What WW2 plane broke the sound barrier?

[Boris]

Do any readers know what particular plane in World War 2,
was rumored to have broke the sound barrier ?

[[email protected]]

Me 163 Komet

-Kees

[Kyle Boatright]

"Boris" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> Do any readers know what particular plane in World War 2,
> was rumored to have broke the sound barrier ?

There were lots of claims of WWII aircraft breaking the sound barrier. The
P-47, Me-262, and Me-163 come to mind. The claims have been pretty well
debunked because none of those aircraft would have been controllable beyond
..85 or .9 mach. Beyond that, no WWII aircraft had enough power combined or
a clean enough airframe to go that fast. Consider that the F-86, with far
more engine power and a swept wing was *barely* supersonic, and only in a
steep dive.

KB

[Dan Luke]

"Kyle Boatright" wrote:
>..the F-86, with far more engine power and a swept wing was *barely*
>supersonic, and only in a steep dive.

Back in 1952, I was a little kid living on Williams AFB in Arizona. In
those days, nobody made so much fuss about noise, and the F-86 jocks on the
base regularly made everyone jump with mach 1+ dives. We kids loved it.

--
Dan
C172RG at BFM

[Kyle Boatright]

"Dan Luke" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Kyle Boatright" wrote:
>>..the F-86, with far more engine power and a swept wing was *barely*
>>supersonic, and only in a steep dive.
>
> Back in 1952, I was a little kid living on Williams AFB in Arizona. In
> those days, nobody made so much fuss about noise, and the F-86 jocks on
> the base regularly made everyone jump with mach 1+ dives. We kids loved
> it.
>
> --
> Dan
> C172RG at BFM

Aaah, the good old days. When airplane noise was a good thing and being a
pilot was a novel and respected profession or avocation. Unlike today when
there are plenty of folks out there who'd legislate us out of "their" skies
in a minute...

KB

[Jim Macklin]

The Air Force even advertised "THE SOUND of FREEDOM"


--
The people think the Constitution protects their rights;
But government sees it as an obstacle to be overcome.
some support
http://www.usdoj.gov/olc/secondamendment2.htm
See http://www.fija.org/ more about your rights and duties.


"Kyle Boatright" > wrote in message
. ..
|
| "Dan Luke" > wrote in message
| ...
| >
| > "Kyle Boatright" wrote:
| >>..the F-86, with far more engine power and a swept wing
was *barely*
| >>supersonic, and only in a steep dive.
| >
| > Back in 1952, I was a little kid living on Williams AFB
in Arizona. In
| > those days, nobody made so much fuss about noise, and
the F-86 jocks on
| > the base regularly made everyone jump with mach 1+
dives. We kids loved
| > it.
| >
| > --
| > Dan
| > C172RG at BFM
|
| Aaah, the good old days. When airplane noise was a good
thing and being a
| pilot was a novel and respected profession or avocation.
Unlike today when
| there are plenty of folks out there who'd legislate us out
of "their" skies
| in a minute...
|
| KB
|
|

[john smith]

In article om>,
"Boris" > wrote:

> Do any readers know what particular plane in World War 2,
> was rumored to have broke the sound barrier ?

Lockheed P-38 Lightning revealed Mach tuck phenomenum, its cause and fix.

[Matt Barrow]

"Dan Luke" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Kyle Boatright" wrote:
>>..the F-86, with far more engine power and a swept wing was *barely*
>>supersonic, and only in a steep dive.
>
> Back in 1952, I was a little kid living on Williams AFB in Arizona. In
> those days, nobody made so much fuss about noise, and the F-86 jocks on
> the base regularly made everyone jump with mach 1+ dives. We kids loved
> it.

Been back to Williams lately? My BIL lives about three miles from there.

http://www.airnav.com/airport/KIWA

[Matt Barrow]

"Kyle Boatright" > wrote in message
. ..
>
>
> Aaah, the good old days. When airplane noise was a good thing and being a
> pilot was a novel and respected profession or avocation. Unlike today
> when there are plenty of folks out there who'd legislate us out of "their"
> skies in a minute...
>

Ask an old (subjective, sure) person about noise and they'll tell you about
when noise from trains was a welcome sign of the restoration of prosperity
after the Great Depression.

