Doors popping open in flight

[bob]

How serious is it on small twin engines with only one door? Or with 2
doors, for that matter?

A friend of mine tells me that he once had a twin engine Piper crash to
investigate due to ditching. It was later learned upon the conclusion of
the investigation that a passenger in the back seat was trying to switch
places with someone in the front and the door inadvertently popped open. At
that point the investigator determined, from his own similar experience,
that the plane sunk like a rock due to critical disruption of the airflow
to that could not be corrected in flight.
--The door could not be closed again!---

As for my friend with his similar experience, his friend's hand was all
bloody from trying to hold it closed as much as he could. Fortunately, they
made a safe emergency landing at an island the just happened to be nearby.

I've only flow small single engines and had NO IDEA how serious this could
be. They don't teach you that in flight school. Or is it because single
engines with only one door do not react the same as the twins.

Tell me the straight skinny so I know next time I go flying.

Thanks

[Mortimer Schnerd, RN]

bob wrote:
> As for my friend with his similar experience, his friend's hand was all
> bloody from trying to hold it closed as much as he could. Fortunately, they
> made a safe emergency landing at an island the just happened to be nearby.


WTH? Why did he need to hold the door closed? The slipstream will hold it
closed. There may be a gap but I defy you to open that door in flight. Can you
open the door of your car going down the interstate? Try it at twice or three
times the speed.

I've had doors open in both Cherokees and Cessna singles and it's nothing more
than an aggravation. If it's raining you'll get wet. Otherwise you'll just
notice the noise and the draft.

I've had the door pop open in the Apache and the Aztec and there's an
aerodynamic buffet. It still isn't an emergency; just an annoyance.

I've never had the door pop open in a 400 series Cessna so I can't guess what
that would be like though I would think it's be more of a problem as the door
hinges top and bottom rather than along the leading edge. It ssems to me the
most likely scenario would be the top portion popping open rather than both
since there's a pin that pretty much precludes the lower section letting go.

Every time I've ever had a door open in flight I've gone on to my destination.
Trying to latch it tight in flight is an exercise in futility. OTOH, nobody is
ever going to fall out unless you've got aerobatics in mind. So fuggetaboutit.




--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN

[Peter R.]

bob > wrote:

> I've only flow small single engines and had NO IDEA how serious this could
> be. They don't teach you that in flight school. Or is it because single
> engines with only one door do not react the same as the twins.
>
> Tell me the straight skinny so I know next time I go flying.

Pilot distraction is probably the only real danger in these cases, single
engine or twin. A cool head and proper prioritization will prevail every
time.

I fly a Bonanza V35 and have had the door pop open, the cargo door pop
open, and even the passenger window (second row of seats) pop completely
open and lock outward with a 5 year old child sitting next to it while
launching into IMC.

The door and the cargo door only open a fraction of an inch, due to the
slip stream and the only distraction here is a loud, cold cockpit. In
these cases the pilot must put the distraction on the back burner, fly the
aircraft, and decide to either land immediately and close the door on the
ground or continue to the destination with the noise and free air
conditioning.

With regards to the window opening, this initially scared the poop out of
me because it did so with a very loud BOOM seconds after liftoff. With a
child sitting next to the window and the fact that it was all the way open,
I decided to level and stabilize the aircraft, engage the AP, and attempt
one shot at closing it.

I then called ATC to request the level off and left turn away from the
departure corridor (class C airport) and explained that the window had just
opened. Upon approval I engaged the AP and monitored the aircraft for 30
seconds to ensure altitude and airspeed were stable. Once I was
comfortable that the aircraft was flying with the AP, I unbuckled, reached
around to the right rear passenger seat, grabbed the bar, and with way too
much force (thinking the slip stream would put up a fight), slammed the
window home and locked. It was actually pretty easy and quick.

Another call to ATC informing him of my success and we were again on our
way.

--
Peter

[B A R R Y]

bob wrote:

>
> I've only flow small single engines and had NO IDEA how serious this could
> be. They don't teach you that in flight school.

They did at my flight school (Jeppesen program / 141 school). My CFI
popped the door on a PA-28, had me look it up in the Emergency
Procedures POH section, and close it via the book. The airplane flew
fine with the door open.

I don't know why a twin would be all that different. Two weeks ago, I
witnessed a Cessna twin have the forward baggage door pop open on
departure. He asked for priority on the CTAF, flew the pattern and
landed uneventfully.

[Jim Macklin]

On a single-engine, a door opening is not serious, but a
twin with a door open and the engine on the opposite side
might get interesting. The open door would probably raise
Vmca because of the air flow disruption on the side where
maximum rudder effectiveness would be required.


--
James H. Macklin
ATP,CFI,A&P

--
The people think the Constitution protects their rights;
But government sees it as an obstacle to be overcome.
some support
http://www.usdoj.gov/olc/secondamendment2.htm
See http://www.fija.org/ more about your rights and duties.


"bob" > wrote in message
. ..
| How serious is it on small twin engines with only one
door? Or with 2
| doors, for that matter?
|
| A friend of mine tells me that he once had a twin engine
Piper crash to
| investigate due to ditching. It was later learned upon
the conclusion of
| the investigation that a passenger in the back seat was
trying to switch
| places with someone in the front and the door
inadvertently popped open. At
| that point the investigator determined, from his own
similar experience,
| that the plane sunk like a rock due to critical disruption
of the airflow
| to that could not be corrected in flight.
| --The door could not be closed again!---
|
| As for my friend with his similar experience, his
friend's hand was all
| bloody from trying to hold it closed as much as he could.
Fortunately, they
| made a safe emergency landing at an island the just
happened to be nearby.
|
| I've only flow small single engines and had NO IDEA how
serious this could
| be. They don't teach you that in flight school. Or is it
because single
| engines with only one door do not react the same as the
twins.
|
| Tell me the straight skinny so I know next time I go
flying.
|
| Thanks
|
|

[Stubby]

Peter R. wrote:
> bob > wrote:
>
>> I've only flow small single engines and had NO IDEA how serious this could
>> be. They don't teach you that in flight school. Or is it because single
>> engines with only one door do not react the same as the twins.
>>
>> Tell me the straight skinny so I know next time I go flying.
>
> Pilot distraction is probably the only real danger in these cases, single
> engine or twin. A cool head and proper prioritization will prevail every
> time.
<...>
I agree with the pilot distraction comment. In fact, my seaplane
instructor advised me to be certain both doors (C172) were unlocked and
ready to open quickly. Things can happen fairly fast and sometimes you
have to use the right seat to approach a dock or to hook a mooring.

