Busted TFR, what to expect?

[bob]

Seems I busted a VIP TFR Monday near Sacramento (VP Cheney was in town
raising money for a couple of congressmen). On landing at my
destination I was asked by the airport manager to call an ATC number,
who got my info and said they would forward it to the local FSDO as a
"pilot deviation". I'm not disputing that I indeed was ignorant of the
TFR and violated it.

So what can I expect? I've already figured out that the Secret Service
isn't going to arrest me. My biggest concern is what it will do to my
insurance costs when I renew next year. Should I bother filing the
NASA ASRS form? Since I'm a PP-ASEL and flying is a hobby, I don't
otherwise care a lot if my license is suspended for a time or I end up
with a record.

[Dave Stadt]

"bob" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Seems I busted a VIP TFR Monday near Sacramento (VP Cheney was in town
> raising money for a couple of congressmen). On landing at my
> destination I was asked by the airport manager to call an ATC number,
> who got my info and said they would forward it to the local FSDO as a
> "pilot deviation". I'm not disputing that I indeed was ignorant of the
> TFR and violated it.
>
> So what can I expect? I've already figured out that the Secret Service
> isn't going to arrest me. My biggest concern is what it will do to my
> insurance costs when I renew next year. Should I bother filing the
> NASA ASRS form? Since I'm a PP-ASEL and flying is a hobby, I don't
> otherwise care a lot if my license is suspended for a time or I end up
> with a record.

Definitely fill out a NASA report. The couple of people I know that have
busted TFRs (President not VP) have had nothing done other than a couple of
questions. I don't see how insurance companies could care, you didn't cost
them anything.

[John Doe]

"bob" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Seems I busted a VIP TFR Monday near Sacramento (VP Cheney was in town
> raising money for a couple of congressmen). On landing at my
> destination I was asked by the airport manager to call an ATC number,
> who got my info and said they would forward it to the local FSDO as a
> "pilot deviation". I'm not disputing that I indeed was ignorant of the
> TFR and violated it.
>
> So what can I expect? I've already figured out that the Secret Service
> isn't going to arrest me. My biggest concern is what it will do to my
> insurance costs when I renew next year. Should I bother filing the
> NASA ASRS form? Since I'm a PP-ASEL and flying is a hobby, I don't
> otherwise care a lot if my license is suspended for a time or I end up
> with a record.
>

I had my first experience with a VIP TFR last weekend. Bush was in town and
I had gotten an email from AOPA notifying me of the TFR in my area. I
thought that was awesome that I got advance notice through email.

Anyway, I do my normal flight planning and sure enough, the TFR is active
over the top of my non-towered airfield.

I go out to the airfield, and for some strange reason, I kind of expected
the FBO to have posted something, somewhere, that there was an active TFR
over the top of this airfield, but nope, nothing. I'm not even sure anyone
at the FBO knew it was there.

I was just slightly suprised. So for all the pilots out there who don't
religously check the NOTAMS immediately before takeoff, you can all too
easily be bitten by a TFR.

Had my airfield been 2nm closer to the event, I would have been within the
restricted airspace and could have facen the worst case reprocutions if I
busted the airspace.

Luckily, I've learned to check NOTAMS prior to every flight, and following
the procedures, the TFR didn't delay me at all in getting on my way.

[Bob Fry]

>>>>> "JD" == John Doe > writes:

JD> I had my first experience with a VIP TFR last weekend. Bush
JD> was in town and I had gotten an email from AOPA notifying me
JD> of the TFR in my area.

Bush was in Sacto a few weeks ago and I too got the AOPA notification
by email. Because of that, and checking the extent of that TFR, I
decided not to risk it and simply didn't fly that weekend.

But for the TFR I violated, I didn't get a notice from AOPA. Why, I'm
not sure. And the local newspaper had nothing about Cheney's visit
until afterwards so I didn't know he was in town.

JD> Luckily, I've learned to check NOTAMS prior to every flight,
JD> and following the procedures, the TFR didn't delay me at all
JD> in getting on my way.

I rarely check NOTAMS or get a briefing for local VFR flights, and
quite honestly I doubt I'll change my habits. The FAA should
recognize that using NOTAMs alone are not enough. Maybe they should
take email addresses and locations from pilots (kinda like AOPA) and
send notices when a TFR is going to pop up in a given area.

Maybe they could reserve a frequency just to broadcast important area
NOTAMs. Pilots would get in the habit of checking it before takeoff
and during flight. Maybe area NOTAMs could be added on to AWOS
broadcasts. Something?

[Jon A]

Your punishment is to go dove hunting with Cheney next year. That'll
teach ya!

On 24 May 2006 16:35:39 -0700, "bob" > wrote:

>Seems I busted a VIP TFR Monday near Sacramento (VP Cheney was in town
>raising money for a couple of congressmen). On landing at my
>destination I was asked by the airport manager to call an ATC number,
>who got my info and said they would forward it to the local FSDO as a
>"pilot deviation". I'm not disputing that I indeed was ignorant of the
>TFR and violated it.
>
>So what can I expect? I've already figured out that the Secret Service
>isn't going to arrest me. My biggest concern is what it will do to my
>insurance costs when I renew next year. Should I bother filing the
>NASA ASRS form? Since I'm a PP-ASEL and flying is a hobby, I don't
>otherwise care a lot if my license is suspended for a time or I end up
>with a record.

