MontJet update

[Montblack]

PROBLEM down below.

http://www.ainonline.com/Issues/12_05/12_05_spectrum_1.htm
Story about the Spectrum 33

http://www.spectrum.aero/downloads/model_33_prelim_specs.pdf
Specs for the Spectrum 33

Single piece wing .............305 lbs
Fuselage ............................309 lbs
Engine ................................290 lbs
Engine ................................290 lbs
Total so far ......................1,194 lbs

Everything else [S-33].....2,426 lbs
Empty Weight ................3,620 lbs

Single place, single engine MontJet:
[Based on the Spectrum 33 numbers]

Wing .........................45 lbs
Fuselage ..................45 lbs
Jet engine ..............200 lbs?
Everything else ........60 lbs
MontJet Empty Wt .350 lbs
(Double the Empty Weight of the Cri-Cri)

PROBLEM:
I only allowed 60 lbs for "Everything else".

Granted the S-33 is a 10 place jet vs the single seater MontJet. Still,
their "everything else" is DOUBLE the weight of their
wings+fuselage+engine(s).

The MontJet "everything else" is only 1/5 (21%) the weight of the
wings+fuselage+engine.

Hmm.....?


Montblack (Fire in my ...belly!)

Here comes the rich man in his big long limousine
Here comes the poor man all you got to have is green
Here comes the banker and the lawyer and the cop
One thing for certain it ain't never gonna stop
When it all gets too heavy
That's when they come and go
With only one thing in common
They got the fire down below"

"Fire Down Below"
Bob Seger - Night Moves (1976)

[Morgans]

"Montblack" > wrote in message
...
> PROBLEM down below.

> Single place, single engine MontJet:
> [Based on the Spectrum 33 numbers]
>
> Wing .........................45 lbs
> Fuselage ..................45 lbs
> Jet engine ..............200 lbs?
> Everything else ........60 lbs
> MontJet Empty Wt .350 lbs
> (Double the Empty Weight of the Cri-Cri)

I see ur problem, and I'm shocked you didn't catch it!

That 200 pounds for engines is way too high! You should have substituted a
couple of Rotax engines, for those.
<g>

What comes around, goes around. ;-))
--
Jim in NC

[Montblack]

("Morgans" wrote)
> That 200 pounds for engines is way too high! You should have substituted
> a couple of Rotax engines, for those.

VL"J" ...Hello. They're not talking about "Jets" in the carb! <g>

> What comes around, goes around. ;-))

I thought that was your issue with the Rotax all along - that it doesn't
always come back around. <chuckle>

Anyone out there with a PROVEN jet engine, with a fuel burn under
(Spectrum's per engine average)27 gph, that puts out 800-1,200 pound-thrust,
and weighs under 200 lbs?

15-20 gph* would be nice.

(* For 2 to 4 hour trips at 35,000-45,000 feet. Shorter trips will burn
more)

Otherwise: Williams FJ33-4A [1,568 pound-thrust] @ 290 lbs it is.
I feel so much like the Eclipse team, right now, it's scary! :-)

<http://www.spectrum.aero/downloads/competitive_analysis.pdf>
Competitive analysis Spectrum 33 vs. other Jets.

2 engines and... "4 passengers, NBAA IFR Reserves"

[300 nm]
617 lbs. is 84.1 gal ....0 hr+53 (53 min) = 99.6 gph/2 engines

[600 nm]
688 lbs. is 98.3 gal ...1 hr+41 (101 min) = 58.2 gph/2 engines

[1000 nm]
1,096 lbs. is 156.6 gal ....2 hr+50 (170 min) = 55.2 gph/2 engines

[1,600 nm]
1,647 lbs. is 235.3 gal ....4 hr+35 (275 min) = 51.6 gph/2 engines


Team MontJet

[An Empty Pocket]

and just for "fun", how much would be the cost of a FJ33 ?

[Robert Bonomi]

In article >,
Montblack > wrote:
>
>PROBLEM:
>I only allowed 60 lbs for "Everything else".
>
>Granted the S-33 is a 10 place jet vs the single seater MontJet. Still,
>their "everything else" is DOUBLE the weight of their
>wings+fuselage+engine(s).
>
>The MontJet "everything else" is only 1/5 (21%) the weight of the
>wings+fuselage+engine.
>
>Hmm.....?

A) helium-filled inserts in the wing?

B) install only a pilot that is equipped with a large supply (self-contained)
of 'hot air'.

