Kite flying

[Skylune]

I saw a few kids flying kites over the weekend. It occurred to me: What
if they were flying the kites real high in the vicinity of GA airports? I
don't think there are any laws about kite flying off airport property.

[Robert M. Gary]

Wow, how high were they flying those kits? 100 feet would seem quite
high for a kite. Maybe I'm wrong here.

-Robert

[[email protected]]

Some kites have up to 500 feet of line or more.
mike s

Robert M. Gary wrote:
> Wow, how high were they flying those kits? 100 feet would seem quite
> high for a kite. Maybe I'm wrong here.
>
> -Robert

[Casey Wilson]

You might put 500 feet of line on the kite, but the catenary will not let it
go that high. I'd guess the 100 foot high would be really up there in terms
of kites.


> wrote in message
oups.com...
> Some kites have up to 500 feet of line or more.
> mike s
>
> Robert M. Gary wrote:
>> Wow, how high were they flying those kits? 100 feet would seem quite
>> high for a kite. Maybe I'm wrong here.
>>
>> -Robert
>

[Gig 601XL Builder]

"Skylune" > wrote in message
lkaboutaviation.com...
>I saw a few kids flying kites over the weekend. It occurred to me: What
> if they were flying the kites real high in the vicinity of GA airports? I
> don't think there are any laws about kite flying off airport property.
>

Follow this link


http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&q=Airport+near+El+Dorado+AR&om=1&ll=33.216143,-92.809153&spn=0.024486,0.039911

you see that area between Airport Dr. and the SW-NE runway? It was full of
kids flying kites this weekend and not a thing happened.

You really need to stop thinking of ways airplanes will crash. Some day it
will get you on a TSA list.

[Dana M. Hague]

People often fly kites from a state park adjacent to my local airport.
There are signs, though, prohibiting kites from the area along the
runway centerline.

They even have kite festivals there... and I've passed kites while
flying at 1200' (though participants in the festival are *supposed* to
stay below 500').

-Dana

On 18 Apr 2006 14:04:14 -0700, wrote:

>Some kites have up to 500 feet of line or more.
>mike s
>
>Robert M. Gary wrote:
>> Wow, how high were they flying those kits? 100 feet would seem quite
>> high for a kite. Maybe I'm wrong here.
>>
>> -Robert

--
--
If replying by email, please make the obvious changes.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
When I was born I was so surprised I didn't talk for a year and a half.

[Jim Logajan]

"Skylune" > wrote:
> I saw a few kids flying kites over the weekend. It occurred to me:
> What if they were flying the kites real high in the vicinity of GA
> airports? I don't think there are any laws about kite flying off
> airport property.

There are laws that cover kite flying under certain conditions - airports
are in fact covered by the regs. Relevant regs are in FAR part 101
"Moored balloons, kites, unmanned rockets and unmanned free balloons".

Quotes from some specific sections (see the FAR for the entire section):

"§ 101.13 Operating limitations.
(a) Except as provided in paragraph (b) of this section, no person may
operate a moored balloon or kite—

(1) Less than 500 feet from the base of any cloud;

(2) More than 500 feet above the surface of the earth;

(3) From an area where the ground visibility is less than three miles; or

(4) Within five miles of the boundary of any airport.

(b) Paragraph (a) of this section does not apply to the operation of a
balloon or kite below the top of any structure and within 250 feet of it,
if that shielded operation does not obscure any lighting on the
structure."

§ 101.15 Notice requirements.
No person may operate an unshielded moored balloon or kite more than 150
feet above the surface of the earth unless, at least 24 hours before
beginning the operation, he gives the following information to the FAA
ATC facility that is nearest to the place of intended operation:

(a) The names and addresses of the owners and operators.

(b) The size of the balloon or the size and weight of the kite.

(c) The location of the operation.

(d) The height above the surface of the earth at which the balloon or
kite is to be operated.

(e) The date, time, and duration of the operation.

§ 101.17 Lighting and marking requirements.
(a) No person may operate a moored balloon or kite, between sunset and
sunrise unless the balloon or kite, and its mooring lines, are lighted so
as to give a visual warning equal to that required for obstructions to
air navigation in the FAA publication “Obstruction Marking and Lighting”.

(b) No person may operate a moored balloon or kite between sunrise and
sunset unless its mooring lines have colored pennants or streamers
attached at not more than 50 foot intervals beginning at 150 feet above
the surface of the earth and visible for at least one mile. "

[J. Severyn]

Well I don't know about the folks in your area, but when I was a kid I had a
box kite I rescued from the surplus store. It was part of the antenna from
a life raft (came complete with instructions for connecting to a hand
cranked SOS transmitter). We had around a mile of heavy lacing cord on a
reel that helped us crank the kite up into the air. When all the cord was
released, we could just barely see the kite which was orange cloth on an
aluminum tube collapsible frame.

Come to think of it, I think I still have that kite. Fun 50 years ago. We
had no idea that we might be doing something illegal. Thanks for bringing
back the memory.

John Severyn
@KLVK

"Robert M. Gary" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Wow, how high were they flying those kits? 100 feet would seem quite
> high for a kite. Maybe I'm wrong here.
>
> -Robert
>

[Jim Macklin]

§ 101.13 Operating limitations.
(a) Except as provided in paragraph (b) of this section, no
person may operate a moored balloon or kite-

(1) Less than 500 feet from the base of any cloud;

(2) More than 500 feet above the surface of the earth;

(3) From an area where the ground visibility is less than
three miles; or

(4) Within five miles of the boundary of any airport.