[Roy Smith]

In article >, Bob Fry >
wrote:

> I rarely check NOTAMS or get a briefing for local VFR flights, and
> quite honestly I doubt I'll change my habits. The FAA should
> recognize that using NOTAMs alone are not enough.

There are lots of problems with the notam system. Still, it is the
official way the FAA notifies pilots of things like TFRs. If you're going
to stick your head in the sand and say you're not going to check for
notams, you deserve what you get when you bust a TFR.

[Jerry]

I usually check this FAA web page to see if there is a local TFR.

http://tfr.faa.gov/tfr_map_ims/html/index.html

Jerry in NC


"Bob Fry" > wrote in message
...
>>>>>> "JD" == John Doe > writes:
>
> JD> I had my first experience with a VIP TFR last weekend. Bush
> JD> was in town and I had gotten an email from AOPA notifying me
> JD> of the TFR in my area.
>
> Bush was in Sacto a few weeks ago and I too got the AOPA notification
> by email. Because of that, and checking the extent of that TFR, I
> decided not to risk it and simply didn't fly that weekend.
>
> But for the TFR I violated, I didn't get a notice from AOPA. Why, I'm
> not sure. And the local newspaper had nothing about Cheney's visit
> until afterwards so I didn't know he was in town.
>
> JD> Luckily, I've learned to check NOTAMS prior to every flight,
> JD> and following the procedures, the TFR didn't delay me at all
> JD> in getting on my way.
>
> I rarely check NOTAMS or get a briefing for local VFR flights, and
> quite honestly I doubt I'll change my habits. The FAA should
> recognize that using NOTAMs alone are not enough. Maybe they should
> take email addresses and locations from pilots (kinda like AOPA) and
> send notices when a TFR is going to pop up in a given area.
>
> Maybe they could reserve a frequency just to broadcast important area
> NOTAMs. Pilots would get in the habit of checking it before takeoff
> and during flight. Maybe area NOTAMs could be added on to AWOS
> broadcasts. Something?
>

[Peter R.]

Bob Fry > wrote:

<snip>
> Maybe they could reserve a frequency just to broadcast important area
> NOTAMs. Pilots would get in the habit of checking it before takeoff
> and during flight.

If a pilot cannot get in the habit of checking NOTAMs and TFRs before local
VFR flights using the current methods, what makes you think these same
pilots would get in the habit of checking a frequency for them?

--
Peter

[Jonathan Goodish]

In article . com>,
"bob" > wrote:

> Seems I busted a VIP TFR Monday near Sacramento (VP Cheney was in town
> raising money for a couple of congressmen). On landing at my
> destination I was asked by the airport manager to call an ATC number,
> who got my info and said they would forward it to the local FSDO as a
> "pilot deviation". I'm not disputing that I indeed was ignorant of the
> TFR and violated it.
>
> So what can I expect? I've already figured out that the Secret Service
> isn't going to arrest me. My biggest concern is what it will do to my
> insurance costs when I renew next year. Should I bother filing the
> NASA ASRS form? Since I'm a PP-ASEL and flying is a hobby, I don't
> otherwise care a lot if my license is suspended for a time or I end up
> with a record.


My advice would be to check the FAA's graphic TFR list at
http://tfr.faa.gov/tfr2/list.html prior to every flight.

If you can't (or won't) do that, I'm not sure what to tell you. It's
super easy. If your habits don't change, chances are that you will
continue to bust TFRs, and doing so may eventually result in more
serious consequences.



JKG

[Robert M. Gary]

My student was flying that day too. I didn't get an email from AOPA and
there was nothing in the paper. However the ATIS (SAC) reported the
airport was closed.

[Robert M. Gary]

Can anyone on this list actually claim to check for TFRs for every
local flight in the pattern? Who would have known the VP was going to
be in Sac? He came stealth.

-Robert

[Morgans]

"Bob Fry" > wrote

> Maybe they could reserve a frequency just to broadcast important area
> NOTAMs. Pilots would get in the habit of checking it before takeoff
> and during flight. Maybe area NOTAMs could be added on to AWOS
> broadcasts. Something?

I've often wondered why they do not use AWOS. It would take all of 5 or 10
seconds to announce a NOTAM, or at least tell of one's existence.

Yes, checking before departure is a "good thing" but there are always
NOTAM's that pop up while you are in the air.
--
Jim in NC

[Dale Falk]

In article om>,
"Robert M. Gary" > wrote:

> Can anyone on this list actually claim to check for TFRs for every
> local flight in the pattern? Who would have known the VP was going to
> be in Sac? He came stealth.
>
> -Robert
>

Yes. I was on the east coast when 9/11 occured and twice heard
controllers telling pilots that they were "almost launched" on..meaning
they'd almost scrambled fighters on them. Makes you pay attention.
Ever since I haven't flown without giving FSS a call and asking for any
TFRs. Saved my butt a couple years ago. There was a TFR close enough
to the drop zone I fly for that if I had taken off I would have
violated. The TFR was for some wildland firefighting training that was
being done...I would have never expected one that morning.

The phone call only takes a couple of minutes.

[Peter Duniho]

"Roy Smith" > wrote in message
...
> There are lots of problems with the notam system. Still, it is the
> official way the FAA notifies pilots of things like TFRs. If you're going
> to stick your head in the sand and say you're not going to check for
> notams, you deserve what you get when you bust a TFR.

Agreed.