[Tony Goetz]

Montblack wrote...
> Anyone out there with a PROVEN jet engine, with a fuel burn under
> (Spectrum's per engine average)27 gph, that puts out 800-1,200
pound-thrust,
> and weighs under 200 lbs?
>
> 15-20 gph* would be nice.
>
> (* For 2 to 4 hour trips at 35,000-45,000 feet. Shorter trips will burn
> more)
>
> Otherwise: Williams FJ33-4A [1,568 pound-thrust] @ 290 lbs it is.
> I feel so much like the Eclipse team, right now, it's scary! :-)


The Aviation Week SourceBook has a nice big run down of gas turbine engines
and manufacturers (along with everything else aerospace). I managed to
download the 2005 turbine section several months ago, but I can't find the
link anymore (I think it was direct from AviationNow.com). In any case, I
saved it and have uploaded it if you want to browse. There are quite a few
engines in the range you're looking at, mostly intended for drones.

http://www.togo84.com/spec05_gas_turbines.pdf

So... when does construction begin?


-Tony Goetz

[Jack Allison]

Tony Goetz wrote:
>
> So... when does construction begin?


And when are you taking orders? Need a test pilot? What about a web
master? :-)



--
Jack Allison
PP-ASEL-Instrument Airplane
Arrow N2104T

"When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the Earth
with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, and there
you will always long to return"
- Leonardo Da Vinci

(Remove the obvious from address to reply via e-mail)

[Jack Allison]

Robert Bonomi wrote:

>
> B) install only a pilot that is equipped with a large supply (self-contained)
> of 'hot air'.

No no...not the pilot, the OP! Plenty of overly warm, dare I say hot?
Why yes, hot indeed...air. :-)




--
Jack Allison
PP-ASEL-Instrument Airplane
Arrow N2104T

"When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the Earth
with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, and there
you will always long to return"
- Leonardo Da Vinci

(Remove the obvious from address to reply via e-mail)

[Montblack]

("Jack Allison" wrote)
> And when are you taking orders?

As soon as I figure out how much a 2006 dollar will be worth at some
unspecified time in the future. :-)

> Need a test pilot?

With a GOOD programmer, we should be able to fly off our hours in a sim. No?

> What about a web master? :-)

Yes. Also, a pavilion tent at OSH. The web can direct interested parties to
the OSH display, while the OSH display will direct people to check out our
website for future updates.


Montblack

[Montblack]

("Jack Allison" wrote)
> No no...not the pilot, the OP! Plenty of overly warm, dare I say hot?
> Why yes, hot indeed...air. :-)


With a ceiling of 45,000 ft ...no [ride ABOVE the] soup for you! <g>


Team MonJet

[Montblack]

(Tony Goetz wrote)
> The Aviation Week SourceBook has a nice big run down of gas turbine
> engines and manufacturers (along with everything else aerospace). I
> managed to download the 2005 turbine section several months ago, but I
> can't find the link anymore (I think it was direct from AviationNow.com).
> In any case, I saved it and have uploaded it if you want to browse. There
> are quite a few engines in the range you're looking at, mostly intended
> for drones.

http://www.togo84.com/spec05_gas_turbines.pdf
Very cool. Thanks.

Rainy day kind of link to root around in.

Rolls-Royce (Indianapolis, IN, USA)
Model # AE 1107C

MAX. POWER AT SEA LEVEL (LB.-THRUST/SHP.)
6,150 shp (Shaft horsepower)

SPECIFIC FUEL CONSUMPTIONAT MAX. POWER LB./LBF.-HR. or LB./HP.-HR.
0.41

Dry weight ....973 lbs

Bell Boeing V-22.


Montblack

[Jack Allison]

Montblack wrote:

> With a ceiling of 45,000 ft ...no [ride ABOVE the] soup for you! <g>
>
>
> Team MonJet
Hey, wait...am I not a founding member and supporter of the MontBlack
fan club? One (well, ok, maybe two...er...um...plus a few more) itty
bitty comments and I'm booted off the plane (before the plane is even
*on* the drawing board. Who died and left you CEO? :-)

Besides...flying in the soup, so long as it's not turbulent, no embedded
T-storms, no ice, is fun...in that twisted instrument flying sort of way.

Ok, ok, so I beg forgiveness and start out as your web master.


--
Jack Allison
PP-ASEL-Instrument Airplane
Arrow N2104T

"When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the Earth
with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, and there
you will always long to return"
- Leonardo Da Vinci

(Remove the obvious from address to reply via e-mail)

[Montblack]

("Jack Allison" wrote)
> Who died and left you CEO? :-)


Speaking of, I wonder if BRS makes Golden Parachutes?

http://www.brsparachutes.com/default.aspx
Located in South St Paul, MN ...at the airport.


