Advice, please: too old to fly?

[R.W. Behan]

There can be no better source of advice than this group for my question: am
I too old to take up flying--and building an airplane?

Full disclosure. As a young man in the Korean War I was an aviation
machinist's mate in the Navy. As a forestry student in the late '50's I was
a smokejumper, so I have quite a bit of experience in the ultimate maneuver:
abandoning an airplane in flight. As a forester in Southeast Alaska, I had
many hours of time flying with a bush pilot, as a passenger. Lots of
airplanes in my background, but I'm now 73.

I find the Zenith STOL's irresistible. The 701, the 2-seater, can be flown
with a 10-hour sport license, so at my age--and limited time out there
ahead--it might make sense to focus on that airplane. But I'd really prefer
the 801, the 4-place plane. It would take longer to get the necessary
private pilot's license--40 hours of flying time instead of 10--but I see
that as a huge advantage: nothing beats experience. And flight training and
airplane building could proceed simultaneously, couldn't they?

I've enjoyed a great deal following the discussions on this board, and I've
learned a lot here. Maybe it has been the stimulus for my cockamamie dream.

Your knowledgeable comments will be most appreciated, and thanks a million.

Dick Behan

[Orval Fairbairn]

In article >,
"R.W. Behan" > wrote:

> There can be no better source of advice than this group for my question: am
> I too old to take up flying--and building an airplane?
>
> Full disclosure. As a young man in the Korean War I was an aviation
> machinist's mate in the Navy. As a forestry student in the late '50's I was
> a smokejumper, so I have quite a bit of experience in the ultimate maneuver:
> abandoning an airplane in flight. As a forester in Southeast Alaska, I had
> many hours of time flying with a bush pilot, as a passenger. Lots of
> airplanes in my background, but I'm now 73.
>
> I find the Zenith STOL's irresistible. The 701, the 2-seater, can be flown
> with a 10-hour sport license, so at my age--and limited time out there
> ahead--it might make sense to focus on that airplane. But I'd really prefer
> the 801, the 4-place plane. It would take longer to get the necessary
> private pilot's license--40 hours of flying time instead of 10--but I see
> that as a huge advantage: nothing beats experience. And flight training and
> airplane building could proceed simultaneously, couldn't they?
>
> I've enjoyed a great deal following the discussions on this board, and I've
> learned a lot here. Maybe it has been the stimulus for my cockamamie dream.
>
> Your knowledgeable comments will be most appreciated, and thanks a million.
>
> Dick Behan

I have a friend who took up flying at 75, another in his late 60s, yet
another, who was Chief Pilot for Eastern, is still active at 90.

I say, "Go for it!"

[Michael]

I have a friend who served in the Korean war as an aircraft mechanic
(working on Corsairs). He took up flying just a few years ago. He
also got his A&P. He still flies actively, and even does aerobatics.
He is also active as an A&P. Your military experience may qualify you
to take the A&P exam (the exam itself is a joke) and make it possible
for you to economically own a certified aircraft.

Michael

[Jim Logajan]

"R.W. Behan" > wrote:
> There can be no better source of advice than this group for my
> question: am I too old to take up flying--and building an airplane?

It seems one can never be too old to learn to fly:
"Student Pilot Solos At 91"
http://avweb.com/newswire/12_21a/briefs/192289-1.html

> I find the Zenith STOL's irresistible. The 701, the 2-seater, can be
> flown with a 10-hour sport license, so at my age--and limited time out
> there ahead--it might make sense to focus on that airplane.

If you're looking at the 701, you might also want to take a look at the
Savannah:
http://www.skykits.com/

> But I'd
> really prefer the 801, the 4-place plane. It would take longer to get
> the necessary private pilot's license--40 hours of flying time instead
> of 10--

I believe the minimum training for the airplane sport pilot certificate is
20 hours, not 10:
http://www.sportpilot.org/newpilot/newpilot_training.html

[Paul Tomblin]

In a previous article, "R.W. Behan" > said:
>There can be no better source of advice than this group for my question: am
>I too old to take up flying--and building an airplane?

A guy in my flying club got his first flying lesson as a present for his
75th birthday. He lost his medical about 6 years later, but it was a
better 6 years than he would have had if he'd just sat on his butt. I
offered to take him flying, but he says it would make him too sad.


--
Paul Tomblin > http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/
To ensure privacy and data integrity this message has been encrypted
using dual rounds of ROT-13 encryption.

[Adam Aulick]

Jim Logajan wrote:
> If you're looking at the 701, you might also want to take a look at the
> Savannah:
> http://www.skykits.com/

Apparently the Savannah is a direct copy of the 701:
<http://www.zenithair.com/stolch701/7-photo-copies.html#Ultraflight>

Is it legal in the US, to sell kits built from somebody else's
(copyrighted) plans, without permission? On reflection, I can't think
of a reason why it wouldn't be, but I can see where the original
designer would be irritated.

~Adam

[SkyDaddy]

Go for it! Though you might consider buying a completed or
nearly-completed airplane to save time.

R.W. Behan wrote:
> There can be no better source of advice than this group for my question: am
> I too old to take up flying--and building an airplane?

[Ed Sullivan]

On Wed, 24 May 2006 09:02:20 -0700, "R.W. Behan"
> wrote:


>
>Dick Behan

If I were you I'd go for it. I am still flying at 77 in an aerobatic
single seater. If you have any doubts about passing a 3rd class
medical you should probably opt for the Sport Pilot which allows you
to use a valid drivers license as a medical.

[Al]

Hell R.W., we just offered free yearly dues to members of our EAA chapter
that were over 80. It's a good thing that only 6 of 'em took us up on it.
One of our CFI's is 83 and rents two 150's.

Al


"R.W. Behan" > wrote in message
...
> There can be no better source of advice than this group for my question:
> am I too old to take up flying--and building an airplane?
>
> Full disclosure. As a young man in the Korean War I was an aviation
> machinist's mate in the Navy. As a forestry student in the late '50's I
> was a smokejumper, so I have quite a bit of experience in the ultimate
> maneuver: abandoning an airplane in flight. As a forester in Southeast
> Alaska, I had many hours of time flying with a bush pilot, as a passenger.
> Lots of airplanes in my background, but I'm now 73.
>
> I find the Zenith STOL's irresistible. The 701, the 2-seater, can be
> flown with a 10-hour sport license, so at my age--and limited time out
> there ahead--it might make sense to focus on that airplane. But I'd
> really prefer the 801, the 4-place plane. It would take longer to get the
> necessary private pilot's license--40 hours of flying time instead of
> 10--but I see that as a huge advantage: nothing beats experience. And
> flight training and airplane building could proceed simultaneously,
> couldn't they?
>
> I've enjoyed a great deal following the discussions on this board, and
> I've learned a lot here. Maybe it has been the stimulus for my cockamamie
> dream.
>
> Your knowledgeable comments will be most appreciated, and thanks a
> million.
>
> Dick Behan
>
>
>

[cavelamb]

Orval Fairbairn wrote:
> In article >,
> "R.W. Behan" > wrote:
>
>
>>There can be no better source of advice than this group for my question: am
>>I too old to take up flying--and building an airplane?
>>
>>Full disclosure. As a young man in the Korean War I was an aviation
>>machinist's mate in the Navy. As a forestry student in the late '50's I was
>>a smokejumper, so I have quite a bit of experience in the ultimate maneuver:
>>abandoning an airplane in flight. As a forester in Southeast Alaska, I had
>>many hours of time flying with a bush pilot, as a passenger. Lots of
>>airplanes in my background, but I'm now 73.
>>
>>I find the Zenith STOL's irresistible. The 701, the 2-seater, can be flown
>>with a 10-hour sport license, so at my age--and limited time out there
>>ahead--it might make sense to focus on that airplane. But I'd really prefer
>>the 801, the 4-place plane. It would take longer to get the necessary
>>private pilot's license--40 hours of flying time instead of 10--but I see
>>that as a huge advantage: nothing beats experience. And flight training and
>>airplane building could proceed simultaneously, couldn't they?
>>
>>I've enjoyed a great deal following the discussions on this board, and I've
>>learned a lot here. Maybe it has been the stimulus for my cockamamie dream.
>>
>>Your knowledgeable comments will be most appreciated, and thanks a million.
>>
>>Dick Behan
>
>
> I have a friend who took up flying at 75, another in his late 60s, yet
> another, who was Chief Pilot for Eastern, is still active at 90.
>
> I say, "Go for it!"

I have an uncle (Morice Jordan) who started with American Airline in a
Ford Trimotor. Was flying the DC-10A when he retired.

A few years ago (past 90!) he renewed his medical and taught his
grandkids how to fly.