[Peter Duniho]

"Robert M. Gary" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> Can anyone on this list actually claim to check for TFRs for every
> local flight in the pattern?

Yes. I have gotten a briefing for EVERY SINGLE FLIGHT I have ever made in
the US, and for all but one in Canada and the Bahamas. I admit, I made one
local flight in the Bahamas without a briefing, but that's it.

It's a basic part of the preflight actions. I also spend a good 15-20
minutes walking around my airplane before every flight, and there's a host
of other time-consuming things (fueling, driving to and from the airport,
sometimes a visit to the pilot shop, etc) surrounding my flying. An extra
10 minutes (though, usually it's only 5) to get a briefing is a no-brainer.

> Who would have known the VP was going to
> be in Sac? He came stealth.

If everyone knew he was coming, the TFR could have been assumed and no one
would have needed to check the NOTAMs. "He came stealth" is exactly why you
DO check NOTAMs.

Pete

[Ben Hallert]

Yep, every flight. It might be a difference in culture between younger
pilots like myself and people who have been flying longer. I did all
of my flight training after 9/11, and I trained in the LA basin, which
is somewhat busy. As a result, there was a bigger emphasis on checking
this stuff than my pilot friends who learned earlier.

Every single flight, I get a briefing to check for notams & TFRs. I do
most of my flying out in the boonies now, but I still call FSS. Heck,
I did pattern work the other day and still called 'em just to make
sure. It's a useful source of information, why not use the tools
available? I might not like the fact that these restrictions exist,
and I'll write a letter to my congressman, but with a couple minutes of
effort each flight, I can avoid being the guy waving to the F-16 off my
wing.

Ben Hallert
PP-ASEL

[Bob Noel]

In article om>,
"Robert M. Gary" > wrote:

> Can anyone on this list actually claim to check for TFRs for every
> local flight in the pattern? Who would have known the VP was going to
> be in Sac? He came stealth.

Yes.

I always always always get a briefing before every single flight.

--
Bob Noel
Looking for a sig the
lawyers will hate

[Martin Hotze]

On Wed, 24 May 2006 20:57:15 -0500, Jon A wrote:

>Your punishment is to go dove hunting with Cheney next year. That'll
>teach ya!

it is _really_ _funny_ to read the reactions. duck and hide, your elected
representatives are in town.


by now you have to deal with TFRs - sure, but what are you doing against
them (and all other restrictions and limitations they shove upon your ... -
not only aviation related)? moving to China because they tend to become
more liberal than you?


#m, Lenovo PCs, anybody? *ROTFL*
--
Lost the phone number of a good friend? Don't know whom the kids called?
Don't worry any longer! Call 1-800-2NSA ... we are here to help you!

[Roy Smith]

In article om>,
"Robert M. Gary" > wrote:

> Can anyone on this list actually claim to check for TFRs for every
> local flight in the pattern?

Yes. Absolutely.

[kontiki]

What is it with you guys busting TFR's ?? Don;t you ever get weather
briefings?? I can't figure it out. I have my students get a Wx
briefing before every flight, even if local that way we are informed.

Personally, I think most of these TFR are a stupid PITA but there is
littel dang excuse for a licensed pilot to bust one unless it were an
emergency.


John Doe wrote:
> "bob" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
>
>>Seems I busted a VIP TFR Monday near Sacramento (VP Cheney was in town
>>raising money for a couple of congressmen). On landing at my
>>destination I was asked by the airport manager to call an ATC number,
>>who got my info and said they would forward it to the local FSDO as a
>>"pilot deviation". I'm not disputing that I indeed was ignorant of the
>>TFR and violated it.
>>
>>So what can I expect? I've already figured out that the Secret Service
>>isn't going to arrest me. My biggest concern is what it will do to my
>>insurance costs when I renew next year. Should I bother filing the
>>NASA ASRS form? Since I'm a PP-ASEL and flying is a hobby, I don't
>>otherwise care a lot if my license is suspended for a time or I end up
>>with a record.
>>
>
>
> I had my first experience with a VIP TFR last weekend. Bush was in town and
> I had gotten an email from AOPA notifying me of the TFR in my area. I
> thought that was awesome that I got advance notice through email.
>
> Anyway, I do my normal flight planning and sure enough, the TFR is active
> over the top of my non-towered airfield.
>
> I go out to the airfield, and for some strange reason, I kind of expected
> the FBO to have posted something, somewhere, that there was an active TFR
> over the top of this airfield, but nope, nothing. I'm not even sure anyone
> at the FBO knew it was there.
>
> I was just slightly suprised. So for all the pilots out there who don't
> religously check the NOTAMS immediately before takeoff, you can all too
> easily be bitten by a TFR.
>
> Had my airfield been 2nm closer to the event, I would have been within the
> restricted airspace and could have facen the worst case reprocutions if I
> busted the airspace.
>
> Luckily, I've learned to check NOTAMS prior to every flight, and following
> the procedures, the TFR didn't delay me at all in getting on my way.
>
>
>

[kontiki]

I always get a Wx briefing before every flight, and check NOTAMS along
the route and destination for all XC trips. I teach my students that way also.

Not doing this shows a lack of piloting skilss, sorry but thats the truth.


Robert M. Gary wrote:

> Can anyone on this list actually claim to check for TFRs for every
> local flight in the pattern? Who would have known the VP was going to
> be in Sac? He came stealth.
>
> -Robert
>

[Mortimer Schnerd, RN]

Robert M. Gary wrote:
> Can anyone on this list actually claim to check for TFRs for every
> local flight in the pattern? Who would have known the VP was going to
> be in Sac? He came stealth.


