Grob 102 Wanted

[uncletrees]

Anybody out there got a low time Grob 102 hiding somewhere they would
like to sell?

[Fred]

How about a Speed Astir? Very similar to the 102, but with flaps and
retractable L/G. Excellent XC ship in good condition with good trailer
and towout gear. Decent price. Call Fred or Tony at Soar Minden, 1
800 345 7627. Fred

uncletrees wrote:
> Anybody out there got a low time Grob 102 hiding somewhere they would
> like to sell?

[Edward Winchester]

At 05:12 23 April 2006, Fred wrote:
I'm glad somebody brought this up. I've just gotten
back into soaring after a 15 year hiatus. CFI A&G,
Commercial A&G, 145 flights, all in G103 since I started
back last fall, except for last 3 in 102. I've got
the itch to get my own glider _bad_. I have noticed
a few attractive ads for 104s, seem to be reasonably
equipped, at what seems to be a reasonable price.
Guys in the club say 'Don't do it. All the problems
of flaps but no performance gain. Wait until you find
a deal on a good German glider.' What's the group
concensus?

BTW, I saw a 102 on Wings&Wheels, down on page 4, for
18.5K.

Thanks in advance,
Ed


>How about a Speed Astir? Very similar to the 102,
>but with flaps and
>retractable L/G. Excellent XC ship in good condition
>with good trailer
>and towout gear. Decent price. Call Fred or Tony
>at Soar Minden, 1
>800 345 7627. Fred
>
>uncletrees wrote:
>> Anybody out there got a low time Grob 102 hiding somewhere
>>they would
>> like to sell?
>
>

[toad]

The G104 does not seem to have a good reputation. The flaps were
created with a "hinge" being a flexible top surface, very experimental
and the results were not good. Also the 104 is only good for small
pilots. The 102, especially the later G102 Std III version are great
gliders.

As a new (effectively) glider pilot, buy something well known, with
decent perfromance and an easy to rig trailer, and fly alot !

Todd Smith
Grob 102 Std III
3S

[Udo Rumpf]

Hi Todd,
I am interested to find out more about it
as it relates to the flex seal. I know about the cam mechanics
but I have no Idea how it played out in the past.
The Eppler airfoil was not working as well as one was hoping for
but it got resolve some time ago with turbulator on the top surface.
Maybe that was the problem, the flex seal got a bad wrap due to the glider
not performing a swell as it should have.


Regards
Udo


"toad" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> The G104 does not seem to have a good reputation. The flaps were
> created with a "hinge" being a flexible top surface, very experimental
> and the results were not good. Also the 104 is only good for small
> pilots. The 102, especially the later G102 Std III version are great
> gliders.
>
> As a new (effectively) glider pilot, buy something well known, with
> decent perfromance and an easy to rig trailer, and fly alot !
>
> Todd Smith
> Grob 102 Std III
> 3S
>

[Bob Whelan]

Edward Winchester wrote:
> At 05:12 23 April 2006, Fred wrote:
> I'm glad somebody brought this up. I've just gotten
> back into soaring after a 15 year hiatus. CFI A&G,
> Commercial A&G, 145 flights, all in G103 since I started
> back last fall, except for last 3 in 102. I've got
> the itch to get my own glider _bad_. I have noticed
> a few attractive ads for 104s, seem to be reasonably
> equipped, at what seems to be a reasonable price.
> Guys in the club say 'Don't do it. All the problems
> of flaps but no performance gain. Wait until you find
> a deal on a good German glider.' What's the group
> concensus?

WRT "All the problems of flaps but no performance gain," insert here a
dry chuckle. Having owned nothing but flapped gliders since 1975 (after
transitioning from a 1-26, with <200 hours logged time), I'm all ears
regarding flaps' implicit endemic problems. Mine have proved
trouble-free in >2400 hours logged time.

WRT "Wait until you find a deal on a good German glider," I suppose the
comment could be offered/taken in a number of ways.

1) Grobs in general tended to be leave the factory with a lot of
aluminum castings (read: brittle, weak) in their control systems, as
their AD history shows. Poor design choice on the factory's part.
Additionally, Grob gliders in general were/are sneered at from a
craftsmanship perspective by many Germans and Americans. If this is
what your club buddies are referring to, there are elements of truth in
their aspersions. OTOH, Grobs have no history of coming apart in the
air, so looks/emotion more than composite strength/pilot safety would
appear to he the implicit issues behind the aspersions.