[karl gruber]

The real problem with a twin is if the forward baggage door opens, breaks
off due to air loads, and goes through the prop.

There have been several accidents due to this and all the ones I remember
were fatal. There was also an R-22 helicopter here in the NW that just had
the window come off the door a couple of years ago. That window went through
the tail rotor and caused a fatal crash. (This particular window was an
unapproved modification)

Many Cessna 206 and 207 aircraft have had their rear cargo door open in
flight. This is a suicide door and hinges the door to the rear. In this case
the door slams back against the fuselage and causes extensive damage, but
the airplane is controllable.

Best,
Karl
ATP,CFI,ETC
"Curator" N185KG


"bob" > wrote in message
. ..
> How serious is it on small twin engines with only one door? Or with 2
> doors, for that matter?
>
> A friend of mine tells me that he once had a twin engine Piper crash to
> investigate due to ditching. It was later learned upon the conclusion of
> the investigation that a passenger in the back seat was trying to switch
> places with someone in the front and the door inadvertently popped open.
> At that point the investigator determined, from his own similar
> experience, that the plane sunk like a rock due to critical disruption of
> the airflow to that could not be corrected in flight.
> --The door could not be closed again!---
>
> As for my friend with his similar experience, his friend's hand was all
> bloody from trying to hold it closed as much as he could. Fortunately,
> they made a safe emergency landing at an island the just happened to be
> nearby.
>
> I've only flow small single engines and had NO IDEA how serious this
> could be. They don't teach you that in flight school. Or is it because
> single engines with only one door do not react the same as the twins.
>
> Tell me the straight skinny so I know next time I go flying.
>
> Thanks
>

[Thomas Borchert]

Bob,

> As for my friend with his similar experience, his friend's hand was all
> bloody from trying to hold it closed as much as he could.
>

Why did he try?

Normally, the car-type doors will open a certain amount and stay there in
the airflow. No big deal. Except for some planes, of course: I wouldn't
want to see it in the Tobago I fly, which has gull wing doors. Experiences
range from the door and its frame seriously getting bent to the door
ripping off and hitting the stabilizer. Not good.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[Allen]

"bob" > wrote in message
. ..
> How serious is it on small twin engines with only one door? Or with 2
> doors, for that matter?
>
> A friend of mine tells me that he once had a twin engine Piper crash to
> investigate due to ditching. It was later learned upon the conclusion of
> the investigation that a passenger in the back seat was trying to switch
> places with someone in the front and the door inadvertently popped open.
> At that point the investigator determined, from his own similar
> experience, that the plane sunk like a rock due to critical disruption of
> the airflow to that could not be corrected in flight.
> --The door could not be closed again!---
>
> As for my friend with his similar experience, his friend's hand was all
> bloody from trying to hold it closed as much as he could. Fortunately,
> they made a safe emergency landing at an island the just happened to be
> nearby.
>
> I've only flow small single engines and had NO IDEA how serious this
> could be. They don't teach you that in flight school. Or is it because
> single engines with only one door do not react the same as the twins.
>
> Tell me the straight skinny so I know next time I go flying.
>
> Thanks

1965 Beech Travelair, two adults with bags, full fuel, still well under
gross, 500' MSL, gear up, flaps up, nice cool spring day, normal climb out =
1100 FPM, door pops open = 300 FPM, been there, done that :-(

Allen

[B A R R Y]

Mortimer Schnerd, RN wrote:

>
> Every time I've ever had a door open in flight I've gone on to my destination.
> Trying to latch it tight in flight is an exercise in futility.

It's actually easy if a POH procedure exists.

The ones I've actually used went something like:

XX knots IAS
cabin vents closed
storm window open
shut door

The closed vents, proper speed, and open window create a negative
pressure in the cabin, allowing the door to close easily.

The opinion that it's not much an comfort issue will not be shared by
the back seat pax. I flew the pattern in a PA28-180 with an open door,
and 100 MPH wind in the face was no fun. <G> That particular pilot
simply landed and shut it.

[Robert M. Gary]

I learned to fly in the summer so we always took off with the doors
open. It really helped keep us cooler. I was surprised teh first time I
found out that most pilots close the doors before flight, even when its
not cold.

