The effects of Ethanol on...

[ventus2]

Not wanting to restart the previous discussion on how ethanol is made and
how much is in which fuel, available where, the question I am interested in
is; does anyone know what effects ethanol will have on:
tanks - metal / composite
fuel systems - tubing/electric pumps/carbys
Engine - serviceability issues/foreseeable maintenance conerns

The EAA is obviously concerned about ethanol in aviation fuel otherwise they
would not have fought the introduction(according to the EAA mag). This is
defintiely a concern for all aviators, not just the US.

If there is going to be 'no option' in the future (other than running on
Avgas or Diesel), then we need to start educating the masses on what effects
it will have, especially the home maintainers.

I understand that ethanol will degrade some resins, which could throw a
spanner in the works for the wet wings like the Jabiru. Though it could just
as likely eat away at sloshing compounds etc.

Cheers
Chris

[Denny]

Ethanol is acidic and corrosive... It is death to aircraft rubber fuel
tanks, many kinds of rubber seals, corrodes many metals, and is a bad
idea all around... They can't make ethanol fast enough so they will
resort to methanol, which is even more nasty...

But, don't let me stand in your way of knowledge... Do a search on
ethanol + corrosion and find out what I don't know...
cheers ... denny

[Tater Schuld]

seems odd, isn't ethanol/methanol the main ingredient in gas deicer?

not a pilot or homebuilder, so I can't comment on the original post.

I remember some time ago during the 70's gas crunch there was talk of
selling straight ethanol for fuel. issues then were that a lot of plastics
(maybe rubbers too?) couldn't handle it.

what metals cant handle ethanol? not the water absorbed by ethanol, but
ethanol itself?

in the future I'll be looking into ethanol for fuel for small gas engines,
and work my way up to cars and such, so it will be a moot point.
"Denny" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Ethanol is acidic and corrosive... It is death to aircraft rubber fuel
> tanks, many kinds of rubber seals, corrodes many metals, and is a bad
> idea all around... They can't make ethanol fast enough so they will
> resort to methanol, which is even more nasty...
>
> But, don't let me stand in your way of knowledge... Do a search on
> ethanol + corrosion and find out what I don't know...
> cheers ... denny
>

[Gig 601XL Builder]

AOPA Pilot has a pretty good story on 100LL and the issues surrounding
replacements for it in the issue I got yesterday. I only got about half way
through it but it had some info I didn't know.



"Tater Schuld" > wrote in message
...
> seems odd, isn't ethanol/methanol the main ingredient in gas deicer?
>
> not a pilot or homebuilder, so I can't comment on the original post.
>
> I remember some time ago during the 70's gas crunch there was talk of
> selling straight ethanol for fuel. issues then were that a lot of plastics
> (maybe rubbers too?) couldn't handle it.
>
> what metals cant handle ethanol? not the water absorbed by ethanol, but
> ethanol itself?
>
> in the future I'll be looking into ethanol for fuel for small gas engines,
> and work my way up to cars and such, so it will be a moot point.
> "Denny" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
>> Ethanol is acidic and corrosive... It is death to aircraft rubber fuel
>> tanks, many kinds of rubber seals, corrodes many metals, and is a bad
>> idea all around... They can't make ethanol fast enough so they will
>> resort to methanol, which is even more nasty...
>>
>> But, don't let me stand in your way of knowledge... Do a search on
>> ethanol + corrosion and find out what I don't know...
>> cheers ... denny
>>
>
>

[Peter Dohm]