[Kingfish]

>>>Lockheed P-38 Lightning revealed Mach tuck phenomenum, its cause and fix.<<<

It wasn't mach tuck IIRC as the plane wouldn't go that fast. It was
flight control compressibility in a high speed dive that froze the
stick. The J model had dive brakes for just that reason.

[Dan Luke]

"Matt Barrow" wrote:
>>
>> "Kyle Boatright" wrote:
>>>..the F-86, with far more engine power and a swept wing was *barely*
>>>supersonic, and only in a steep dive.
>>
>> Back in 1952, I was a little kid living on Williams AFB in Arizona. In
>> those days, nobody made so much fuss about noise, and the F-86 jocks on
>> the base regularly made everyone jump with mach 1+ dives. We kids loved
>> it.
>
> Been back to Williams lately? My BIL lives about three miles from there.
>
> http://www.airnav.com/airport/KIWA

I heard it had turned civilian some years ago.

Williams was heaven for officers' brats: a whole desert full of tarantulas
and scorpions to play in and an O-Club pool to swim in.

[Dudley Henriques]

"Boris" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> Do any readers know what particular plane in World War 2,
> was rumored to have broke the sound barrier ?

I might be perhaps unique on the group to answer this question, as I had a
P51D out to .75 during an O2 failure some years back. During the post event
investigation with some friends from North American , this subject came up
several times and was openly discussed.
First of all, no prop fighter ever made it out to mach 1.

I had a friend, Herb Fisher, who did high speed dive testing using various
prop configurations, in a P47 Thunderbolt. Herb didn't find a prop that
would make it through the drag rise between .90 and mach 1. Several types of
prop were tried. All failed. I had another good friend, Erik Shilling, who
flew with Chennault in China, who had his best friend die diving a P40 when
the prop tips went into transonic shock.

The Brits tried it at Boscombe Down with Spits after the war. Same result.
As the prop tips entered critical mach through tangental velocity, the drag
curve became intensive. That, coupled with propeller shock denied all
propeller driven fighters supersonic flight.
As for the jets;

Much has been written pertaining to the early German jets. One German pilot
(Hans Mutke)swore he exceeded mach 1 in the ME262. Investigation revealed he
honestly believed this.
What happened to him was that his aircraft had exceeded the pressure rise in
his pitot system as he was diving and he misread the instruments. US
engineers have absolutely proven that the 262's basic design was not
conducive to supersonic flight, again due to drag rise.
As for my experience in the 51, I had a walking stick, a potential overspeed
condition, and compressibility onset. I barely made it out alive, and I
would never want to do it again :-)
George Welch was the first to go Mach 1 in the prototype F86. Yeager
followed in level flight several days later.
Dudley Henriques

[john smith]

In article . com>,
"Kingfish" > wrote:

> >>>Lockheed P-38 Lightning revealed Mach tuck phenomenum, its cause and
> >>>fix.<<<

> It wasn't mach tuck IIRC as the plane wouldn't go that fast. It was
> flight control compressibility in a high speed dive that froze the
> stick. The J model had dive brakes for just that reason.

I stand corrected. It was indeed compressibility. Thank you!

[Matt Barrow]

"Dan Luke" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Matt Barrow" wrote:
> >>
>>> "Kyle Boatright" wrote:
>>>>..the F-86, with far more engine power and a swept wing was *barely*
>>>>supersonic, and only in a steep dive.
>>>
>>> Back in 1952, I was a little kid living on Williams AFB in Arizona. In
>>> those days, nobody made so much fuss about noise, and the F-86 jocks on
>>> the base regularly made everyone jump with mach 1+ dives. We kids loved
>>> it.
>>
>> Been back to Williams lately? My BIL lives about three miles from there.
>>
>> http://www.airnav.com/airport/KIWA
>
> I heard it had turned civilian some years ago.

Yeah, about ten years ago. Most of the old USAF buildings are now some sort
of extention for ASU and the on-post housing is dorms for the school.