-Robert

[Ol Shy & Bashful]

Bob
Some excellent replies here and it sounds like some, by pilots who have
experienced various doors opening, without disastrous result.
I've had a number of doors come open on quite a variety of aircraft
(does that say something about how really fragile they are?) and not
much more than a fright to either me, or the PAX. As part of my own
training regimine, I cause a door to open for many of the flights I
give with students to show them the non-existent danger or proper
procedures to close said door again.
Have had baggage doors pop open on several aircraft and had to land to
close them again. No big deal but certainly annoying. Open doors on
some aricraft that disrupted the airflow, like the Pipers, and
Beechcraft with the cabin doors that curved up on the fuselage. It is
more of a fright factor than anything. Vertical cabin doors are nearly
impossible to open more than a handspan in flight with airflow pushing
them shut.... Cabin windows, like the emergency exit on Barons, cause
nothing more than a loud roar and scare crap out of whoever is sitting
there....especially over the Sierras at night out of Tahoe<ggg>
I participated in an accident investigation years ago on a Beech Queen
Air A65/80 that crashed after a baggage door opened in flight shortly
after takeoff at ABQ. It turned out the baggage was spilling out of the
compartment into the left propellor causing an engine failure. It was
not an aircraft design problem causing the crash, but one of pilot
error. I got involved simply because the aircraft that crashed was one
digit away from the one I was flying at the time and we used it to
attempt duplication of the crash scenario to see if it was aircraft
design or pilot error.
Bottom line is, I don't think an unexpected door opening on any
aircraft is cause for crash or panic. Structural integrity may be at
risk in some high speed exotic aircraft, but I don't know of any that
are that critically affected aerodynamically.
Same can be said of instrument failure and a pilot doing the panic
routine just because they didn't have the airspeed, or altimeter, or
compass, or ????
If you are still concerned, go up in the aircraft you normally fly with
an instructor or experienced pilot, and crack a door to see what it
does. If nothing else it will prove
how difficult it is to open the door enough to cause danger.
I remember the time whan I tried to make a parachute jump from the
backseat of a Piper TriPacer back in the early 60's and ......well
thats a story for another time after we have a San Pablo.....ggg
Ol Shy & Bashful

[Bob Gardner]

Having a door pop open should be a non-event. Air pressure will keep it from
opening more than an inch or two, the noise is distracting, papers fly
around the cockpit, and passengers freak out. IMHO it is a waste of time and
energy to attempt closure in flight...land and do it right.

There will be disturbed airflow over the horizontal stabilizer on the
open-door side, but nothing that the pilot cannot deal with.

Bob Gardner



"bob" > wrote in message
. ..
> How serious is it on small twin engines with only one door? Or with 2
> doors, for that matter?
>
> A friend of mine tells me that he once had a twin engine Piper crash to
> investigate due to ditching. It was later learned upon the conclusion of
> the investigation that a passenger in the back seat was trying to switch
> places with someone in the front and the door inadvertently popped open.
> At that point the investigator determined, from his own similar
> experience, that the plane sunk like a rock due to critical disruption of
> the airflow to that could not be corrected in flight.
> --The door could not be closed again!---
>
> As for my friend with his similar experience, his friend's hand was all
> bloody from trying to hold it closed as much as he could. Fortunately,
> they made a safe emergency landing at an island the just happened to be
> nearby.
>
> I've only flow small single engines and had NO IDEA how serious this
> could be. They don't teach you that in flight school. Or is it because
> single engines with only one door do not react the same as the twins.
>
> Tell me the straight skinny so I know next time I go flying.
>
> Thanks
>

[Robert M. Gary]

> Having a door pop open should be a non-event.

There was a Mooney crash a few years back caused by the baggage door
opening in flight. Apparently the airflow over the tail was disrupted
on final and caused the crash. If the baggage door opens in flight the
recommendation in the Mooney community now is to keep your speed up on
final (which in a Mooney means find a really long runway).

-Robert

[tom418]

Several years ago, in Plane & Pilot magazine, there was an article on a
six-place Piper (Saratoga?). One of the pictures showed the upper latch of
the cabin door clearly unlatched, with the resulting gap visible. Apparently
they had no problems (except for the noise)

A few years ago, I departed IFR in my Seneca, and the forward door became
unlatched. There was a lot of wind noise, but like other posters here said,
there was no need
to hold the door open. I was flying from Palmer MA, to Islip, NY. (Turning
back to Palmer was out of the question) I made a request for a landing at
Groton, CT.
The controllers put my IFR in suspense, and
after landing I was on my merry (and quieter) way.

"bob" > wrote in message
. ..
> How serious is it on small twin engines with only one door? Or with 2
> doors, for that matter?
>
> A friend of mine tells me that he once had a twin engine Piper crash to
> investigate due to ditching. It was later learned upon the conclusion of
> the investigation that a passenger in the back seat was trying to switch
> places with someone in the front and the door inadvertently popped open.
At
> that point the investigator determined, from his own similar experience,
> that the plane sunk like a rock due to critical disruption of the airflow
> to that could not be corrected in flight.
> --The door could not be closed again!---
>
> As for my friend with his similar experience, his friend's hand was all
> bloody from trying to hold it closed as much as he could. Fortunately,
they
> made a safe emergency landing at an island the just happened to be nearby.
>
> I've only flow small single engines and had NO IDEA how serious this
could
> be. They don't teach you that in flight school. Or is it because single
> engines with only one door do not react the same as the twins.
>
> Tell me the straight skinny so I know next time I go flying.
>
> Thanks
>
>

[Jim Macklin]

Baggage can also exit the nose and go through the prop.
Beech added a second internal safety latch so the door only
open about an inch. The nose baggage door is streamlined
and does not cause too much air flow disruption.

The 206 forward door should be closed and locked on top of
the rear door of the pair and should not shield the aft
door. But I have seen this after the fact and suspect that
the pilot was trying to open the doors to drop something.


--
James H. Macklin
ATP,CFI,A&P

--
The people think the Constitution protects their rights;
But government sees it as an obstacle to be overcome.
some support
http://www.usdoj.gov/olc/secondamendment2.htm
See http://www.fija.org/ more about your rights and duties.


