ATC Tape

[Steffen Braasch]

Good Morning,

perhaps somebody can help my here.

I´m looking for the ATC sound-file of the 1982 British Airways All
Engine Flame Out Incident . Especially the Mayday call.

I could use that very good for a small, non commercial presentation in
my classroom.

So far, google did nit help me.

perhaps anybody in this group can help me better.

Greetings from Europe

Steffen


----------
Antworten/ Reply: SteffenBraasch(at)gmx.de

[Gord Beaman]

(Steffen Braasch) wrote:

>Good Morning,
>
>perhaps somebody can help my here.
>
>I´m looking for the ATC sound-file of the 1982 British Airways All
>Engine Flame Out Incident . Especially the Mayday call.
>
>I could use that very good for a small, non commercial presentation in
>my classroom.
>
>So far, google did nit help me.
>
>perhaps anybody in this group can help me better.
>
>Greetings from Europe
>
>Steffen
>
>
Y'know, I get a kick out of this statement...although I've flown
in the busuness end of aircraft for 25-26 years while logging
13,000 hours of flying time, I've NEVER heard any pilot say
"Mayday" on air ever, not once in all that time!, not
once...everyone ALWAYS says (in a deep calm voice) "We're
declaring an emergency and returning to...."). Even the Alaska
Air aircraft which had the elevator trim stripped screwjack
problem which I just heard recently says calmly to ATC
"Ah...we're in a vertical dive here...ah...we'll give you a call
when we get it under control" (or words to that effect), calm...I
know Mayday is used in civil marine use (I even heard a real ship
SOS in Morse Code and followed the whole rescue operation between
a freighter and a US Coast Guard Station). Very interesting
indeed...

I know what the proper call is (I hold a commercial radio
operators license) but my point is that it isn't used from
aircraft (that I've ever heard)
--

-Gord.
(use gordon in email)

[Steffen Braasch]

Hi Gord

Gord Beaman > wrote:
> know Mayday is used in civil marine use (I even heard a real ship
> SOS in Morse Code and followed the whole rescue operation between
> a freighter and a US Coast Guard Station). Very interesting
> indeed...
>
> I know what the proper call is (I hold a commercial radio
> operators license) but my point is that it isn't used from
> aircraft (that I've ever heard)

luckily, I´ve never had the chance to "declare an emergency" or even say
Mayday on radio.

I´ve flow all over the world, and, in Northern America and most of
Europe I also would probably declare an emergency iso "Mayday".

However, in some third part countries I certainly would use the word
Mayday. It brings you right to the point and everybody, even in the
deepest jungle, will understand this word (well, it will you do any help
there either).

In this particular case I´m looking for it surprised me, how the Brits
stayed so calm in this particular situation.

But, were I can find it?

Greetings
Steffen
----------
Antworten/ Reply: SteffenBraasch(at)gmx.de

[[email protected]]

> Y'know, I get a kick out of this statement...although I've flown
> in the busuness end of aircraft for 25-26 years while logging
> 13,000 hours of flying time, I've NEVER heard any pilot say
> "Mayday" on air ever, not once in all that time!

Well, you can't hear everything! :-)

I've declared mayday twice, got all the help I needed.
I'm here to say it works, and I will use it again, at need.

Best regards,

Jer/ "Flight instruction and mountain flying are my vocations!"
--
Jer/ (Slash) Eberhard, Mountain Flying Aviation, LTD, Ft Collins, CO
CELL 970 231-6325 EMAIL jer<at>frii.com http://users.frii.com/jer/
C-206 N9513G, CFII Airplane&Glider FAA-DEN Aviation Safety Counselor
CAP-CO Mission&Aircraft CheckPilot BM218 HAM N0FZD 240 Young Eagles!

[Stubby]

wrote:
>> Y'know, I get a kick out of this statement...although I've flown
>> in the busuness end of aircraft for 25-26 years while logging
>> 13,000 hours of flying time, I've NEVER heard any pilot say
>> "Mayday" on air ever, not once in all that time!
>
> Well, you can't hear everything! :-)
>
> I've declared mayday twice, got all the help I needed.
> I'm here to say it works, and I will use it again, at need.