>
> Williams was heaven for officers' brats: a whole desert full of tarantulas
> and scorpions to play in and an O-Club pool to swim in.

Didn't you play with the rattlesnakes? My BIL took me dove hunting near
there a couple years back and we saw a few of them.

--
Matt
---------------------
Matthew W. Barrow
Site-Fill Homes, LLC.
Montrose, CO (MTJ)

[Dan Luke]

"Matt Barrow" wrote:

>> Williams was heaven for officers' brats: a whole desert full of tarantulas
>> and scorpions to play in and an O-Club pool to swim in.
>
> Didn't you play with the rattlesnakes? My BIL took me dove hunting near
> there a couple years back and we saw a few of them.

Never saw one that I remember. I'm sure there were plenty, but they're
mostly active at night in the desert, I believe.

[Matt Barrow]

"Dan Luke" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Matt Barrow" wrote:
>
>>> Williams was heaven for officers' brats: a whole desert full of
>>> tarantulas and scorpions to play in and an O-Club pool to swim in.
>>
>> Didn't you play with the rattlesnakes? My BIL took me dove hunting near
>> there a couple years back and we saw a few of them.
>
> Never saw one that I remember. I'm sure there were plenty, but they're
> mostly active at night in the desert, I believe.

That's true during the heat of the summer, but in Spring and Autumn they're
more active during the day. It has to do with regulating their body temp or
something.

[Big John]

Dan

I hate to say it but in '52 there were no F-86's on Willie Airpatch. I
was a Jet Instrutor there and only jets we had were F-80A/B's and
T-33's. None were supersonic under any flight condition.

The closest F-85's were at Nellis.

Big John

`````````````````````````````````````````````````` ````````````````````

On Wed, 17 May 2006 06:39:31 -0500, "Dan Luke"
> wrote:

>
>"Kyle Boatright" wrote:
>>..the F-86, with far more engine power and a swept wing was *barely*
>>supersonic, and only in a steep dive.
>
>Back in 1952, I was a little kid living on Williams AFB in Arizona. In
>those days, nobody made so much fuss about noise, and the F-86 jocks on the
>base regularly made everyone jump with mach 1+ dives. We kids loved it.

[Big John]

Dudley

I've heard nothing about the broad with the jocks in T-birds. Have you
heard any feed back?

As a new 2nd Lt I took a P-40N to almost 25K and rolled over with full
power straight down. Pulled out about 7K and never came close to any
mach one.

Looking back stupid, stupid, atupid.

I had heard you could out dive a Zero and wanted to check it out.

Still recovering from shoulder operation.

Big John
`````````````````````````````````````````````````` `

On Wed, 17 May 2006 14:07:29 GMT, "Dudley Henriques"
> wrote:

>
>"Boris" > wrote in message
ups.com...
>> Do any readers know what particular plane in World War 2,
>> was rumored to have broke the sound barrier ?
>
>I might be perhaps unique on the group to answer this question, as I had a
>P51D out to .75 during an O2 failure some years back. During the post event
>investigation with some friends from North American , this subject came up
>several times and was openly discussed.
>First of all, no prop fighter ever made it out to mach 1.
>
>I had a friend, Herb Fisher, who did high speed dive testing using various
>prop configurations, in a P47 Thunderbolt. Herb didn't find a prop that
>would make it through the drag rise between .90 and mach 1. Several types of
>prop were tried. All failed. I had another good friend, Erik Shilling, who
>flew with Chennault in China, who had his best friend die diving a P40 when
>the prop tips went into transonic shock.
>
>The Brits tried it at Boscombe Down with Spits after the war. Same result.
>As the prop tips entered critical mach through tangental velocity, the drag
>curve became intensive. That, coupled with propeller shock denied all
>propeller driven fighters supersonic flight.
>As for the jets;
>
>Much has been written pertaining to the early German jets. One German pilot
>(Hans Mutke)swore he exceeded mach 1 in the ME262. Investigation revealed he
>honestly believed this.
>What happened to him was that his aircraft had exceeded the pressure rise in
>his pitot system as he was diving and he misread the instruments. US
>engineers have absolutely proven that the 262's basic design was not
>conducive to supersonic flight, again due to drag rise.
>As for my experience in the 51, I had a walking stick, a potential overspeed
>condition, and compressibility onset. I barely made it out alive, and I
>would never want to do it again :-)
>George Welch was the first to go Mach 1 in the prototype F86. Yeager
>followed in level flight several days later.
>Dudley Henriques
>

[.Blueskies.]