2) If the comment reflects unthinking bias FOR "good German glass" and
AGAINST "everything else that isn't," then give it all the respect it
deserves, wich IMHO is darned little.

My advice is know yourself, know your flying skills, define your soaring
mission, and find the least expensive/best-all-around ship/trailer that
will help you meet your personal goals. If you buy a decent used glider
at a fair price, you'll not lose your shirt come sale time. If you buy
a "non mainstream ship" (as have I several times), you'll be selling
into the same non-mainstream pool come sale time, which may make the
glider less economically liquid. Whether that's a problem depends on
your perspective.

Good luck, and have fun!!!

Regards,
Bob Whelan

[toad]

The problem with the flex seal seems to have been more of a practical
nature than a performance one. I heard a story of somebody's wing
sitting ( for some time I believe) in the delected position and
freezing in that position !

It seems to me just one of those brilliant (in theory) engineering
designs that had a fatal flaw, that it was impossible to implement
well.

Todd

[Greg Arnold]

toad wrote:
> The problem with the flex seal seems to have been more of a practical
> nature than a performance one. I heard a story of somebody's wing
> sitting ( for some time I believe) in the delected position and
> freezing in that position !
>
> It seems to me just one of those brilliant (in theory) engineering
> designs that had a fatal flaw, that it was impossible to implement
> well.
>
> Todd
>

There was a Grob 104 at our field, and the flexible seal seemed to work
well. It was in excellent condition after 27 years.

[[email protected]]

<snip> Grobs have no history of coming apart in the air </snip>

Didn't a 2-seat Grob have its fuse snap in two on a low inverted pass a
few years ago?

[Charles Yeates]

>OTOH, Grobs have no history of coming apart in the air,

Hmmm -- true, generally, but at Waikerie, SA, a long time ago, a cast
elevator horn broke on a Grob Twin or 103 during take off and Maurie
Bradney was badly injured in the ensuing release / crash. So your
comment about the weakness of cast control parts is valid.

[Edward Winchester]

At 17:48 24 April 2006, Jono Richards wrote:
>>
>>As a new (effectively) glider pilot, buy something
>>well known, with
>>decent perfromance and an easy to rig trailer, and
>>fly alot !
>>
>
>I agree - Grobs are great, no doubt about it - but
>why not get something that will last you a bit longer.
>
>If I was in your shoes there are many gliders I would
>be thinking of, not just good well known German ones.
>I am a firm believer that the LAK12 is well worth a
>look at.
>
>Fantastic performance, flapped and good trailers -
>should have no trouble converting to it either.
>
>Down side - heavy on the rigging side and big wings
>mean a little more care needed takeoff/landing.
>
>But the biggest plus side - 12k for it! You get a lot
>of glider for the buck there, and it is something that
>you quite possibly will never grow out of.
>
>Thats my rant done...
>
>JR
>

JR, thanks for that rant. You say that the LAK-12
trailers are nice, but to me they look huge, and they
are tube type, which I wouldn't favor. And you say
12K, that's in pounds, I presume?

OK, now we're getting down to my real question. What
decent gliders are bargains? I was looking into a
LAK-12, but was told that if I got one of those, I'd
lose all my friends, because the wings are so heavy.
There are at least 3 or 4 of those available below
$20k, and some of them are even relatively nearby.
Also a Jantar 2B, but it's out west. A couple of
Jantar Stds. 3 or 4 Grob 104s. Even a Grob 102, which
I've been flying lately, and like. For just a little
more a couple of Kestrel 19m. From what I read, I
could fly any of these. I've been warned away from
the first-generation glass ships, like the Std. Cirrus,
Mini Nimbus and the like. I don't see myself being
a competitor, at least not past the sport class, and
that in a couple of years. I just want to learn something
about XC, get my badges, and have fun.

I could have bought a very nice Ka6 cheap, but found
that I don't fit in that, no way. A 1-26 was recommended,
and I've flown and like them, but I'm looking higher.