I can't. I'm not likely to call for pattern work. I talk to the FBO manager
though; it seems like he would know. I'm also pretty good about keeping up with
local events in the newspaper. If the VP is coming, I generally know it in
advance.

Now, on cross country flights, I always call. I need weather and I need to
file.

Will this practice eventually bite me on the ass? I suppose it could but I'll
be pretty surprised.



--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN

[Mortimer Schnerd, RN]

kontiki wrote:
> Not doing this shows a lack of piloting skilss, sorry but thats the truth.


It also shows a lack of spelling or typing skills. Sorry, but that's the truth.




--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN

[Javier]

Bob Fry wrote:
>>>>>> "JD" == John Doe > writes:
>
> JD> I had my first experience with a VIP TFR last weekend. Bush
> JD> was in town and I had gotten an email from AOPA notifying me
> JD> of the TFR in my area.
>
> Bush was in Sacto a few weeks ago and I too got the AOPA notification
> by email. Because of that, and checking the extent of that TFR, I
> decided not to risk it and simply didn't fly that weekend.
>
> But for the TFR I violated, I didn't get a notice from AOPA. Why, I'm
> not sure. And the local newspaper had nothing about Cheney's visit
> until afterwards so I didn't know he was in town.
>
> JD> Luckily, I've learned to check NOTAMS prior to every flight,
> JD> and following the procedures, the TFR didn't delay me at all
> JD> in getting on my way.
>
> I rarely check NOTAMS or get a briefing for local VFR flights, and
> quite honestly I doubt I'll change my habits. The FAA should
> recognize that using NOTAMs alone are not enough. Maybe they should
> take email addresses and locations from pilots (kinda like AOPA) and
> send notices when a TFR is going to pop up in a given area.
>
> Maybe they could reserve a frequency just to broadcast important area
> NOTAMs. Pilots would get in the habit of checking it before takeoff
> and during flight. Maybe area NOTAMs could be added on to AWOS
> broadcasts. Something?

Why do you say that using NOTAMs alone aren't enough?

How would the FAA know where I am going to be flying so they can notify
me by email of any applicable NOTAMs?

You say that pilots would get in the habit of checking spoken NOTAMs
before each flight... how is that different from checking them online or
by a call to flight service if going online isn't feasible?

-jav

[Javier]

Robert M. Gary wrote:
> Can anyone on this list actually claim to check for TFRs for every
> local flight in the pattern? Who would have known the VP was going to
> be in Sac? He came stealth.

I get a DUATS briefing before every flight, pattern work or otherwise.

If it's a spur of the moment thing on the way home from work, for
example, and going online isn't feasible, then I call FSS.

-jav

[john smith]

> What is it with you guys busting TFR's ?? Don;t you ever get weather
> briefings?? I can't figure it out. I have my students get a Wx
> briefing before every flight, even if local that way we are informed.

The system has its flaws.
I can call for a briefing before I leave for the airport.
Problem is, the airfield is a 45 minute drive.
Add 30 minutes to get the airplane out of the hangar and preflighted.
Another 15 minutes before I get airborne.
My information is now 1.5 hours old.
I do not have a phone at the airfield, and the aircraft is an antique
with no electrical system or radios.
I have no way of knowing if anything has changed from my original
briefing until I land at my destination.

[Peter R.]

"Robert M. Gary" > wrote:

> Can anyone on this list actually claim to check for TFRs for every
> local flight in the pattern?

Yes.

I call for a briefing before *every* flight I take, whether it be a local
or x/c flight, specifically due to the concern of busting a TFR.

I am aware that there still is a risk that a previously unknown TFR might
even slip past the FSS briefers, but at least there will be a record of my
attempt at obtaining all information.

--
Peter

[Peter R.]

Peter Duniho > wrote:

> It's a basic part of the preflight actions. I also spend a good 15-20
> minutes walking around my airplane before every flight, and there's a host
> of other time-consuming things (fueling, driving to and from the airport,
> sometimes a visit to the pilot shop, etc) surrounding my flying. An extra
> 10 minutes (though, usually it's only 5) to get a briefing is a no-brainer.

I agree and I also spend a lot of time preparing for a flight.

Yesterday I took a GA-unfamiliar co-worker for a scenic flight over Niagara
Falls. After calling for a briefing, planning the fuel consumption, and
pre-flighting the aircraft, I gave him the "all-set" to climb aboard. He
turned to me and said, "Boy, you can't just gas-and-go with these things,
huh?"

--
Peter

[ktbr]

john smith wrote:
> I have no way of knowing if anything has changed from my original
> briefing until I land at my destination.

Well certainly, if a TFR were suddenly thrown up between the time
you got your briefing and the time you took off there would be a
problem. In fact though, the chances of that happening are probably
pretty slim and to my knowledge has not been a factor in any cases
of busted TFRs. Having gotten your briefing (which is documented)
your ass would be at least covered for an accidental bust in the
unlikely event they trew up a TFR over your area between the time
you got your briefing and the time you took off. If you are flying
XC a radio is an essential item, really -- IMHO.