"Big John" > wrote in message ...
>
> Dudley
>
> I've heard nothing about the broad with the jocks in T-birds. Have you
> heard any feed back?
>
> As a new 2nd Lt I took a P-40N to almost 25K and rolled over with full
> power straight down. Pulled out about 7K and never came close to any
> mach one.
>
> Looking back stupid, stupid, atupid.
>
> I had heard you could out dive a Zero and wanted to check it out.
>
> Still recovering from shoulder operation.
>
> Big John
> `````````````````````````````````````````````````` `
>

You mean that pullout damaged your shoulder and you are still recovering from the operation?

Just kidding ;-)

Went to the AirZoo the other day to see an ASME presentation commemorating the wing fold mechanism of the F4F-4 Wildcat
(http://www.airzoo.org/news/asme-award). It was apparently a unique and space efficient way to fold a wing while easily
maintaining structural integrity. An interesting fact came out about the Zero: When the Zero was flying ~250-300 mph the
controls would become so stiff that the pilot would end up bending the stick trying to do a high G pullout, thus the
reason the Wildcat, P-40, etc could do the dive away trick. The Wildcat could dive at WOT and not exceed any
limitations, and during testing folks bent the wing at 12 plus Gs and then couldn't fold it back...

[Dudley Henriques]

Hi John;
Hope all's been well with you and yours.

The pilot killed diving the P40 was Pete Adkinson of the AVG. Erik told me
Pete went up one morning to "wake up the field". Pete climbed to 18K and
entered a split s from cruise airspeed.
Erik said he heard a sound like he had never heard before coming from a 40
in a dive. There was a muffled explosion and the airplane disintegrated
killing Pete instantly.
Erik was the investigating officer on the crash. There was no over speed.
The prop was in relatively high pitch but not at the stops.
Erik surmised that Pete had over redlined the airplane (the P40 was redlined
at 480 on this model)
What probably happened was that some of the cowl fasteners opened, letting
in high velocity air that literally blew the bird apart, at least this was
what Erik said in the final report.
I think he was right.
Pete most likely got the tip rotation plane velocity coupled with the
forward velocity vector supersonic. That would account for the high pitched
moaning sound heard on the ground.
There wasn't much left, but Erik noted no thrown rods.

About outdiving the Zero in the P40. Could be done easily. Saburo Sakai was
a member of the Fellowship. He told me the Zeke's ailerons froze solid above
300. Chennault's tactics although never to my knowledge used in China
against the Zero, were to dive in fast on the nip fighters, blow through
their pursuit curve inside guns range and blast away through the overshoot,
then dive, gaining energy and climb back to altitude outside the fight.

The new gal on the Thunderbirds is Major Nicole Malachowski.She's on the
right wing. F15 instructor, and VERY good stick!! We're all wishing her the
best of luck.
Dudley