Are there some types I'm overlooking?

TIA,
Ed

[[email protected]]

Edward Winchester wrote:

> OK, now we're getting down to my real question. What
> decent gliders are bargains? I was looking into a
> LAK-12, but was told that if I got one of those, I'd
> lose all my friends, because the wings are so heavy.
> There are at least 3 or 4 of those available below
> $20k, and some of them are even relatively nearby.
> Also a Jantar 2B, but it's out west. A couple of
> Jantar Stds. 3 or 4 Grob 104s. Even a Grob 102, which
> I've been flying lately, and like. For just a little
> more a couple of Kestrel 19m. From what I read, I
> could fly any of these. I've been warned away from
> the first-generation glass ships, like the Std. Cirrus,
> Mini Nimbus and the like. I don't see myself being
> a competitor, at least not past the sport class, and
> that in a couple of years. I just want to learn something
> about XC, get my badges, and have fun.
>
> I could have bought a very nice Ka6 cheap, but found
> that I don't fit in that, no way. A 1-26 was recommended,
> and I've flown and like them, but I'm looking higher.
>
> Are there some types I'm overlooking?

I asked this question a while back, and it was pointed out to me that
the Schweitzer 1-35s and 1-34s are usually available for about $15K. If
you are willing to deal with kit-built planes, there are HP-14s for
about $10K, and HP-11s for about $6K.

All these are metal ships, which should cut down the maintenance
requirements nicely.

Johan Larson

[Guy Acheson]

I have owned a Grob 104 Speed Astir for many years.
There is another on my field that has been flying
for the last 12 years. They are very good, solid,
predictable, simple planes that have excellent flight
qualities. The flexible flap hinge has never been
a problem. The plane was equal to a discus up to 75
knots (dry). They are about the best value you can
have for the dollar. I had a one man rigging Minden
Fab trailer and it was only 15 minutes to rig the plane
by myself.

Those that have not had experience with that plane
should not be commenting.

Guy Acheson

[Wayne Paul]

> wrote in message
ups.com...
>
>
> I asked this question a while back, and it was pointed out to me that
> the Schweitzer 1-35s and 1-34s are usually available for about $15K. If
> you are willing to deal with kit-built planes, there are HP-14s for
> about $10K, and HP-11s for about $6K.
>
> All these are metal ships, which should cut down the maintenance
> requirements nicely.
>
> Johan Larson
>

For a complete list of the Schreder designs that are currently on the market
can be seen at
http://www.soaridaho.com/Schreder/Trading_Post/The_Trading_Post.html

Wayne
HP-14 N990 "6F"
http://www.soaridaho.com/Schreder/HP-14/N990/N990.html

[[email protected]]

Wayne Paul wrote:

>
> For a complete list of the Schreder designs that are currently on the market
> can be seen at
> http://www.soaridaho.com/Schreder/Trading_Post/The_Trading_Post.html

How complete is "complete"?

Johan Larson

[Wayne Paul]

> wrote in message
ups.com...
>
> Wayne Paul wrote:
>
> >
> > A complete list of the Schreder designs that are currently on the market
> > can be seen at
> > http://www.soaridaho.com/Schreder/Trading_Post/The_Trading_Post.html
>
> How complete is "complete"?
>
> Johan Larson
>

The Yahoo hp-gliders new group currently has over 300 members.
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hp-gliders) They do a good job keeping me
informed when Schreder sailplane are for sale. In addition I review the
"Wings and Wheels" and "Soaring" want ads to see if I have missed any. (I
am sure there are some that change hands without my knowledge.)

Wayne
HP-14 N990 "6F"
http://www.soaridaho.com/Schreder

[Waduino]