"ventus2" > wrote in message
...
> Not wanting to restart the previous discussion on how ethanol is made and
> how much is in which fuel, available where, the question I am interested
in
> is; does anyone know what effects ethanol will have on:
> tanks - metal / composite
> fuel systems - tubing/electric pumps/carbys
> Engine - serviceability issues/foreseeable maintenance conerns
>
> The EAA is obviously concerned about ethanol in aviation fuel otherwise
they
> would not have fought the introduction(according to the EAA mag). This is
> defintiely a concern for all aviators, not just the US.
>
> If there is going to be 'no option' in the future (other than running on
> Avgas or Diesel), then we need to start educating the masses on what
effects
> it will have, especially the home maintainers.
>
> I understand that ethanol will degrade some resins, which could throw a
> spanner in the works for the wet wings like the Jabiru. Though it could
just
> as likely eat away at sloshing compounds etc.
>
> Cheers
> Chris
>
>
I am not really sure whether or not I want to either, because I believe that
it really is four issues in one. I am going to list all four; but I
strongly believe that the third and fourth are the most important:
1) Ethanol and Methanol, as well as other "oxigenators", when used in
high concentrations, affect different materials in different ways than
"pure" gasoline manufactured in accordance with the appropriate
specification. That's a lot of mumbo-jumbo to say that they are chemically
different, and I am not a chemist either...
2) Ethanol and Methanol are hydroscopic. The most obvious is that you
can not drain water out of the fuel. The good new is that a small amount of
water in the blended fuel won't cause a complete loss of power, although it
will cause a power reduction. A small amount of alcohol, or a large amount
of blended fuel, can also be added to absorb the last traces of water which
might be present after sumping the tanks. I believe that is how "Prist"
works, and I already know that it is not approved for gasoline powered
aircraft engines.
3) According to the EAA web site, the "autofuel" STC permits the use of
fuel conforming to ASTM Specification D-4814 and/or D-439. Oxigenated fuels
and do not conform. Therefore, I presume, in order for oxigeated fuels to
be approved, the entire STC certification program would have to be
duplicated with oxigenated fuels. That might be required for each
"oxigenate".
For information regarding the current STC, see:
http://www.eaa.org/education/fuel/stc.html
4) Fuel is ordinarily taxed "at the pump" based on where it is purchased;
so that, even though there is no such thing as untaxed fuel, it is possible
to pay the taxes into the wrong account. Therefore, if you buy gasoline at
your local marina or automotive filling station, and then truck it to the
airport for your airplane, you are probably adding the wrong kind of fuel to
the debate over user fees!

The issue not mentioned above, because it is not part of the alcohol issue,
is that the original purpose of the STC program was to make 80 octane fuel
available to all aircraft operators. Engines operated on higher octane fuel
than that which is required run hotter, require more maintenance, and are
more subject to fouling. That is not a good combination, so there was a
clear need which still exists.

Peter

[clare at snyder.on.ca]

On Fri, 28 Apr 2006 20:46:28 +1000, "ventus2" >
wrote:

>Not wanting to restart the previous discussion on how ethanol is made and
>how much is in which fuel, available where, the question I am interested in
>is; does anyone know what effects ethanol will have on:
>tanks - metal / composite
>fuel systems - tubing/electric pumps/carbys
>Engine - serviceability issues/foreseeable maintenance conerns
>
>The EAA is obviously concerned about ethanol in aviation fuel otherwise they
>would not have fought the introduction(according to the EAA mag). This is
>defintiely a concern for all aviators, not just the US.
>
>If there is going to be 'no option' in the future (other than running on
>Avgas or Diesel), then we need to start educating the masses on what effects
>it will have, especially the home maintainers.
>
>I understand that ethanol will degrade some resins, which could throw a
>spanner in the works for the wet wings like the Jabiru. Though it could just
>as likely eat away at sloshing compounds etc.
>
>Cheers
>Chris
>

It also has a high vapour pressure, making vapour lock at altitude a
serious risk.

*** Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com ***

[[email protected]]

Tater Schuld wrote:
> seems odd, isn't ethanol/methanol the main ingredient in gas deicer?

Yes. But you don't fill your tank with 85% ethanol and 15% gasoline.
Just a few ounces of ethanol every now and then to emulsify any water,
if you think you might have some. At those very low concentrations
ethanol won't be a problem. However 85% is a whole nuther issue.

Regards,

-Doug

[Andy Asberry]

On Fri, 28 Apr 2006 20:46:28 +1000, "ventus2" >
wrote:

>Not wanting to restart the previous discussion on how ethanol is made and
>how much is in which fuel, available where, the question I am interested in
>is; does anyone know what effects ethanol will have on:
>tanks - metal / composite
>fuel systems - tubing/electric pumps/carbys
>Engine - serviceability issues/foreseeable maintenance conerns
>
>The EAA is obviously concerned about ethanol in aviation fuel otherwise they
>would not have fought the introduction(according to the EAA mag). This is
>defintiely a concern for all aviators, not just the US.
>
>If there is going to be 'no option' in the future (other than running on
>Avgas or Diesel), then we need to start educating the masses on what effects
>it will have, especially the home maintainers.
>
>I understand that ethanol will degrade some resins, which could throw a
>spanner in the works for the wet wings like the Jabiru. Though it could just
>as likely eat away at sloshing compounds etc.
>
>Cheers
>Chris
>

This won't work (it will but would be too costly) with E-85 but
probably will with 10% ethanol. Use Ron's ethanol test...add a gallon
of water to 10 gallons of 10%, shake, drain off 2 gallons of
water/ethanol mix, go fly. Other than the aggravation, fuel cost is
increased 11%.