"Big John" > wrote in message
...
>
> Dudley
>
> I've heard nothing about the broad with the jocks in T-birds. Have you
> heard any feed back?
>
> As a new 2nd Lt I took a P-40N to almost 25K and rolled over with full
> power straight down. Pulled out about 7K and never came close to any
> mach one.
>
> Looking back stupid, stupid, atupid.
>
> I had heard you could out dive a Zero and wanted to check it out.
>
> Still recovering from shoulder operation.
>
> Big John
> `````````````````````````````````````````````````` `
>
> On Wed, 17 May 2006 14:07:29 GMT, "Dudley Henriques"
> > wrote:
>
>>
>>"Boris" > wrote in message
ups.com...
>>> Do any readers know what particular plane in World War 2,
>>> was rumored to have broke the sound barrier ?
>>
>>I might be perhaps unique on the group to answer this question, as I had a
>>P51D out to .75 during an O2 failure some years back. During the post
>>event
>>investigation with some friends from North American , this subject came up
>>several times and was openly discussed.
>>First of all, no prop fighter ever made it out to mach 1.
>>
>>I had a friend, Herb Fisher, who did high speed dive testing using various
>>prop configurations, in a P47 Thunderbolt. Herb didn't find a prop that
>>would make it through the drag rise between .90 and mach 1. Several types
>>of
>>prop were tried. All failed. I had another good friend, Erik Shilling, who
>>flew with Chennault in China, who had his best friend die diving a P40
>>when
>>the prop tips went into transonic shock.
>>
>>The Brits tried it at Boscombe Down with Spits after the war. Same result.
>>As the prop tips entered critical mach through tangental velocity, the
>>drag
>>curve became intensive. That, coupled with propeller shock denied all
>>propeller driven fighters supersonic flight.
>>As for the jets;
>>
>>Much has been written pertaining to the early German jets. One German
>>pilot
>>(Hans Mutke)swore he exceeded mach 1 in the ME262. Investigation revealed
>>he
>>honestly believed this.
>>What happened to him was that his aircraft had exceeded the pressure rise
>>in
>>his pitot system as he was diving and he misread the instruments. US
>>engineers have absolutely proven that the 262's basic design was not
>>conducive to supersonic flight, again due to drag rise.
>>As for my experience in the 51, I had a walking stick, a potential
>>overspeed
>>condition, and compressibility onset. I barely made it out alive, and I
>>would never want to do it again :-)
>>George Welch was the first to go Mach 1 in the prototype F86. Yeager
>>followed in level flight several days later.
>>Dudley Henriques
>>
>

[Dudley Henriques]

If you REALLY want to see a bad shoulder, try cranking up the gear on an F4F
!!
:-)))
Dudley Henriques

".Blueskies." > wrote in message
om...
>
> "Big John" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> Dudley
>>
>> I've heard nothing about the broad with the jocks in T-birds. Have you
>> heard any feed back?
>>
>> As a new 2nd Lt I took a P-40N to almost 25K and rolled over with full
>> power straight down. Pulled out about 7K and never came close to any
>> mach one.
>>
>> Looking back stupid, stupid, atupid.
>>
>> I had heard you could out dive a Zero and wanted to check it out.
>>
>> Still recovering from shoulder operation.
>>
>> Big John
>> `````````````````````````````````````````````````` `
>>
>
> You mean that pullout damaged your shoulder and you are still recovering
> from the operation?
>
> Just kidding ;-)
>
> Went to the AirZoo the other day to see an ASME presentation commemorating
> the wing fold mechanism of the F4F-4 Wildcat
> (http://www.airzoo.org/news/asme-award). It was apparently a unique and
> space efficient way to fold a wing while easily maintaining structural
> integrity. An interesting fact came out about the Zero: When the Zero was
> flying ~250-300 mph the controls would become so stiff that the pilot
> would end up bending the stick trying to do a high G pullout, thus the
> reason the Wildcat, P-40, etc could do the dive away trick. The Wildcat
> could dive at WOT and not exceed any limitations, and during testing folks
> bent the wing at 12 plus Gs and then couldn't fold it back...
>

[Big John]

Dudley

Some more trivia.

In Jug if you got to limiting Mach the bird tucked and could not be
stopped with elevator or reduction of power.

Procedure was to go to full power (guess this gave some airflow over
elevator and let you slowly pull the nose to a lessor angle of dive
where air resistance continued to slow bird down and you regained full
control.

This was all in ground school in RTU so never went up and tried it out
:o)

I only saw the initial announcement of the gal in T-birds and nothing
since.

Guess they put her on the easy wing (I could fly a lot smoother and
closer on right wing with less work than left wing which took more
careful control movement).

Hope she does good for the grueling airshow circuit which takes a lot
out of you.

My shoulder is the rotator cuff that I fell on a year ago. Doc said he
had never seen one so torn up and he has been doing them for years.