It is troublesome when otherwise intelligent persons say, "It never
happened to me, so it can't happen to anyone anywhere in the world."
That's just bad logic. I wonder what all the experience has taught him.

[Gord Beaman]

Stubby > wrote:

wrote:
>>> Y'know, I get a kick out of this statement...although I've flown
>>> in the busuness end of aircraft for 25-26 years while logging
>>> 13,000 hours of flying time, I've NEVER heard any pilot say
>>> "Mayday" on air ever, not once in all that time!
>>
>> Well, you can't hear everything! :-)
>>
>> I've declared mayday twice, got all the help I needed.
>> I'm here to say it works, and I will use it again, at need.
>
>It is troublesome when otherwise intelligent persons say, "It never
>happened to me, so it can't happen to anyone anywhere in the world."
>That's just bad logic. I wonder what all the experience has taught him.
>

C'mon guys...where did I say that it never happens?...huh?...I
said that in all that time I had never heard it while at the same
time I'll add that I've likely heard at least 15 or 20 "We're
declaring an emergency and requesting immediate clearance to...".

Now, I'm only one guy of course, and that's been MY experience.
It's quite possible that someone out there has heard more
'maydays' than otherwise but I'd be surprised...

I've just found that experienced aircrews are somewhat pragmatic
and tend to avoid the melodramatic...I think most people who have
extensive experience in these fields will agree...
--

-Gord.
(use gordon in email)

[David Cartwright]

"Gord Beaman" > wrote in message
...
> Y'know, I get a kick out of this statement...although I've flown
> in the busuness end of aircraft for 25-26 years while logging
> 13,000 hours of flying time, I've NEVER heard any pilot say
> "Mayday" on air ever, not once in all that time!

When I did the practical RT exam for my PPL, the examiner (and the head
controller at a smallish international airport) gave me a useful morsel of
advice afterwards (and after awarding me a "pass", I'm glad to say). He
pointed out that if you have declared an emergency, it is useful to prefix
your subsequent calls with the word "Mayday". This means that (a) the
controller can pick you out with the greatest of ease among other broadcasts
(you may be on a frequency other than 121.5, after all, so there may well be
others broadcasting); and (b) other pilots know there's someone with an
urgent problem and can keep their traps shut unless it's important. Same
with "Pan" calls.

David C

[Gord Beaman]

"David Cartwright" > wrote:

>"Gord Beaman" > wrote in message
...
>> Y'know, I get a kick out of this statement...although I've flown
>> in the busuness end of aircraft for 25-26 years while logging
>> 13,000 hours of flying time, I've NEVER heard any pilot say
>> "Mayday" on air ever, not once in all that time!
>
>When I did the practical RT exam for my PPL, the examiner (and the head
>controller at a smallish international airport) gave me a useful morsel of
>advice afterwards (and after awarding me a "pass", I'm glad to say). He
>pointed out that if you have declared an emergency, it is useful to prefix
>your subsequent calls with the word "Mayday". This means that (a) the
>controller can pick you out with the greatest of ease among other broadcasts
>(you may be on a frequency other than 121.5, after all, so there may well be
>others broadcasting); and (b) other pilots know there's someone with an
>urgent problem and can keep their traps shut unless it's important. Same
>with "Pan" calls.
>
>David C
>
Probably a good idea (seems to me it's the required procedure for
Morse IIRC)
--

-Gord.
(use gordon in email)

[Brian Whatcott]

On Fri, 14 Apr 2006 16:39:31 GMT, Gord Beaman >
wrote:

(Steffen Braasch) wrote:
>
>>Good Morning,
>>
>>perhaps somebody can help my here.
>>
>>I´m looking for the ATC sound-file of the 1982 British Airways All
>>Engine Flame Out Incident . Especially the Mayday call.
>>
>>I could use that very good for a small, non commercial presentation in
>>my classroom.
>>
>>So far, google did nit help me.
>>
>>perhaps anybody in this group can help me better.
>>
>>Greetings from Europe
>>
>>Steffen
>>
>>
> Y'know, I get a kick out of this statement...although I've flown
>in the busuness end of aircraft for 25-26 years while logging
>13,000 hours of flying time, I've NEVER heard any pilot say
>"Mayday" on air ever, not once in all that time!, not
>once...everyone ALWAYS says (in a deep calm voice) "We're
>declaring an emergency and returning to...."). Even the Alaska
>Air aircraft which had the elevator trim stripped screwjack
>problem which I just heard recently says calmly to ATC
>"Ah...we're in a vertical dive here...ah...we'll give you a call
>when we get it under control" (or words to that effect), calm...I
>know Mayday is used in civil marine use (I even heard a real ship
>SOS in Morse Code and followed the whole rescue operation between
>a freighter and a US Coast Guard Station). Very interesting
>indeed...
>
>I know what the proper call is (I hold a commercial radio
>operators license) but my point is that it isn't used from
>aircraft (that I've ever heard)