(b) Paragraph (a) of this section does not apply to the
operation of a balloon or kite below the top of any
structure and within 250 feet of it, if that shielded
operation does not obscure any lighting on the structure.




--
James H. Macklin
ATP,CFI,A&P

--
The people think the Constitution protects their rights;
But government sees it as an obstacle to be overcome.
some support
http://www.usdoj.gov/olc/secondamendment2.htm
See http://www.fija.org/ more about your rights and duties.



"Skylune" > wrote in message
lkaboutaviation.com...
|I saw a few kids flying kites over the weekend. It
occurred to me: What
| if they were flying the kites real high in the vicinity of
GA airports? I
| don't think there are any laws about kite flying off
airport property.
|

[J. Severyn]

Google found it. This kite would really sail. Gibson Girl.
http://robroy.dyndns.info/targetkites/Mike/gibson01.jpg
A thousand feet up was easy for this kite.
John Severyn
@KLVK

"J. Severyn" > wrote in message
...
> Well I don't know about the folks in your area, but when I was a kid I had
> a box kite I rescued from the surplus store. It was part of the antenna
> from a life raft (came complete with instructions for connecting to a hand
> cranked SOS transmitter). We had around a mile of heavy lacing cord on a
> reel that helped us crank the kite up into the air. When all the cord was
> released, we could just barely see the kite which was orange cloth on an
> aluminum tube collapsible frame.
>
> Come to think of it, I think I still have that kite. Fun 50 years ago.
> We had no idea that we might be doing something illegal. Thanks for
> bringing back the memory.
>
> John Severyn
> @KLVK
>
> "Robert M. Gary" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
>> Wow, how high were they flying those kits? 100 feet would seem quite
>> high for a kite. Maybe I'm wrong here.
>>
>> -Robert
>>
>
>

[Stubby]

Dana M. Hague wrote:
> People often fly kites from a state park adjacent to my local airport.
> There are signs, though, prohibiting kites from the area along the
> runway centerline.
>
> They even have kite festivals there... and I've passed kites while
> flying at 1200' (though participants in the festival are *supposed* to
> stay below 500').
>
> -Dana
>
> On 18 Apr 2006 14:04:14 -0700, wrote:
>
>> Some kites have up to 500 feet of line or more.
>> mike s
>>
>> Robert M. Gary wrote:
>>> Wow, how high were they flying those kits? 100 feet would seem quite
>>> high for a kite. Maybe I'm wrong here.
>>>
>>> -Robert
>
> --
> --
> If replying by email, please make the obvious changes.
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> When I was born I was so surprised I didn't talk for a year and a half.

Check Pt. 101 which regulates kites, stationary balloons, etc.

[[email protected]]

>>>You really need to stop thinking of ways airplanes will crash. Some day it
will get you on a TSA list.<<<

Maybe that'll rid us of our resident r.a.p. troll?

[[email protected]]

I have one of those Gibson Girl kites. It flies great, but is rather
boring as kites go.

Anybody know why the emergency transmitter was called a "Gibson Girl"?
Hint: It was shaped to facilitate being held between the legs while the
operator turned the generator crank.

David Johnson

[Grumman-581]

> wrote in message
oups.com...
> Maybe that'll rid us of our resident r.a.p. troll?

Not as quick as a 12-gauge though...

[Dylan Smith]

On 2006-04-18, Skylune > wrote:
> I saw a few kids flying kites over the weekend. It occurred to me: What
> if they were flying the kites real high in the vicinity of GA airports? I
> don't think there are any laws about kite flying off airport property.

Yes there are - there is a section in the FARs covering kite flying. Of
course, most kite flyers have never heard of 14 CFR in the first place.

--
Dylan Smith, Port St Mary, Isle of Man
Flying: http://www.dylansmith.net
Oolite-Linux: an Elite tribute: http://oolite-linux.berlios.de
Frontier Elite Universe: http://www.alioth.net

[Ross Richardson]

We have a small city park on the north end of our airport. It is not
uncommon to sometimes have to dodge kites on the approach to the
airport. Usually have the police go out and explain the situation to them.

Ross
KSWI

wrote:

> Some kites have up to 500 feet of line or more.
> mike s
>
> Robert M. Gary wrote:
>
>>Wow, how high were they flying those kits? 100 feet would seem quite
>>high for a kite. Maybe I'm wrong here.
>>
>>-Robert
>
>

[Ross Richardson]

I remember as a kid we used to make our own kites and fly them pretty
high. Several spools of heavy twine was used. I wish we had cordless
drills to use to wind them back in. I seem to remember it took forever
to get them down. Didn't know anything about FARs back then.

Ross

Jim Logajan wrote:

> "Skylune" > wrote:
>
>>I saw a few kids flying kites over the weekend. It occurred to me:
>>What if they were flying the kites real high in the vicinity of GA
>>airports? I don't think there are any laws about kite flying off
>>airport property.
>
>
> There are laws that cover kite flying under certain conditions - airports
> are in fact covered by the regs. Relevant regs are in FAR part 101
> "Moored balloons, kites, unmanned rockets and unmanned free balloons".
>
> Quotes from some specific sections (see the FAR for the entire section):
>
> "§ 101.13 Operating limitations.
> (a) Except as provided in paragraph (b) of this section, no person may
> operate a moored balloon or kite—
>
> (1) Less than 500 feet from the base of any cloud;
>
> (2) More than 500 feet above the surface of the earth;
>
> (3) From an area where the ground visibility is less than three miles; or
>
> (4) Within five miles of the boundary of any airport.
>
> (b) Paragraph (a) of this section does not apply to the operation of a
> balloon or kite below the top of any structure and within 250 feet of it,
> if that shielded operation does not obscure any lighting on the
> structure."
>
> § 101.15 Notice requirements.
> No person may operate an unshielded moored balloon or kite more than 150
> feet above the surface of the earth unless, at least 24 hours before
> beginning the operation, he gives the following information to the FAA
> ATC facility that is nearest to the place of intended operation:
>
> (a) The names and addresses of the owners and operators.
>
> (b) The size of the balloon or the size and weight of the kite.
>
> (c) The location of the operation.
>
> (d) The height above the surface of the earth at which the balloon or
> kite is to be operated.
>
> (e) The date, time, and duration of the operation.
>
> § 101.17 Lighting and marking requirements.
> (a) No person may operate a moored balloon or kite, between sunset and
> sunrise unless the balloon or kite, and its mooring lines, are lighted so
> as to give a visual warning equal to that required for obstructions to
> air navigation in the FAA publication “Obstruction Marking and Lighting”.
>
> (b) No person may operate a moored balloon or kite between sunrise and
> sunset unless its mooring lines have colored pennants or streamers
> attached at not more than 50 foot intervals beginning at 150 feet above
> the surface of the earth and visible for at least one mile. "

[Skylune]

I think the standard string length is 250 feet.

[Skylune]

[Skylune]

LOL. So the kids I saw were in violation of the FARS!!! That is
hysterical. Kids flying kites should study the FARs. LOL. Perhaps the
kite fliers should include copies of the FARs with the kite.

[Skylune]

by "Grumman-581" > Apr 19, 2006 at
01:44 AM


> wrote in message
oups.com...
> Maybe that'll rid us of our resident r.a.p. troll?

Not as quick as a 12-gauge though...

<<

Ooooh. I bet my 12-guage is bigger than yours. LOL.

[Dylan Smith]

On 2006-04-19, Skylune > wrote:
> LOL. So the kids I saw were in violation of the FARS!!! That is
> hysterical.

Why is it hysterical?

> Kids flying kites should study the FARs. LOL.

If you engage in any activity at any age, it behooves you (or your
guardian, in the case of kids) to at least have a passing awareness of
laws that may be governing you. Flying kites on 1000 foot strings on an
airport departure path is every bit as brain dead as letting your kids
ride their bikes on the wrong side of a main road.

--
Yes, the Reply-To email address is valid.
Oolite-Linux: an Elite tribute: http://oolite-linux.berlios.de

[Skylune]

by Jim Logajan > Apr 18, 2006 at 09:56 PM




There are laws that cover kite flying under certain conditions - airports

are in fact covered by the regs. Relevant regs are in FAR part 101
"Moored balloons, kites, unmanned rockets and unmanned free balloons".

Quotes from some specific sections (see the FAR for the entire section):

"§ 101.13 Operating limitations.
(a) Except as provided in paragraph (b) of this section, no person may
operate a moored balloon or kite—

(1) Less than 500 feet from the base of any cloud;

(2) More than 500 feet above the surface of the earth;

(3) From an area where the ground visibility is less than three miles; or

(4) Within five miles of the boundary of any airport.

(b) Paragraph (a) of this section does not apply to the operation of a
balloon or kite below the top of any structure and within 250 feet of it,

if that shielded operation does not obscure any lighting on the
structure."

§ 101.15 Notice requirements.
No person may operate an unshielded moored balloon or kite more than 150
feet above the surface of the earth unless, at least 24 hours before
beginning the operation, he gives the following information to the FAA
ATC facility that is nearest to the place of intended operation:

(a) The names and addresses of the owners and operators.

(b) The size of the balloon or the size and weight of the kite.

(c) The location of the operation.

(d) The height above the surface of the earth at which the balloon or
kite is to be operated.

(e) The date, time, and duration of the operation.

§ 101.17 Lighting and marking requirements.
(a) No person may operate a moored balloon or kite, between sunset and
sunrise unless the balloon or kite, and its mooring lines, are lighted so

as to give a visual warning equal to that required for obstructions to
air navigation in the FAA publication “Obstruction Marking and Lighting”.

(b) No person may operate a moored balloon or kite between sunrise and
sunset unless its mooring lines have colored pennants or streamers
attached at not more than 50 foot intervals beginning at 150 feet above
the surface of the earth and visible for at least one mile. "

<<

It would seem to me that kite manufacturers are at risk of a lawsuit if
they don't post all these legal restrictions on their products. Doubtful
a collision with a kite would cause a crash, but it could present a
distraction for pilots that like to buzz low over the treetops.

I wonder if a collision with a kite is an FAA reportable incident. And,
would that then constitute sufficient proof of illegal low flying?

[Dylan Smith]

On 2006-04-19, Skylune > wrote:
> I wonder if a collision with a kite is an FAA reportable incident. And,
> would that then constitute sufficient proof of illegal low flying?

Like anything, it depends.

The notification requirement would be covered by NTSB 830 rather than
the FAA's regs. NTSB 830 says that it would be reportable, if:

(a) An aircraft accident or any of the following listed incidents
occur:
(1) Flight control system malfunction or failure;
(2) Inability of any required flight crewmember to perform
normal
flight duties as a result of injury or illness;
(3) Failure of structural components of a turbine engine
excluding
compressor and turbine blades and vanes;
(4) In-flight fire; or
(5) Aircraft collide in flight.
(6) Damage to property, other than the
aircraft, estimated to exceed
$25,000 for repair (including materials and
labor) or fair market value
in the event of total loss, whichever is
less.