The best to everyone (even the lurkers :o)


Big John
`````````````````````````````````````````````````` ``````````````````````````````


On Fri, 19 May 2006 00:37:31 GMT, "Dudley Henriques"
> wrote:

>Hi John;
>Hope all's been well with you and yours.


----clip----

[Dudley Henriques]

Hi John;
I have a bit of time in the Jug, but not much. I ferried an N out of a small
field in South America and up into the states once a while back. What a hog!
Very good rate of roll above 250 and a pleasure to land if you didn't drag
it in.

The word is that the Major is doing just fine on the right wing.
I take it by saying it's the easy position, you mean you flew wing on the
right side to an element lead and in the old fighting wing.
Now a days we use a wide combat spread with lead changes based on who sees
what first. Either side can go wing or lead in a heartbeat.
Hope your shoulder comes along and gets better for you.
Dudley

"Big John" > wrote in message
...
> Dudley
>
> Some more trivia.
>
> In Jug if you got to limiting Mach the bird tucked and could not be
> stopped with elevator or reduction of power.
>
> Procedure was to go to full power (guess this gave some airflow over
> elevator and let you slowly pull the nose to a lessor angle of dive
> where air resistance continued to slow bird down and you regained full
> control.
>
> This was all in ground school in RTU so never went up and tried it out
> :o)
>
> I only saw the initial announcement of the gal in T-birds and nothing
> since.
>
> Guess they put her on the easy wing (I could fly a lot smoother and
> closer on right wing with less work than left wing which took more
> careful control movement).
>
> Hope she does good for the grueling airshow circuit which takes a lot
> out of you.
>
> My shoulder is the rotator cuff that I fell on a year ago. Doc said he
> had never seen one so torn up and he has been doing them for years.
>
> The best to everyone (even the lurkers :o)
>
>
> Big John
> `````````````````````````````````````````````````` ``````````````````````````````
>
>
> On Fri, 19 May 2006 00:37:31 GMT, "Dudley Henriques"
> > wrote:
>
>>Hi John;
>>Hope all's been well with you and yours.
>
>
> ----clip----
>
>

[Big John]

Dudley

On right wing. It was just easier to fly looking over throttle than
looking away from throttle. Many times on a show pass we would tuck it
with a foot clearance.

Can still remember pitching off deck for landing. Made us stop that
here in States because to many were bending it to tight and crashing
due to stalling :o( I can still remember that soft popping of the
Merlin in idle in pitch up pattern. Sound of music to my ears.

Tight finger four was basically for show and combat spread let leader
clear front 180 and #2, 3 & 4 cleared the right and left of rear of
formation. If an attack was detected from rear the flight turned into
the attacking aircraft and the 'fur ball' started.

The bar joke with the '51 drivers was that they used C-47's to escort
the Jugs to 20K where the turbo gave them full sea level power and
they could hold their own in a dog fight

All of this was a long time ago in a land far away :o) Haven't thought
about some of it in years.

The best

Big John
`````````````````````````````````````````````````` ````````````````````````````````
On Sat, 20 May 2006 00:29:34 GMT, "Dudley Henriques"
> wrote:

>Hi John;
>I have a bit of time in the Jug, but not much. I ferried an N out of a small
>field in South America and up into the states once a while back. What a hog!
>Very good rate of roll above 250 and a pleasure to land if you didn't drag
>it in.
>
>The word is that the Major is doing just fine on the right wing.
>I take it by saying it's the easy position, you mean you flew wing on the
>right side to an element lead and in the old fighting wing.
>Now a days we use a wide combat spread with lead changes based on who sees
>what first. Either side can go wing or lead in a heartbeat.
>Hope your shoulder comes along and gets better for you.
>Dudley
>
>"Big John" > wrote in message
...
>> Dudley
>>
>> Some more trivia.
>>
>> In Jug if you got to limiting Mach the bird tucked and could not be
>> stopped with elevator or reduction of power.
>>
>> Procedure was to go to full power (guess this gave some airflow over
>> elevator and let you slowly pull the nose to a lessor angle of dive
>> where air resistance continued to slow bird down and you regained full
>> control.
>>
>> This was all in ground school in RTU so never went up and tried it out
>> :o)
>>
>> I only saw the initial announcement of the gal in T-birds and nothing
>> since.
>>
>> Guess they put her on the easy wing (I could fly a lot smoother and
>> closer on right wing with less work than left wing which took more
>> careful control movement).
>>
>> Hope she does good for the grueling airshow circuit which takes a lot
>> out of you.
>>
>> My shoulder is the rotator cuff that I fell on a year ago. Doc said he
>> had never seen one so torn up and he has been doing them for years.
>>
>> The best to everyone (even the lurkers :o)
>>
>>
>> Big John
>> `````````````````````````````````````````````````` ``````````````````````````````
>>
>>
>> On Fri, 19 May 2006 00:37:31 GMT, "Dudley Henriques"
>> > wrote:
>>
>>>Hi John;
>>>Hope all's been well with you and yours.
>>
>>
>> ----clip----
>>
>>
>

[Dudley Henriques]

"Big John" > wrote in message
...
> Dudley
>
> On right wing. It was just easier to fly looking over throttle than
> looking away from throttle. Many times on a show pass we would tuck it
> with a foot clearance.

I also favor the right side. It just feels better and more natural tucked in
there.

>
> Can still remember pitching off deck for landing. Made us stop that
> here in States because to many were bending it to tight and crashing
> due to stalling :o( I can still remember that soft popping of the
> Merlin in idle in pitch up pattern. Sound of music to my ears.

The Merlin loads up easily in idle. On my bird for a show pattern, I'd
usually hit the break on initial at about 250 carrying about 30 inches,
coming back to no less than 15 inches in the pitch. Anything less and I'd
start loading up the plugs. You could clean them out easily enough with
power, but the -7 would back up and start popping you a reminder if you
idled it back and left it there long enough :-)
>
> Tight finger four was basically for show and combat spread let leader
> clear front 180 and #2, 3 & 4 cleared the right and left of rear of
> formation. If an attack was detected from rear the flight turned into
> the attacking aircraft and the 'fur ball' started.

Oh, for the good ole' days!! I was a civilian as you know and never went to
war in the fighters I flew, but I did some "consulting" for the ACM guys
doing lead in on maneuvering.
>
> The bar joke with the '51 drivers was that they used C-47's to escort
> the Jugs to 20K where the turbo gave them full sea level power and
> they could hold their own in a dog fight

Yeah, the Jug was good up there, and nothing short of an iron ingot could
outdive the thing :-)


>
> All of this was a long time ago in a land far away :o) Haven't thought
> about some of it in years.

I know what you mean.
Sometimes, as I sit here in retirement, it's like it all happened in another
life somewhere :-)

Oh well......there's always yard work!!! :-)))

All the best,
Dudley

[.Blueskies.]

"Dudley Henriques" > wrote in message
ink.net...
> If you REALLY want to see a bad shoulder, try cranking up the gear on an F4F !!
> :-)))
> Dudley Henriques
>

Yes, they mentioned that also. I guess the book says 30 cranks, but the pilot ("Flash" Gordon) said it was 27 and a
half...

Thanks!

[Tony]

Tell you what: for those who had been there and done that, someone else
should be doing their yard work. Their gardens should be tended during
their lifetimes, not just their graves at its end.

Thank you isn't nearly a strong enough phrase for those we'll honor the
end of this month.

[Dudley Henriques]

"Tony" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Tell you what: for those who had been there and done that, someone else
> should be doing their yard work. Their gardens should be tended during
> their lifetimes, not just their graves at its end.
>
> Thank you isn't nearly a strong enough phrase for those we'll honor the
> end of this month.