So, suck it up, and get after it, Dick!

Time and tide, you know...

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

"Jim Logajan" > wrote in message
...
> "R.W. Behan" > wrote:
>> There can be no better source of advice than this group for my
>> question: am I too old to take up flying--and building an airplane?
>

<...>
> I believe the minimum training for the airplane sport pilot certificate is
> 20 hours, not 10:
> http://www.sportpilot.org/newpilot/newpilot_training.html

I would expect to take more than the minimum 20/40 hours. But, since the
objective is to go flying, why would it be a problem to fly a little more,
right?

What are you waiting for?
--
Geoff
The Sea Hawk at Wow Way d0t Com
remove spaces and make the obvious substitutions to reply by mail
When immigration is outlawed, only outlaws will immigrate.

[Vaughn Simon]

"R.W. Behan" > wrote in message
...
>It would take longer to get the necessary private pilot's license--40 hours of
>flying time instead of 10--but I see that as a huge advantage: nothing beats
>experience. And flight training and airplane building could proceed
>simultaneously, couldn't they?

You, (unless you are very talented and unusual person) will likely not be
ready for any license in 10 hours or even in 40 hours. I learned to fly at a
rather late age (but not that late) and as a glider CFI I taught several older
students, and I can tell you that it just takes longer. You can learn to fly
safely, there is no particular reason why you should not take flight lessons,
but you must have patience. The simple fact is that the average 70 year-old
flight student will learn much slower than the average 20 year-old flight
student. This is true no matter how intelligent you happen to be, because it is
a physical skill you are learning and brainpower is not everything in that
situation. Check your pride at the cockpit door, do not put any time limits on
yourself and do not push your CFI to solo you until he is eager to do so.
Learning to fly is flying, and it is fun! Paying the CFI is the cheapest part
of flying, so why rush it?

Heck, I still take a CFI up on a fairly regular basis just for the hell of
it.

Vaughn (CFIG)

[Peter Dohm]

"R.W. Behan" > wrote in message
...
> There can be no better source of advice than this group for my question:
am
> I too old to take up flying--and building an airplane?
>
> Full disclosure. As a young man in the Korean War I was an aviation
> machinist's mate in the Navy. As a forestry student in the late '50's I
was
> a smokejumper, so I have quite a bit of experience in the ultimate
maneuver:
> abandoning an airplane in flight. As a forester in Southeast Alaska, I
had
> many hours of time flying with a bush pilot, as a passenger. Lots of
> airplanes in my background, but I'm now 73.
>
> I find the Zenith STOL's irresistible. The 701, the 2-seater, can be
flown
> with a 10-hour sport license, so at my age--and limited time out there
> ahead--it might make sense to focus on that airplane. But I'd really
prefer
> the 801, the 4-place plane. It would take longer to get the necessary
> private pilot's license--40 hours of flying time instead of 10--but I see
> that as a huge advantage: nothing beats experience. And flight training
and
> airplane building could proceed simultaneously, couldn't they?
>
> I've enjoyed a great deal following the discussions on this board, and
I've
> learned a lot here. Maybe it has been the stimulus for my cockamamie
dream.
>
> Your knowledgeable comments will be most appreciated, and thanks a
million.
>
> Dick Behan
>
>
>
Any prior experience that you might have is a plus. Go ahead, and have fun!

Peter

[Morgans]

"Adam Aulick" > wrote

> Apparently the Savannah is a direct copy of the 701:
> <http://www.zenithair.com/stolch701/7-photo-copies.html#Ultraflight>

Yep, and the 701 folks raise a lot of questions about the safety of said
copy. Go to Zenith.com and Poke around, before you make up your mind.

Try http://www.zenithair.com/stolch701/7-photo-copies.html
--
Jim in NC

[Jim Logajan]

"Morgans" > wrote:
> "Adam Aulick" > wrote
>
>> Apparently the Savannah is a direct copy of the 701:
>> <http://www.zenithair.com/stolch701/7-photo-copies.html#Ultraflight>
>
> Yep, and the 701 folks raise a lot of questions about the safety of said
> copy. Go to Zenith.com and Poke around, before you make up your mind.
>
> Try http://www.zenithair.com/stolch701/7-photo-copies.html

Zenith seems to want to have it both ways: claims it's an exact copy, yet
raises questions about its safety. If it were "just" a copy, Zenith would
be in the position of questioning the safety of its own design.

[R.W. Behan]

Folks, thanks very much for your time, concern, patience, and encouragement.

Hearing no objection, so ordered: away we go into the blue yonder, perhaps
not so wildly as those with more hair and fewer wrinkles. Patience and
diligence will be applied liberally. (The reference to 10 and 40 hours
reflects my understanding of the minima, not my anxious expectations.
Whatever it takes, right?)

And Zenith makes a good case for their original design.

Thanks one and all. Blue skies and tailwinds to you.

Dick Behan

[abripl]

With your enthusiasm and past experience you should be able to pass
your private training.

The main issue is your health. Is it OK to pass the FAA medical. For
FAA medical standards see http://www.leftseat.com/FAAforms.htm

Also expect to pay about $6K for your training. The average training
flight time is more like 60 hours and not 40.

[Richard Riley]

Dick, I'm glad to hear it.

But I agree with Sky Daddy, above - strongly consider buying a
completed 701. Even the simplest plane takes a couple of years to
build, and you can almost always buy used for less than the cost of
building yourself. When you're done with it you'll be able to sell it
for near what you've paid.

[R.W. Behan]

Thanks for the headsup on medical standards. I checked your link and see no
problems there except perhaps hearing. I do have hearing aids in both ears:
is that a showstopper? (The leftseat.com site wasn't clear on that.)
Thanks.

Dick B.


"abripl" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> With your enthusiasm and past experience you should be able to pass
> your private training.
>
> The main issue is your health. Is it OK to pass the FAA medical. For
> FAA medical standards see http://www.leftseat.com/FAAforms.htm
>
> Also expect to pay about $6K for your training. The average training
> flight time is more like 60 hours and not 40.
>

[R.W. Behan]

Richard:

I once had the plans to build a 30' bluewater sailboat. Then a
knowledgeable friend said buying a boat was much faster than building one.
I took his advice (bought a Westsail 32) and never looked back. Maybe I'm
in need of sensible advice again, and you and Sky Daddy are providing it.

I do note, though, that Zenith airplanes seem rarely if ever to be on the
market.

Anyway, thanks. Probably much smarter at my age--and God knows quicker--to
buy than to build.

Cheers,

Dick B.


"Richard Riley" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> Dick, I'm glad to hear it.
>
> But I agree with Sky Daddy, above - strongly consider buying a
> completed 701. Even the simplest plane takes a couple of years to
> build, and you can almost always buy used for less than the cost of
> building yourself. When you're done with it you'll be able to sell it
> for near what you've paid.
>

[Stan Premo]

As I recall, if you've lost your medical, sport pilot is closed to you until
you get your medical reinstated. Being 72 myself, and unless a four-place is
vital to your enjoyment, I'd keep my focus on buying a sport pilot qualified
plane and go sport pilot all the way without risking being disqualified for
both. Good luck either way!
"R.W. Behan" > wrote in message
...
> Thanks for the headsup on medical standards. I checked your link and see
> no problems there except perhaps hearing. I do have hearing aids in both
> ears: is that a showstopper? (The leftseat.com site wasn't clear on
> that.) Thanks.
>
> Dick B.
>
>
> "abripl" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
>> With your enthusiasm and past experience you should be able to pass
>> your private training.
>>
>> The main issue is your health. Is it OK to pass the FAA medical. For
>> FAA medical standards see http://www.leftseat.com/FAAforms.htm
>>
>> Also expect to pay about $6K for your training. The average training
>> flight time is more like 60 hours and not 40.
>>
>
>

[Steve Foley]

"R.W. Behan" > wrote in message
...
> Thanks for the headsup on medical standards. I checked your link and see
no
> problems there except perhaps hearing. I do have hearing aids in both
ears:
> is that a showstopper? (The leftseat.com site wasn't clear on that.)
> Thanks.
>
> Dick B.
>

Do a search for the deaf pilots association. You'll find the answer is that
it's not a showstopper.