[John Theune]

Robert M. Gary wrote:
> Can anyone on this list actually claim to check for TFRs for every
> local flight in the pattern? Who would have known the VP was going to
> be in Sac? He came stealth.
>
> -Robert
>
That would be me. Granted I live inside the largest (T)fr area in the
country, but for the most part it does not change. I've just developed
the habit of asking before each flight. Sure it takes a couple of extra
moments but it's worth it.
John

[ktbr]

Mortimer Schnerd, RN wrote:
> kontiki wrote:
>
>>Not doing this shows a lack of piloting skilss, sorry but thats the truth.
>
>
>
> It also shows a lack of spelling or typing skills. Sorry, but that's the truth.

Wow, thanks for pointing that out, as you state, my typing skills are
*essential* to the point of the post.

[Larry Dighera]

On 24 May 2006 19:57:34 -0700, "Robert M. Gary" >
wrote in om>::

>Can anyone on this list actually claim to check for TFRs for every
>local flight in the pattern?

It would seem that those airmen who fail to check for TFRs before
every flight are in violation of:


http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=ecfr&sid=1de74710b574072d8d35f1c6c7a7f4e8&rgn=div5&view=text&node=14:2.0.1.3.10&idno=14
§ 91.103 Preflight action.
Each pilot in command shall, before beginning a flight, become
familiar with all available information concerning that flight.
This information must include— ...

[Jules]

bob wrote:
Should I bother filing the
> NASA ASRS form?

Can't hurt can it?

[Gary Drescher]

"Robert M. Gary" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> Can anyone on this list actually claim to check for TFRs for every
> local flight in the pattern?

Yes. The only flight I've ever piloted without getting a briefing first was
my intro flight. Starting with the second lesson, my CFI had me get a
briefing before every flight, and I've done so ever since. If the weather is
obviously clear and calm, I may not bother to write down the briefing info,
but I'll still get the briefing. At a minimum, I either take a minute to
consult DUATS before leaving home or at the FBO, or else I talk to FSS for a
minute while I'm walking across the ramp to the plane. Skipping the briefing
would be like skipping a required part of the preflight inspection.

--Gary

[Gary Drescher]

"Dave Stadt" > wrote in message
. com...
>
> "bob" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
>> So what can I expect? I've already figured out that the Secret Service
>> isn't going to arrest me. My biggest concern is what it will do to my
>> insurance costs when I renew next year. Should I bother filing the
>> NASA ASRS form? Since I'm a PP-ASEL and flying is a hobby, I don't
>> otherwise care a lot if my license is suspended for a time or I end up
>> with a record.
>
> Definitely fill out a NASA report.

I agree. In addition to the protection from any enforcement action, it
provides useful safety information to NASA, which is the primary reason for
having the form.

> The couple of people I know that have busted TFRs (President not VP) have
> had nothing done other than a couple of questions.

My experience, too (though not with TFRs) is that ATC is reluctant to take
formal action with regard to inadvertent infringements that caused no harm.

> I don't see how insurance companies could care, you didn't cost them
> anything.

Insurance companies ask about enforcement actions; they wouldn't ask if they
didn't care. Presumably the reason they care is that an enforcement action
shows that a pilot was unable or unwilling to follow a reasonable safety
rule--which, in some future situation, could indeed cost the insurance
company money.

--Gary

[BTIZ]

I've had AOPA miss a few TFR notifications. Many times the VIP schedule
changes too quickly for AOPA reaction and sometimes TFR NOTAMS arrive after
the VIP.

BT

"Bob Fry" > wrote in message
...
>>>>>> "JD" == John Doe > writes:
>
> JD> I had my first experience with a VIP TFR last weekend. Bush
> JD> was in town and I had gotten an email from AOPA notifying me
> JD> of the TFR in my area.
>
> Bush was in Sacto a few weeks ago and I too got the AOPA notification
> by email. Because of that, and checking the extent of that TFR, I
> decided not to risk it and simply didn't fly that weekend.
>
> But for the TFR I violated, I didn't get a notice from AOPA. Why, I'm
> not sure. And the local newspaper had nothing about Cheney's visit
> until afterwards so I didn't know he was in town.
>
> JD> Luckily, I've learned to check NOTAMS prior to every flight,
> JD> and following the procedures, the TFR didn't delay me at all
> JD> in getting on my way.
>
> I rarely check NOTAMS or get a briefing for local VFR flights, and
> quite honestly I doubt I'll change my habits. The FAA should
> recognize that using NOTAMs alone are not enough. Maybe they should
> take email addresses and locations from pilots (kinda like AOPA) and
> send notices when a TFR is going to pop up in a given area.
>
> Maybe they could reserve a frequency just to broadcast important area
> NOTAMs. Pilots would get in the habit of checking it before takeoff
> and during flight. Maybe area NOTAMs could be added on to AWOS
> broadcasts. Something?
>

[bob]

Still haven't heard anything from the FSDO, but not much time has
passed. I'll post with whatever they eventually flog me with, but in
the meantime here's some comments on the comments:

Q. Why would NOTAMs on another frequency or AWOS be easier to check
than the current methods?
A. Current methods require one to check a web page or make a phone
call, an extra effort rather different from simply checking another
frequency. It's not so much the time involved, but the relatively
different task.

Q. Are there pilots that really check before EVERY flight?
A. Apparently so. And maybe I will join the ranks. But my computer
isn't on all the time and being Windoze takes a while to boot. Dialing
1-800-WX-BRIEF isn't difficult, maybe they could have a recording just
for major NOTAMs in the area (they already connect you to your regional
FSS station based on your calling phone number).