I've heard a Pan or a Mayday, forget which. A light aircraft lost
a prop blade, Descended to land in a field UNDER power lines. The
family hopped out. We hung overhead to steer a local tower
led recovery.

Brian Whatcott Altus OK

[Gord Beaman]

Brian Whatcott > wrote:

>On Fri, 14 Apr 2006 16:39:31 GMT, Gord Beaman >
>wrote:
>
(Steffen Braasch) wrote:
>>
>>>Good Morning,
>>>
>>>perhaps somebody can help my here.
>>>
>>>I´m looking for the ATC sound-file of the 1982 British Airways All
>>>Engine Flame Out Incident . Especially the Mayday call.
>>>
>>>I could use that very good for a small, non commercial presentation in
>>>my classroom.
>>>
>>>So far, google did nit help me.
>>>
>>>perhaps anybody in this group can help me better.
>>>
>>>Greetings from Europe
>>>
>>>Steffen
>>>
>>>
>> Y'know, I get a kick out of this statement...although I've flown
>>in the busuness end of aircraft for 25-26 years while logging
>>13,000 hours of flying time, I've NEVER heard any pilot say
>>"Mayday" on air ever, not once in all that time!, not
>>once...everyone ALWAYS says (in a deep calm voice) "We're
>>declaring an emergency and returning to...."). Even the Alaska
>>Air aircraft which had the elevator trim stripped screwjack
>>problem which I just heard recently says calmly to ATC
>>"Ah...we're in a vertical dive here...ah...we'll give you a call
>>when we get it under control" (or words to that effect), calm...I
>>know Mayday is used in civil marine use (I even heard a real ship
>>SOS in Morse Code and followed the whole rescue operation between
>>a freighter and a US Coast Guard Station). Very interesting
>>indeed...
>>
>>I know what the proper call is (I hold a commercial radio
>>operators license) but my point is that it isn't used from
>>aircraft (that I've ever heard)
>
>
>I've heard a Pan or a Mayday, forget which. A light aircraft lost
>a prop blade, Descended to land in a field UNDER power lines. The
>family hopped out. We hung overhead to steer a local tower
>led recovery.
>
>Brian Whatcott Altus OK

Ok, fine, but how would you rate the number of occurrences of
that to the occurrences of "Ah...Boston Centre...SouthWest flt
908 heavy...ah...we've had an engine fire here, seems to be under
control...we'd like to declare an emergency and divert to..."
(?). Calm, businesslike...

I don't say that it's not 'proper' (it indeed is proper, correct
whatever) BUT it's just not done much.
--

-Gord.
(use gordon in email)

[Steffen Braasch]

Gord Beaman > wrote:

> I don't say that it's not 'proper' (it indeed is proper, correct
> whatever) BUT it's just not done much.

It´s me again, the OP of this thread.

I fly for a mayor German airline and I also agree with you, that I never
heard anybody saying "Mayday" on radio (but I did not hear anybody
declaring an emergency either).

However, we are teaching our pilots to use this "proper" word for an
emergency situation. It simply works much better in the
non-native-english countries my company is flying to.

That was also the reason I was looking for the ATC Tape in the Internet,
so far, no joy.

If you want to read about it, go to:

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0UBT/is_26_18/ai_n6280435

Greetings
Steffen
----------
Antworten/ Reply: SteffenBraasch(at)gmx.de

[Peter R.]