--Andy Asberry recommends NewsGuy--

[Bryan Martin]

Andy Asberry wrote:
> On Fri, 28 Apr 2006 20:46:28 +1000, "ventus2" >
> wrote:
>
>
>
> This won't work (it will but would be too costly) with E-85 but
> probably will with 10% ethanol. Use Ron's ethanol test...add a gallon
> of water to 10 gallons of 10%, shake, drain off 2 gallons of
> water/ethanol mix, go fly. Other than the aggravation, fuel cost is
> increased 11%.
>
> --Andy Asberry recommends NewsGuy--

And the octane rating of the fuel is reduced in the process.

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

<clare at snyder.on.ca> wrote in message
...
.... >
> It also has a high vapour pressure, making vapour lock at altitude a
> serious risk.
>


Actually, the vapor pressure with ethanol is lower than gasoline - the
problem is with gasoline /ethanol blends - the vapor pressure of the mixture
tends to peak at about 10% ethanol. The problem then is that if you get a
fair ammount of ethanol in your tank, add some straight gasoline, then the
vapor pressure of the mixture will be higher than either on it's own. A real
problem if you want to build a "flex fuel" control system that will run on
anything from gasoline to E85...

--
Geoff
The Sea Hawk at Wow Way d0t Com
remove spaces and make the obvious substitutions to reply by mail
When immigration is outlawed, only outlaws will immigrate.

[Peter Dohm]

"Bryan Martin" > wrote in message
...
> Andy Asberry wrote:
> > On Fri, 28 Apr 2006 20:46:28 +1000, "ventus2" >
> > wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > This won't work (it will but would be too costly) with E-85 but
> > probably will with 10% ethanol. Use Ron's ethanol test...add a gallon
> > of water to 10 gallons of 10%, shake, drain off 2 gallons of
> > water/ethanol mix, go fly. Other than the aggravation, fuel cost is
> > increased 11%.
> >
> > --Andy Asberry recommends NewsGuy--
>
> And the octane rating of the fuel is reduced in the process.

Yes; and if you started with high test, it will probably cost 15% more and
may end up with the octane rating of regular. Obviously testing would be
necessary, so (just for giggles) I did a quick web search and the first
portable research octane tester that I turned up was this:
http://www.zeltex.com/portable/101.pdf They offer octane testers for
gasoline, blended gasoline, etc. I have no idea of what the price might be.

However, if your plan is to use the fuel in a type certified aircraft; then
there may still be a problem of certifying the fuel in compliance with the
appropriate ASTM specification--in order for the autofuel STC to be valid.
As an added concern, something I read recently also suggested to my that
there might be a similar problem in the cases of Amateur Built Aircraft
approved for IFR and night operation and equipped with type certified
engines...

Don't get my wrong. I am no fan of alcohol in gasoline, especially as a
mandate. In fact, it makes my mad as Hell! But, this may prove to be more
of an airworthiness issue than a physical problem.

Peter

[Tater Schuld]

> wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> Tater Schuld wrote:
>> seems odd, isn't ethanol/methanol the main ingredient in gas deicer?
>
> Yes. But you don't fill your tank with 85% ethanol and 15% gasoline.
> Just a few ounces of ethanol every now and then to emulsify any water,
> if you think you might have some. At those very low concentrations
> ethanol won't be a problem. However 85% is a whole nuther issue.

ok, so we have people in an uproar about the addition of ethanol, but no
hard facts about what amounts is harmful.

is 10% ok?
20%?

where can I find a breakdown that can show the effects of ethanol in
percentages from 5% to 85%

what do they affect?

[Bryan Martin]

wrote:
> X-No-Archive
> Tater Schuld wrote:
>
> wrote in message
oups.com...
>>
>>>Tater Schuld wrote:
>>>
>>>>seems odd, isn't ethanol/methanol the main ingredient in gas deicer?
>>>
>>>Yes. But you don't fill your tank with 85% ethanol and 15% gasoline.
>>>Just a few ounces of ethanol every now and then to emulsify any water,
>>>if you think you might have some. At those very low concentrations
>>>ethanol won't be a problem. However 85% is a whole nuther issue.
>>
>> ok, so we have people in an uproar about the addition of ethanol, but no
>>hard facts about what amounts is harmful.
>>
>>is 10% ok?
>
>
> You are possibly getting 10% now unless you carefully read the labels
> on the pumps at your (auto) gasoline station. The current US laws
> allow up to 10%, but the filling station pump must be clearly labelled
> as such. Automobile manufacturers have been designing all of their
> gasoline engine vehicles to be perfectly OK with up to 10% for many
> years.
>


I have found ethanol in fuel from stations without the ethanol warning
on the pumps. The only way to be sure is to test for alcohol every time.