Q. Don't you check weather before every flight?
A. X-country, yes, local, no. It's a California thing I guess...ya
gotta live here a summer to understand.

Q. How would an email notification work, they don't know what airport
you're at?
A. Similar to AOPA's system, the FAA would setup a web page where
pilots voluntarily participating would submit their email address and
location (either state, zip code, or airport ID) and they would receive
emails for TFR and NOTAMs. This would help for the local flights where
many pilots don't get a briefing. The point being, no single method
will work, but an email notification system would be very cheap and
relatively effective for those participating. We might as well
recognize that for local VFR flights there are just a lot of pilots
that don't get briefings, so why not reduce the number of TFR
violations with a simple email system?

BTW, there's an interesting report about TFR violations at
http://www.volpe.dot.gov/opsad/docs/tfranalysis.pdf. Here's a
statistic that caught my eye: "...2900 violations in the two years
between June 2002 and June 2004 alone."

Obviously the current system isn't working well. Why not be practical
and implement additional notification methods to reduce the violation
rate?

[[email protected]]

In rec.aviation.misc Jon A > wrote:
> Your punishment is to go dove hunting with Cheney next year. That'll
> teach ya!

I'd rather go dove hunting with Cheney than driving with Ted Kennedy!

Best regards,

Jer/ "Flight instruction and mountain flying are my vocations!"
--
Jer/ (Slash) Eberhard, Mountain Flying Aviation, LTD, Ft Collins, CO
CELL 970 231-6325 EMAIL jer<at>frii.com http://users.frii.com/jer/
C-206 N9513G, CFII Airplane&Glider FAA-DEN Aviation Safety Counselor
CAP-CO Mission&Aircraft CheckPilot BM218 HAM N0FZD 240 Young Eagles!

[Peter R.]

bob > wrote:

> Obviously the current system isn't working well.

Hypothetically querying, how is someone who admits to not checking TFRs
capable of accurately commenting on the effectiveness of the system?

--
Peter

[Matt Barrow]

"Peter R." > wrote in message
...
> bob > wrote:
>
>> Obviously the current system isn't working well.
>
> Hypothetically querying, how is someone who admits to not checking TFRs
> capable of accurately commenting on the effectiveness of the system?
>

Divine revelation.

[karl gruber]

Yes. Plus a briefing.

I also have the Garmin 396 ON! It gives real time TFRs and is convenient and
accurate.

Karl
ATP,CFI, ETC


"Robert M. Gary" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> Can anyone on this list actually claim to check for TFRs for every
> local flight in the pattern? Who would have known the VP was going to
> be in Sac? He came stealth.
>
> -Robert
>

[Mortimer Schnerd, RN]

ktbr wrote:
>> It also shows a lack of spelling or typing skills. Sorry, but that's the
>> truth.
>
> Wow, thanks for pointing that out, as you state, my typing skills are
> *essential* to the point of the post.


Always happy to be of service.



--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN

[Mortimer Schnerd, RN]

Larry Dighera wrote:
>> It would seem that those airmen who fail to check for TFRs before
> every flight are in violation of:
>
>
> http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=ecfr&sid=1de74710b574072d8d35f1c6c7a7f4e8&rgn=div5&view=text&node=14:2.0.1.3.10&idno=14
> § 91.103 Preflight action.
> Each pilot in command shall, before beginning a flight, become
> familiar with all available information concerning that flight.
> This information must include— ...


Oh, ****. Will filling out a NASA report save me?



--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN

[Peter Duniho]

"bob" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Still haven't heard anything from the FSDO, but not much time has
> passed. I'll post with whatever they eventually flog me with, but in
> the meantime here's some comments on the comments:
>
> Q. Why would NOTAMs on another frequency or AWOS be easier to check
> than the current methods?
> A. Current methods require one to check a web page or make a phone
> call, an extra effort rather different from simply checking another
> frequency. It's not so much the time involved, but the relatively
> different task.

You should maybe check NOTAMs at least once. Then you'd see just how many
there are, and how impractical it would be to include them on an existing
AWOS transmission or similar. I suppose you could set up a new system like
HIWAS, etc. with a dedicated NOTAM frequency, but it'd still be relatively
impractical (you'd have to listen to several minutes of NOTAMs just to be
sure you heard them all) and you'd run into the problem of taking up new
radio frequencies for something that really doesn't have to be an in-flight
information thing.

As far as the current methods requiring extra effort, well dang...there's a
lot of extra effort involved in flying. Just how little effort do you want
to put in? Compared to most of the other stuff involved in flying creating
"extra effort", checking NOTAMs is pretty minimal.

> Q. Are there pilots that really check before EVERY flight?
> A. Apparently so. And maybe I will join the ranks. But my computer
> isn't on all the time and being Windoze takes a while to boot.

The fact that my computer isn't on all the time is why it takes at least
five minutes. Big deal. Turn on your computer, and then go put your flight
bag next to the door, or brush your teeth, or whatever, while it's booting.

> Dialing
> 1-800-WX-BRIEF isn't difficult, maybe they could have a recording just
> for major NOTAMs in the area (they already connect you to your regional
> FSS station based on your calling phone number).

Sure, that would not be a bad idea at all. I haven't phoned for a briefing
in a long time (no Class B ADIZ around Sea-Tac, yet) so I don't know what
they offer, but a menu option to drop you into a NOTAM menu structure would
be useful. No need to limit it to TFRs...just make TFRs a category, and
include other stuff (like obstacles to navigation, chart NOTAMs, FDC, etc.)
on other menus.