"karl gruber" > wrote in message
...
| The real problem with a twin is if the forward baggage
door opens, breaks
| off due to air loads, and goes through the prop.
|
| There have been several accidents due to this and all the
ones I remember
| were fatal. There was also an R-22 helicopter here in the
NW that just had
| the window come off the door a couple of years ago. That
window went through
| the tail rotor and caused a fatal crash. (This particular
window was an
| unapproved modification)
|
| Many Cessna 206 and 207 aircraft have had their rear cargo
door open in
| flight. This is a suicide door and hinges the door to the
rear. In this case
| the door slams back against the fuselage and causes
extensive damage, but
| the airplane is controllable.
|
| Best,
| Karl
| ATP,CFI,ETC
| "Curator" N185KG
|
|
| "bob" > wrote in message
| . ..
| > How serious is it on small twin engines with only one
door? Or with 2
| > doors, for that matter?
| >
| > A friend of mine tells me that he once had a twin engine
Piper crash to
| > investigate due to ditching. It was later learned upon
the conclusion of
| > the investigation that a passenger in the back seat was
trying to switch
| > places with someone in the front and the door
inadvertently popped open.
| > At that point the investigator determined, from his own
similar
| > experience, that the plane sunk like a rock due to
critical disruption of
| > the airflow to that could not be corrected in flight.
| > --The door could not be closed again!---
| >
| > As for my friend with his similar experience, his
friend's hand was all
| > bloody from trying to hold it closed as much as he
could. Fortunately,
| > they made a safe emergency landing at an island the just
happened to be
| > nearby.
| >
| > I've only flow small single engines and had NO IDEA how
serious this
| > could be. They don't teach you that in flight school.
Or is it because
| > single engines with only one door do not react the same
as the twins.
| >
| > Tell me the straight skinny so I know next time I go
flying.
| >
| > Thanks
| >
|
|

[Jim Macklin]

The critical issue would be Vmca with a door open, it has
not been flight tested and how much Vmca will increase is
just a guess.


--
James H. Macklin
ATP,CFI,A&P

--
The people think the Constitution protects their rights;
But government sees it as an obstacle to be overcome.
some support
http://www.usdoj.gov/olc/secondamendment2.htm
See http://www.fija.org/ more about your rights and duties.


"Bob Gardner" > wrote in message
...
| Having a door pop open should be a non-event. Air pressure
will keep it from
| opening more than an inch or two, the noise is
distracting, papers fly
| around the cockpit, and passengers freak out. IMHO it is a
waste of time and
| energy to attempt closure in flight...land and do it
right.
|
| There will be disturbed airflow over the horizontal
stabilizer on the
| open-door side, but nothing that the pilot cannot deal
with.
|
| Bob Gardner
|
|
|
| "bob" > wrote in message
| . ..
| > How serious is it on small twin engines with only one
door? Or with 2
| > doors, for that matter?
| >
| > A friend of mine tells me that he once had a twin engine
Piper crash to
| > investigate due to ditching. It was later learned upon
the conclusion of
| > the investigation that a passenger in the back seat was
trying to switch
| > places with someone in the front and the door
inadvertently popped open.
| > At that point the investigator determined, from his own
similar
| > experience, that the plane sunk like a rock due to
critical disruption of
| > the airflow to that could not be corrected in flight.
| > --The door could not be closed again!---
| >
| > As for my friend with his similar experience, his
friend's hand was all
| > bloody from trying to hold it closed as much as he
could. Fortunately,
| > they made a safe emergency landing at an island the just
happened to be
| > nearby.
| >
| > I've only flow small single engines and had NO IDEA how
serious this
| > could be. They don't teach you that in flight school.
Or is it because
| > single engines with only one door do not react the same
as the twins.
| >
| > Tell me the straight skinny so I know next time I go
flying.
| >
| > Thanks
| >
|
|

[tom418]

ummm. let's change "hold the door open" to "hold the door closed" :)
"tom418" > wrote in message
news:fTmbg.130490$k%3.2538@dukeread12...
> Several years ago, in Plane & Pilot magazine, there was an article on a
> six-place Piper (Saratoga?). One of the pictures showed the upper latch of
> the cabin door clearly unlatched, with the resulting gap visible.
Apparently
> they had no problems (except for the noise)
>
> A few years ago, I departed IFR in my Seneca, and the forward door became
> unlatched. There was a lot of wind noise, but like other posters here
said,
> there was no need
> to hold the door open. I was flying from Palmer MA, to Islip, NY. (Turning
> back to Palmer was out of the question) I made a request for a landing at
> Groton, CT.
> The controllers put my IFR in suspense, and
> after landing I was on my merry (and quieter) way.
>
> "bob" > wrote in message
> . ..
> > How serious is it on small twin engines with only one door? Or with 2
> > doors, for that matter?
> >
> > A friend of mine tells me that he once had a twin engine Piper crash to
> > investigate due to ditching. It was later learned upon the conclusion
of
> > the investigation that a passenger in the back seat was trying to switch
> > places with someone in the front and the door inadvertently popped open.
> At
> > that point the investigator determined, from his own similar
experience,
> > that the plane sunk like a rock due to critical disruption of the
airflow
> > to that could not be corrected in flight.
> > --The door could not be closed again!---
> >
> > As for my friend with his similar experience, his friend's hand was all
> > bloody from trying to hold it closed as much as he could. Fortunately,
> they
> > made a safe emergency landing at an island the just happened to be
nearby.
> >
> > I've only flow small single engines and had NO IDEA how serious this
> could
> > be. They don't teach you that in flight school. Or is it because
single
> > engines with only one door do not react the same as the twins.
> >
> > Tell me the straight skinny so I know next time I go flying.
> >
> > Thanks
> >
> >
>
>

[gatt]

"bob" > wrote in message
. ..

> I've only flow small single engines and had NO IDEA how serious this
> could be. They don't teach you that in flight school. Or is it because
> single engines with only one door do not react the same as the twins.
>
> Tell me the straight skinny so I know next time I go flying.

I posted about this a couple of weeks ago when the door on the Arrow II I
was flying unlatched.