Since a kite is not an aircraft, straight off the bat, it's not a
collision with another aircraft. If the collision with the kite causes
any of the other things listed above, then yes - it'll be reportable. If
it results in a bit of broken string, scratched paintwork and soiled
underwear, then no, it's not reportable.

As for the proof of illegal flying, this depends on:
- how long was the kite string? If it was over 500 feet, and the
aircraft was in an uncongested area, then no it wouldn't (and the kite
flyer may be in trouble).
- Was the aircraft approaching for landing or departing for takeoff? In
which case, no again.

Of course, if the string was 100 feet long and the plane wasn't taking
off or landing, then I'm sure the FAA could easily nail the pilot.

Basically - your second question can't be given a straight yes or no -
it depends on the circumstances.

--
Yes, the Reply-To email address is valid.
Oolite-Linux: an Elite tribute: http://oolite-linux.berlios.de

[Skylune]

by Dylan Smith > Apr 19, 2006 at 02:29 PM


On 2006-04-19, Skylune > wrote:
> LOL. So the kids I saw were in violation of the FARS!!! That is
> hysterical.

Why is it hysterical?

> Kids flying kites should study the FARs. LOL.

If you engage in any activity at any age, it behooves you (or your
guardian, in the case of kids) to at least have a passing awareness of
laws that may be governing you. Flying kites on 1000 foot strings on an
airport departure path is every bit as brain dead as letting your kids
ride their bikes on the wrong side of a main road

<<

It is ludicrous because the rules say you cannot fly a kite within 5 miles
of the airport boundary, not simply off the departure and arrival ends of
the runway. 5 miles! LOL.
The kite manufacturers should have liability warnings on the kites. Who
on earth could know that?

I suppose there are rules against raising carrier pigeons near GA airports
also. If those stupid little new hover crafts become popular, I am sure
that the FAA will somehow limit their usage as well. What about small
model planes? Are these also restricted?

Damn, I'm starting to understand why the STN people say that GA airports
should be required to purchase all land in a 25 mile radius. ;-)

[Montblack]

("De Loon" wrote)
>> Not as quick as a 12-gauge though...

> Ooooh. I bet my 12-guage is bigger than yours. LOL.


You're bragging about 3 inches? <g>


Montblack
2 3/4" - Remington model 1100
<http://hunting.about.com/od/toppicks/tp/tp_autoshotguns.htm>

[Dylan Smith]

On 2006-04-19, Skylune > wrote:
> It is ludicrous because the rules say you cannot fly a kite within 5 miles
> of the airport boundary, not simply off the departure and arrival ends of
> the runway. 5 miles! LOL.

No it doesn't say that at all. I suggest you read 14 CFR 101.13 *in
full*. In particular paragraph (b). You most certainly CAN fly a kite
within 5 miles of an airfield boundary. Paragraph (b) lists the common
sense exceptions.

> that the FAA will somehow limit their usage as well. What about small
> model planes? Are these also restricted?

There are regulations on model planes, too, as far as the altitude they
can be flown at. They are, after all, in the air committing aviation, so
this is in the FAA's domain. Why do you think it's stupid, ludicrous or
somehow hysterical that kites and models (both potentially dangerous
objects) have some kind of regulations from the administration that
happens to regulate the airspace they fly in?

--
Yes, the Reply-To email address is valid.
Oolite-Linux: an Elite tribute: http://oolite-linux.berlios.de

[Chris W]

Skylune wrote:

>I saw a few kids flying kites over the weekend. It occurred to me: What
>if they were flying the kites real high in the vicinity of GA airports? I
>don't think there are any laws about kite flying off airport property.
>
>
I used to fly RC planes at a park that was with in 3 miles of KOKC.
When the real planes flew over, they were higher than the RC planes.
However, the typical traffic patters didn't bring planes over the park,
so it was pretty rare to have one directly over head. I wonder if the
controllers saw us on radar? The engine was the only thing in most
planes that would reflect radar and they aren't very big. Anyway, no
one from the FAA ever came by to complain and we used to fly there on a
pretty regular basis. There were kids flying kites at that same park, as
I recall the RC planes were usually quite a bit higher than the kites,
however there was this one time an RC helicopter impacted a kite, the
kite's death was instantaneous, the helicopter died shortly after, when
it fell to the ground. I'm sure it was a spectacular impact, but I
didn't turn my head quick enough to see it :(

--
Chris W
KE5GIX

Gift Giving Made Easy
Get the gifts you want &
give the gifts they want
One stop wish list for any gift,
from anywhere, for any occasion!
http://thewishzone.com

[Jim Macklin]

Your City Council/Park Board should post signs in the parks.



--
James H. Macklin
ATP,CFI,A&P

--
The people think the Constitution protects their rights;
But government sees it as an obstacle to be overcome.
some support
http://www.usdoj.gov/olc/secondamendment2.htm
See http://www.fija.org/ more about your rights and duties.


"Ross Richardson" > wrote in
message ...
| We have a small city park on the north end of our airport.
It is not
| uncommon to sometimes have to dodge kites on the approach
to the
| airport. Usually have the police go out and explain the
situation to them.
|
| Ross
| KSWI
|
| wrote:
|
| > Some kites have up to 500 feet of line or more.
| > mike s
| >
| > Robert M. Gary wrote:
| >
| >>Wow, how high were they flying those kits? 100 feet
would seem quite
| >>high for a kite. Maybe I'm wrong here.
| >>
| >>-Robert
| >
| >

[Skylune]

by "Montblack" > Apr 19, 2006 at 11:03
AM


("De Loon" wrote)
>> Not as quick as a 12-gauge though...

