no Class E and class C.
>
> 5. A FAA IR is of no use in a UK registered aircraft. Its considered to be
> as worthwhile as toilet paper. It can be used in a N reg though as though
> you are in the US. But N regs cannot be rented out as a general rule. That
> means borrowing a privately owned plane. An FAA Commercial certificate is
> worth the same as a private. Take a cent using it and it's jail time.
> Special permission is required and its not normally given. In practice that
> means Day VFR only. There is no such thing as night VFR in the UK. Its
> either special VFR or IR. A specific night rating is required for night
> flight.
>
> 6. Duxford Imperial war museum is a great place to go and visit and has a
> superb american museum. However its not a short tube ride from London. Its
> a train ride to Cambridge and an expensive taxi ride to Duxford. The best
> way to get to Duxford is to fly in and I would suggest that if you want to
> fly, have the checkout / accompanied trip to Duxford.
>
> 7. If you do get to fly be prepared for landing fees and for gas at $7 a
> gallon.
>
> 8. Google the following airfields
> White Waltham, Denham,Elstree,Stapleford, Biggin Hill, Fairoaks. These are
> airfield that surround London starting from the Western edge of the Class A
> going clockwise to the southern edge.
>
> Otherwise go here if you want to look further afield. This will give you
> some indicative costs. (it will make you cry).
> http://www.flyer.co.uk/directory/
>
> 9. Any violations are strictly dealt with. The CAA prosecutes in court you
> get fined, and get to pay their costs as well as your own. They might also
> seek to have your ticket pulled. There is no such thing as administrative
> action. Foul up and its a criminal matter.
>
> 10. R/T procedure is very strict. The likelihood for being permitted to
> enter controlled airspace is all down to the first call. Sound as though you
> know what you are doing, then you might be OK. Otherwise be prepared for
> that magical phrase "remain clear of controlled airspace". An alternative
> plan is always required.
>
> 11. Around London all aircraft are operating between 1500ft MSL and 2500ft
> MSL (the lower limit of the class A shelf). Its gets a bit unnerving
> especially on a nice day when everyone seems to be flying.
>
> 12. There is no such thing as a Unicom frequency and there is no common air
> to air frequency. Radio contact is with whoever you want, or no one. Just
> keep a good look out.
>
> 13. For some of the best views of the London skyline, its hard to beat for
> some of the English scenery its also hard to beat.
>
> 14. Fly with someone else and share the look out duties and enjoy the view.
>
> 15. Around London all airfield tend to have unique traffic patterns either
> to remain outside the class A or avoiding irritating the neighbours. At my
> airfield, Elstree, the downwid leg is flown about three miles from the
> runway, and the start of the final approach is four miles from the
> threshold. Its a big pattern. http://www.egtr.net/byair.php
> (They also have a training pattern, which changes during the day and that
> leaves a two mile final).
>
> Chris
>
>

[Carl Orton]

A few years ago I flew out of Old Sarum Flying Club near Salisbury.
Allegedly the oldest airfield in England in it's original configuration.
Grass over chalk. Farnborough's older but has obviously grown with the
population.

Your US license is good to go; I only had a short time there, so rather than
get checked out for solo, I just went for an hour with an instructor, just
so I could have a UK entry in my logbook. At the time, rental costs for a
'66 172 were like $200/hr US, not counting the instructor. !!!


"Paul Folbrecht" > wrote in message
...
> Biz trip to London - leaving this weekend. Thinking of doing some flying
> there. I'm an American PP-SEL-IA. Suggestions on where to go, etc.?
>
> Thanks!
>
> Paul

[Chris]

"Paul Folbrecht" > wrote in message
...
> I'm f---ing happy I don't live in the UK.

One of the big reasons for travelling to the US to fly.

Chris

[Big John]

Carl

Wet????