There are also some Libelles out there for about the same $ as the 104. They
might also be worth a look. Easy to rig.
Wad.
---
"Edward Winchester" > wrote in
message ...
> At 17:48 24 April 2006, Jono Richards wrote:
>>>
>>>As a new (effectively) glider pilot, buy something
>>>well known, with
>>>decent perfromance and an easy to rig trailer, and
>>>fly alot !
>>>
>>
>>I agree - Grobs are great, no doubt about it - but
>>why not get something that will last you a bit longer.
>>
>>If I was in your shoes there are many gliders I would
>>be thinking of, not just good well known German ones.
>>I am a firm believer that the LAK12 is well worth a
>>look at.
>>
>>Fantastic performance, flapped and good trailers -
>>should have no trouble converting to it either.
>>
>>Down side - heavy on the rigging side and big wings
>>mean a little more care needed takeoff/landing.
>>
>>But the biggest plus side - 12k for it! You get a lot
>>of glider for the buck there, and it is something that
>>you quite possibly will never grow out of.
>>
>>Thats my rant done...
>>
>>JR
>>
>
> JR, thanks for that rant. You say that the LAK-12
> trailers are nice, but to me they look huge, and they
> are tube type, which I wouldn't favor. And you say
> 12K, that's in pounds, I presume?
>
> OK, now we're getting down to my real question. What
> decent gliders are bargains? I was looking into a
> LAK-12, but was told that if I got one of those, I'd
> lose all my friends, because the wings are so heavy.
> There are at least 3 or 4 of those available below
> $20k, and some of them are even relatively nearby.
> Also a Jantar 2B, but it's out west. A couple of
> Jantar Stds. 3 or 4 Grob 104s. Even a Grob 102, which
> I've been flying lately, and like. For just a little
> more a couple of Kestrel 19m. From what I read, I
> could fly any of these. I've been warned away from
> the first-generation glass ships, like the Std. Cirrus,
> Mini Nimbus and the like. I don't see myself being
> a competitor, at least not past the sport class, and
> that in a couple of years. I just want to learn something
> about XC, get my badges, and have fun.
>
> I could have bought a very nice Ka6 cheap, but found
> that I don't fit in that, no way. A 1-26 was recommended,
> and I've flown and like them, but I'm looking higher.
>
> Are there some types I'm overlooking?
>
> TIA,
> Ed
>
>

[Wallace Berry]

In article >,
Guy Acheson > wrote:

> I have owned a Grob 104 Speed Astir for many years.
> There is another on my field that has been flying
> for the last 12 years. They are very good, solid,
> predictable, simple planes that have excellent flight
> qualities. The flexible flap hinge has never been
> a problem. The plane was equal to a discus up to 75
> knots (dry). They are about the best value you can
> have for the dollar. I had a one man rigging Minden
> Fab trailer and it was only 15 minutes to rig the plane
> by myself.
>
> Those that have not had experience with that plane
> should not be commenting.
>
> Guy Acheson
>
>
>

I would agree that the Speed Astir (or Speed Disaster as some wags would
have it) is fairly good price/performance. I have a couple of flights in
OE that was for sale recently on the Wings&Wheels site. In fact, those
were my first flights in a glass single seater. I'd had maybe 50 hours
in the Twin Grob. The fact that both the Speed and I survived is proof
that it is an easy ship to fly.

No doubt about it being a solid ship. Heavily built. Very durable Grob
finish. Reasonably good handling. Excellent divebrakes. Accelerates like
it has jets when the flaps come up. Seemed to climb reasonably well,
considering the weight of the ship. I have always thought the flexible
flap hinge was a neat idea (but maybe a solution in search of a
problem), no bothersome mylar seals anyway. The wings are stiff so it's
a bumpy ride in rough air. Wings are a bit heavy, but no worse than a
LS-3. One man rigger would be a big plus. My biggest complaint is that
it can be hard to work on the instruments with the panel back under the
fixed forward section of the canopy. The cockpit, while relatively
roomy, is narrow at the hips due to the control system tunnels on either
side of the seat. One must be careful when the rear section of the
canopy is open. It will focus sunlight on the headrest and burn holes in
it.

With a good trailer, a Speed would be a contender for an affordable
glass ship. Price and trailer being equal, I'd rather have a PIK though.

Probably been mentioned before, but an LS-1, the F model being greatly
prized, are very fine ships (what LS isn't?).

[An Empty Pocket]

"Guy Acheson" > said:
> have for the dollar. I had a one man rigging Minden
> Fab trailer and it was only 15 minutes to rig the plane
> by myself.
>

Is that true?, i´ve seen many times people rigging Grobs 102 (and i think
they have to be "a flap" easier to rig that the 104) and it use to be a
mess, until now i thought Grob was guilty for it, not the barbarian riggers,
and for me (and i think i´m not the only one) being able to rig alone the
ship quickly is the difference between flying or not flying, buying or not
buying.