>
> "abripl" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
> > With your enthusiasm and past experience you should be able to pass
> > your private training.
> >
> > The main issue is your health. Is it OK to pass the FAA medical. For
> > FAA medical standards see http://www.leftseat.com/FAAforms.htm
> >
> > Also expect to pay about $6K for your training. The average training
> > flight time is more like 60 hours and not 40.
> >
>
>

[Gig 601XL Builder]

I'm no in anyway telling you not to build. BUT they are available to
purchase.

http://www.barnstormers.com/Experimental,%20Zenith%20Classifieds.htm

"R.W. Behan" > wrote in message
...
> Richard:
>
> I once had the plans to build a 30' bluewater sailboat. Then a
> knowledgeable friend said buying a boat was much faster than building one.
> I took his advice (bought a Westsail 32) and never looked back. Maybe I'm
> in need of sensible advice again, and you and Sky Daddy are providing it.
>
> I do note, though, that Zenith airplanes seem rarely if ever to be on the
> market.
>
> Anyway, thanks. Probably much smarter at my age--and God knows
> quicker--to buy than to build.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Dick B.
>
>
> "Richard Riley" > wrote in message
> ups.com...
>> Dick, I'm glad to hear it.
>>
>> But I agree with Sky Daddy, above - strongly consider buying a
>> completed 701. Even the simplest plane takes a couple of years to
>> build, and you can almost always buy used for less than the cost of
>> building yourself. When you're done with it you'll be able to sell it
>> for near what you've paid.
>>
>
>

[Dave Fase]

Dick

The following item was in this weeks Monday AVWEB...

"Cliff Garl satisfied a lifelong dream and may have set a record of sorts
last week. The 91-year-old Shoreline, Wash., student pilot soloed for the
first time over Arlington Airport. "You go into a nursing home and you'll
see people a lot younger than he just sitting there," Garl's 75-year-old
instructor Joe Bennett told The Seattle Times. "I actually don't know of
anybody, even in their 80s, who's soloed." According to the Times, the FAA
didn't have records of any student pilots over the age of 90 in 2004 and
showed only 59 in their 80s. Garl told the Times he was nervous before the
flight but once in the cockpit of the Cessna 172, the training took over. As
might be expected, the medical was Garl's biggest obstacle -- even though
he's in good health."

The full acticle went on to say that Garl hopes to attain his PP
certificate.

Go for it! Aloha, Dave Fase

"R.W. Behan" > wrote in message
...
> There can be no better source of advice than this group for my question:
> am I too old to take up flying--and building an airplane?
>

[Richard Riley]

I have to agree with Stan.

The only reason to try to get a medical would be if there's something
like a 172 or Cherokee around that you want to get some of your
training in.

The key to the Sport Pilot category is to never *LOSE* your medical,
and never be turned down for one. If you think you have to try for a
medical, find an AME and ask him for a NON-FAA physical exam, to find
out if you will pass a real FAA physical. If he says you wouldn't,
don't take the real exam and fly on your driver's license.

Do the same thing when it comes time to renew. Get a pre-exam, if you
are going to fail, just let the old medical run out.

[[email protected]]

You should read and internalize the Richard Riley post
very carefully.

If you try and fail on a class III medical, you are totally
screwed virtually forever. Failure on class III eliminates
you from the sport category unless you can somehow
qualify for the class III later.

If you never fail and you have no medical problems,
you can fly sport without any further checking.

I'm with those that say you should find a completed
701 and get started!! Bill Hale

[Morgans]

"Jim Logajan" > wrote in message
.. .
> "Morgans" > wrote:
>> "Adam Aulick" > wrote
>>
>>> Apparently the Savannah is a direct copy of the 701:
>>> <http://www.zenithair.com/stolch701/7-photo-copies.html#Ultraflight>
>>
>> Yep, and the 701 folks raise a lot of questions about the safety of said
>> copy. Go to Zenith.com and Poke around, before you make up your mind.
>>
>> Try http://www.zenithair.com/stolch701/7-photo-copies.html
>
> Zenith seems to want to have it both ways: claims it's an exact copy, yet
> raises questions about its safety. If it were "just" a copy, Zenith would
> be in the position of questioning the safety of its own design.

Granted, there is a lot of reading there, but not so, according to them.

There was one incident that I remember off the top of my head, but Z
increased it's gross, by re-engineering the spar, or something, a bit
beefier, and within a few days, S said their gross weight was up to match
it, with no noticeable change in the affected parts. There were more
examples, I think.

Do you really think Z would be stupid enough to say S was unsafe, if there
were no differences to point at?
--
Jim in NC

[R.W. Behan]

Gig, thanks for that headsup. I'll bookmark the link. I'd tried to find
Zeniths on the used plane links, but they're heavy to Cessnas and Pipers.
I'll sure keep an eye on the used Zeniths. Thanks again.

Dick B.


"Gig 601XL Builder" <wrDOTgiaconaATcox.net> wrote in message
...
> I'm no in anyway telling you not to build. BUT they are available to
> purchase.
>
> http://www.barnstormers.com/Experimental,%20Zenith%20Classifieds.htm
>
> "R.W. Behan" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Richard:
>>
>> I once had the plans to build a 30' bluewater sailboat. Then a
>> knowledgeable friend said buying a boat was much faster than building
>> one. I took his advice (bought a Westsail 32) and never looked back.
>> Maybe I'm in need of sensible advice again, and you and Sky Daddy are
>> providing it.
>>
>> I do note, though, that Zenith airplanes seem rarely if ever to be on the
>> market.
>>
>> Anyway, thanks. Probably much smarter at my age--and God knows
>> quicker--to buy than to build.
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Dick B.
>>
>>
>> "Richard Riley" > wrote in message
>> ups.com...
>>> Dick, I'm glad to hear it.
>>>
>>> But I agree with Sky Daddy, above - strongly consider buying a
>>> completed 701. Even the simplest plane takes a couple of years to
>>> build, and you can almost always buy used for less than the cost of
>>> building yourself. When you're done with it you'll be able to sell it
>>> for near what you've paid.
>>>
>>
>>
>
>

[greenwavepilot]

Well, I just hit 30 and realized that I am too old to finish my PPL,
and will never try again. Since the arrival of my kid I had to face the
hard cold fact that I could buy lessons and avgas or diapers and baby
food and daycare. So all my PPL stuff is currently on Ebay.

So...
I don't look up anymore when I hear that piston single.
I don't want to ever get near an aircraft again.
It makes me sick even thinking about it.

Now I just gotta wean myself from accessing these forums.

[Jean-Paul Roy]

Sad to hear.

From a percentage point of view;

5% of people are in the parade
15% of people are watching the parade
80% of people don't even know THERE IS A PARADE.

Jean-Paul
"greenwavepilot" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> Well, I just hit 30 and realized that I am too old to finish my PPL,
> and will never try again. Since the arrival of my kid I had to face the
> hard cold fact that I could buy lessons and avgas or diapers and baby
> food and daycare. So all my PPL stuff is currently on Ebay.
>
> So...
> I don't look up anymore when I hear that piston single.
> I don't want to ever get near an aircraft again.
> It makes me sick even thinking about it.
>
> Now I just gotta wean myself from accessing these forums.
>

[JJS]

"greenwavepilot" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> Well, I just hit 30 and realized that I am too old to finish my PPL,
> and will never try again. Since the arrival of my kid I had to face the
> hard cold fact that I could buy lessons and avgas or diapers and baby
> food and daycare. So all my PPL stuff is currently on Ebay.
>
> So...
> I don't look up anymore when I hear that piston single.
> I don't want to ever get near an aircraft again.
> It makes me sick even thinking about it.
>
snip

Been there! Got the PPL then got married! We had two infant daughters. It was not possible to stay current and
feel safe flying only an hour or so a month. Regretfully, I let my magazine subscriptions lapse and tried to turn
away. Once smitten though, the ember wouldn't die. Once in a great while someone would offer me a ride. Then
finances ever so slowly got a bit better as my career progressed. I could afford things like a boat, then a few
years later, a travel trailer. Then a friend talked me into RC models. The same friend then talked me into a flying
club. (It didn't take much talking). Then an inexpensive Cherokee came up for sale and I started wondering... ditch
the toys, and just maybe? The rest is history. After 8 years of ownership, I wouldn't change a thing. Don't
totally give up just because you have to take a sabbatical. There was a time as young man that I was on a mission to
own an airplane. There was a time in my life that I just knew it would never happen and I'd wasted a fortune on
lessons. 15 years later and I'm in a club putting those lessons to use and a year later I own my airplane. Since
then it has taken the wife and I from the middle of the USA to the Grand Canyon, Oshkosh, Canada, and countless trips
to see friends and relatives and to tens if not hundreds of high school soccer and football games around the state.