[[email protected]]

X-No-Archive
Bryan Martin wrote:

> I have found ethanol in fuel from stations without the ethanol warning
> on the pumps. The only way to be sure is to test for alcohol every time.

They are possibly breaking the law, depending upon how much alcohol is
present. You should report these potential violations to your state
motor vehicle office.

Regards,

-Doug

[JP]

"Peter Dohm" > kirjoitti
.net...
> "Bryan Martin" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Andy Asberry wrote:
>> > On Fri, 28 Apr 2006 20:46:28 +1000, "ventus2" >
>> > wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > This won't work (it will but would be too costly) with E-85 but
>> > probably will with 10% ethanol. Use Ron's ethanol test...add a gallon
>> > of water to 10 gallons of 10%, shake, drain off 2 gallons of
>> > water/ethanol mix, go fly. Other than the aggravation, fuel cost is
>> > increased 11%.
>> >
>> > --Andy Asberry recommends NewsGuy--
>>
>> And the octane rating of the fuel is reduced in the process.
>
> Yes; and if you started with high test, it will probably cost 15% more and
> may end up with the octane rating of regular. Obviously testing would be
> necessary, so (just for giggles) I did a quick web search and the first
> portable research octane tester that I turned up was this:
> http://www.zeltex.com/portable/101.pdf They offer octane testers for
> gasoline, blended gasoline, etc. I have no idea of what the price might
> be.
>
> However, if your plan is to use the fuel in a type certified aircraft;
> then
> there may still be a problem of certifying the fuel in compliance with the
> appropriate ASTM specification--in order for the autofuel STC to be valid.
> As an added concern, something I read recently also suggested to my that
> there might be a similar problem in the cases of Amateur Built Aircraft
> approved for IFR and night operation and equipped with type certified
> engines...
>
> Don't get my wrong. I am no fan of alcohol in gasoline, especially as a
> mandate. In fact, it makes my mad as Hell! But, this may prove to be
> more
> of an airworthiness issue than a physical problem.
>
> Peter


About Zeltex ZX 101C portable octane tester - not cheap!

Some Indonesian price information is available:

US $ 13.500 CIF Jakarta


JP
>
>

[Scott]

Hopefully, there are not too many knee-jerk reactions to ethanol and
some good solid info comes forth. It MUST be able to be used (probably
with some modifications). Back in the 90s there was a group with Van's
RV series airplanes that flew at Oshkosh with 100% ethanol, if I recall.
Brazil has been using high concentrations of ethanol for many years.
I am very interested in learning what can be done to make a safe
transition to ethanol based fuels...because I think it will be coming
soon enough...

Scott


Denny wrote:
> Ethanol is acidic and corrosive... It is death to aircraft rubber fuel
> tanks, many kinds of rubber seals, corrodes many metals, and is a bad
> idea all around... They can't make ethanol fast enough so they will
> resort to methanol, which is even more nasty...
>
> But, don't let me stand in your way of knowledge... Do a search on
> ethanol + corrosion and find out what I don't know...
> cheers ... denny
>

[JP]

Some information about the topic can be found here:

http://www.baylor.edu/bias/index.php?id=110

JP


"Scott" > kirjoitti
...
> Hopefully, there are not too many knee-jerk reactions to ethanol and some
> good solid info comes forth. It MUST be able to be used (probably with
> some modifications). Back in the 90s there was a group with Van's RV
> series airplanes that flew at Oshkosh with 100% ethanol, if I recall.
> Brazil has been using high concentrations of ethanol for many years. I am
> very interested in learning what can be done to make a safe transition to
> ethanol based fuels...because I think it will be coming soon enough...
>
> Scott
>
>
> Denny wrote:
>> Ethanol is acidic and corrosive... It is death to aircraft rubber fuel
>> tanks, many kinds of rubber seals, corrodes many metals, and is a bad
>> idea all around... They can't make ethanol fast enough so they will
>> resort to methanol, which is even more nasty...
>>
>> But, don't let me stand in your way of knowledge... Do a search on
>> ethanol + corrosion and find out what I don't know...
>> cheers ... denny
>>

[Ken Chaddock]

I think Scott's attitude is more realistic than Denny's. Alcohol based
fuels, be it 100% alcohol or a mix of alcohol and gasoline, are on the
way. Simply from the cost perspective, I don't know about you guys, but
I've had to cut back on flying time because of the outrageous cost of
avgas and would be quite happy if I could get a safe, effective alcohol
based fuel at half (or less) the cost!
As to production, demand will drive production and we'll have as much
as we can use when we demand it. They're doing it in Brazil, so
effectively that Brazil is now self sufficient in fuel supply (and they
don't have much indigenous oil production) and have tapped only a small
portion of their production potential...I'm pretty sure we could do the
same in North America.
GM is already building hybrid alcohol/gasoline engines so many of the
"problems" noted have probably already been solved and the remainder
won't be far behind...so get ready for it, it's on the way and rather
sooner than later I (hope) think...