Big John
`````````````````````````````````````````````````` ````````````

On Sat, 1 Apr 2006 19:01:21 -0600, "Carl Orton" >
wrote:

>A few years ago I flew out of Old Sarum Flying Club near Salisbury.
>Allegedly the oldest airfield in England in it's original configuration.
>Grass over chalk. Farnborough's older but has obviously grown with the
>population.
>
>Your US license is good to go; I only had a short time there, so rather than
>get checked out for solo, I just went for an hour with an instructor, just
>so I could have a UK entry in my logbook. At the time, rental costs for a
>'66 172 were like $200/hr US, not counting the instructor. !!!
>
>
>"Paul Folbrecht" > wrote in message
...
>> Biz trip to London - leaving this weekend. Thinking of doing some flying
>> there. I'm an American PP-SEL-IA. Suggestions on where to go, etc.?
>>
>> Thanks!
>>
>> Paul
>

[Chris]

That would be wet. A Warrior would typically set you back $250 dual wet.

This flying centre west of London is typical.
http://www.wycombeaircentre.co.uk/

And a 182RG from them is $358 / hr inclusive of taxes.
"Big John" > wrote in message
...
> Carl
>
> Wet????
>
> Big John
> `````````````````````````````````````````````````` ````````````
>
> On Sat, 1 Apr 2006 19:01:21 -0600, "Carl Orton" >
> wrote:
>
>>A few years ago I flew out of Old Sarum Flying Club near Salisbury.
>>Allegedly the oldest airfield in England in it's original configuration.
>>Grass over chalk. Farnborough's older but has obviously grown with the
>>population.
>>
>>Your US license is good to go; I only had a short time there, so rather
>>than
>>get checked out for solo, I just went for an hour with an instructor, just
>>so I could have a UK entry in my logbook. At the time, rental costs for a
>>'66 172 were like $200/hr US, not counting the instructor. !!!
>>
>>
>>"Paul Folbrecht" > wrote in message
...
>>> Biz trip to London - leaving this weekend. Thinking of doing some
>>> flying
>>> there. I'm an American PP-SEL-IA. Suggestions on where to go, etc.?
>>>
>>> Thanks!
>>>
>>> Paul
>>
>

[Dylan Smith]

On 2006-04-01, Chris > wrote:
> 3. Renting a plane will require a checkride from a school and this may take
> some time just to get familiar with both the R/T and the airspace limits.

US translation: R/T = radio work

> 4. Airports in class D airspace are treated as though they are in US class
> B. There is no Class E and class C.

On a point of pedantry - if he flies up to Scotland, he'll find Class E
airspace.

> 5. A FAA IR is of no use in a UK registered aircraft.

This is true to an extent, however you can still use it in class G
airspace - and most of the time, you'll be in class G airspace. Be sure
to use RAS (radar advisory service).

> 10. R/T procedure is very strict.

In particular, it generally follows the ICAO conventions (it isn't quite
as strict as you make out though - I find most controllers are pretty
relaxed, but then again I'm not flying around London - it may be
different down there - southerners do have a reputation of being
officious and bureaucratic :-) - in fairness, the airspace in the
vicinity of London is incredibly busy - it's pretty much like flying
around SoCal)

Differences that will stand out from the US:
- they expect you to say where you're coming *from* as well as where
you're going to.
- callsigns are abbreviated to first letter and last three letters -
i.e. G-ABCD gets abbreviated to 'golf charlie delta'
- there are services that don't exist in the US - FIS (flight
information service) and RAS (radar advisory service). RIS (radar
information service) is the equivalent of flight following.
- you will hear things that sound odd such as 'Freecall suchandsuch on
123.45' which in the US would be said as 'Radar service terminated,
squawk 1200, for further flight following I suggest call Houston
Approach on 134.45'.
- VFR squawk is 7000.
- Some airfields have 'AFIS' which is sort of like Unicom Plus. It's not
a control tower as such but the AFIS will sequence you into the
circuit and say things like 'land your discretion' (instead of cleared
to land, because they can't actually clear you to do anything).

The best thing to do is to pick up Trevor Thom's R/T book at the local
airfield - it'll tell you everything you need to know.
Also, I suspect you need an FCC radio license. I got one just to be
sure.

> 12. There is no such thing as a Unicom frequency and there is no common air
> to air frequency. Radio contact is with whoever you want, or no one. Just
> keep a good look out.

There may be no such thing, but at airfields with no A/G radio people
will use the US non-towered procedure. It might not be pedantically
'right' but people do it anyway (and it's better than following the
official procedure of not saying anything).

--
Dylan Smith, Port St Mary, Isle of Man
Flying: http://www.dylansmith.net
Oolite-Linux: an Elite tribute: http://oolite-linux.berlios.de
Frontier Elite Universe: http://www.alioth.net

[Dylan Smith]

On 2006-04-02, Paul Folbrecht > wrote:
> I'm f---ing happy I don't live in the UK.

It's not that bad if you live a couple of hundred miles from London (the