> Ooooh. I bet my 12-guage is bigger than yours. LOL.


You're bragging about 3 inches? <g

<<

;-). But the barrel length is 20" and pumps out 9 shots.

http://www.mossberg.com/pcatalog/Specpurp.htm

[Skylune]

"§ 101.13 Operating limitations.
(a) Except as provided in paragraph (b) of this section, no person may
operate a moored balloon or kite—

(1) Less than 500 feet from the base of any cloud;

(2) More than 500 feet above the surface of the earth;

(3) From an area where the ground visibility is less than three miles; or

(4) Within five miles of the boundary of any airport.

??

Section 4 clearly says no kite flying within 5 miles. The 500' limitation
seems to be in effect everywhere. No?

[Skylune]

by Chris W > Apr 19, 2006 at 11:51 AM


>
I used to fly RC planes at a park that was with in 3 miles of KOKC.
When the real planes flew over, they were higher than the RC planes.
However, the typical traffic patters didn't bring planes over the park,
so it was pretty rare to have one directly over head. I wonder if the
controllers saw us on radar? The engine was the only thing in most
planes that would reflect radar and they aren't very big. Anyway, no
one from the FAA ever came by to complain and we used to fly there on a
pretty regular basis. There were kids flying kites at that same park, as
I recall the RC planes were usually quite a bit higher than the kites,
however there was this one time an RC helicopter impacted a kite, the
kite's death was instantaneous, the helicopter died shortly after, when
it fell to the ground. I'm sure it was a spectacular impact, but I
didn't turn my head quick enough to see it :(

<<

The kite caused the helo to crash???? Do you have an NTSB number or date?
I'd love to read about that one.

I re-read those FAA regs. I wonder who at the FAA I need to contact to
get permission to fly a kite over 250 feet. Do they have a division of
kite compliance? Who the hell would enforce it, esp since they don't
enforce minimums for the planes.

Man, I hope Boyer doesn't "take on" the poor kid who gets a kite for his
birthday, and unwittingly breaks the FARs.

[B A R R Y]

Chris W wrote:
> Anyway, no
> one from the FAA ever came by to complain and we used to fly there on a
> pretty regular basis.

There have been r/c vs. full scale conflicts around an r/c club at a
turf farm located south of HFD, where the FAA has complained. No
accidents that I know of, but complaints have been lodged. The
particular club has a large "giant scale" membership, so I suspect that
many of the planes weren't as close to full scales as the full scale
pilots may have perceived.

On the other hand, I've flown r/c @ active, open airports, with
permission. In that case, we simply used a spotter and landed the r/c
stuff until the full scale was clear of the runway. Kind of like street
hockey. If a plane appears in the pattern, someone yells "plane", and
we stop, and then someone yells "game on!" when the full scale is clear.
Other times, we'd have scanners or handhelds listening for approach calls.

Woodstock, CT, now a private field, even lists r/c activity in NOTAMS
and on airnav.com.

Before the current stadium was built, r/c was frequently flown at P&W's
East Hartford facility. Tethered balloons were flown to demonstrate
max. altitude to r/c pilots, to prevent conflicts with HFD.

[Jim Logajan]

"Skylune" > wrote:
> What about small model planes? Are these also restricted?

Oddly enough, I can find no regulations specifically mentioning RC planes.
The obvious regs, such as for ultralight vehicles, specifically state that
they are applicable only to manned vehicles.

Perhaps you or others could search the regulations and come up with the
relevant cites and post them here - I had no luck finding anything covering
unmanned aerial vehicles:
http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/text-idx?&c=ecfr&tpl=/ecfrbrowse/Title14/14tab_02.tpl

[Skylune]

by B A R R Y <balsapilot@[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Apr 19, 2006 at 05:18 PM

There have been r/c vs. full scale conflicts around an r/c club at a
turf farm located south of HFD, where the FAA has complained. No
accidents that I know of, but complaints have been lodged. The
particular club has a large "giant scale" membership, so I suspect that
many of the planes weren't as close to full scales as the full scale
pilots may have perceived.

On the other hand, I've flown r/c @[EMAIL PROTECTED]
active, open airports, with
permission. In that case, we simply used a spotter and landed the r/c
stuff until the full scale was clear of the runway. Kind of like street
hockey. If a plane appears in the pattern, someone yells "plane", and
we stop, and then someone yells "game on!" when the full scale is clear.
Other times, we'd have scanners or handhelds listening for approach
calls.

Woodstock, CT, now a private field, even lists r/c activity in NOTAMS
and on airnav.com.

Before the current stadium was built, r/c was frequently flown at P&W's
East Hartford facility. Tethered balloons were flown to demonstrate
max. altitude to r/c pilots, to prevent conflicts with HFD.

<<

Interesting stuff. Amazing how often new and interesting things keep
appearing on RAP. Its why I keep coming back.

This kite thing has some potential. If the folks at STN all bought sturdy
kites, outfitted them with 40 pound test fishing lines, and flew them at
499.5 feet, they would be perfectly within their legal rights, and it
might make the stunt planes fly a little higher...