A high-wing door -should- close itself enough that it won't disrupt airflow.
A low-wing door, which is what I was flying, is a little trickier, I THINK
because the low pressure over the wing draws the door out slightly, but the
airflow keeps it closed enough that I determined that trying to close it in
solo flight was more of a distraction that landing the airplane at a nearby
strip and resecuring the door.

My windbreaker and sectional vanished, though.

-c

[gatt]

"Robert M. Gary" > wrote in message

>I learned to fly in the summer so we always took off with the doors open.
>It really helped keep us cooler. I was surprised teh first >time I found
>out that most pilots close the doors before flight, even when its
> not cold.

Really? It's part of the run-up checklist, isn't it?

See if I ever go for a submarine ride with YOU! :>

-c

[Robert M. Gary]

>>I learned to fly in the summer so we always took off with the doors open
>Really? It's part of the run-up checklist, isn't it?

I was flying C140's and Aeroncas. The "runup checklist" was CIGARS.
Strangely, we didn't all die a flaming death contrary to what people
often think today. ;)

-Robert

[Newps]

gatt wrote:


>
> A high-wing door -should- close itself enough that it won't disrupt airflow.
> A low-wing door, which is what I was flying, is a little trickier, I THINK
> because the low pressure over the wing draws the door out slightly, but the
> airflow keeps it closed enough that I determined that trying to close it in
> solo flight was more of a distraction that landing the airplane at a nearby
> strip and resecuring the door.


Having had both, a 182 and now a Bonanza, I can comment. The doors on
both open about the same amount, 2-3 inches. That's where the
similarity ends. In the low wing the noise will be tremendous and the
airflow thru the cabin will really move stuff around. It is so quiet in
the Cessna that I have flown for quite a while and not known the
passenger side door was open. The Cessna door can be shut just like you
were sitting on the ground, the airflow is irrelavant. In my Bo the
door is about welded open those few inches. I have been at 80 mph and
there's no way to close the door. Perhaps with some unusual attitudes,
I haven't tried that.

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

"Robert M. Gary" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>>>I learned to fly in the summer so we always took off with the doors open
>>Really? It's part of the run-up checklist, isn't it?
>
> I was flying C140's and Aeroncas. The "runup checklist" was CIGARS.
> Strangely, we didn't all die a flaming death contrary to what people
> often think today. ;)


Lets see, open door in a Beech Sport - noisy but otherwise no big deal. Land
and close it.

Then there was the "sandwich" incident...

My brother and I had been visiting the 'rents and were flying back in a
C-120. Mom, of course, packed us a lunch to take with us. So, I'm hungry,
and I reach behind the seat feel around, come up with a sandwich. Turns out
to be a dry bologna sandwich, bread wasn't that fresh, but whatever... Then
my brother, being the smarter of the two of us, though to actully unbuckle
and LOOK instead of just feeling around over the seat back. A moment later,
he announces "Hey! There's a box of doughnuts back here!". Without even
thinking, I open up the door and throw the sandwich out.

It took a couple tries, but I managed to get the door closed again, then it
occured to me - what was under us when I threw the sandwich out? As luck
would have it, we were over nothing but farms so the sandwich probably just
landed in a field unnoticed. But I've always wondered what someone would
have thought if they had seen two half eaten slices of bread and some
bologna falling out of the sky.

--
Geoff
The Sea Hawk at Wow Way d0t Com
remove spaces and make the obvious substitutions to reply by mail
When immigration is outlawed, only outlaws will immigrate.

[Allen]

"Ol Shy & Bashful" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Bob
>> I participated in an accident investigation years ago on a Beech Queen
> Air A65/80 that crashed after a baggage door opened in flight shortly
> after takeoff at ABQ. It turned out the baggage was spilling out of the
> compartment into the left propellor causing an engine failure. It was
> not an aircraft design problem causing the crash, but one of pilot
> error. I got involved simply because the aircraft that crashed was one
> digit away from the one I was flying at the time and we used it to
> attempt duplication of the crash scenario to see if it was aircraft
> design or pilot error.
>
I believe Ben Abruzzo the ballonist also died that way in ABQ in a Cessna
421. He was headed out on a ski trip with a plane load of passengers. The
nose baggage door popped open and skis began to head for the propeller. I
think someone said he intended to shut down the left engine but somehow
wound up shutting them both down. Almost made it back to the runway but hit
a raised road just short and burst into flames.

I found this googling:

February 11, 1985: Ben Abruzzo, a crew member on the Double Eagle II, the
first balloon to cross the Atlantic Ocean nonstop, was killed along with
several passengers when his twin-engine plane crashed shortly after taking
off from the Albuquerque, New Mexico airport. An investigation showed that
the probable cause of the crash was an external luggage compartment door
which had been left open. The best idea from aircraft data was that he had
pulled back on the gas of the closest prop to the door and then
inadvertently feathered the wrong prop, thus rendering both engines
inoperative. Before his death, Abruzzo was also a member of the first team
to fly a balloon nonstop across the Pacific Ocean.

[[email protected]]

I knew a couple who were the proud owners of a new Velocity. One day
they were taking off when suddenly the door not only opened, but
departed the aircraft. They made an immediate (and uneventful) landing,
retrieved the door, and reinstalled it following repairs. Dunno whether
a change of underpants was necessary or not.

One time I had a cowl flap depart the aircraft in flight (with a bang).
It seems the hinge pin had broken it's safety wire and worked it's way
out of the hinge. The plane flew no differently with it gone - so I
continued to my home airport, which was not far away.

Another time I had a cowling access door open part way in flight. One
of the two latches had failied, but fortunately the other one held. The
door bulged outward and did cause the aircraft to yaw to the left
somewhat (but nothing serious). I landed at the nearest airport, and on
the advice of a mechanic there, effected a temporary cure with duct
tape. That got me home with no further difficulty.