..............and we've just lost one of the best.
Chris Patterakis died on May 9th.
I'm sure many of you wouldn't know his name, as he was one of the "quiet"
guys out here.
Chris led the Thunderbirds among his many other major achievements; was one
of the finest pilots, and one of the finest guys ever to wear the uniform.
On his tombstone it should read,
"He retired a Major because he believed in the truth."
Dudley Henriques

[Big John]

Dudley


----clip----
Merlin in idle in pitch up pattern. Sound of music to my ears.
>
>The Merlin loads up easily in idle. On my bird for a show pattern, I'd
>usually hit the break on initial at about 250 carrying about 30 inches,
>coming back to no less than 15 inches in the pitch. Anything less and I'd
>start loading up the plugs. You could clean them out easily enough with
>power, but the -7 would back up and start popping you a reminder if you
>idled it back and left it there long enough :-)


Before I quit flying the '51, they started restricting us to 15 or so
inches in pattern until we had field made. If you were at idle all the
way around they found that with the short stacks they would suck in
cold air at idle and warp the exhaust valves many times.

This was not a problem in combat as average life of engine was
something like 75 hours as I remember. After War they set up a lot of
rules to extend life of parts to keep peace time costs down.

We've beaten this thread to death so will let die an honorable death.

Have a good week end.

Big John


-----clip----

[Matt Barrow]

"Dudley Henriques" > wrote in message
k.net...
> .............and we've just lost one of the best.
> Chris Patterakis died on May 9th.
> I'm sure many of you wouldn't know his name, as he was one of the "quiet"
> guys out here.
> Chris led the Thunderbirds among his many other major achievements; was
> one of the finest pilots, and one of the finest guys ever to wear the
> uniform.
> On his tombstone it should read,
> "He retired a Major because he believed in the truth."

Care to elaborate on that last part?

[Dudley Henriques]

"Matt Barrow" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Dudley Henriques" > wrote in message
> k.net...
>> .............and we've just lost one of the best.
>> Chris Patterakis died on May 9th.
>> I'm sure many of you wouldn't know his name, as he was one of the "quiet"
>> guys out here.
>> Chris led the Thunderbirds among his many other major achievements; was
>> one of the finest pilots, and one of the finest guys ever to wear the
>> uniform.
>> On his tombstone it should read,
>> "He retired a Major because he believed in the truth."
>
> Care to elaborate on that last part?

I'm sorry. As much as I'd like to I can't.
Dudley Henriques

[RST Engineering]

"Matt Barrow" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Dudley Henriques" > wrote in message
> k.net...
>> .............and we've just lost one of the best.
>> Chris Patterakis died on May 9th.
>> I'm sure many of you wouldn't know his name, as he was one of the "quiet"
>> guys out here.
>> Chris led the Thunderbirds among his many other major achievements; was
>> one of the finest pilots, and one of the finest guys ever to wear the
>> uniform.
>> On his tombstone it should read,
>> "He retired a Major because he believed in the truth."
>
> Care to elaborate on that last part?

If you were ever in the military with a SOB for a CO, you'd understand.

Jim

[Matt Barrow]

"RST Engineering" > wrote in message
.. .
>
> "Matt Barrow" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>>> On his tombstone it should read,
>>> "He retired a Major because he believed in the truth."
>>
>> Care to elaborate on that last part?
>
> If you were ever in the military with a SOB for a CO, you'd understand.
>

Didn't say that I didn't understand, I was asking for specifics.

BTW, how do you know I wasn't in the military with an SOB for a CO (often
that's redundant)?


--
"I had one fundamental question about
economics: Why are some places prosperous
and thriving while others just suck? It's not
a matter of brains. No part of the earth (with
the possible exception of Brentwood) is dumber
than Beverly Hills, and the residents are wading
in gravy. Meanwhile in Russia, where chess is
a spectator sport, they're boiling stones for soup.
" -- P.J. O'Rourke in Eat the Rich

[Bob Moore]

RST Engineering wrote
> If you were ever in the military with a SOB for a CO, you'd
> understand.

One of the reasons that I became an airline pilot in 1967.

Bob Moore

[Bob Moore]

Matt Barrow wrote
> BTW, how do you know I wasn't in the military with an SOB for a CO
> (often that's redundant)?

It could almost be assumed that you were by looking at the ratings on
your pilot certificate.....no single engine. :-)

Bob Moore