....Ken

Scott wrote:
> Hopefully, there are not too many knee-jerk reactions to ethanol and
> some good solid info comes forth. It MUST be able to be used (probably
> with some modifications). Back in the 90s there was a group with Van's
> RV series airplanes that flew at Oshkosh with 100% ethanol, if I recall.
> Brazil has been using high concentrations of ethanol for many years. I
> am very interested in learning what can be done to make a safe
> transition to ethanol based fuels...because I think it will be coming
> soon enough...
>
> Scott
>
>
> Denny wrote:
>
>> Ethanol is acidic and corrosive... It is death to aircraft rubber fuel
>> tanks, many kinds of rubber seals, corrodes many metals, and is a bad
>> idea all around... They can't make ethanol fast enough so they will
>> resort to methanol, which is even more nasty...
>>
>> But, don't let me stand in your way of knowledge... Do a search on
>> ethanol + corrosion and find out what I don't know...
>> cheers ... denny
>>

[Tater Schuld]

> wrote in message
oups.com...
> X-No-Archive
> Tater Schuld wrote:
>> > wrote in message
>> oups.com...
>> >
>> > Tater Schuld wrote:
>>
>> where can I find a breakdown that can show the effects of ethanol in
>> percentages from 5% to 85%
>
> Probably a research of SAE papers will show it. BUT, unless you KNOW
> that your system has been designed to accept more than 10% I wouldn't
> go there.

and how do I KNOW? I think that is what i am asking. you mention politics
and other factors shading the issue. I'd like to KNOW what parts in my
systems can or cannot handle ethanol in all percentages.

>
>> what do they affect?
>
> As others have stated:
> - alcohol is corrosive, in high enough concentrations.
> - any fuel system component, fuel pump, lines, tank,
> injector/carburetor can be harmed.
> - any significant amount of alcohol that finds its way into the
> crankcase oil can shorten the life of the basic engine itself. E85
> compatible engines use a special oil to help address this.
>
> Here's one (of many) quickie summaries.
> http://oee.nrcan.gc.ca/publications/infosource/pub/vehiclefuels/ethanol/M27_01_1991.cfm
>
> But read it with a grain of salt. There are politics in play. There
> are certain grain-producing states and companies that have a large
> financial interest in seeing more widespread use of ethanol. The
> cleaner-air statements are a subject of debate. Adding an "oxygenate"
> to an old carburetted system that may be running too rich might help a
> bit by leaning it out with up to 10% alcohol. Properly tuned modern
> engines, especially closed-loop fuel-injected don't need this "help".

yes other things to consider is what system I may be introducing ethanol
too.

[mark]

Ken you are assuming that you are going to get this mixture cheaper. In
fact it might even be more expensive than straight av gas. The difference
would be is that it would be available. The avgas you currently burn may
not be either by regulation or supply.

Aviation is shrinking so fast that there will come a time when the oil
companies are no longer making enough of it to justify its continued
production. It may not be far off.

The big difference between cars and airplanes when dealing with these types
of issues is the lifespan of the product. How many people junk a 10 year
old airplane? Lots of junk 10 year old cars. We want an airplane to last
for 50 not 10 years. Even a slight problems become major with time. An
auto is just not intended to be in service that long (though some are as the
collector car business is doing well) .
"Ken Chaddock" > wrote in message
news:Op45g.2173$cZ3.1590@clgrps13...
> I think Scott's attitude is more realistic than Denny's. Alcohol based
> fuels, be it 100% alcohol or a mix of alcohol and gasoline, are on the
> way. Simply from the cost perspective, I don't know about you guys, but
> I've had to cut back on flying time because of the outrageous cost of
> avgas and would be quite happy if I could get a safe, effective alcohol
> based fuel at half (or less) the cost!
> As to production, demand will drive production and we'll have as much as
> we can use when we demand it. They're doing it in Brazil, so effectively
> that Brazil is now self sufficient in fuel supply (and they don't have
> much indigenous oil production) and have tapped only a small portion of
> their production potential...I'm pretty sure we could do the same in North
> America.
> GM is already building hybrid alcohol/gasoline engines so many of the
> "problems" noted have probably already been solved and the remainder won't
> be far behind...so get ready for it, it's on the way and rather sooner
> than later I (hope) think...
>
> ...Ken
>
> Scott wrote:
>> Hopefully, there are not too many knee-jerk reactions to ethanol and some
>> good solid info comes forth. It MUST be able to be used (probably with
>> some modifications). Back in the 90s there was a group with Van's RV
>> series airplanes that flew at Oshkosh with 100% ethanol, if I recall.
>> Brazil has been using high concentrations of ethanol for many years. I am
>> very interested in learning what can be done to make a safe transition to
>> ethanol based fuels...because I think it will be coming soon enough...
>>
>> Scott
>>
>>
>> Denny wrote:
>>
>>> Ethanol is acidic and corrosive... It is death to aircraft rubber fuel
>>> tanks, many kinds of rubber seals, corrodes many metals, and is a bad
>>> idea all around... They can't make ethanol fast enough so they will
>>> resort to methanol, which is even more nasty...
>>>
>>> But, don't let me stand in your way of knowledge... Do a search on
>>> ethanol + corrosion and find out what I don't know...
>>> cheers ... denny
>>>