David Johnson

[bob]

"Jim Macklin" > wrote in message
news:p%jbg.22154$ZW3.504@dukeread04...
> On a single-engine, a door opening is not serious, but a
> twin with a door open and the engine on the opposite side
> might get interesting. The open door would probably raise
> Vmca because of the air flow disruption on the side where
> maximum rudder effectiveness would be required.
>
Yes, I think this best describes the situation that my very experienced
pilot friend twice described about the disruption of the airflow once the
door had popped open.

[bob]

"
> A high-wing door -should- close itself enough that it won't disrupt
> airflow. A low-wing door, which is what I was flying, is a little
> trickier, I THINK


Exactly, YES it was a LOW WING! Sorry I didn't mention that earlier. I
thought it to be presumed!

[soxinbox]

A suicide door on an airplane? WTF were they thinking?? Thanks for pointing
that out, I would have never guessed an engineer could be that daft. I am
not that familiar with this model, Is there any reason that they would want
this to work that way?

"karl gruber" > wrote in message
...
> The real problem with a twin is if the forward baggage door opens, breaks
> off due to air loads, and goes through the prop.
>
> There have been several accidents due to this and all the ones I remember
> were fatal. There was also an R-22 helicopter here in the NW that just had
> the window come off the door a couple of years ago. That window went
> through the tail rotor and caused a fatal crash. (This particular window
> was an unapproved modification)
>
> Many Cessna 206 and 207 aircraft have had their rear cargo door open in
> flight. This is a suicide door and hinges the door to the rear. In this
> case the door slams back against the fuselage and causes extensive damage,
> but the airplane is controllable.
>
> Best,
> Karl
> ATP,CFI,ETC
> "Curator" N185KG
>
>
> "bob" > wrote in message
> . ..
>> How serious is it on small twin engines with only one door? Or with 2
>> doors, for that matter?
>>
>> A friend of mine tells me that he once had a twin engine Piper crash to
>> investigate due to ditching. It was later learned upon the conclusion
>> of the investigation that a passenger in the back seat was trying to
>> switch places with someone in the front and the door inadvertently popped
>> open. At that point the investigator determined, from his own similar
>> experience, that the plane sunk like a rock due to critical disruption of
>> the airflow to that could not be corrected in flight.
>> --The door could not be closed again!---
>>
>> As for my friend with his similar experience, his friend's hand was all
>> bloody from trying to hold it closed as much as he could. Fortunately,
>> they made a safe emergency landing at an island the just happened to be
>> nearby.
>>
>> I've only flow small single engines and had NO IDEA how serious this
>> could be. They don't teach you that in flight school. Or is it because
>> single engines with only one door do not react the same as the twins.
>>
>> Tell me the straight skinny so I know next time I go flying.
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>
>

[soxinbox]

In my Arrow IV, I have taken off with the door open more than once. I
followed the procedures, vents closed, window open, 80 kts??, and slip.
While solo, I was able to close the bottom latch, but not the top. No big
deal, I think the manual even says you can fly like this with no adverse
effects. The other day I had a CFII with me, and same deal, only he could
not close the top or bottom from the passenger seat. I guess the passenger
has less leverage. We just landed and closed the door.

"gatt" > wrote in message
...
>
> "bob" > wrote in message
> . ..
>
>> I've only flow small single engines and had NO IDEA how serious this
>> could be. They don't teach you that in flight school. Or is it because
>> single engines with only one door do not react the same as the twins.
>>
>> Tell me the straight skinny so I know next time I go flying.
>
> I posted about this a couple of weeks ago when the door on the Arrow II I
> was flying unlatched.
>
> A high-wing door -should- close itself enough that it won't disrupt
> airflow. A low-wing door, which is what I was flying, is a little
> trickier, I THINK because the low pressure over the wing draws the door
> out slightly, but the airflow keeps it closed enough that I determined
> that trying to close it in solo flight was more of a distraction that
> landing the airplane at a nearby strip and resecuring the door.
>
> My windbreaker and sectional vanished, though.
>
> -c
>

[Thomas Borchert]

Soxinbox,

> In my Arrow IV, I have taken off with the door open more than once.
>

May I ask why?

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[Viperdoc]

I've had a door pop open on a Baron, and it does get loud. All of the charts
on the front seat and my jacket nearly got sucked out. The plane definitely
did not fly as well with the door open. The extra drag was very noticeable,
even though it trailed open only around two inches. I was able to get it
partially closed, and the acceleration was very apparent, but I finally gave
up and landed.

While distraction is an issue, the handling was a lot different.

[soxinbox]

Not on purpose I assure you. The door is the air conditioner most used
during run-up and taxiing. Sometimes I forget to lose it before takeoff.

"Thomas Borchert" > wrote in message
...
> Soxinbox,
>
>> In my Arrow IV, I have taken off with the door open more than once.
>>
>
> May I ask why?
>
> --
> Thomas Borchert (EDDH)
>

[Ron Natalie]

Jim Macklin wrote:
> On a single-engine, a door opening is not serious, but a
> twin with a door open and the engine on the opposite side
> might get interesting. The open door would probably raise
> Vmca because of the air flow disruption on the side where
> maximum rudder effectiveness would be required.
>
>
Depends on the aircraft and the door. I believe there
is a crash report of a nose baggage door on a twin opening
and making the plane uncontrollable.

[Ron Natalie]

Robert M. Gary wrote:
> I learned to fly in the summer so we always took off with the doors
> open. It really helped keep us cooler. I was surprised teh first time I
> found out that most pilots close the doors before flight, even when its
> not cold.
>
> -Robert
>

Doors are for barns. Real airplane have canopies. I've had the
canopy pop open, but then it's legal for me to fly with it open.
Oddly enough, just as with many aircraft doors, the aerodynamic
forces make the Navion canopy want to pretty much close all the
way in flight. You can really only fly with it open if you
latch it open before takeoff. There is a cable that gives you
the leverage to pull it open in flight, but my plane doesn't
have it.