Gord Beaman > wrote:

> I've NEVER heard any pilot say
> "Mayday" on air ever, not once in all that time!, not

Have I got a recording for you. A few weeks ago a cargo Caravan was
crossing over Buffalo, NY, en route up to Maine, when the aircraft rolled
and entered an uncontrolled descent for a few minutes. The pilot screamed
"Mayday" several times before eventually regaining control of the
(apparently) iced up aircraft.

Let me know if you see this (the site normally requires a userid to see the
clips, but I am going to try to deep-link the audio clip):

About 8mb:

http://www.liveatc.net/forum/files/kbuf-apr-23-06-ice_791_489.mp3

If you cannot see this clip, let me know and I will post it to my website.

--
Peter

[Gord Beaman]

"Peter R." > wrote:

>Gord Beaman > wrote:
>
>> I've NEVER heard any pilot say
>> "Mayday" on air ever, not once in all that time!, not
>
>Have I got a recording for you. A few weeks ago a cargo Caravan was
>crossing over Buffalo, NY, en route up to Maine, when the aircraft rolled
>and entered an uncontrolled descent for a few minutes. The pilot screamed
>"Mayday" several times before eventually regaining control of the
>(apparently) iced up aircraft.
>
>Let me know if you see this (the site normally requires a userid to see the
>clips, but I am going to try to deep-link the audio clip):
>
>About 8mb:
>
>http://www.liveatc.net/forum/files/kbuf-apr-23-06-ice_791_489.mp3
>
>If you cannot see this clip, let me know and I will post it to my website.

No, it won't work Peter...I get:

Action canceled
Internet Explorer was unable to link to the Web page you
requested. The page might be temporarily unavailable.

There you go...
--

-Gord.
(use gordon in email)

[Peter R.]

Gord Beaman > wrote:

> No, it won't work Peter...I get:
>
> Action canceled
> Internet Explorer was unable to link to the Web page you
> requested. The page might be temporarily unavailable.
>
> There you go...

OK, Gord, let me post it to my site, then drop a link here. Standby.

--
Peter

[Peter R.]

Gord Beaman > wrote:

> No, it won't work Peter...I get:
>
> Action canceled
> Internet Explorer was unable to link to the Web page you
> requested. The page might be temporarily unavailable.
>
> There you go...

OK, here it is:

http://thericcs.net/aviation/misc/Caravan_Icing_Incident.mp3

--
Peter

[Gord Beaman]

"Peter R." > wrote:

>Gord Beaman > wrote:
>
>> No, it won't work Peter...I get:
>>
>> Action canceled
>> Internet Explorer was unable to link to the Web page you
>> requested. The page might be temporarily unavailable.
>>
>> There you go...
>
>OK, here it is:
>
>http://thericcs.net/aviation/misc/Caravan_Icing_Incident.mp3

Ok Peter, that works fine, thanks, poor gal sure had her troubles
didn't she? iced up at 10k and probably stalled it...guess she
made it home ok though...first 'mayday' I ever heard (of) on
air/ground VHF though.

Not sure how smart she was to press on for Bangor though (~500
miles?) vice landing at the airport near her position to sort
things out first.

I think that I may have told a fib about Alaska Air flt 261
though...the Capt did say 'mayday', just one word, near the end
of the tape (bone chilling episode for sure)...this is a
transcript of the ATC/maintenance talking to the aircraft
(transcribed from the CVR recovered from the crash site.
Here's the URL:
http://aviation-safety.net/investigation/cvr/transcripts/cvr_asa261.pdf

--

-Gord.
(use gordon in email)

[Peter R.]

Gord Beaman > wrote:

> Ok Peter, that works fine, thanks, poor gal sure had her troubles
> didn't she? iced up at 10k and probably stalled it...guess she
> made it home ok though...first 'mayday' I ever heard (of) on
> air/ground VHF though.

That was actually the second aircraft in two weeks over Buffalo that had
serious icing problems. The first was a Lear Jet returning to Buffalo from
Toronto. In this case, the aircraft entered an uncontrolled climb from
4,000 to 12,000 feet, most likely due to ice on the horizontal stabilizer.

This incident was also captured in the LiveATC.net's archives and can be
found as a separate audio file in LiveATC's Audio Clips forum. In this
case, however, the pilot did not use the word, "mayday."