Back to the thread: Similarly to others who've have mentioned relatives or people they know... I had an Uncle who
was a civilian military flight instructor during WWII. Then he was a corporate pilot, flying Beech 18's for J.I.
Case (tractor) company. Several years ago there was a reunion and he flew his own airplane to the airfield were he
once taught fighter pilots. His ex-students could not believe he was still flying. IIRC, he was 88 years young at
the time. He kept on instructing into his mid 90's, once receiving the Oklahoma flight instructor of the year award.
He finally quit flying, and sold his airplane when he was 96. At one point he had been honored as the oldest flying
pilot in the U.S. by the FAA and AOPA. He moved into an assisted living center while still in relatively good
health. One day Dad and I stopped by to visit. He was a bit depressed as many elderly in his situation seem to be.
An elderly lady walked into his apartment with her son. They were considering moving her into the same facility.
She noticed a framed picture setting on an end table. It was of him as a young man standing beside the Beech he used
to fly. The lady asked, "What is that"? Assuming she was point to the elegantly hand crafted doily the picture was
setting on, he said with a touch of sadness, "Oh my wife crocheted that years ago before she passed away". The lady
said, "No, that's beautiful, but I mean the picture". Uncle raised his eyebrows, and cautiously began telling of his
flying career. The elegant old woman said she'd been a ferry pilot in world war II. Both their eyes lit up, the
scrap books came out, and they were transported back in time...as was I. It was the most amazing thing I'd ever
witnessed as they told flying story after story. He passed away at 99 years young. He never lost a student in an
airplane crash during 70 years of flying. My only regret is that he lived 130 miles from me and I never got to fly
with him.

Joe Schneider
N8437R



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[Vaughn Simon]

"greenwavepilot" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> Well, I just hit 30 and realized that I am too old to finish my PPL,
> and will never try again. Since the arrival of my kid ...

Hell, it isn't even CLOSE to being too late! I had the same issues as you
and waited until my "baby" had her first full-time job before taking my first
lesson. What made it all even harder was my daughter; she started taking
lessons at 12 and obtained her ASEL and PPG while I stood on the ground and paid
the bills. The things we do for our kids!

Vaughn

[Rich S.]

"JJS" <jschneider@remove socks cebridge.net> wrote in message
...

.. . . It was the most amazing thing I'd ever
> witnessed as they told flying story after story. He passed away at 99
> years young. He never lost a student in an airplane crash during 70 years
> of flying. My only regret is that he lived 130 miles from me and I never
> got to fly with him.
>
> Joe Schneider
> N8437R

Great story, Joe. Inspiring!

Rich S.

[Roger]

On Wed, 24 May 2006 09:02:20 -0700, "R.W. Behan"
> wrote:

>There can be no better source of advice than this group for my question: am
>I too old to take up flying--and building an airplane?

As far as learning to fly age should play no role unless you are too
young to solo. <:-))

The only requirement is that you are in good health both physically
and mentally and can pass the physical, or at least in good enough
health to be safe if going for the sport class license.

However that clarification at the end... Building an airplane does
cast doubts on the state of your mental health.

>
>Full disclosure. As a young man in the Korean War I was an aviation
>machinist's mate in the Navy. As a forestry student in the late '50's I was
>a smokejumper, so I have quite a bit of experience in the ultimate maneuver:
>abandoning an airplane in flight. As a forester in Southeast Alaska, I had
>many hours of time flying with a bush pilot, as a passenger. Lots of
>airplanes in my background, but I'm now 73.
>
>I find the Zenith STOL's irresistible. The 701, the 2-seater, can be flown
>with a 10-hour sport license, so at my age--and limited time out there
>ahead--it might make sense to focus on that airplane. But I'd really prefer
>the 801, the 4-place plane. It would take longer to get the necessary
>private pilot's license--40 hours of flying time instead of 10--but I see
>that as a huge advantage: nothing beats experience. And flight training and
>airplane building could proceed simultaneously, couldn't they?

You'd probably have the license long before the plane is ready to fly.
>
>I've enjoyed a great deal following the discussions on this board, and I've
>learned a lot here. Maybe it has been the stimulus for my cockamamie dream.

If you can still dream you aren't too old to fly.
All too often people leave their dreams when they leave their youth
behind. I find that most pilots seem to have brought their dreams with
them into adulthood. OTOH I think quite a few brought their child
hoods with them.<:-))

There are some on this group, at least at times and I think they still
lurk, that flew air show aerobatics well past your age.

As far as building you might also look into quick build kits and
builder assist programs to get the plane in the air a lot sooner, but
those both add quite a bit to the cost of the airplane.

There are about 5 or 6 planes I'd love to build, but the odds are I'll
never get the G-III finished at the rate I've been going.

Good Luck,

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

>
>Your knowledgeable comments will be most appreciated, and thanks a million.
>
>Dick Behan
>
>

[Roger]

On 26 May 2006 20:35:40 -0700, "greenwavepilot"
> wrote:

>Well, I just hit 30 and realized that I am too old to finish my PPL,
>and will never try again. Since the arrival of my kid I had to face the
>hard cold fact that I could buy lessons and avgas or diapers and baby
>food and daycare. So all my PPL stuff is currently on Ebay.
>
>So...
>I don't look up anymore when I hear that piston single.
>I don't want to ever get near an aircraft again.
>It makes me sick even thinking about it.
>
>Now I just gotta wean myself from accessing these forums.

I don't see any reason above to give up on flying. Many of us have
gone through the same thing. We may have put flying on hold a few
years, or even decades, but we never gave up on it.

I started flying way back in 63. Then a wife, two kids and a new home
in the country came along. I sold my share in the flying club and with
only a couple of exceptions never got back into an airplane except for
flying commercial until 87. The kids were now grown and gone, I had a
new wife (who is still putting up with me after 22 years), a much
smaller home, and to top it off went back to college full time to earn
a Bachelors degree in CS.

So, although I gave up flying for 24 years I_never_gave_up_on_flying.
Since 87 I earned my PPL and instrument rating. I've also flown over
1300 hours as PIC, was partner in Cherokee 180 and now have my own
plane albeit a plane that will turn 46 this Fall. The airworthy
certificate shows 9/11/59.

Think positive. Many of these things take time, but never give up on
your dreams.

Good Luck,

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

[[email protected]]

Adam Aulick wrote:
> Jim Logajan wrote:
> > If you're looking at the 701, you might also want to take a look at the
> > Savannah:
> > http://www.skykits.com/
>
> Apparently the Savannah is a direct copy of the 701:
> <http://www.zenithair.com/stolch701/7-photo-copies.html#Ultraflight>
>
> Is it legal in the US, to sell kits built from somebody else's
> (copyrighted) plans, without permission? On reflection, I can't think
> of a reason why it wouldn't be, but I can see where the original
> designer would be irritated.
>

No. The kit is a copy, in a tangible medium, of the
original.

Small changes may be sufficient to eliminate infringement--
at least that is the case for furniture or cookbook recipes.

For a better discussion you can post your question to
misc.legal.moderated.

--

FF

[[email protected]]

Morgans wrote:
> "Jim Logajan" > wrote in message
> .. .
> > "Morgans" > wrote:
> >> "Adam Aulick" > wrote
> >>
> >>> Apparently the Savannah is a direct copy of the 701:
> >>> <http://www.zenithair.com/stolch701/7-photo-copies.html#Ultraflight>
> >>
> >> Yep, and the 701 folks raise a lot of questions about the safety of said
> >> copy. Go to Zenith.com and Poke around, before you make up your mind.
> >>
> >> Try http://www.zenithair.com/stolch701/7-photo-copies.html
> >
> > Zenith seems to want to have it both ways: claims it's an exact copy, yet
> > raises questions about its safety. If it were "just" a copy, Zenith would
> > be in the position of questioning the safety of its own design.
>
> Granted, there is a lot of reading there, but not so, according to them.
>
> There was one incident that I remember off the top of my head, but Z
> increased it's gross, by re-engineering the spar, or something, a bit
> beefier, and within a few days, S said their gross weight was up to match
> it, with no noticeable change in the affected parts. There were more
> examples, I think.
>

Near the bottom of this page:

http://www.zenithair.com/stolch701/7-photo-copies.html#Ultraflight

(In 2001, the design gross weight of the STOL CH 701 was increased
to 1,100 lbs. from 950 lbs. by redesigning the wing spar and numerous
other structural components. Nearly overnight, copies were subsequently

marketed with a gross weight increase to 1,100 lbs. - with no apparent
design or structural changes to justify the gross weight increase).

> Do you really think Z would be stupid enough to say S was unsafe, if there
> were no differences to point at?

And higher up on that page:

In flight testing the Savannah, Gratton notes that the take-off and
landing performance of the aircraft is 500 ft. and 460 ft.
respectively,
with climb at 600 fpm and cruise at 80 mph. These performance
figures are notably inferior than those for the STOL CH 701 - an
indication that the Savannah's modifications adversely affect
performance, not to mention flight characteristics.