[Jim Macklin]

That's what I said, an open door will blank the tail and the
tail is needed for directional and pitch stability and
control.


"Ron Natalie" > wrote in message
m...
| Jim Macklin wrote:
| > On a single-engine, a door opening is not serious, but a
| > twin with a door open and the engine on the opposite
side
| > might get interesting. The open door would probably
raise
| > Vmca because of the air flow disruption on the side
where
| > maximum rudder effectiveness would be required.
| >
| >
| Depends on the aircraft and the door. I believe there
| is a crash report of a nose baggage door on a twin opening
| and making the plane uncontrollable.

[John Brockmeyer]

Long ago, at Albuquerque, a Queen Air had the front cargo door open at
takeoff. A box of Instruments fell out,
knocking off the tip of a left propeller blade with the plane just in the
air. Pilot feathered the left
engine, turned left to go around, went into an inverted spin, and all died.
On Tue, 23 May 2006 21:21:27 -0600, Jim Macklin
> wrote:

> That's what I said, an open door will blank the tail and the
> tail is needed for directional and pitch stability and
> control.
>
>
> "Ron Natalie" > wrote in message
> m...
> | Jim Macklin wrote:
> | > On a single-engine, a door opening is not serious, but a
> | > twin with a door open and the engine on the opposite
> side
> | > might get interesting. The open door would probably
> raise
> | > Vmca because of the air flow disruption on the side
> where
> | > maximum rudder effectiveness would be required.
> | >
> | >
> | Depends on the aircraft and the door. I believe there
> | is a crash report of a nose baggage door on a twin opening
> | and making the plane uncontrollable.
>
>



--
Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/

[Roger]

On Fri, 19 May 2006 09:04:51 -0400, "bob" > wrote:

>How serious is it on small twin engines with only one door? Or with 2
>doors, for that matter?
>
Unless they've changed when it comes to Bonanzas and Barons the
official word from the Air Safety Foundation and American Bonanza
Society is either land and close it, or leave it alone until you get
to your destination otherwise they consider it *should* be a
non-issue.

They had lost enough pilots and passengers due to pilot distraction
trying to close a door that they have one sentence that covers it.
"Don't try to close the door in flight!" and they devoted a section of
in the Bo/Baron specific training to that so every one had a door pop
open at take off or on climb out. In the Deb it sounds like a shotgun
from close range. OTOH that is the cleanest the floor has ever been
in there, but it was briefly IMC in the cockpit.

Each plane is different. Adhere to what ever the manufacture, or
pilots group says.


>A friend of mine tells me that he once had a twin engine Piper crash to
>investigate due to ditching. It was later learned upon the conclusion of
>the investigation that a passenger in the back seat was trying to switch
>places with someone in the front and the door inadvertently popped open. At
>that point the investigator determined, from his own similar experience,
>that the plane sunk like a rock due to critical disruption of the airflow
>to that could not be corrected in flight.
>--The door could not be closed again!---

In many planes this is normal. In a Bonanza and Baron the door is
part of the structure and when it pops open there is over an inch of
mismatch.

>
>As for my friend with his similar experience, his friend's hand was all
>bloody from trying to hold it closed as much as he could. Fortunately, they

This is a prime example of not knowing what should be done along with
wasted time and pain. Unless they are gull type doors they are going
no where with no need to try to hold it closed.

>made a safe emergency landing at an island the just happened to be nearby.
>
>I've only flow small single engines and had NO IDEA how serious this could
>be. They don't teach you that in flight school. Or is it because single

It's normally a non issue with trainers, but I can't speak for all
trainers.

>engines with only one door do not react the same as the twins.

Some do and some don't.

>
>Tell me the straight skinny so I know next time I go flying.
>
The only way to know for sure is to read the POH and consult the
manufacturer, (and/or) pilot/owner groups.

The number one problem with doors popping open in flight is pilot
distraction. Just ask the Air Safety Foundation.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com
>Thanks
>

[Roger]

On Sun, 21 May 2006 03:18:35 GMT, "soxinbox" > wrote:

>In my Arrow IV, I have taken off with the door open more than once. I
>followed the procedures, vents closed, window open, 80 kts??, and slip.
>While solo, I was able to close the bottom latch, but not the top. No big

Just remember that door is a structural member in the Arrow, unlike
the Cessna.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

>deal, I think the manual even says you can fly like this with no adverse
>effects. The other day I had a CFII with me, and same deal, only he could
>not close the top or bottom from the passenger seat. I guess the passenger
>has less leverage. We just landed and closed the door.
>
>"gatt" > wrote in message
...
>>
>> "bob" > wrote in message
>> . ..
>>
>>> I've only flow small single engines and had NO IDEA how serious this
>>> could be. They don't teach you that in flight school. Or is it because
>>> single engines with only one door do not react the same as the twins.
>>>
>>> Tell me the straight skinny so I know next time I go flying.
>>
>> I posted about this a couple of weeks ago when the door on the Arrow II I
>> was flying unlatched.
>>
>> A high-wing door -should- close itself enough that it won't disrupt
>> airflow. A low-wing door, which is what I was flying, is a little
>> trickier, I THINK because the low pressure over the wing draws the door
>> out slightly, but the airflow keeps it closed enough that I determined
>> that trying to close it in solo flight was more of a distraction that
>> landing the airplane at a nearby strip and resecuring the door.
>>
>> My windbreaker and sectional vanished, though.
>>
>> -c
>>
>

[Jim Macklin]

Beech Bonanza and Baron cabin doors are a very minor
problem. On the Baron the nose baggage door is another
matter. A service bulletin (and recent production
airplanes have a third safety catch which prevent the nose
door from opening more than about 1-2 inches, there is also
a net to secure baggage.