There is also an example of a "pan-pan" in the LiveATC Audio Clips forum.
This one was declared by a KLM 747 pilot who was on the ILS right behind
the Airbus that ran off the runway at Toronto's Pearson airport last year.
Due to the airport closing for that period because of the accident, the
pilots expressed low fuel concerns and declared "pan-pan."

--
Peter

[Gord Beaman]

"Peter R." > wrote:

>Gord Beaman > wrote:
>
>> Ok Peter, that works fine, thanks, poor gal sure had her troubles
>> didn't she? iced up at 10k and probably stalled it...guess she
>> made it home ok though...first 'mayday' I ever heard (of) on
>> air/ground VHF though.
>
>That was actually the second aircraft in two weeks over Buffalo that had
>serious icing problems. The first was a Lear Jet returning to Buffalo from
>Toronto. In this case, the aircraft entered an uncontrolled climb from
>4,000 to 12,000 feet, most likely due to ice on the horizontal stabilizer.
>
>This incident was also captured in the LiveATC.net's archives and can be
>found as a separate audio file in LiveATC's Audio Clips forum. In this
>case, however, the pilot did not use the word, "mayday."
>
>There is also an example of a "pan-pan" in the LiveATC Audio Clips forum.
>This one was declared by a KLM 747 pilot who was on the ILS right behind
>the Airbus that ran off the runway at Toronto's Pearson airport last year.
>Due to the airport closing for that period because of the accident, the
>pilots expressed low fuel concerns and declared "pan-pan."

Thanks Peter...I was just running it here when my wife stuck her
nose in and said "Whatcha listening to?", then in fast order,
"turn that up!, is that real?? etc"...made me run it a couple of
times. Maybe I'm getting her hooked on things aeronautical?.. :)
--

-Gord.
(use gordon in email)

[Peter R.]

Gord Beaman > wrote:

> Thanks Peter...I was just running it here when my wife stuck her
> nose in and said "Whatcha listening to?", then in fast order,
> "turn that up!, is that real?? etc"...made me run it a couple of
> times. Maybe I'm getting her hooked on things aeronautical?.. :)

Yep, there's a lot of drama in those recordings, if you know the lingo.
Fortunately, all ended well in those cases. As you posted earlier,
however, the audio takes on an extra chilling quality when we know the
pilot and aircraft didn't make it.


--
Peter

[Brian Whatcott]

On Sun, 30 Apr 2006 20:58:29 GMT, Gord Beaman >
wrote:


>>I've heard a Pan or a Mayday, forget which. A light aircraft lost
>>a prop blade,
///

>Ok, fine, but how would you rate the number of occurrences of
>that to the occurrences of "Ah...Boston Centre...SouthWest flt
>908 heavy...ah...we've had an engine fire here, seems to be under
>control...we'd like to declare an emergency and divert to..."
>(?). Calm, businesslike...
>
>I don't say that it's not 'proper' (it indeed is proper, correct
>whatever) BUT it's just not done much.

I recall asking a veteran Delta captain for his moments,
experienced or heard, and he couldn't recall one worth mentioning. He
said.....

Brian Whatcott Altus OK

[Gord Beaman]

Brian Whatcott > wrote:

>On Sun, 30 Apr 2006 20:58:29 GMT, Gord Beaman >
>wrote:
>
>
>>>I've heard a Pan or a Mayday, forget which. A light aircraft lost
>>>a prop blade,
>///
>
>>Ok, fine, but how would you rate the number of occurrences of
>>that to the occurrences of "Ah...Boston Centre...SouthWest flt
>>908 heavy...ah...we've had an engine fire here, seems to be under
>>control...we'd like to declare an emergency and divert to..."
>>(?). Calm, businesslike...
>>
>>I don't say that it's not 'proper' (it indeed is proper, correct
>>whatever) BUT it's just not done much.
>
>I recall asking a veteran Delta captain for his moments,
>experienced or heard, and he couldn't recall one worth mentioning. He
>said.....
>
>Brian Whatcott Altus OK

Yes, certainly speaks well for the reliability of modern
jetliners...hundreds airbourne all the time plugging in thousands
and thousands of hours and you hear of very few incidents. Even
many fewer now than even a few years ago with piston power. I
suppose it's experience in running and maintaining these much
simpler engines plus the availability of exotic materials now.
--

-Gord.
(use gordon in email)