--

FF

[Scott]

My personal belief is that if you really want to fly, you will find a
way to afford it. Cutting out those $3.50 Starbuck's Coffees (5 days a
week) will save you $70 a month. That should be enough to rent a Cessna
150 for an hour. Cutting back on a few other things should free up some
more money. Realistically, you should aim for at least one hour a week
of flight instruction. That's about right, but don't get discouraged if
you only end up with an hour or two a month. KEEP PLUGGING AWAY! Don't
wait until reitrement to learn to fly. Here is why I say that...my dad
started to fly at age 35 with a friend in the friend's Cessna 140. Dad
flew with him until the guy sold his 140. Dad was faced with ending his
lessons or buying a 140. He bought a 140 (not the instructors plane)
and continued. That was back in 1975. He still owns it. Dad is now
68. A couple of weeks ago they found a tumor on his pancreas. This
past Thursday he had surgery and lost part of his pancreas and had his
intestinal plumbing shortened and re-routed. It was cancerous.
Prognosis is good, but now he is diabetic and our family doctor (and
also our Aviation Medical Examiner) says his flying days are over. Dad
has had many good years of flying, but is pretty sad about the "no more
flying" bit. The good news is that my brother and I both caught the
flying bug. We are both pilots, so we can ferry dad around (riding is
better than no flying at all!!) As Nike says...JUST DO IT! You will
NEVER regret the decision to fly...

Scott


Roger wrote:
> On Wed, 24 May 2006 09:02:20 -0700, "R.W. Behan"
> > wrote:
>
>
>>There can be no better source of advice than this group for my question: am
>>I too old to take up flying--and building an airplane?
>
>
> As far as learning to fly age should play no role unless you are too
> young to solo. <:-))
>
> The only requirement is that you are in good health both physically
> and mentally and can pass the physical, or at least in good enough
> health to be safe if going for the sport class license.
>
> However that clarification at the end... Building an airplane does
> cast doubts on the state of your mental health.
>
>
>>Full disclosure. As a young man in the Korean War I was an aviation
>>machinist's mate in the Navy. As a forestry student in the late '50's I was
>>a smokejumper, so I have quite a bit of experience in the ultimate maneuver:
>>abandoning an airplane in flight. As a forester in Southeast Alaska, I had
>>many hours of time flying with a bush pilot, as a passenger. Lots of
>>airplanes in my background, but I'm now 73.
>>
>>I find the Zenith STOL's irresistible. The 701, the 2-seater, can be flown
>>with a 10-hour sport license, so at my age--and limited time out there
>>ahead--it might make sense to focus on that airplane. But I'd really prefer
>>the 801, the 4-place plane. It would take longer to get the necessary
>>private pilot's license--40 hours of flying time instead of 10--but I see
>>that as a huge advantage: nothing beats experience. And flight training and
>>airplane building could proceed simultaneously, couldn't they?
>
>
> You'd probably have the license long before the plane is ready to fly.
>
>>I've enjoyed a great deal following the discussions on this board, and I've
>>learned a lot here. Maybe it has been the stimulus for my cockamamie dream.
>
>
> If you can still dream you aren't too old to fly.
> All too often people leave their dreams when they leave their youth
> behind. I find that most pilots seem to have brought their dreams with
> them into adulthood. OTOH I think quite a few brought their child
> hoods with them.<:-))
>
> There are some on this group, at least at times and I think they still
> lurk, that flew air show aerobatics well past your age.
>
> As far as building you might also look into quick build kits and
> builder assist programs to get the plane in the air a lot sooner, but
> those both add quite a bit to the cost of the airplane.
>
> There are about 5 or 6 planes I'd love to build, but the odds are I'll
> never get the G-III finished at the rate I've been going.
>
> Good Luck,
>
> Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
> (N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
> www.rogerhalstead.com
>
>
>>Your knowledgeable comments will be most appreciated, and thanks a million.
>>
>>Dick Behan
>>
>>

[Scott]

ONLY 46 years old? My first plane was built in 1947. Dad's 140 was
built in '47 and it still flies! (Although, from my other post about
dad's pancreas cancer, he will not be PIC of it anymore, but it WILL
continue to fly with dad as passenger!!)

Scott
N0EDV to all my ham friends :)



Roger wrote:

> On 26 May 2006 20:35:40 -0700, "greenwavepilot"
> > wrote:
>
>
>>Well, I just hit 30 and realized that I am too old to finish my PPL,
>>and will never try again. Since the arrival of my kid I had to face the
>>hard cold fact that I could buy lessons and avgas or diapers and baby
>>food and daycare. So all my PPL stuff is currently on Ebay.
>>
>>So...
>>I don't look up anymore when I hear that piston single.
>>I don't want to ever get near an aircraft again.
>>It makes me sick even thinking about it.
>>
>>Now I just gotta wean myself from accessing these forums.
>
>
> I don't see any reason above to give up on flying. Many of us have
> gone through the same thing. We may have put flying on hold a few
> years, or even decades, but we never gave up on it.
>
> I started flying way back in 63. Then a wife, two kids and a new home
> in the country came along. I sold my share in the flying club and with
> only a couple of exceptions never got back into an airplane except for
> flying commercial until 87. The kids were now grown and gone, I had a
> new wife (who is still putting up with me after 22 years), a much
> smaller home, and to top it off went back to college full time to earn
> a Bachelors degree in CS.
>
> So, although I gave up flying for 24 years I_never_gave_up_on_flying.
> Since 87 I earned my PPL and instrument rating. I've also flown over
> 1300 hours as PIC, was partner in Cherokee 180 and now have my own
> plane albeit a plane that will turn 46 this Fall. The airworthy
> certificate shows 9/11/59.
>
> Think positive. Many of these things take time, but never give up on
> your dreams.
>
> Good Luck,
>
> Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
> (N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
> www.rogerhalstead.com

[Morgans]

"Scott" > wrote

> Prognosis is good, but now he is diabetic and our family doctor (and also
> our Aviation Medical Examiner) says his flying days are over. Dad has had
> many good years of flying, but is pretty sad about the "no more flying"
> bit.

If he recovers to the point that his mind and reactions are still good,
there is always sport pilot. As long as he does not try to go get another
medical, he is still qualified to fly as PIC for sport pilot, if he can say
that for that day, he is OK.

Something to think about.
--
Jim in NC

[Scott]

We've thought about Sport Pilot, but we don't know anything about
Diabetes yet as nobody in the family has ever been diabetic. And, not
knowing about it, we worry about things we've heard like diabetic shock,
etc. Being up there and becoming incapacitated would not be a good
thing. The other problem, although probably minor in comparison, is
that both of dad's planes are not Sport Plane qualified. He would need
to get another plane...something like a Cub or a Champ. The Cessna 140
and 150 are too heavy. Technically, there are always ultralights as well...

Scott



Morgans wrote:
> "Scott" > wrote
>
>
>>Prognosis is good, but now he is diabetic and our family doctor (and also
>>our Aviation Medical Examiner) says his flying days are over. Dad has had
>>many good years of flying, but is pretty sad about the "no more flying"
>>bit.
>
>
> If he recovers to the point that his mind and reactions are still good,
> there is always sport pilot. As long as he does not try to go get another
> medical, he is still qualified to fly as PIC for sport pilot, if he can say
> that for that day, he is OK.
>
> Something to think about.

[Scott]

To the original poster, I would add:

Don't wait until you think you will be able to afford it (getting your
pilot's license). That day will never come. Something else to take
your money will always come along! Some things just have to be done
without rationalizing the cost. I CAN guarantee that you will not want
to be on your death bed wishing you had done it. Once you fly, you will
never be able to hear a plane overhead and not look up and wish you were
there (a very poor rip off of a Leonardo DaVinci quote)...

Scott



Morgans wrote:

> "Scott" > wrote
>
>
>>Prognosis is good, but now he is diabetic and our family doctor (and also
>>our Aviation Medical Examiner) says his flying days are over. Dad has had
>>many good years of flying, but is pretty sad about the "no more flying"
>>bit.
>
>
> If he recovers to the point that his mind and reactions are still good,
> there is always sport pilot. As long as he does not try to go get another
> medical, he is still qualified to fly as PIC for sport pilot, if he can say
> that for that day, he is OK.
>
> Something to think about.

[R.W. Behan]

Scott, thanks for the encouragement. And I agree: you don't want to get to
the end of the line wishing you'd done something it was possible to do--but
you thought you couldn't or shouldn't. So I'll pop for the lessons and not
blink an eye.