"Team" MontJet

[Richard Lamb]

Tony Goetz wrote:
>
> Montblack wrote...
> > Anyone out there with a PROVEN jet engine, with a fuel burn under
> > (Spectrum's per engine average)27 gph, that puts out 800-1,200
> pound-thrust,
> > and weighs under 200 lbs?
> >
> > 15-20 gph* would be nice.


Short answer? In the whole list, only the first three
(drone engines) which maxed out at 320 pounds thrust.

Two of those might fly that .82 ME-262.
With rather scale performance, I might add :)


Lot's'o SHAFT engines that might be interesting...
But there's that whole propeller thing again.

Nice list, (Tony?)

> The Aviation Week SourceBook has a nice big run down of gas turbine engines
> and manufacturers (along with everything else aerospace). I managed to
> download the 2005 turbine section several months ago, but I can't find the
> link anymore (I think it was direct from AviationNow.com). In any case, I
> saved it and have uploaded it if you want to browse. There are quite a few
> engines in the range you're looking at, mostly intended for drones.
>
> http://www.togo84.com/spec05_gas_turbines.pdf
>
> So... when does construction begin?
>
> -Tony Goetz

[Richard Lamb]

Montblack wrote:
>
> (Tony Goetz wrote)
> > The Aviation Week SourceBook has a nice big run down of gas turbine
> > engines and manufacturers (along with everything else aerospace). I
> > managed to download the 2005 turbine section several months ago, but I
> > can't find the link anymore (I think it was direct from AviationNow.com).
> > In any case, I saved it and have uploaded it if you want to browse. There
> > are quite a few engines in the range you're looking at, mostly intended
> > for drones.
>
> http://www.togo84.com/spec05_gas_turbines.pdf
> Very cool. Thanks.
>
> Rainy day kind of link to root around in.
>
> Rolls-Royce (Indianapolis, IN, USA)
> Model # AE 1107C
>
> MAX. POWER AT SEA LEVEL (LB.-THRUST/SHP.)
> 6,150 shp (Shaft horsepower)
>
> SPECIFIC FUEL CONSUMPTIONAT MAX. POWER LB./LBF.-HR. or LB./HP.-HR.
> 0.41
>
> Dry weight ....973 lbs
>
> Bell Boeing V-22.



There are some MONSTER engines in there!

>
> Montblack

[Robert Bonomi]

In article >,
Montblack > wrote:
>("Jack Allison" wrote)
>> Who died and left you CEO? :-)
>
>
>Speaking of, I wonder if BRS makes Golden Parachutes?

Rumor-mill says this can be accomplished by taking the eqipment to several
churches, and having the head priest at each sanctify it.

If I were to do that, I'd go to St. Peter's, St. Paul's, and St. Mary's.

That way, it's assured to work. When needed, I'll have the (thrice blessed)
Sounds of Silence. <groan>

[Anthony W]

Robert Bonomi wrote:
> In article >,
> Montblack > wrote:
>> ("Jack Allison" wrote)
>>> Who died and left you CEO? :-)
>>
>> Speaking of, I wonder if BRS makes Golden Parachutes?
>
> Rumor-mill says this can be accomplished by taking the eqipment to several
> churches, and having the head priest at each sanctify it.
>
> If I were to do that, I'd go to St. Peter's, St. Paul's, and St. Mary's.
>
> That way, it's assured to work. When needed, I'll have the (thrice blessed)
> Sounds of Silence. <groan>
>

It would would certainly blow in the wind. ;o)

Tony

[Montblack]

("Richard Lamb" wrote)
> There are some MONSTER engines in there!


Agreed.
http://www.togo84.com/spec05_gas_turbines.pdf

<http://www.spectrum.aero/downloads/competitive_analysis.pdf>
If the Spectrum 33 will burn half the fuel (starting at 500 miles) vs. the
Cessna Citation CJ1, and fly (slightly) higher, and fly (slightly) faster
....mostly because of weight.

Then the MontJet, [now] weighing 1/6th the Spectrum 33's Empty Wt., and
1/5th the Spectrum 33's MTOW, and having 1/2 the number of engines, should
be able to keep up with the Spectrum 33 while burning less than 1/2 the fuel
of the Spectrum 33.

1/2 the fuel burn is in the neighborhood of 25-29 gph - for flights over one
hour.

So, I'm looking at, hopefully, a number in the low 20 gph range for a 2-4 hr
MontJet flight. Am I not? This flight would be side by side with the
Spectrum 33. (45,000 ft and 415 kts).

If I increase the Empty Weight of the MontJet to 600 lbs, I'm still only
1/6th the Empty Wt. of the Spectrum 33, and still hovering around (1/5th)
20% of the S-33's MTOW.

Not to mention (so I mention it) my significantly smaller profile skimming
through the air. Not sure on the phraseology there.

