Hot grass fire at Sun-N-Fun

[[email protected]]

>From Lakeland Ledger newspaper
23 cars burnt.

http://www.theledger.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060407/NEWS/604070342/1039

[.Blueskies.]

> wrote in message oups.com...
> >From Lakeland Ledger newspaper
> 23 cars burnt.
>
> http://www.theledger.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060407/NEWS/604070342/1039
>

Wow, bummer...

Global warming strikes again?

" John Burton, Sun 'n Fun's president, said the main problem is the persistent drought in the area.
"I don't know the last time we got any significant rainfall here," he said. "


;-)

[Bill Daniels]

> wrote in message
oups.com...
> >From Lakeland Ledger newspaper
> 23 cars burnt.
>
> http://www.theledger.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060407/NEWS/604070342/1039
>

This is a well known problem with glider retrieves. If the vehicle pulling
the glider trailer pulls off the highway into a grass field to get near
glider the red hot catalytic converter can set the grass on fire. It's
happened more than once. Driving an off-road vehicle on grasslands is also
a fire hazard. Catalytic converters get red hot.

Avoid driving on dry grass if at all possible. If not, stop and shut off
the engine on the highway sholder to let the cat cool off before driving
onto the field.

[Jase Vanover]

I remember as a young boy (and I ain't that old now) my uncle converting all
of the farm trucks to "straight pipes". Cut out the catalytic converter, no
muffler, exhaust going straight up instead of under, during a very dry
harvest season. Not the first time it's happened... probably not the last.


"Bill Daniels" <bildan@comcast-dot-net> wrote in message
...
>
> > wrote in message
> oups.com...
>> >From Lakeland Ledger newspaper
>> 23 cars burnt.
>>
>> http://www.theledger.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060407/NEWS/604070342/1039
>>
>
> This is a well known problem with glider retrieves. If the vehicle
> pulling the glider trailer pulls off the highway into a grass field to get
> near glider the red hot catalytic converter can set the grass on fire.
> It's happened more than once. Driving an off-road vehicle on grasslands
> is also a fire hazard. Catalytic converters get red hot.
>
> Avoid driving on dry grass if at all possible. If not, stop and shut off
> the engine on the highway sholder to let the cat cool off before driving
> onto the field.
>

[Capt.Doug]

>"Jase Vanover" wrote in message> Not the first time it's happened...
probably not the last.

Most of S-n-F's automotive parking is on grass. Central Florida has water
restrictions in place quite early this year. The temp/dew point spread was
30/-1 a few days ago- something I have never seen before in the peninsula. I
wonder if the car owners' insurance will subrogate S-n-F for the claims?

D.

[John Ammeter]

My opinion... whenever an airshow has parking on grass fields they
become completely liable for any fires caused by catalytic converters.
It's no secret that all modern vehicles have catalytic converters and
it's no secret that hot catalytic converters WILL cause dry grass to
catch on fire.

IMHO, SNF is completely responsible for any and all damages incurred
because of the fires.

They should have cut the grass earlier and much shorter so it wouldn't
have caught on fire, causing the damage to the cars...

We have the same problem here at the Arlington Airfair... I drive a
full size truck so I'm not likely to cause a fire but any normal sedan,
being much lower, is quite likely to be able to catch the grass on fire.
I figure we've been lucky so far but can't count on that to last
forever...

John

Capt.Doug wrote:
>>"Jase Vanover" wrote in message> Not the first time it's happened...
>
> probably not the last.
>
> Most of S-n-F's automotive parking is on grass. Central Florida has water
> restrictions in place quite early this year. The temp/dew point spread was
> 30/-1 a few days ago- something I have never seen before in the peninsula. I
> wonder if the car owners' insurance will subrogate S-n-F for the claims?
>
> D.
>
>

[.Blueskies.]

"John Ammeter" > wrote in message ...
> My opinion... whenever an airshow has parking on grass fields they become completely liable for any fires caused by
> catalytic converters. It's no secret that all modern vehicles have catalytic converters and it's no secret that hot
> catalytic converters WILL cause dry grass to catch on fire.
>
> IMHO, SNF is completely responsible for any and all damages incurred because of the fires.
>
> They should have cut the grass earlier and much shorter so it wouldn't have caught on fire, causing the damage to the
> cars...
>
> We have the same problem here at the Arlington Airfair... I drive a full size truck so I'm not likely to cause a fire
> but any normal sedan, being much lower, is quite likely to be able to catch the grass on fire. I figure we've been
> lucky so far but can't count on that to last forever...
>
> John
>


Sometime shortly after the catalytic converters were mandated, heat shields were also mandated that are _supposed_ to
prevent this fire problem....

[Dave S]

> Sometime shortly after the catalytic converters were mandated, heat
shields were also mandated that are _supposed_ to
> prevent this fire problem....
>
>

The heat shield cuts down on radiant heat from the CC, but if the
heatshield itself is hot enough and TOUCHES the tall dry grass, then you
still have a fire.