Thanks again,

Dick Behan



"Scott" > wrote in message
.. .
> To the original poster, I would add:
>
> Don't wait until you think you will be able to afford it (getting your
> pilot's license). That day will never come. Something else to take your
> money will always come along! Some things just have to be done without
> rationalizing the cost. I CAN guarantee that you will not want to be on
> your death bed wishing you had done it. Once you fly, you will never be
> able to hear a plane overhead and not look up and wish you were there (a
> very poor rip off of a Leonardo DaVinci quote)...
>
> Scott
>
>
>
> Morgans wrote:
>
>> "Scott" > wrote
>>
>>
>>>Prognosis is good, but now he is diabetic and our family doctor (and also
>>>our Aviation Medical Examiner) says his flying days are over. Dad has
>>>had many good years of flying, but is pretty sad about the "no more
>>>flying" bit.
>>
>>
>> If he recovers to the point that his mind and reactions are still good,
>> there is always sport pilot. As long as he does not try to go get
>> another medical, he is still qualified to fly as PIC for sport pilot, if
>> he can say that for that day, he is OK.
>>
>> Something to think about.

[me]

Scott wrote:

> We've thought about Sport Pilot, but we don't know anything about
> Diabetes yet as nobody in the family has ever been diabetic. And, not
> knowing about it, we worry about things we've heard like diabetic shock,
> etc. Being up there and becoming incapacitated would not be a good
> thing. The other problem, although probably minor in comparison, is
> that both of dad's planes are not Sport Plane qualified. He would need
> to get another plane...something like a Cub or a Champ. The Cessna 140
> and 150 are too heavy. Technically, there are always ultralights as
> well...
>
> Scott
>
>
>
> Morgans wrote:
>
>> "Scott" > wrote
>>
>>
>>> Prognosis is good, but now he is diabetic and our family doctor (and
>>> also our Aviation Medical Examiner) says his flying days are over.
>>> Dad has had many good years of flying, but is pretty sad about the
>>> "no more flying" bit.
>>
>>
>>
>> If he recovers to the point that his mind and reactions are still
>> good, there is always sport pilot. As long as he does not try to go
>> get another medical, he is still qualified to fly as PIC for sport
>> pilot, if he can say that for that day, he is OK.
>>
>> Something to think about.


Is this really full-blown type II diabetes?

Or Gen-X type glucose intolerance?

[Morgans]

"Scott" > wrote

> We've thought about Sport Pilot, but we don't know anything about Diabetes
> yet as nobody in the family has ever been diabetic. And, not knowing
> about it, we worry about things we've heard like diabetic shock, etc.
> Being up there and becoming incapacitated would not be a good thing.

There is no reason that a diabetic can not be demonstrated to be stable
enough to fly a plane. I'm sure you need to go though the educational steps
of learning this for yourself, though.

Blood sugar does not change immediately. Testing frequently will give a
good indication of what needs to happen to keep within blood sugar ranges.
Also, there are things like insulin pumps, which deliver a constant supply
of insulin, and make ordinary life quite predictable.

> The other problem, although probably minor in comparison, is that both of
> dad's planes are not Sport Plane qualified. He would need to get another
> plane...something like a Cub or a Champ. The Cessna 140 and 150 are too
> heavy. Technically, there are always ultralights as well...

Ah, yes, those are problems, but changes are sometimes hard though necessary
steps, in continuing a way of life.

When it comes right down to it, if diabetes is the only problem, are you
positive that a medical can not still be approved? It was my understanding
the it was possible to get a medical (perhaps for 6 months at a time) with
demonstrated control of diabetes.

I do wish you luck and good fortune, in finding the correct balance, for
your dad.
--
Jim in NC

[Scott]

Hi Dick,

I KNOW you won't regret the decision! Once you are inducted into the
flying brotherhood, you will become a life member! Good luck with your
training. It is hard work at times, but the rewards are great.

Scott


R.W. Behan wrote:

> Scott, thanks for the encouragement. And I agree: you don't want to get to
> the end of the line wishing you'd done something it was possible to do--but
> you thought you couldn't or shouldn't. So I'll pop for the lessons and not
> blink an eye.
>
> Thanks again,
>
> Dick Behan
>

[Scott]

Well, our family physician, who happens to be the same guy that has
given us our medicals since the 1970s, told dad his flying days were
over. I will investigate this with my current flight surgeon, just as a
"second opinion." His words on this might be from knowing more about
the standards of flight physicals than I know. Demonstrated ability may
come into play, or as you suggest, maybe he will get a waiver and have
to get a physical at some period other than every 24 months. We're
hoping for the best at this point...

Thanks for the kind words!!

Scott


Morgans wrote:

> "Scott" > wrote
>
>
>>We've thought about Sport Pilot, but we don't know anything about Diabetes
>>yet as nobody in the family has ever been diabetic. And, not knowing
>>about it, we worry about things we've heard like diabetic shock, etc.
>>Being up there and becoming incapacitated would not be a good thing.
>
>
> There is no reason that a diabetic can not be demonstrated to be stable
> enough to fly a plane. I'm sure you need to go though the educational steps
> of learning this for yourself, though.
>
> Blood sugar does not change immediately. Testing frequently will give a
> good indication of what needs to happen to keep within blood sugar ranges.
> Also, there are things like insulin pumps, which deliver a constant supply
> of insulin, and make ordinary life quite predictable.
>
>
>>The other problem, although probably minor in comparison, is that both of
>>dad's planes are not Sport Plane qualified. He would need to get another
>>plane...something like a Cub or a Champ. The Cessna 140 and 150 are too
>>heavy. Technically, there are always ultralights as well...
>
>
> Ah, yes, those are problems, but changes are sometimes hard though necessary
> steps, in continuing a way of life.
>
> When it comes right down to it, if diabetes is the only problem, are you
> positive that a medical can not still be approved? It was my understanding
> the it was possible to get a medical (perhaps for 6 months at a time) with
> demonstrated control of diabetes.
>
> I do wish you luck and good fortune, in finding the correct balance, for
> your dad.

[Modelflyer]

"Scott" > wrote in message
.. .
> We've thought about Sport Pilot, but we don't know anything about Diabetes
> yet as nobody in the family has ever been diabetic. And, not knowing
> about it, we worry about things we've heard like diabetic shock, etc.
> Being up there and becoming incapacitated would not be a good thing. The
> other problem, although probably minor in comparison, is that both of
> dad's planes are not Sport Plane qualified. He would need to get another
> plane...something like a Cub or a Champ. The Cessna 140 and 150 are too
> heavy. Technically, there are always ultralights as well...
>
> Scott
>
Hi Scott,
How bad is your fathers Diabetes, if he can be controlled on glucophage then
he will never get a Hypo, (very low blood glucose level) in that case he
should be able to fly but you will have to ignore your local ame and talk
directely with the FAA.
--
..
..
Cheers,
Model Flyer
MS880B EI-BFR

>
>
> Morgans wrote:
>> "Scott" > wrote
>>
>>
>>>Prognosis is good, but now he is diabetic and our family doctor (and also
>>>our Aviation Medical Examiner) says his flying days are over. Dad has
>>>had many good years of flying, but is pretty sad about the "no more
>>>flying" bit.
>>
>>
>> If he recovers to the point that his mind and reactions are still good,
>> there is always sport pilot. As long as he does not try to go get
>> another medical, he is still qualified to fly as PIC for sport pilot, if
>> he can say that for that day, he is OK.
>>
>> Something to think about.

[Scott]

Thanks for the tip. I will check into it!

Scott



Modelflyer wrote:

> "Scott" > wrote in message
> .. .
>
>>We've thought about Sport Pilot, but we don't know anything about Diabetes
>>yet as nobody in the family has ever been diabetic. And, not knowing
>>about it, we worry about things we've heard like diabetic shock, etc.
>>Being up there and becoming incapacitated would not be a good thing. The
>>other problem, although probably minor in comparison, is that both of
>>dad's planes are not Sport Plane qualified. He would need to get another
>>plane...something like a Cub or a Champ. The Cessna 140 and 150 are too
>>heavy. Technically, there are always ultralights as well...
>>
>>Scott
>>
>
> Hi Scott,
> How bad is your fathers Diabetes, if he can be controlled on glucophage then
> he will never get a Hypo, (very low blood glucose level) in that case he
> should be able to fly but you will have to ignore your local ame and talk
> directely with the FAA.

[Rich S.]

"Modelflyer" > wrote in message
...> Hi Scott,
> How bad is your fathers Diabetes, if he can be controlled on glucophage
> then he will never get a Hypo, (very low blood glucose level) in that case
> he should be able to fly but you will have to ignore your local ame and
> talk directely with the FAA.

