Quality helicopter sim?

[AirDolphin]

Can someone recommend a quality helicopter simulator?
(Yet affordable by an individual enthusiast/helicopter student)

Esp. I am looking for one with Schweitzer 300C/CB/CBi (Hughes 269C) model.

What do people think of the helicopter models in X-Plane and MS Flightsim?

Thanks.

[Marc]

I use both MSFS2004 and X-Plane 8 for helos, but MSFS is not adequate for
helo training. There used to be some helo combat sims but I've never tried
them.

MS Flightsim is eye-candy but melts quickly; it doesn't autorotate. X-Plane
autorotates quite accurately.

I have not made either sim demonstrate settling-with-power (ring-vortex
state).

Neither sim comes with an SGS-300 but users have made dozens of free
downloadable helos. X-Plane lets you make your own by modifying existing
models.

X-plane has external long-line loads you can practice with, but lacks an
inset view so you cannot fly and position your load at the same time.

MSFS has a more complex GPS, but X-plane's is adequate for VFR navigation.
Both sims can be used for IFR helo flight. X-plane's S-61 Sea King has an
autopilot which makes IFR approaches much easier.

Both sims come with a Bell 206 and a Robinson R-22. The MSFS R-22 is a
breeze to fly, NOT like the real thing. X-Plane's R-22 is realistically
dicy.

I like MSFS for recreation, but not when I am trying to improve skills.

--
Thanks,
Marc Williams
----------------------------------
"AirDolphin" > wrote in message
om...
> Can someone recommend a quality helicopter simulator?
> (Yet affordable by an individual enthusiast/helicopter student)
>
> Esp. I am looking for one with Schweitzer 300C/CB/CBi (Hughes 269C) model.
>
> What do people think of the helicopter models in X-Plane and MS Flightsim?
>
> Thanks.

[Sammy]

Just posted this elsewhere:

Autorotation can be simulated with a kludge. Don't kill the throttle.
Instead bring it to 0, then back up to between 10 and 20 and "pretend"
you've just switched the engine off.

http://www.hovercontrol.com/artman/publish/article_18.shtml

[CriticalMass]

The OTHER Kevin in San Diego wrote:

>the helicopters are way easier to fly than the real thing - especially the Robinsons. All
>helicopters are turbine powered and the flight models are tweaked to "emulate" piston power.
>


Absolutely FALSE. If "real-world" helicopters "flew" anything like the
models in FS2004, there wouldn't BE any "real-world" helo pilots -
they'd all be dead by now.

MS FlightSimulator doesn't come close to simulating helicopters.

[Heywood Jablowme]

As a real-world multi-thousand hour helo pilot, I can confirm what
Critical mass says. M$2K4 flies nothing like a real helicopter. The
models are awful.

The closest thing to reality can be achieved with Janes Longbow2 on
full realism. It's a PITA to get it to run on a WinXP box, but with
tweaking it works great.

CriticalMass > wrote:

>The OTHER Kevin in San Diego wrote:
>
>>the helicopters are way easier to fly than the real thing - especially the Robinsons. All
>>helicopters are turbine powered and the flight models are tweaked to "emulate" piston power.
>>
>
>
>Absolutely FALSE. If "real-world" helicopters "flew" anything like the
>models in FS2004, there wouldn't BE any "real-world" helo pilots -
>they'd all be dead by now.
>
>MS FlightSimulator doesn't come close to simulating helicopters.
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[Garrot[_1_]]

Heywood Jablowme wrote:
> As a real-world multi-thousand hour helo pilot, I can confirm what
> Critical mass says. M$2K4 flies nothing like a real helicopter. The
> models are awful.
>
> The closest thing to reality can be achieved with Janes Longbow2 on
> full realism. It's a PITA to get it to run on a WinXP box, but with
> tweaking it works great.