[[email protected]]

An Empty Pocket schrieb:

> "Guy Acheson" > said:
> > have for the dollar. I had a one man rigging Minden
> > Fab trailer and it was only 15 minutes to rig the plane
> > by myself.
> >
>
> Is that true?, i´ve seen many times people rigging Grobs 102 (and i think
> they have to be "a flap" easier to rig that the 104) and it use to be a
> mess, until now i thought Grob was guilty for it, not the barbarian riggers,
> and for me (and i think i´m not the only one) being able to rig alone the
> ship quickly is the difference between flying or not flying, buying or not
> buying.

I owned an G102 (Astir CS77) for several years. How long it takes to
rigg an Astir, depends on two aspects
- the glider, not every G102 is the same. Some are easier to rigg some
are a real pain. My CS77 was very easy to rigg, but i always had
problems getting the G102 of our Club together
- it depends on wheter you know what you are doing. With 3 person and a
wingstand it can be done in a few minutes
Ruediger

[Papa3]

wrote:
> An Empty Pocket schrieb:
>
> > "Guy Acheson" > said:
> > > have for the dollar. I had a one man rigging Minden
> > > Fab trailer and it was only 15 minutes to rig the plane
> > > by myself.
> > >
> >
> > Is that true?, i´ve seen many times people rigging Grobs 102 (and i think
> > they have to be "a flap" easier to rig that the 104) and it use to be a
> > mess, until now i thought Grob was guilty for it, not the barbarian riggers,
> > and for me (and i think i´m not the only one) being able to rig alonethe
> > ship quickly is the difference between flying or not flying, buying or not
> > buying.
>
> I owned an G102 (Astir CS77) for several years. How long it takes to
> rigg an Astir, depends on two aspects
> - the glider, not every G102 is the same. Some are easier to rigg some
> are a real pain. My CS77 was very easy to rigg, but i always had
> problems getting the G102 of our Club together
> - it depends on wheter you know what you are doing. With 3 person and a
> wingstand it can be done in a few minutes
> Ruediger

Absolutely true on both counts.

I owned and flew an Astir CS for about 5 years and many hundreds of
hours. In general, the rigging secret is to have the fuselage
dead-vertical in the main dolly and to keep it that way when putting on
the second wing. The big problem was the ball/socket arangement on the
tip of the spars; that could be a hopeless situation for the
un-initiated. However, once I got the hang of it, I could easily beat
the Schleicher and Rolladen-Schneider guys from closed trailer to
assembled glider.

HOWEVER, I was personally involved in trying to assemble several 102s
and at least one 104 that WOULD NOT GO TOGETHER. There are a lot of
variables on these ships, and I think the drag spar fittings/collars
are a big issue. They are very sensitive to proper gap adjustment,
and it pays to do a very careful inspection with feeler guages and a
note-pad handy. You'll see that both carry-throughs are threaded on
both sides, and there are a lot of ways for it to be mis-rigged. If
you are having trouble regularly, I'd sit down and start making some
very careful measurements. You'll probably find that something
somewhere is out of square.

For this reason (ie. "technique intensive" rigging process), I haven't
been a big fan of a Grob for a club setting where it will be
rigged/de-rigged by many different people (fine if it will mostly be
left assembled in a hangar). But, for private ownership, I think
they're a good value.

Erik Mann (P3)
Formerly Astir CS77 N1122S

[LOV2AV8]

A delightful ship that I have owned for the past two years is the
Russia AC-4C. It is unbelieveably easy to rig and it always draws an
audience as I rig it myself. I also get comments as I push it to the
line with only my thumbs on the verticle fin and only using a wing
wheel. It is roomy, a joy to fly with light controls and keeps up with
alot of your high performance ships(only till 60 knots). If you want
an easy to rig, newer trailer and something for sports class, you'd be
happy with one. Mine's a 98 with 130hrs on it now, only 35 hrs when I
bought it two years ago. Good review by Chad Moore on the SSA site
under magazine, dick johnson articles.

Good Luck. "AV8"