[Morgans]

> wrote .

> There is no simple answer.

If you are answering tater, you had better make it a real simple answer.
That's the only kind he is likely to understand.
--
Jim in NC

[Tater Schuld]

> wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> There is no simple answer. If I were you I would contact the
> manufacturer(s) of your engine and fuel system (tank, hoses, pump,
> carb/injectors, etc.). At best you will likely get the maximum %
> ethanol each component will tolerate. That should be good enough for
> your purposes. Although I'm not sure why you want to know "in all
> percentages". That may be asking too much. Are you saying that you
> *plan* to run all percentages (0 to 85) in your aircraft? You do
> realize that significant mixture adjustments must be made over that
> range? How will you compensate for that?

I don't plan on doing it that way.

what I am trying to figure out is what would need to be replaced if I
decided to go from X% mix to a Y% mix. currently autogas can contain 10%,
but if I want to convert my truck so it can run 50%, what will I need to
replace?

ten bucks says that the manufacturers will stick to 10% and say anything
over that will void warranties, without bothering to see if that really is
the case.

yes, truck. I assume the same thinking goes into aircraft. been to Oshkosh,
cant afford a plane(yet!)

[Ken Chaddock]

mark wrote:

> Ken you are assuming that you are going to get this mixture cheaper. In
> fact it might even be more expensive than straight av gas. The difference
> would be is that it would be available. The avgas you currently burn may
> not be either by regulation or supply.

That's not how it's played out in places that have invested heavily in
alcohol fuels. In Brazil for example, fuel grade alcohol sells for about
1/5th the cost of gasoline.
In North America, regulation will likely prevent gouging since there
will not only be supply-side issues but also environmental issues and if
environmentally sensitive governments want people to switch to alcohol
it's likely they will move to prevent excess "profit taking"

> Aviation is shrinking so fast that there will come a time when the oil
> companies are no longer making enough of it to justify its continued
> production. It may not be far off.

That's possible certainly but one of the reasons aviation is shrinking
is the cost of avgas. When I started flying I could fill up a C-172 for
a cool $15.00...and while I make a lot more now than I did then, fuel
costs are a significantly higher proportion of my per-hour flying costs
than they were was back then...When I'm sitting around the club, the
main bitch I hear is the cost of fuel and how it's keeping so many on
the ground...

> The big difference between cars and airplanes when dealing with these types
> of issues is the lifespan of the product. How many people junk a 10 year
> old airplane? Lots of junk 10 year old cars. We want an airplane to last
> for 50 not 10 years. Even a slight problems become major with time. An
> auto is just not intended to be in service that long (though some are as the
> collector car business is doing well) .

These are all just technical problems that can (and I expect) will be
solved. It remains to be seen whether the solutions will be affordable
for general aviation...

....Ken

[[email protected]]

Tater Schuld wrote:
> seems odd, isn't ethanol/methanol the main ingredient in gas deicer?

Some are mostly methanol.

Some others use isopropynol. Pat Gauss (of PBS's autoweek) advises
using only the isopropynol variety as it does not attack the
elastomeric
components of the fuel system the way methanol and ethanol do.

--

FF

[ventus2]

They're doing it in Brazil, so
> effectively that Brazil is now self sufficient in fuel supply (and they
> don't have much indigenous oil production) and have tapped only a small
> portion of their production potential...I'm pretty sure we could do the
> same in North America.