I do not believe this is the current situation. The FAA has recently (or
will shortly) give authorization to some AME's to issue waivers on certain
medical conditions.

My advice is to ignore any advice you receive on Usenet and get ahold of
AOPA. Their medical staff are the most authoritative resource on the subject
and have *your* interest at heart - not the FAA's. If you need to join the
AOPA to gain the benefit of this, please do - it will be the best investment
you can make.

http://www.aopa.org/

Rich S.

[Morgans]

"Rich S." > wrote

> My advice is to ignore any advice you receive on Usenet and get ahold of
> AOPA. Their medical staff are the most authoritative resource on the
> subject and have *your* interest at heart - not the FAA's. If you need to
> join the AOPA to gain the benefit of this, please do - it will be the best
> investment you can make.

I would not argue against contacting AOPA, in any way. However, the only
advise he should pay attention to (in this case) from usenet, is to not
necessarily give up on flying (or his dad flying) because of diabetes.

That is certainly good advise, in this situation, I think you would agree.
--
Jim in NC

[RapidRonnie]

abripl wrote:
> With your enthusiasm and past experience you should be able to pass
> your private training.
>
> The main issue is your health. Is it OK to pass the FAA medical. For
> FAA medical standards see http://www.leftseat.com/FAAforms.htm
>
> Also expect to pay about $6K for your training. The average training
> flight time is more like 60 hours and not 40.

That's because most civilian flight training is an unorganized joke.
40 hours is more than enough in a structured program. How many hours do
you think Air Force UPT consists of?

[mark]

"RapidRonnie" > wrote in message
ups.com...
>
> abripl wrote:
>> With your enthusiasm and past experience you should be able to pass
>> your private training.
>>
>> The main issue is your health. Is it OK to pass the FAA medical. For
>> FAA medical standards see http://www.leftseat.com/FAAforms.htm
>>
>> Also expect to pay about $6K for your training. The average training
>> flight time is more like 60 hours and not 40.
>
> That's because most civilian flight training is an unorganized joke.
> 40 hours is more than enough in a structured program. How many hours do
> you think Air Force UPT consists of?
>

You also realize that the Air Force has a selection process that only takes
a very small percentage of the applicant's. Out of that they are under no
obligation to help out those selected. If a student struggles for any
reason, the military just washes them out.

Yes there are many areas where civilian flight training could be improved,
but to paint the whole industry as an unorganized joke is both inaccurate
and unfair.

I would also encourage those with diabetics to look into the light sport
aircraft. Lots of fun without the hassles of jumping through the FAA hoops.
Once you start the FAA paperwork though, you lose the self certify function
of LSA if you do not get the medical. If a Light Sport Aircraft will meet
your needs, then I would avoid the entire process.

[Jim Carriere]

mark wrote:
> "RapidRonnie" > wrote in message
> ups.com...
>> abripl wrote:
>>> With your enthusiasm and past experience you should be able to pass
>>> your private training.
>>>
>>> The main issue is your health. Is it OK to pass the FAA medical. For
>>> FAA medical standards see http://www.leftseat.com/FAAforms.htm
>>>
>>> Also expect to pay about $6K for your training. The average training
>>> flight time is more like 60 hours and not 40.
>> That's because most civilian flight training is an unorganized joke.
>> 40 hours is more than enough in a structured program. How many hours do
>> you think Air Force UPT consists of?
>>
>
> You also realize that the Air Force has a selection process that only takes
> a very small percentage of the applicant's. Out of that they are under no
> obligation to help out those selected. If a student struggles for any
> reason, the military just washes them out.

As a military flight instructor (and a former student) I have experience
on both sides of the classroom and cockpit and so I respectfully
disagree with the last statement of this paragraph. This is not to say
I completely disagree, the reality is in the middle. It depends on a
lot of things, but "struggles for any reason... just washes them out" is
far from true.

Military training has some unique advantages. It is condensed so
students have to "relearn" less on each flight. The threat of washing
out is a great motivator, although that stress is also an impediment to
learning.

> Yes there are many areas where civilian flight training could be improved,
> but to paint the whole industry as an unorganized joke is both inaccurate
> and unfair.

I agree with this.

I think that both systems (civil and military) success depends more on
students than instructors. A good student will be successful in either
system, a good or bad instructor can make or break an OK student, and
finally a bad student will likely fail no matter what. No absolutes
though :)

I think you'll find differences in organizational culture (don't I sound
like a bean-counter) between different civil and between different
military schools. I also think you'll find some brilliant, some
mediocre, and many "in between" examples in both. Neither is perfect,
but we're talking apples and oranges.

[John Halpenny]

Jim Carriere wrote:
>
> I think you'll find differences in organizational culture (don't I sound
> like a bean-counter) between different civil and between different
> military schools. I also think you'll find some brilliant, some
> mediocre, and many "in between" examples in both. Neither is perfect,
> but we're talking apples and oranges.

My daughter won a flying scholarship with the Canadian Air Cadets.
Canadian rules require 45 hours for a private pilot license and her
course was 48 hours at a flight school, plus a place to live for 6
weeks. All of the dozen people in her course passed within the allotted
time and many had an hour or two left for a checkout in a 172.
There were a couple of reasons they were so successfull. There is
stiff competition for these courses, and the winners are motivated,
young, smart and have done considerable work with at least the theory
of flight. The course is intense, and when you are not flying, you are
watching others fly, studying flight or hanging out with others who are
as keen as you. It is very different from taking a course once a week.

John Halpenny

[Rich S.]

"Morgans" > wrote in message
...
>
> I would not argue against contacting AOPA, in any way. However, the only
> advise he should pay attention to (in this case) from usenet, is to not
> necessarily give up on flying (or his dad flying) because of diabetes.
>
> That is certainly good advise, in this situation, I think you would agree.

As a fellow who takes Glucophage twice a day, I do agree. However, you know
I was referring to the contradictory advice that was appearing regarding FAA
regulations concerning AME's and what they can or cannot do.

Rich S.

[Morgans]

"Rich S." > wrote

> As a fellow who takes Glucophage twice a day, I do agree. However, you
> know I was referring to the contradictory advice that was appearing
> regarding FAA regulations concerning AME's and what they can or cannot do.

Right. I just wanted to be sure that the message got though, (not to you,
but to the OP) that diabetes is not necessarily a flight ending problem.
--
Jim in NC

[Scott]

Just to be sure I am clear on this, you still have a (3rd class) medical
and do fly or do you fly as a Sport Pilot?

Scott



Rich S. wrote:


>
>
> As a fellow who takes Glucophage twice a day, I do agree. However, you know
> I was referring to the contradictory advice that was appearing regarding FAA
> regulations concerning AME's and what they can or cannot do.
>
> Rich S.
>
>

[Rich S.]

"Scott" > wrote in message
.. .
> Just to be sure I am clear on this, you still have a (3rd class) medical
> and do fly or do you fly as a Sport Pilot?

Scott..........

I let my medical expire a couple of years ago and now fly under S.P. rules.
To be clear, I had a valid Class III medical and also had Type II diabetes,
well controlled with oral meds and a stent in one coronary artery.

I can still pass the cardiac tests - the big problem is they will only
validate the medical for 1 year and then I must retest. The test includes
either an angiogram (which is very expensive and carries surgical risks,
i.e. 1% of subjects die during the procedure) or a nuclear imaging study
(which is very expensive and not all that accurate). There are many other
tests involved as well, a maximal treadmill stress test, blood lipid
profile, hemoglobin A1c, statements from your primary physician,
ophthalmologist & cardiologist

The delays in Oklahoma City are such that it takes six months to grant the
waiver. In effect, this results in six months of flying and then six months
of waiting for renewal. Another snag is that by the time your application
arrives at the desk of the person who will review the extensive tests, the
*&^%$ tests are out of date. Then they send back a request for new tests AND
YOU GO BACK TO THE END OF THE LINE!

Without assistance from someone like AOPA, it is likely you will forget to
dot an i or cross a t when submitting all the paperwork. Guess what happens.
They send it back for re-submission AND YOU GO BACK TO THE END OF THE LINE!

For me, it is not worth the hassle. I am happy to fly under Sport Pilot
limitations.

Rich S.

[Wayne Paul]

Here is a milestone that few of us has experienced:

The Hobbs, New Mexico, newspaper, the News-Sun, featured an article on Paul
Elliott on the front page of Sunday's edition. It seems Paul is celebrating
the 65th aniversity of the issuance of his pilots license. Paul is a local
Hobbs luminary, having been a glider pilot, tow pilot and CFI-G for many,
many years. He is a member of the Hobbs Soaring Society and is currently
serving as Vice President.