--
James H. Macklin
ATP,CFI,A&P

--
The people think the Constitution protects their rights;
But government sees it as an obstacle to be overcome.
some support
http://www.usdoj.gov/olc/secondamendment2.htm
See http://www.fija.org/ more about your rights and duties.


"Roger" > wrote in message
...
| On Fri, 19 May 2006 09:04:51 -0400, "bob" > wrote:
|
| >How serious is it on small twin engines with only one
door? Or with 2
| >doors, for that matter?
| >
| Unless they've changed when it comes to Bonanzas and
Barons the
| official word from the Air Safety Foundation and American
Bonanza
| Society is either land and close it, or leave it alone
until you get
| to your destination otherwise they consider it *should* be
a
| non-issue.
|
| They had lost enough pilots and passengers due to pilot
distraction
| trying to close a door that they have one sentence that
covers it.
| "Don't try to close the door in flight!" and they devoted
a section of
| in the Bo/Baron specific training to that so every one had
a door pop
| open at take off or on climb out. In the Deb it sounds
like a shotgun
| from close range. OTOH that is the cleanest the floor
has ever been
| in there, but it was briefly IMC in the cockpit.
|
| Each plane is different. Adhere to what ever the
manufacture, or
| pilots group says.
|
|
| >A friend of mine tells me that he once had a twin engine
Piper crash to
| >investigate due to ditching. It was later learned upon
the conclusion of
| >the investigation that a passenger in the back seat was
trying to switch
| >places with someone in the front and the door
inadvertently popped open. At
| >that point the investigator determined, from his own
similar experience,
| >that the plane sunk like a rock due to critical
disruption of the airflow
| >to that could not be corrected in flight.
| >--The door could not be closed again!---
|
| In many planes this is normal. In a Bonanza and Baron the
door is
| part of the structure and when it pops open there is over
an inch of
| mismatch.
|
| >
| >As for my friend with his similar experience, his
friend's hand was all
| >bloody from trying to hold it closed as much as he could.
Fortunately, they
|
| This is a prime example of not knowing what should be done
along with
| wasted time and pain. Unless they are gull type doors
they are going
| no where with no need to try to hold it closed.
|
| >made a safe emergency landing at an island the just
happened to be nearby.
| >
| >I've only flow small single engines and had NO IDEA how
serious this could
| >be. They don't teach you that in flight school. Or is
it because single
|
| It's normally a non issue with trainers, but I can't speak
for all
| trainers.
|
| >engines with only one door do not react the same as the
twins.
|
| Some do and some don't.
|
| >
| >Tell me the straight skinny so I know next time I go
flying.
| >
| The only way to know for sure is to read the POH and
consult the
| manufacturer, (and/or) pilot/owner groups.
|
| The number one problem with doors popping open in flight
is pilot
| distraction. Just ask the Air Safety Foundation.
|
| Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
| (N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
| www.rogerhalstead.com
| >Thanks
| >

[Jay Masino]

Roger > wrote:
> Just remember that door is a structural member in the Arrow, unlike
> the Cessna.
>

The door opening *frame* may be a structural member, but not the door itself.
I doubt there's any significant cockpit strength difference when the door is
latched vs. unlatched.

--- Jay



--

Jay Masino "Home is where the critters are"
http://www.JayMasino.com
http://www.OceanCityAirport.com
http://www.oc-Adolfos.com

[Roger]

On Wed, 31 May 2006 07:21:50 -0500, (Jay Masino)
wrote:

>Roger > wrote:
>> Just remember that door is a structural member in the Arrow, unlike
>> the Cessna.
>>
>
>The door opening *frame* may be a structural member, but not the door itself.
>I doubt there's any significant cockpit strength difference when the door is
>latched vs. unlatched.

Consider this.
Open the door in level flight. Now close the door in level flight. It
won't close. Why? If you look, the door shape no longer matches that
of the opening. As I recall on the Cherokee 180 the mismatch was on
the order of half an inch. That means the fuselage flexed about a half
an inch. The door was providing additional, structural strength
albeit it's not critical.

On a Bonanza the mismatch is even more. It's enough that you are not
going to close that door in level flight or without unloading the
airframe which can be done but I doubt it'd be considered a "normal"
maneuver.

On both planes the door is considered part of the structure. It's
just not a critical part of the structure.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

>
>--- Jay

[Thomas Borchert]

Roger,

> If you look, the door shape no longer matches that
> of the opening.
>

Please, look again.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[B A R R Y]

Roger wrote:
>
> Open the door in level flight. Now close the door in level flight. It
> won't close. Why? If you look, the door shape no longer matches that
> of the opening. As I recall on the Cherokee 180 the mismatch was on
> the order of half an inch.

The (4) PA-28 airframes I've flown (mostly 160HP Warriors) will close
quite easily if you follow the POH in-flight door closing procedure.
With the storm window open, cabin vents closed, and the right airspeed,
the door is almost sucked closed.

Was there something wrong with the Cherokee you were flying? <G>

[Jay Masino]

Roger > wrote:
> Consider this.
> Open the door in level flight. Now close the door in level flight. It
> won't close. Why? If you look, the door shape no longer matches that
> of the opening. As I recall on the Cherokee 180 the mismatch was on
> the order of half an inch. That means the fuselage flexed about a half
> an inch. The door was providing additional, structural strength
> albeit it's not critical.
>

I think you're making a wrong assumption. Look at the door, the hinges, and
the latches. There's nothing strong enough to be considered "structural".
The door frame flexes a bit. When you have the door latched securely, first,
the gap remains small. If the door frame flexes a bit, while the door is
open, there's little hope of getting the door to shut as securely.

--- Jay


--

Jay Masino "Home is where the critters are"
http://www.JayMasino.com
http://www.OceanCityAirport.com
http://www.oc-Adolfos.com