When I stayed in Brazil for a few months building motorgliders at Aeromot
and hanging out with the engineers, I was informed that auto engines there
(eg. 1.4, 1.6L VW Golfs, no, nothing to do with 'thats because they are
VW's') were lasting on average around 60,000km using the high blend ethanol
fuel (the one that costs 1/5th the price of normal fuel).

We all fuss and potter over our aircraft engines and always seem to have our
fingers in there making sure that all is well, and more often than not they
are fine for their lifespan. How many 'average' people would take the cover
off their 'eco' car engine to make sure that the timing is right, check the
sparks plugs etc? More often than not, they just run.
I am certainly not confident in taking the heads off a car engine to see the
affects of Ethanol on the pistons/valves, yet more often than not, people
seem much more at ease taking the heads off their Rotax or Jabiru engine to
have a bit of a look.
I guess this is a whole different topic, though eventually will we get
reports in on what is happening to the insides of the engines.

Time will tell.

Chris

[.Blueskies.]

What is the power density of the ethanol? I know you have to shoot more of it through the engine to keep from running
lean. How does fuel consumption compare; gph gasoleen vs gph ethanol. What weight difference is there?

[Morgans]

".Blueskies." > wrote in message
. com...
>
>
> What is the power density of the ethanol? I know you have to shoot more of
> it through the engine to keep from running lean. How does fuel consumption
> compare; gph gasoleen vs gph ethanol. What weight difference is there?

About 10% more needed per HP. A little less than 10% weight.
--
Jim in NC

[Roger]

On Sat, 6 May 2006 17:19:35 -0400, "Morgans"
> wrote:

>
>".Blueskies." > wrote in message
. com...
>>
>>
>> What is the power density of the ethanol? I know you have to shoot more of
>> it through the engine to keep from running lean. How does fuel consumption
>> compare; gph gasoleen vs gph ethanol. What weight difference is there?
>
>About 10% more needed per HP. A little less than 10% weight.

With Methanol containing about half the energy per unit volume of gas
I have a problem reconciling that 10% more. What am I missing?

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

[Morgans]

"Roger" > wrote in message

> With Methanol containing about half the energy per unit volume of gas
> I have a problem reconciling that 10% more. What am I missing?

I could be thinking of the fuel/alcohol mix. Sorry.
--
Jim in NC

[Roger]

On Sat, 6 May 2006 23:36:01 -0400, "Morgans"
> wrote:

>
>"Roger" > wrote in message
>
>> With Methanol containing about half the energy per unit volume of gas
>> I have a problem reconciling that 10% more. What am I missing?
>
>I could be thinking of the fuel/alcohol mix. Sorry.

That'd be about right for the "Gasahol" we use for "regular" here in
Michigan.

Currently there are two "standard" mixes. Gasahol which uses up to
10% ethenol and E85 which is 85% alcohol, but I've never seen that in
Michigan. I understand it's available in Wisconsin and several other
states. Probably some areas in Michigan too, but as I said, I've never
seen it.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

[Roger]

On Sat, 6 May 2006 22:04:30 +1000, "ventus2" >
wrote:

>They're doing it in Brazil, so
>> effectively that Brazil is now self sufficient in fuel supply (and they
>> don't have much indigenous oil production) and have tapped only a small
>> portion of their production potential...I'm pretty sure we could do the
>> same in North America.

Brazil has a lot of sugar cane which yields far more alcohol than corn
and lends itself well to mechanized growing and harvesting.

>
>When I stayed in Brazil for a few months building motorgliders at Aeromot
>and hanging out with the engineers, I was informed that auto engines there
>(eg. 1.4, 1.6L VW Golfs, no, nothing to do with 'thats because they are
>VW's') were lasting on average around 60,000km using the high blend ethanol
>fuel (the one that costs 1/5th the price of normal fuel).

Here we'd expect current VW engines to last 150 to 200,000 miles
depending on how they are driven.

>
>We all fuss and potter over our aircraft engines and always seem to have our
>fingers in there making sure that all is well, and more often than not they
>are fine for their lifespan. How many 'average' people would take the cover
>off their 'eco' car engine to make sure that the timing is right, check the

That eco engine is far, far more complex than any standard aircraft
engines I've seen. Some run very high compression (as much as 13:1
for gas) with variable cam timing, variable solid state ignition
timing, and high pressure fuel injection. On some that is even timed.

>sparks plugs etc? More often than not, they just run.
>I am certainly not confident in taking the heads off a car engine to see the
>affects of Ethanol on the pistons/valves, yet more often than not, people
>seem much more at ease taking the heads off their Rotax or Jabiru engine to
>have a bit of a look.

Yup!

>I guess this is a whole different topic, though eventually will we get
>reports in on what is happening to the insides of the engines.