> Q. Don't you check weather before every flight?
> A. X-country, yes, local, no. It's a California thing I guess...ya
> gotta live here a summer to understand.

You just don't get it. Even here in Seattle, we often have weather that
makes it obvious that I don't need to check the *weather*. That's not the
point. A preflight briefing is more than weather. It's not "a California
thing". It's a lazy pilot thing.

> Q. How would an email notification work, they don't know what airport
> you're at?
> A. Similar to AOPA's system, the FAA would setup a web page where
> pilots voluntarily participating would submit their email address and
> location (either state, zip code, or airport ID) and they would receive
> emails for TFR and NOTAMs.

I would agree that an email notification system would be handy. It should
be simple enough to set up, and would serve a useful purpose. However...

> This would help for the local flights where
> many pilots don't get a briefing.

An email system does not get you out of getting a briefing. It just
provides a relatively convenient way to help you know about important
information. Email is fundamentally unreliable, and there's no way to prove
that you read the email that was sent to you, nor to ensure that you have
actually received all applicable NOTAM information.

Even if you have an email notification system, you would still need to get a
proper briefing before your flight.

> [...] We might as well
> recognize that for local VFR flights there are just a lot of pilots
> that don't get briefings, so why not reduce the number of TFR
> violations with a simple email system?

We might? What is your basis for claiming that "there are just a lot of
pilots that don't get briefings"? Near as I can tell, pilots are MUCH more
likely to be in the category of "always get a briefing" than "never get a
briefing".

> BTW, there's an interesting report about TFR violations at
> http://www.volpe.dot.gov/opsad/docs/tfranalysis.pdf. Here's a
> statistic that caught my eye: "...2900 violations in the two years
> between June 2002 and June 2004 alone."

Compared to the number of flights made during those two years, 2900
violations is a very small number.

> Obviously the current system isn't working well. Why not be practical
> and implement additional notification methods to reduce the violation
> rate?

I have to agree with Peter R.'s reply: I see no proof here that "the current
system isn't working well". You're not using the current system. How does
your experience relate at all to how well it works?

Pete

[ET]

The 396 ROCKS! (sorry, I cant think of a better possitive explitive)

To see "real time" where the TFR's, real time winds aloft, real time
cloud cover, real time lighting strikes, real time nexrad AND realtime
convective sigmets is a pleasure, especially on a long cross country.

While it doesnt give realtime MOA activity, it does have a quick and
simple meathod of checking the altitudes and normal hours of MOAs and
Restricted areas (just "mouse over" the picture and a pop up tells
you...)

Yes it's expensive, yes the monthly service is expensive ($50/month),
but I would not want to do long VFR cross countries without it!

--
-- ET >:-) (student PPL pilot)

"A common mistake people make when trying to design something
completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete
fools."---- Douglas Adams


"karl gruber" > wrote in
:

> Yes. Plus a briefing.
>
> I also have the Garmin 396 ON! It gives real time TFRs and is
> convenient and accurate.
>
> Karl
> ATP,CFI, ETC
>
>
> "Robert M. Gary" > wrote in message
> ups.com...
>> Can anyone on this list actually claim to check for TFRs for every
>> local flight in the pattern? Who would have known the VP was going to
>> be in Sac? He came stealth.
>>
>> -Robert
>>
>
>

[Newps]

Robert M. Gary wrote:

> Can anyone on this list actually claim to check for TFRs for every
> local flight in the pattern? Who would have known the VP was going to
> be in Sac? He came stealth.

I'm like you, rarely check notams. When prez/vice prez are anywhere in
the state it's big news and you'll hear about it.

[A Guy Called Tyketto]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

In rec.aviation.piloting Newps > wrote:
>
>
> Robert M. Gary wrote:
>
>> Can anyone on this list actually claim to check for TFRs for every
>> local flight in the pattern? Who would have known the VP was going to
>> be in Sac? He came stealth.
>
> I'm like you, rarely check notams. When prez/vice prez are anywhere in
> the state it's big news and you'll hear about it.

They really didn't say much about it on the news, if at all. In
fact, it was further south, towards Modesto and Stockton more than
Sacramento, IIRC. As far as the newspaper, they go to press that night,
so the news you heard the night before is printed in the morning the
following day. The Sac. Bee only does one printing per day. So it would
have been really easy to not hear about the VP's visit until the day
after.

Either way, NOTAMs definitely should have been looked at or
notifications sent out, in one way or another.

BL.
- --
Brad Littlejohn | Email:
Unix Systems Administrator, |
Web + NewsMaster, BOFH.. Smeghead! :) | http://www.wizard.com/~tyketto
PGP: 1024D/E319F0BF 6980 AAD6 7329 E9E6 D569 F620 C819 199A E319 F0BF

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[Ross Richardson]

Neat site. I am going to bookmark that one.

Ross
KSWI

Jerry wrote:

> I usually check this FAA web page to see if there is a local TFR.
>
> http://tfr.faa.gov/tfr_map_ims/html/index.html
>
> Jerry in NC
>
>
snip

[Robert M. Gary]

> I'm like you, rarely check notams. When prez/vice prez are anywhere in
> the state it's big news and you'll hear about it.