[Jim Logajan]

"Skylune" > wrote:
> "§ 101.13 Operating limitations.
> (a) Except as provided in paragraph (b) of this section, no person may
> operate a moored balloon or kite—
>
> (1) Less than 500 feet from the base of any cloud;
>
> (2) More than 500 feet above the surface of the earth;
>
> (3) From an area where the ground visibility is less than three miles;
> or
>
> (4) Within five miles of the boundary of any airport.
>
> ??
>
> Section 4 clearly says no kite flying within 5 miles. The 500'
> limitation seems to be in effect everywhere. No?

First, if (1), (2), and (3) are implicitly joined by "and" (since (3) and
(4) are explicitly joined by "or") then if visibility is greater than three
miles, presumably one can fly kites closer than five miles to an airport so
long as the kites aren't too close to clouds or too high. But never higher
than 500 feet.

But I am not a lawyer and have never been able to figure out whether
regulation writers love to omit "and" and "or" on purpose in their bulleted
lists. If all the items were intended to be joined by "or" then presumably
you can fly your kite in any clouds or fog less than 500 feet AGL, or
twenty miles up if visibility is unlimited!

Also, you elided paragraph (b) which states other exceptions:

"(b) Paragraph (a) of this section does not apply to the operation of a
balloon or kite below the top of any structure and within 250 feet of it,
if that shielded operation does not obscure any lighting on the
structure."

[Ross Richardson]

Getting a little off topic here. I once saw a doctor and his child
flying a kite right in the easement path of power distribution lines. It
got to me so much that I had to stop and tell him how dangerous that
was. He said that he understood and had it under control. What some
people will do, even educated ones.

Ross
KSWI

Skylune wrote:

> by Dylan Smith > Apr 19, 2006 at 02:29 PM
>
>
> On 2006-04-19, Skylune > wrote:
>
>>LOL. So the kids I saw were in violation of the FARS!!! That is
>>hysterical.
>
>
> Why is it hysterical?
>
>
>>Kids flying kites should study the FARs. LOL.
>
>
> If you engage in any activity at any age, it behooves you (or your
> guardian, in the case of kids) to at least have a passing awareness of
> laws that may be governing you. Flying kites on 1000 foot strings on an
> airport departure path is every bit as brain dead as letting your kids
> ride their bikes on the wrong side of a main road
>
> <<
>
> It is ludicrous because the rules say you cannot fly a kite within 5 miles
> of the airport boundary, not simply off the departure and arrival ends of
> the runway. 5 miles! LOL.
> The kite manufacturers should have liability warnings on the kites. Who
> on earth could know that?
>
> I suppose there are rules against raising carrier pigeons near GA airports
> also. If those stupid little new hover crafts become popular, I am sure
> that the FAA will somehow limit their usage as well. What about small
> model planes? Are these also restricted?
>
> Damn, I'm starting to understand why the STN people say that GA airports
> should be required to purchase all land in a 25 mile radius. ;-)
>

[Skylune]

"§ 101.13 Operating limitations.
> (a) Except as provided in paragraph (b) of this section, no person may
> operate a moored balloon or kite—
>
> (1) Less than 500 feet from the base of any cloud;
>
> (2) More than 500 feet above the surface of the earth;
>
> (3) From an area where the ground visibility is less than three miles;
> or
>
> (4) Within five miles of the boundary of any airport.
>
> ??
>
> Section 4 clearly says no kite flying within 5 miles. The 500'
> limitation seems to be in effect everywhere. No?

First, if (1), (2), and (3) are implicitly joined by "and" (since (3) and

(4) are explicitly joined by "or") then if visibility is greater than
three
miles, presumably one can fly kites closer than five miles to an airport
so
long as the kites aren't too close to clouds or too high. But never
higher

than 500 feet.

But I am not a lawyer and have never been able to figure out whether
regulation writers love to omit "and" and "or" on purpose in their
bulleted
lists. If all the items were intended to be joined by "or" then
presumably

you can fly your kite in any clouds or fog less than 500 feet AGL, or
twenty miles up if visibility is unlimited!

Also, you elided paragraph (b) which states other exceptions:

"(b) Paragraph (a) of this section does not apply to the operation of a
balloon or kite below the top of any structure and within 250 feet of it,

if that shielded <<

Well, section b doesn't seem to apply. I read it as part 1 and 2 applying
in all cases. If I am right, that means you can't legally fly a kite over
500 feet, anywhere, period. Part 3 and 4: either apply: no kite flying
at all within five miles of the airport boundary or from an area where
ground visibility is less that three miles. (I have no idea what "ground
visibility under three miles means, though.)

Weird stuff. For fun, I am going to call the idiots at the FAA to get
clarification. I love to taunt those bureaucrat enablers.

[Frank Ch. Eigler]

Jim Logajan > writes:

> > (1) Less than 500 feet from the base of any cloud;
> > (2) More than 500 feet above the surface of the earth;
> > (3) From an area where the ground visibility is less than three miles;
> > or
> > (4) Within five miles of the boundary of any airport.
> >
> > Section 4 clearly says no kite flying within 5 miles. The 500'
> > limitation seems to be in effect everywhere. No?
>
> First, if (1), (2), and (3) are implicitly joined by "and" (since (3) and
> (4) are explicitly joined by "or") [...]

No, the same connective ("or" in this case) applies amongst all
parallel items.