airspace is *MUCH* more open up north - at my airfield, it's class G
airspace up to FL245 - and the rental costs are significantly less
once you get away from London) but now you understand why we like taking
our vacation in the US.

--
Dylan Smith, Port St Mary, Isle of Man
Flying: http://www.dylansmith.net
Oolite-Linux: an Elite tribute: http://oolite-linux.berlios.de
Frontier Elite Universe: http://www.alioth.net

[Peter R.]

Don Byrer > wrote:

> I presume you are talking about London England, not Ontario...

What's in London, Ontario? ;)

--
Peter

[Chris]

"Peter R." > wrote in message
...
> Don Byrer > wrote:
>
>> I presume you are talking about London England, not Ontario...
>
> What's in London, Ontario? ;)
>
> --
> Peter

Canadians :(

[Chris]

> On a point of pedantry - if he flies up to Scotland, he'll find Class E
> airspace.

On a point of pedantry the OP was asking about London not Scotland or the
teeny weenie bit of Teeside or even Belfast where there is Class E.

[Don Byrer]

On Mon, 3 Apr 2006 12:27:48 -0400, "Peter R." >
wrote:

>Don Byrer > wrote:
>
>> I presume you are talking about London England, not Ontario...
>
>What's in London, Ontario? ;)

The Diamond Aircraft factory

A nice clean medium sized city with friendly people, that's safe to
walk about in at night.

Home of Labatt's beer

Planning another trip up there this summer....this time we FLY.

--Don-Cleveland, OH



Don Byrer
Commercial Pilot / CFI Student
Electronics Technician, RADAR/Data/Comm @ CLE
Amateur Radio KJ5KB

"I have slipped the surly bonds of earth; now if I can just land without bending the gear..."
"I know what it sounds like....when doves cry" (Bird Strike 8/29/05)

[Dylan Smith]

On 2006-04-03, Chris > wrote:
>
>> On a point of pedantry - if he flies up to Scotland, he'll find Class E
>> airspace.
>
> On a point of pedantry the OP was asking about London not Scotland or the
> teeny weenie bit of Teeside or even Belfast where there is Class E.

But it is entirely possible that he could fly a light plane from London
to Scotland. It's a bit misleading to tell him that there is no class E
when he could quite conceivably meet some should he decide to take a
couple of days out and fly from London to Wick.

--
Dylan Smith, Port St Mary, Isle of Man
Flying: http://www.dylansmith.net
Oolite-Linux: an Elite tribute: http://oolite-linux.berlios.de
Frontier Elite Universe: http://www.alioth.net

[Ross Richardson]

I did the same thing in the '90s. I flew out of Air South at the
Shoreham Airport near Brighton. Same as Carl, I got an instructor to
keep me out of trouble and we flew the coast over to Portsmouth. Looking
back I wish we had flown east to Dover and the white clifts. I think
Air South is out of business, but after the flight, they broke out some
champagne for us Yanks. There are many museums for flying and military,
good to go see. Another trip is the bunker where Churchill directed the
war underneath London. It is called the Bunker, I believe. You will have
to ask a tourist guide. Wentworth Airfield is like Rickenback. Very old
aircraft. Forgive the spellings.

Ross
KSWI

Carl Orton wrote:

> A few years ago I flew out of Old Sarum Flying Club near Salisbury.
> Allegedly the oldest airfield in England in it's original configuration.
> Grass over chalk. Farnborough's older but has obviously grown with the
> population.
>
> Your US license is good to go; I only had a short time there, so rather than
> get checked out for solo, I just went for an hour with an instructor, just
> so I could have a UK entry in my logbook. At the time, rental costs for a
> '66 172 were like $200/hr US, not counting the instructor. !!!
>
>
> "Paul Folbrecht" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>Biz trip to London - leaving this weekend. Thinking of doing some flying
>>there. I'm an American PP-SEL-IA. Suggestions on where to go, etc.?
>>
>>Thanks!
>>
>>Paul
>
>
>

[Chris]

"Dylan Smith" > wrote in message
...
> On 2006-04-03, Chris > wrote:
>>
>>> On a point of pedantry - if he flies up to Scotland, he'll find Class E
>>> airspace.
>>
>> On a point of pedantry the OP was asking about London not Scotland or the
>> teeny weenie bit of Teeside or even Belfast where there is Class E.
>
> But it is entirely possible that he could fly a light plane from London
> to Scotland. It's a bit misleading to tell him that there is no class E
> when he could quite conceivably meet some should he decide to take a
> couple of days out and fly from London to Wick.

It would set him back the best part of £1500 -£2000 for the privilege. I
know you think Americans are a bit daft but hey they are not that daft.

[Dylan Smith]

On 2006-04-04, Chris > wrote:
> It would set him back the best part of £1500 -£2000 for the privilege. I
> know you think Americans are a bit daft but hey they are not that daft.

I don't think Americans are daft at all, as a matter of fact. I also
make no assumptions about the guy's wealth - he could be a millionaire
for all I know.

--
Dylan Smith, Port St Mary, Isle of Man
Flying: http://www.dylansmith.net
Oolite-Linux: an Elite tribute: http://oolite-linux.berlios.de
Frontier Elite Universe: http://www.alioth.net