Dave

[RST Engineering]

Shoot, Uncle John, I don't know how things are up north of us by you, but in
Northern California you couldn't light the grass on fire with a propane
torch and a tank full of gasoline.

83" of rain so far this year, and still pounding down.

Jim




"John Ammeter" > wrote in message
...


>
> We have the same problem here at the Arlington Airfair... I drive a full
> size truck so I'm not likely to cause a fire but any normal sedan, being
> much lower, is quite likely to be able to catch the grass on fire. I
> figure we've been lucky so far but can't count on that to last forever...
>
> John

[John Ammeter]

My neighbor fired up a pile of dry blackberry bushes yesterday. That
pile has been sitting there for 6 or 7 months all through the winter
but, when he set it off, within a minute or so you couldn't get within
15 feet of it. It was amazing how fast it burned. With a dry winter,
our forests and grasslands can be the same way.

John

RST Engineering wrote:
> Shoot, Uncle John, I don't know how things are up north of us by you, but in
> Northern California you couldn't light the grass on fire with a propane
> torch and a tank full of gasoline.
>
> 83" of rain so far this year, and still pounding down.
>
> Jim
>
>
>
>
> "John Ammeter" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>
>
>>We have the same problem here at the Arlington Airfair... I drive a full
>>size truck so I'm not likely to cause a fire but any normal sedan, being
>>much lower, is quite likely to be able to catch the grass on fire. I
>>figure we've been lucky so far but can't count on that to last forever...
>>
>>John
>
>
>

[Mark Hickey]

Dave S > wrote:

> > Sometime shortly after the catalytic converters were mandated, heat
>shields were also mandated that are _supposed_ to
>> prevent this fire problem....
>
>The heat shield cuts down on radiant heat from the CC, but if the
>heatshield itself is hot enough and TOUCHES the tall dry grass, then you
>still have a fire.

Seems like if there's ANY air gap at all between the CC and shield
that there would be a HUGE difference in temperature between the two.
If there's no air gap, then it's not a shield, really.

Mark Hickey

[[email protected]]

Mark Hickey wrote:
> Dave S > wrote:
>
> > > Sometime shortly after the catalytic converters were mandated, heat
> >shields were also mandated that are _supposed_ to
> >> prevent this fire problem....
> >
> >The heat shield cuts down on radiant heat from the CC, but if the
> >heatshield itself is hot enough and TOUCHES the tall dry grass, then you
> >still have a fire.
>
> Seems like if there's ANY air gap at all between the CC and shield
> that there would be a HUGE difference in temperature between the two.
> If there's no air gap, then it's not a shield, really.
>

I'd worry that tall grass could get caught and wadded between the two
while driving.

--

FF

[Montblack]

wrote)
> I'd worry that tall grass could get caught and wadded between the two
> while driving.


During the Minnesota Twins World Series parade, in 1987, a few of the
convertibles caught fire from just that - paper, toilet paper, confetti,
etc. dragged along under the cars.

In 1991 the players sat/stood in the beds of 4x4 pickup trucks.


Montblack

[[email protected]]

> Shoot, Uncle John, I don't know how things are up north of us by you, but in
> Northern California you couldn't light the grass on fire with a propane
> torch and a tank full of gasoline.
>
> 83" of rain so far this year, and still pounding down.

I just talked with a guest who is coming in from NorCal, and he says
the flying there has absolutely SUCKED for the last five months. Very
unusual.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[John T]

Thats kinda reminds me how I disposed of some old gunpowder. Dumped it
in the outdoor fireplace and touched it off. The flame built up slowly,
but it eventually had a flame about 10' high the diameter of the pile of
powder. Very impressive, but too expensive to repeat! :)

John

[Dan]

John T wrote:
> Thats kinda reminds me how I disposed of some old gunpowder. Dumped it
> in the outdoor fireplace and touched it off. The flame built up slowly,
> but it eventually had a flame about 10' high the diameter of the pile of
> powder. Very impressive, but too expensive to repeat! :)
>
> John
>

That's smokeless powder, try it with black powder :) Here's an
experiment: put a tablespoonful of black powder in an ash tray. Touch it
off with a blowtorch held at arm's length. The powder will burn fast
enough to extinguish the blowtorch.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

[Peter Dohm]

"Dan" > wrote in message news:bwZZf.362$iF3.333@dukeread01...
> John T wrote:
> > Thats kinda reminds me how I disposed of some old gunpowder. Dumped it
> > in the outdoor fireplace and touched it off. The flame built up slowly,
> > but it eventually had a flame about 10' high the diameter of the pile of
> > powder. Very impressive, but too expensive to repeat! :)
> >
> > John
> >
>
> That's smokeless powder, try it with black powder :) Here's an
> experiment: put a tablespoonful of black powder in an ash tray. Touch it
> off with a blowtorch held at arm's length. The powder will burn fast
> enough to extinguish the blowtorch.
>
> Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

I sure hope that you meant demonstration rather than experiment; because I'd
be way too scared to try anything like that on an experimental basis.
Peter

BTW, the USAF must have been an entertaining place. :-)