- FChE

[Dan Engleman]

"Ross Richardson" > wrote in message
...
> We have a small city park on the north end of our airport. It is not
> uncommon to sometimes have to dodge kites on the approach to the airport.
> Usually have the police go out and explain the situation to them.
>
> Ross
> KSWI
>
Ross ain't kidding! I flew into SWI a week or so ago to partake of the $2.76
100LL and had to dodge kites on final. Fortunately some kind soul warned me
on the radio before I got there.

I called the police dept. and advised them of it, and the kites were gone by
the time I left.

Dan
KGYI

[Mike Schumann]

We had Green Giant kites that we got by sending in vegetable can labels. We
used monofilament line. We had an old bicycle that we converted the back
wheel into a spool, so we could reel in the line. It sounds like that
wasn't legal either.

One question however. When you read the FARS, it talks about "moored
balloons or kite". One could argue that a typical kite that is hand held,
is not moored.

Mike Schumann

"Ross Richardson" > wrote in message
...
>I remember as a kid we used to make our own kites and fly them pretty high.
>Several spools of heavy twine was used. I wish we had cordless drills to
>use to wind them back in. I seem to remember it took forever to get them
>down. Didn't know anything about FARs back then.
>
> Ross
>
> Jim Logajan wrote:
>
>> "Skylune" > wrote:
>>
>>>I saw a few kids flying kites over the weekend. It occurred to me: What
>>>if they were flying the kites real high in the vicinity of GA
>>>airports? I don't think there are any laws about kite flying off
>>>airport property.
>>
>>
>> There are laws that cover kite flying under certain conditions - airports
>> are in fact covered by the regs. Relevant regs are in FAR part 101
>> "Moored balloons, kites, unmanned rockets and unmanned free balloons".
>>
>> Quotes from some specific sections (see the FAR for the entire section):
>>
>> "§ 101.13 Operating limitations.
>> (a) Except as provided in paragraph (b) of this section, no person may
>> operate a moored balloon or kite—
>>
>> (1) Less than 500 feet from the base of any cloud;
>>
>> (2) More than 500 feet above the surface of the earth;
>>
>> (3) From an area where the ground visibility is less than three miles; or
>>
>> (4) Within five miles of the boundary of any airport.
>>
>> (b) Paragraph (a) of this section does not apply to the operation of a
>> balloon or kite below the top of any structure and within 250 feet of it,
>> if that shielded operation does not obscure any lighting on the
>> structure."
>>
>> § 101.15 Notice requirements.
>> No person may operate an unshielded moored balloon or kite more than 150
>> feet above the surface of the earth unless, at least 24 hours before
>> beginning the operation, he gives the following information to the FAA
>> ATC facility that is nearest to the place of intended operation:
>>
>> (a) The names and addresses of the owners and operators.
>>
>> (b) The size of the balloon or the size and weight of the kite.
>>
>> (c) The location of the operation.
>>
>> (d) The height above the surface of the earth at which the balloon or
>> kite is to be operated.
>>
>> (e) The date, time, and duration of the operation.
>>
>> § 101.17 Lighting and marking requirements.
>> (a) No person may operate a moored balloon or kite, between sunset and
>> sunrise unless the balloon or kite, and its mooring lines, are lighted so
>> as to give a visual warning equal to that required for obstructions to
>> air navigation in the FAA publication “Obstruction Marking and Lighting”.
>>
>> (b) No person may operate a moored balloon or kite between sunrise and
>> sunset unless its mooring lines have colored pennants or streamers
>> attached at not more than 50 foot intervals beginning at 150 feet above
>> the surface of the earth and visible for at least one mile. "

[Skylune]

I did some web searches, and discovered the record for the highest a kite
has flown: over 30,000 feet. (According to the link, that was actually a
series of 8 connected kites). Here is the what the article said:

What's the highest a kite has ever flown? . . . The world record for kite
height was set in 1919 by the German Weather Bureau, when a series of
eight kites was lofted to an altitude of 31,955 feet (9740 meters). During
the retrieval of the kites, the line broke when the tension reached 145
kilograms (319 pounds).

The single-kite record is 12,471 feet (3801 meters) by the US
Meteorological Service in 1896.

In both cases, the kites were flown as part of weather observation
programs. Kites were used for many years in meteorology, but today
balloons, airplanes, and satellites have replaced them, and the kite
altitude records still stand.

Go fly a kite!
http://www.sct.gu.edu.au/~anthony/kites/
http://www.aka.kite.org/
< BR>The history of kites in meteorology:
http://www.total.net/~kite/meteor.html

(E-zine: THE LEARNING KINGDOM http://www.tlk-lists.com/join/

[Dylan Smith]

On 2006-04-19, Skylune > wrote:
> Section 4 clearly says no kite flying within 5 miles. The 500' limitation
> seems to be in effect everywhere. No?

It does not say that at all - you dropped paragraph (b) which gives
exceptions to that rule. When reading the FARs, you have to read the
WHOLE paragraph, not just bits of it - or you'll get the wrong idea.

It's not uncommon that private pilot candidates get busted on the
checkride for forgetting to read the WHOLE paragraph, so you're not
alone in doing this.

--
Yes, the Reply-To email address is valid.
Oolite-Linux: an Elite tribute: http://oolite-linux.berlios.de

[Dylan Smith]

On 2006-04-19, Jim Logajan > wrote:
> Oddly enough, I can find no regulations specifically mentioning RC planes.
> The obvious regs, such as for ultralight vehicles, specifically state that
> they are applicable only to manned vehicles.

They may be regulated elsewhere. (Over here, for example, the CAA
doesn't regulate gliders - glider regulation is deferred to the British
Gliding Association instead). It may be similar in the US with RC
models.