MontJet: (415 kts/FL450)
(Range: 1,500+ miles)
Empty Weight ............600 lbs (x6 = S-33)
Fuel (4 hrs)..................600 lbs @ 21.5 gph (7 lbs/gal)
Pilot + stuff .................260 lbs
MTOW .....................1,460 lbs (x5 = S33)

Spectrum 33: (415 kts/FL450)
(Range: 2,000 miles)
Empty Wt. ...............3,620 lbs
MTOW .....................7,300 lbs

BTW, I'm using the same engine as the Spectrum 33:
Engine ................................290 lbs
Williams FJ33-4A [1,568 pound-thrust]

Unless a smaller (less fuel burn) FJ22 becomes available! <g>

http://www.williams-int.com/high/product/Airplanes/FJ33Planes.htm
Planes using the FJ33 Engine


Team MontJet
Goals:
1. Get that MTOW under 1,200 lbs.
2. Get that fuel burn under 20 gph for flights over 1.5 hours. FJ22???
3. Partner with Spectrum so they'll let me use their cool new plane-making
system.
4. Don't get dead and don't go dead broke.

[Richard Lamb]

Montblack wrote:
>
> ("Richard Lamb" wrote)
> > There are some MONSTER engines in there!
>
> Agreed.
> http://www.togo84.com/spec05_gas_turbines.pdf
>
> <http://www.spectrum.aero/downloads/competitive_analysis.pdf>
> If the Spectrum 33 will burn half the fuel (starting at 500 miles) vs. the
> Cessna Citation CJ1, and fly (slightly) higher, and fly (slightly) faster
> ...mostly because of weight.
>
> Then the MontJet, [now] weighing 1/6th the Spectrum 33's Empty Wt., and
> 1/5th the Spectrum 33's MTOW, and having 1/2 the number of engines, should
> be able to keep up with the Spectrum 33 while burning less than 1/2 the fuel
> of the Spectrum 33.
>
> 1/2 the fuel burn is in the neighborhood of 25-29 gph - for flights over one
> hour.
>
> So, I'm looking at, hopefully, a number in the low 20 gph range for a 2-4 hr
> MontJet flight. Am I not? This flight would be side by side with the
> Spectrum 33. (45,000 ft and 415 kts).
>
> If I increase the Empty Weight of the MontJet to 600 lbs, I'm still only
> 1/6th the Empty Wt. of the Spectrum 33, and still hovering around (1/5th)
> 20% of the S-33's MTOW.
>
> Not to mention (so I mention it) my significantly smaller profile skimming
> through the air. Not sure on the phraseology there.
>
> MontJet: (415 kts/FL450)
> (Range: 1,500+ miles)
> Empty Weight ............600 lbs (x6 = S-33)
> Fuel (4 hrs)..................600 lbs @ 21.5 gph (7 lbs/gal)
> Pilot + stuff .................260 lbs
> MTOW .....................1,460 lbs (x5 = S33)
>
> Spectrum 33: (415 kts/FL450)
> (Range: 2,000 miles)
> Empty Wt. ...............3,620 lbs
> MTOW .....................7,300 lbs
>
> BTW, I'm using the same engine as the Spectrum 33:
> Engine ................................290 lbs
> Williams FJ33-4A [1,568 pound-thrust]
>
> Unless a smaller (less fuel burn) FJ22 becomes available! <g>
>
> http://www.williams-int.com/high/product/Airplanes/FJ33Planes.htm
> Planes using the FJ33 Engine
>
> Team MontJet
> Goals:
> 1. Get that MTOW under 1,200 lbs.
> 2. Get that fuel burn under 20 gph for flights over 1.5 hours. FJ22???
> 3. Partner with Spectrum so they'll let me use their cool new plane-making
> system.
> 4. Don't get dead and don't go dead broke.

First, break numba 4 into two pieces...
4. Don't get dead
5. Don't go dead broke.

That's so we know which one got us in the end.




1000 pounds thrust!


Ok, your empty weight estimate, like everybody elses, is way to low.

At 300 pounds dry weight the FJ33 is certainly the smallest offering
from Williams international. Like they say, "For a new class of jet".

But that only leaves 300 pounds for airframe, cockpit, landing gear,
etc.

And this is not going to be a BD-5 sized plane - not with that engine.
Not with two hours of fuel aboard!

If we are talking about a "Sport Jet" (1200 lbs MTOW) we still need to
find a smaller engine. Something about half that size, or so?

Smaller *Lighter* engine, with a lower fuel burn.

And it's going to need a pretty cool wing to make speed restrictions.

Something like a miniature U2?

Well, at least there are no climb rate restrictions, nor did I notice
any altitude limits (BG)