[Anthony W]

Dan wrote:
> John T wrote:
>> Thats kinda reminds me how I disposed of some old gunpowder. Dumped it
>> in the outdoor fireplace and touched it off. The flame built up
>> slowly, but it eventually had a flame about 10' high the diameter of
>> the pile of powder. Very impressive, but too expensive to repeat! :)
>>
>> John
>>
>
> That's smokeless powder, try it with black powder :) Here's an
> experiment: put a tablespoonful of black powder in an ash tray. Touch it
> off with a blowtorch held at arm's length. The powder will burn fast
> enough to extinguish the blowtorch.
>
> Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

[clare at snyder.on.ca]

On Sat, 08 Apr 2006 13:24:55 GMT, Dave S >
wrote:

> > Sometime shortly after the catalytic converters were mandated, heat
>shields were also mandated that are _supposed_ to
>> prevent this fire problem....
>>
>>
>
>The heat shield cuts down on radiant heat from the CC, but if the
>heatshield itself is hot enough and TOUCHES the tall dry grass, then you
>still have a fire.
>
>Dave
And any mechanic knows the heat sheilds often do not last more than a
few years before they come loose and rattle. Then they can either be
clamped on, welded on, or allowed (or helped) to fall off.

A minor missfire can also cause the converter to overheat. Imagine
what happens if the engine "diesels" on shut-down. My wife drove our
Corolla to visit her family in Windsor, and the cruise stuck, holding
the throttle partly open. When she shut it off(in neutral) it
"dieseled" and the cat must have flashed white hot, as it caused the
carpet on the floor above the converter to start on fire. The carpet,
a corner of the seat, and the console had been consumed by the smokey
fire before her sisterinlaw and nephew got the hose out and turned on.
We salvaged the car and got a few more years out of it, but if IT had
been on dry grass on a breezy day, that would have been the end of it.

*** Free account sponsored by SecureIX.com ***
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[Morgans]

<clare at snyder.on.ca> wrote

> A minor missfire can also cause the converter to overheat. Imagine
> what happens if the engine "diesels" on shut-down.

> We salvaged the car and got a few more years out of it, but if IT had
> been on dry grass on a breezy day, that would have been the end of it.

Yep. I had an Olds that was suddenly having intermittent loss of almost all
power, then it would be fine. I was driving it one day and hit a bump, and
heard a strange "ker-thump" (that's technical car talk <g>) then it lost all
power.

Long to short, I started thinking about the 'ole potato in the tailpipe, and
how it behaved like that. I cut into the pipe downstream of the converter,
and saw that all of the pellets had melted into a perfectly molded lump,
just the shape of the back part of the cat. shell. When I hit the bump, the
lump rolled into the outlet, and shut off the exhaust gas flow. Really
lucky to trouble shoot that one!

It is hard to say how hot it had gotten to melt the pellets, like that.
Certainly hot enough to start a fire.
--
Jim in NC

[Dan]

Peter Dohm wrote:
> "Dan" > wrote in message news:bwZZf.362$iF3.333@dukeread01...
>> John T wrote:
>>> Thats kinda reminds me how I disposed of some old gunpowder. Dumped it
>>> in the outdoor fireplace and touched it off. The flame built up slowly,
>>> but it eventually had a flame about 10' high the diameter of the pile of
>>> powder. Very impressive, but too expensive to repeat! :)
>>>
>>> John
>>>
>> That's smokeless powder, try it with black powder :) Here's an
>> experiment: put a tablespoonful of black powder in an ash tray. Touch it
>> off with a blowtorch held at arm's length. The powder will burn fast
>> enough to extinguish the blowtorch.
>>
>> Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired
>
> I sure hope that you meant demonstration rather than experiment; because I'd
> be way too scared to try anything like that on an experimental basis.
> Peter
>
> BTW, the USAF must have been an entertaining place. :-)
>
>
It had its moments :) If you ever get a chance go to one of Eglin
AFB's munitions demonstrations. I think they are still open to the
public. You will get to see all kinds of things go boom.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

[Ernest Christley]

John Ammeter wrote:
> My opinion... whenever an airshow has parking on grass fields they
> become completely liable for any fires caused by catalytic converters.
> It's no secret that all modern vehicles have catalytic converters and
> it's no secret that hot catalytic converters WILL cause dry grass to
> catch on fire.
>
> IMHO, SNF is completely responsible for any and all damages incurred
> because of the fires.
>
> They should have cut the grass earlier and much shorter so it wouldn't
> have caught on fire, causing the damage to the cars...

I have to support John on this one. I tried to sleep on that "cut"
grass. They shouldn't have cut it. They should have HARVESTED it. It
must have been knee high when they sent the tractors out, and they just
left it all clumped up. A Mazirati could have easily scooped up plenty
of that tinder into a catalytic converter "shield".

--
This is by far the hardest lesson about freedom. It goes against
instinct, and morality, to just sit back and watch people make
mistakes. We want to help them, which means control them and their
decisions, but in doing so we actually hurt them (and ourselves)."