Wayne
HP-14 N990 "6F"
http://www.soaridaho.com/Schreder/HP-14/N990/N990.html

[Scott]

Thanks Rich...I wanted to be clear we were talking the same language. I
will investigate flying with diabetes for my dad...

Scott




Rich S. wrote:

> "Scott" > wrote in message
> .. .
>
>>Just to be sure I am clear on this, you still have a (3rd class) medical
>>and do fly or do you fly as a Sport Pilot?
>
>
> Scott..........
>
> I let my medical expire a couple of years ago and now fly under S.P. rules.
> To be clear, I had a valid Class III medical and also had Type II diabetes,
> well controlled with oral meds and a stent in one coronary artery.
>
> I can still pass the cardiac tests - the big problem is they will only
> validate the medical for 1 year and then I must retest. The test includes
> either an angiogram (which is very expensive and carries surgical risks,
> i.e. 1% of subjects die during the procedure) or a nuclear imaging study
> (which is very expensive and not all that accurate). There are many other
> tests involved as well, a maximal treadmill stress test, blood lipid
> profile, hemoglobin A1c, statements from your primary physician,
> ophthalmologist & cardiologist
>
> The delays in Oklahoma City are such that it takes six months to grant the
> waiver. In effect, this results in six months of flying and then six months
> of waiting for renewal. Another snag is that by the time your application
> arrives at the desk of the person who will review the extensive tests, the
> *&^%$ tests are out of date. Then they send back a request for new tests AND
> YOU GO BACK TO THE END OF THE LINE!
>
> Without assistance from someone like AOPA, it is likely you will forget to
> dot an i or cross a t when submitting all the paperwork. Guess what happens.
> They send it back for re-submission AND YOU GO BACK TO THE END OF THE LINE!
>
> For me, it is not worth the hassle. I am happy to fly under Sport Pilot
> limitations.
>
> Rich S.
>
>
>
>
>

[UltraJohn]

Rich S. wrote:
> request for new tests AND YOU GO BACK TO THE END OF THE LINE!
>
>
> Rich S.
<much snipping!>

Yes Rich same experience here and my insurance paid for it but it was sooooo
frustrating going through all the hoops for only 6 months of flight.
The really frustrating part was my on my second special issuance I having
more experience with it dotted all the i's etc etc and one of the
requirements was a written eval from the cardiologist which he provided as
part of the test results, but noooo they wanted a SEPARATE eval so he had
to write basically the same things on a separate page which they accepted
but like you said I was put to the end of the line, another 2 months!
I let it expire this last time (March) and will fly SP, the aggravation
would be more likely to cause a heart attack than the original condition!
John

PS in the 3 years since my angioplasty and stent I have run about 15
marathons(some as fast as 7:15 per mile pace) and 10 to 12 races longer
than a marathon plus I've logged over 10,000 (yes ten thousand) miles
running since then with out a blip. Yet they still consider me such a
serious risk! I know a lot of Class 2's or 1's are worse off than me!

[Montblack]

("UltraJohn" wrote)
> PS in the 3 years since my angioplasty and stent I have run about 15
> marathons(some as fast as 7:15 per mile pace) and 10 to 12 races longer
> than a marathon plus I've logged over 10,000 (yes ten thousand) miles
> running since then with out a blip. Yet they still consider me such a
> serious risk! I know a lot of Class 2's or 1's are worse off than me!


Heck, I thought Ultra was for Ultralight. My mental picture of you has just
changed. :-)

Have you run the Twin Cities Marathon?
"The Most Beautiful Urban Marathon in America"

I dated a gal in the early 90's who was bummed out with her 3:40:37 time
because 3:40 was the cut-off for Boston. The next day she learned "anything"
in the 3:40 time period qualified. She was very happy - and she ran Boston
the next year.


Montblack

[Rich S.]

"UltraJohn" > wrote in message
ink.net...
>
> PS in the 3 years since my angioplasty and stent I have run about 15
> marathons(some as fast as 7:15 per mile pace) and 10 to 12 races longer
> than a marathon plus I've logged over 10,000 (yes ten thousand) miles
> running since then with out a blip. Yet they still consider me such a
> serious risk! I know a lot of Class 2's or 1's are worse off than me!

Good for you, John! I wish I could say the same, but I'm afraid my worn out
vertebrae won't let me get out and bounce up and down. :)

I could legally drive a gasoline tanker across the Tacoma Narrows bridge
during rush hour, but I couldn't fly a Cessna 140. Does that make sense?

Rich S.
Private, Commercial, Instrument, CFI and now - Sport Pilot.

[John Ammeter]

Rich S. wrote:
> "UltraJohn" > wrote in message
> ink.net...
>
>>PS in the 3 years since my angioplasty and stent I have run about 15
>>marathons(some as fast as 7:15 per mile pace) and 10 to 12 races longer
>>than a marathon plus I've logged over 10,000 (yes ten thousand) miles
>>running since then with out a blip. Yet they still consider me such a
>>serious risk! I know a lot of Class 2's or 1's are worse off than me!
>
>
> Good for you, John! I wish I could say the same, but I'm afraid my worn out
> vertebrae won't let me get out and bounce up and down. :)
>
> I could legally drive a gasoline tanker across the Tacoma Narrows bridge
> during rush hour, but I couldn't fly a Cessna 140. Does that make sense?
>
> Rich S.
> Private, Commercial, Instrument, CFI and now - Sport Pilot.
>
>

Rich,

I thought the "medical" for a CDL was pretty much the same as for a
Third Class....

BTW, how does the Emeraude manage to qualify for SP? I would think it
was too heavy and can fly too fast. Isn't it pretty close to the RV6 in
weight and speed?

John

[Rich S.]

"John Ammeter" > wrote in message
news:oPGdnYhdgI_3gRrZnZ2dnUVZ_vGdnZ2d@cablespeedwa .com...
>
> I thought the "medical" for a CDL was pretty much the same as for a Third
> Class....

Oh - I wouldn't do it for hire. Just drive my personal tanker around. . .

> BTW, how does the Emeraude manage to qualify for SP? I would think it was
> too heavy and can fly too fast. Isn't it pretty close to the RV6 in
> weight and speed?

I can tell you haven't flown in the Emeraude, John. While the Super
Emeraudes are a bit bigger and weigh a bunch more, the earlier design, like
mine, is well within the weight limit, even with an O-290. I think the
prototype was just over 700 lbs. and mine weighs in at 820 dry, giving a 500
lb. useful load.

As far as speed goes well, I used to wish it was faster, but it doesn't
compare with the RV series. It is a bit strange because they use virtually
the same airfoil (23012 on the Em) and have the same wing area. Mine cruises
right at 120 knots at 2475 rpm (75% and maximum sustained cruise speed).
Sure, I can push it faster than that, but I don't.

We took three days to get to Oshkosh last year. My RV friends won't fly long
cross country's with me.

Rich S.

[UltraJohn]

Montblack wrote:

> Heck, I thought Ultra was for Ultralight. My mental picture of you has
> just
> changed. :-)
>
> Have you run the Twin Cities Marathon?
> "The Most Beautiful Urban Marathon in America"
>
> I dated a gal in the early 90's who was bummed out with her 3:40:37 time
> because 3:40 was the cut-off for Boston. The next day she learned
> "anything" in the 3:40 time period qualified. She was very happy - and she
> ran Boston the next year.
>
>
> Montblack

I've run Boston 15 times! Mainly as a fun race, it's too late in the season
for me, I'm past my peak by then! I've had a few friends with the same
situation, thinking they missed the cut-off by seconds only to have me
inform them they were in, like you said they got happy quick!
One of my best friends (a 2:58 marathoner) she lives in Venice,CA now but
she was born and raised in New Brigton which is a suburb of Minneapolis.
Her parents are still there. I will run it either this or next year!
John
PS She a darn nice looking thing too! Unfortunately about 18 years my
younger! Drat!

[- Barnyard BOb -]

>I can tell you haven't flown in the Emeraude, John.
>
>We took three days to get to Oshkosh last year. My RV friends won't fly long
>cross country's with me.
>
>Rich S.

Trust me, Rich....
Your plane is NOT the problem. <g>

- Barnyard BOb -

The more people I meet,
the more I love my dog
and George Carlin humor.

[Rich S.]

"- Barnyard BOb -" > wrote in message
...
>
>>I can tell you haven't flown in the Emeraude, John.
>>
>>We took three days to get to Oshkosh last year. My RV friends won't fly
>>long
>>cross country's with me.
>>
>>Rich S.
>
> Trust me, Rich....
> Your plane is NOT the problem. <g>

So that was *you* standing behind me at Arlington when those ten oysters I
ate started to work!

Rich S.