I've seen a few reports that said the cylinders and combustion
chambers were still shiny after many miles. However I have heard
nothing of fuel tanks, lines, or fuel injection systems.

If those mileage life time figures hold true those engines are lasting
a fraction of what we'd expect here. OTOH they may not be the same
engines we are seeing, but most of today's engines (even out of
Detroit or where ever they get them) seem to last a very long time
with very little maintenance.

My Wife's old Eagle Summit which got into the low 30 MPG range when it
was in its early years still gets close to 30 with nigh onto 200,000
miles. It's had a couple of water pumps, brakes, many tires, and the
heater finally gave up, but it still starts and runs well.

Bio-diesel might be the way to go in many areas, but I think we are
fast approaching the point were it is going to cease to be
inexpensive. It's a good use for soybeans and for scrap cooking oil.
There are reports of truckers getting a couple MPG improvement using
the stuff compared to standard diesel and when you are only getting 6
or 7 MPG that could be substantial savings. OTOH they have to add
alcohol to the stuff up here in the frozen north during winters or the
stuff gels in the lines and tanks.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

>
>Time will tell.
>
>Chris
>
>

[[email protected]]

Roger wrote:
> On Sat, 6 May 2006 22:04:30 +1000, "ventus2" >
> wrote:
>
> >They're doing it in Brazil, so
> >> effectively that Brazil is now self sufficient in fuel supply (and they
> >> don't have much indigenous oil production) and have tapped only a small
> >> portion of their production potential...I'm pretty sure we could do the
> >> same in North America.
>
> Brazil has a lot of sugar cane which yields far more alcohol than corn
> and lends itself well to mechanized growing and harvesting.
>

Ther are temperate sugar canes, like sorghum. It grow OK in Ohio,
don't know how the sugar content compares to tropical sugar
canes.

I suppose we could import our ethanol from Cuba...

--

FF

[Morgans]

> wrote
>
> Ther are temperate sugar canes, like sorghum. It grow OK in Ohio,
> don't know how the sugar content compares to tropical sugar
> canes.

How about sugar beets? When I lived in Ohio, they grew a lot of it, then.
(30 years ago)

How would it be for making alcohol?
--
Jim in NC

[Anthony W]

Morgans wrote:
> > wrote
>> Ther are temperate sugar canes, like sorghum. It grow OK in Ohio,
>> don't know how the sugar content compares to tropical sugar
>> canes.
>
> How about sugar beets? When I lived in Ohio, they grew a lot of it, then.
> (30 years ago)
>
> How would it be for making alcohol?

It still cost 2x as much as gas to produce and you use 2x as much of it.
In Brazil as in the USA, Ethanol is subsidized to make it feasible.
They would be better off making rum from that sugarcane and trading it
for gas.

Tony

[clare at snyder.on.ca]

On Sat, 06 May 2006 23:30:09 -0400, Roger
> wrote:

>On Sat, 6 May 2006 17:19:35 -0400, "Morgans"
> wrote:
>
>>
>>".Blueskies." > wrote in message
. com...
>>>
>>>
>>> What is the power density of the ethanol? I know you have to shoot more of
>>> it through the engine to keep from running lean. How does fuel consumption
>>> compare; gph gasoleen vs gph ethanol. What weight difference is there?
>>
>>About 10% more needed per HP. A little less than 10% weight.
>
>With Methanol containing about half the energy per unit volume of gas
>I have a problem reconciling that 10% more. What am I missing?
>

The M. Talking Ethanol, not Methanol. Different horses for different
courses, as they say.
>Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
>(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
>www.rogerhalstead.com


*** Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com ***

[Roger]

On Sun, 07 May 2006 16:58:53 -0400, clare at snyder.on.ca wrote:

>On Sat, 06 May 2006 23:30:09 -0400, Roger
> wrote:
>
>>On Sat, 6 May 2006 17:19:35 -0400, "Morgans"
> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>".Blueskies." > wrote in message
. com...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> What is the power density of the ethanol? I know you have to shoot more of
>>>> it through the engine to keep from running lean. How does fuel consumption
>>>> compare; gph gasoleen vs gph ethanol. What weight difference is there?
>>>
>>>About 10% more needed per HP. A little less than 10% weight.
>>
>>With Methanol containing about half the energy per unit volume of gas

Change the word Methanol to Ethanol.

>>I have a problem reconciling that 10% more. What am I missing?
>>
>
>The M. Talking Ethanol, not Methanol. Different horses for different
>courses, as they say.

The Methanol was a one letter typo. I knew what I meant.<:-))

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com
>>Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
>>(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
>>www.rogerhalstead.com
>
>
>*** Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com ***