--
Yes, the Reply-To email address is valid.
Oolite-Linux: an Elite tribute: http://oolite-linux.berlios.de

[Dylan Smith]

On 2006-04-19, Skylune > wrote:
> I did some web searches, and discovered the record for the highest a kite
> has flown: over 30,000 feet. (According to the link, that was actually a
> series of 8 connected kites). Here is the what the article said:

Going off on a commplete tangent (I like doing that), our main method of
launching gliders here is really a big, manned kite (the glider being
the kite of course). The principle behind winch launching a glider isn't
that different from getting a kite airborne by reeling the line in (or
running backwards a little way) to give it some airspeed. Of course, we
don't have a guy reeling in the winch wire at the other end, but a 4.2
litre Jaguar engine! (And the video is at
http://www.alioth.net/Video/Winch-launch.mp4 if you wanna see how it
works)

--
Yes, the Reply-To email address is valid.
Oolite-Linux: an Elite tribute: http://oolite-linux.berlios.de

[Morgans]

"Mike Schumann" > wrote

> We had Green Giant kites that we got by sending in vegetable can labels.

Yep, that (Green Giant) and many box kites were my favorites. I don't
remember how many rolls of string I had up on those, but it was many. The
box kite had to have a lot of wind, but if there was too much, it would
break the string.
--
Jim in NC

[Dana M. Hague]

On Tue, 18 Apr 2006 17:11:00 -0500, "Jim Macklin"
> wrote:

>§ 101.13 Operating limitations.
>(a) Except as provided in paragraph (b) of this section, no
>person may operate a moored balloon or kite...
> <snip>

You guys have all missed the essential part; see 101.1(a)(2), which
says the rest of 101 applies to:
"Except as provided for in §101.7, any kite that weighs more than 5
pounds and is intended to be flown at the end of a rope or cable."

So except for 101.7, which says that " No person may operate any
moored balloon, kite, unmanned rocket, or unmanned free balloon in a
manner that creates a hazard to other persons, or their property,"
there are NO specific restrictions on kits weighing less than 5 lbs...
you can legally fly it anywhere, anytime, any altitude.

Full text at http://tinyurl.com/l7vcr .

R/C models: AFAIK there are no FAA regulations. The AMA (Academy of
Model Aeronautics, the national aeromodelling organization) has a
voluntary safety code that says, among other things, "I will not fly
my model aircraft higher than approximately 400 feet above ground
level, when within three (3) miles of an airport without notifying
the airport operator. I will yield the right-of-way and avoid flying
in the proximity of full-scale aircraft, utilizing a spotter when
appropriate." R/C models regularly fly from my local airport (N04)
along with GA, ultralights, paragliders, you name it.

-Dana
--
--
If replying by email, please make the obvious changes.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Never practice proctology on a porcupine.

[Chris W]

Skylune wrote:

><<
>
>The kite caused the helo to crash???? Do you have an NTSB number or date?
> I'd love to read about that one.
>
>
Apparently you missed those important 2 letters "RC" as in Remote
Control, in front of helicopter. So no NTSB report just an unhappy kid
with a kite that is no more and a very annoyed RC helicopter pilot, with
a lot of work to do and a lot of money to spend before he will fly again.

--
Chris W
KE5GIX

Gift Giving Made Easy
Get the gifts you want &
give the gifts they want
One stop wish list for any gift,
from anywhere, for any occasion!
http://thewishzone.com

[Skylune]

by Dana M. Hague <d(dash)m(dash)hague(at)comcast(dot)net> Apr 19, 2006 at
09:53 PM


On Tue, 18 Apr 2006 17:11:00 -0500, "Jim Macklin"
> wrote:

>§ 101.13 Operating limitations.
>(a) Except as provided in paragraph (b) of this section, no
>person may operate a moored balloon or kite...
> <snip>

You guys have all missed the essential part; see 101.1(a)(2), which
says the rest of 101 applies to:
"Except as provided for in §101.7, any kite that weighs more than 5
pounds and is intended to be flown at the end of a rope or cable."

So except for 101.7, which says that " No person may operate any
moored balloon, kite, unmanned rocket, or unmanned free balloon in a
manner that creates a hazard to other persons, or their property,"
there are NO specific restrictions on kits weighing less than 5 lbs...
you can legally fly it anywhere, anytime, any altitude.

Full text at http://tinyurl.com/l7vcr

[john h]

Kids don't read FARs They don't look crossing the street either.
I saw a C150 hit a kit string one time. The string sawed a 3" gash in the
cowlening then wound up around the front hut and broke the front oil seal
Oil everywhere. Soiled pants Pilot.
Kids took off when kite was hit. Since this years ago, no one called FAA,
cops, or their lawyer. owner just fixed aircraft and we put some signs out
at the runway ends. Took some kids for rides and talked to them too. never
happened agin.


"Dylan Smith" > wrote in message
...
> On 2006-04-18, Skylune > wrote:
> > I saw a few kids flying kites over the weekend. It occurred to me:
What
> > if they were flying the kites real high in the vicinity of GA airports?
I
> > don't think there are any laws about kite flying off airport property.
>
> Yes there are - there is a section in the FARs covering kite flying. Of
> course, most kite flyers have never heard of 14 CFR in the first place.
>
> --
> Dylan Smith, Port St Mary, Isle of Man
> Flying: http://www.dylansmith.net
> Oolite-Linux: an Elite tribute: http://oolite-linux.berlios.de
> Frontier Elite Universe: http://www.alioth.net