Have you ever flown Search&Rescue: Coastal Heroes? Some people say it is
somewhat realistic so am interested in your opinion. There is a demo if
you want to check it out.

http://www.3dgamers.com/games/searchrescue4/

http://pc.iavgames.com/searchandrescue4/

[CriticalMass]

The OTHER Kevin in San Diego wrote:

>On Sat, 09 Sep 2006 19:23:08 -0500, CriticalMass > wrote:
>
>
>
>>The OTHER Kevin in San Diego wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>the helicopters are way easier to fly than the real thing - especially the Robinsons. All
>>>helicopters are turbine powered and the flight models are tweaked to "emulate" piston power.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>Absolutely FALSE. If "real-world" helicopters "flew" anything like the
>>models in FS2004, there wouldn't BE any "real-world" helo pilots -
>>they'd all be dead by now.
>>
>>MS FlightSimulator doesn't come close to simulating helicopters.
>>
>>
>
>Isn't that what I had implied? While not a mutli-thousand hour helo
>pilot like heywood, I am a commercially rated heli pilot myself...
>
>
>
>

Not the way I read your post. I, and numerous others, have repeatedly
maintained they don't model real helos due to the nasty roll tendency
built into the flight models that essentially make them unflyable at
very low airspeeds. They're unrealistically HARDER to fly than the real
thing, not easier, as you said.

[Garrot[_1_]]

CriticalMass wrote:

> Not the way I read your post. I, and numerous others, have repeatedly
> maintained they don't model real helos due to the nasty roll tendency
> built into the flight models that essentially make them unflyable at
> very low airspeeds. They're unrealistically HARDER to fly than the real
> thing, not easier, as you said.

Someone here try SAR4 that I posted about in my other post. I've flown
LB2 many times and SAR4 feels similar in flight model.

[CriticalMass]

The OTHER Kevin in San Diego wrote:

>Perhaps it's the flight controls I'm using.. I've got a full
>collective/cyclic/pedal setup (Home built) using Epic hardware and
>some Epic code/FSUIPC to "fake" some of the aerodynamics so I don't
>see the roll tendencies. Is this roll tendency present in 2002 and
>2004? (I only have 2002)
>
>

Interesting. You may be on to something. I honestly can't remember far
enough back to recall how FS02 was. I was referring to FS04, and it's
definitely there. It's widely known and is a recognized and reported
defect in the helo flight models. I've always been amazed that MS never
bothered to patch it. This is a major contrast to the light single
flight models in FS04, which are passably good, IMO. I'm FAA-rated for
those, but not helos.

I've never tried it with the kind of controls you have. I've always
just used the best consumer joysticks I could find, force feedback ones
from CH or MS.

Attempting to lift off and hover IGE with the Bell, or any of the other
ones, is pretty nearly impossible; the aircraft is immediately totally
unstable, no matter how carefully you handle the stick, and there's a
point in these uncommanded rolling tendencies where recovery is pretty
much impossible, no matter how much control input is given. Same thing
happens at any airspeed below about 40 kts, IIRC, and slowing to hover
and land is the same deal. Pretty dicey.

You should pick up a copy of FS04 and try it with your setup - I think
the price is only $20-$30 now, can't remember what it was when I was at
CompUSA last.

[CriticalMass]

Garrot wrote:

> Someone here try SAR4 that I posted about in my other post. I've flown
> LB2 many times and SAR4 feels similar in flight model.


I d/l the demo and tried it. Didn't get far with it because it
apparently won't recognize any more than mouse, keyboard and joystick x
and y (roll and pitch). It doesn't see my rudder pedals, and I can't be
bothered to fly with a mouse or keyboard. That's certainly not
"realism", IMO. Not actually sure about the quality of the flight
model. I didn't get that far.

[Garrot[_1_]]

CriticalMass wrote:

> I d/l the demo and tried it. Didn't get far with it because it
> apparently won't recognize any more than mouse, keyboard and joystick x
> and y (roll and pitch). It doesn't see my rudder pedals, and I can't be
> bothered to fly with a mouse or keyboard. That's certainly not
> "realism", IMO. Not actually sure about the quality of the flight
> model. I didn't get that far.

I use a twist stick and I get rudder control, collective too. But I have
the full game and never tried the demo.

[Heywood Jablowme]

The flight model was just as pathertic in FS2004 as 2002.

I'm rated in commercial/instrument helos and really fly both. I've
been flying for a living for years.

And on the computer I also have a fancy set of $1000 flight controls.

M$ did a typically pathetic job on their software, but at least it
installed okay! ;-)



Garrot > wrote:

>CriticalMass wrote:
>
>> I d/l the demo and tried it. Didn't get far with it because it
>> apparently won't recognize any more than mouse, keyboard and joystick x
>> and y (roll and pitch). It doesn't see my rudder pedals, and I can't be
>> bothered to fly with a mouse or keyboard. That's certainly not
>> "realism", IMO. Not actually sure about the quality of the flight
>> model. I didn't get that far.
>
>I use a twist stick and I get rudder control, collective too. But I have
>the full game and never tried the demo.