You would think that would be the case, in this case it was not. The
prez was here about 3 weeks ago and it was all over the paper. There
was nothing that I saw concernnig the VP visit. In fact, I mentioned to
several of the pilots in the area that there was a TFR the other day
and not a single one knew about the TFR or the visit. I believe this
was a stealth visit.

-robert

[Robert M. Gary]

Bob,
Who are you dealing with at the FSDO? Is it Henson?

-Robert

[Ross Richardson]

We just had a briefing from one of the Lockheed Martin AFSS managers and
that is coming. You will be able to log onto a website and provide your
personal information if you wish. Call for a weather briefing and the
briefer will have your name, ratings, etc. It will be funny calling the
briefer and he says "Hello, Ross, what can I do for you today?"

Ross
SKWI

bob wrote:


>
> Q. How would an email notification work, they don't know what airport
> you're at?
> A. Similar to AOPA's system, the FAA would setup a web page where
> pilots voluntarily participating would submit their email address and
> location (either state, zip code, or airport ID) and they would receive
> emails for TFR and NOTAMs. This would help for the local flights where
> many pilots don't get a briefing. The point being, no single method
> will work, but an email notification system would be very cheap and
> relatively effective for those participating. We might as well
> recognize that for local VFR flights there are just a lot of pilots
> that don't get briefings, so why not reduce the number of TFR
> violations with a simple email system?
>
>

[Ross Richardson]

That really NEAT!

Mortimer Schnerd, RN wrote:

> Ross Richardson wrote:
>
>>>I usually check this FAA web page to see if there is a local TFR.
>>>
>>>http://tfr.faa.gov/tfr_map_ims/html/index.html
>>
>>
>>Neat site. I am going to bookmark that one.
>
>
>
> I ended up sending it to my desktop. I then created this icon to use with it.
> The attachment may or may not show up, seeing as how this is a non-binary group.
> But what the hell... it's only 2k. A lot of people requote more than that just
> because they're too lazy to trim.
>
>
>
>

[B A R R Y]

Jon A wrote:
> I've seen the fighters fly by my home drone shaking their fists at a
> little Cessna when the village idiot was in town. Kinda neat, but not
> for the student and his instructor.

There's a West Point TFR Saturday that includes Rhinebeck.

I have this funny image in my mind of an F16 pilot waving at a Fokker
Triplane or Spad, complete with leather helmeted and white scarved
pilot. Now that would be a picture.

[B A R R Y]

Roy Smith wrote:
>
> There are lots of problems with the notam system. Still, it is the
> official way the FAA notifies pilots of things like TFRs. If you're going
> to stick your head in the sand and say you're not going to check for
> notams, you deserve what you get when you bust a TFR.

It's not like it's difficult to check...

[Peter R.]

Newps > wrote:

> I'm like you, rarely check notams. When prez/vice prez are anywhere in
> the state it's big news and you'll hear about it.

Are there ever TFRs in Montana?

--
Peter

[Larry Dighera]

On Thu, 25 May 2006 16:11:54 GMT, ET > wrote in
>::

>While it [Garmin 396] doesnt give realtime MOA activity,

Hell, even the FSS is often unable to provide accurate information
regarding actual hot MOAs.

[Barney Rubble]

OK so a question for the drivers with XM or other satellite WX. Do these
technologies graphically display TFR's on the display?

- Barney
"bob" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Still haven't heard anything from the FSDO, but not much time has
> passed. I'll post with whatever they eventually flog me with, but in
> the meantime here's some comments on the comments:
>
> Q. Why would NOTAMs on another frequency or AWOS be easier to check
> than the current methods?
> A. Current methods require one to check a web page or make a phone
> call, an extra effort rather different from simply checking another
> frequency. It's not so much the time involved, but the relatively
> different task.
>
> Q. Are there pilots that really check before EVERY flight?
> A. Apparently so. And maybe I will join the ranks. But my computer
> isn't on all the time and being Windoze takes a while to boot. Dialing
> 1-800-WX-BRIEF isn't difficult, maybe they could have a recording just
> for major NOTAMs in the area (they already connect you to your regional
> FSS station based on your calling phone number).
>
> Q. Don't you check weather before every flight?
> A. X-country, yes, local, no. It's a California thing I guess...ya
> gotta live here a summer to understand.
>
> Q. How would an email notification work, they don't know what airport
> you're at?
> A. Similar to AOPA's system, the FAA would setup a web page where
> pilots voluntarily participating would submit their email address and
> location (either state, zip code, or airport ID) and they would receive
> emails for TFR and NOTAMs. This would help for the local flights where
> many pilots don't get a briefing. The point being, no single method
> will work, but an email notification system would be very cheap and
> relatively effective for those participating. We might as well
> recognize that for local VFR flights there are just a lot of pilots
> that don't get briefings, so why not reduce the number of TFR
> violations with a simple email system?
>
> BTW, there's an interesting report about TFR violations at
> http://www.volpe.dot.gov/opsad/docs/tfranalysis.pdf. Here's a
> statistic that caught my eye: "...2900 violations in the two years
> between June 2002 and June 2004 alone."
>
> Obviously the current system isn't working well. Why not be practical
> and implement additional notification methods to reduce the violation
> rate?
>

[Larry Dighera]

On Thu, 25 May 2006 13:03:35 -0400, "Peter R." >
wrote in >::

>Are there ever TFRs in Montana?

The VP has a ranch there.

[Newps]

A Guy Called Tyketto wrote:

>>
>>
>>>Can anyone on this list actually claim to check for TFRs for every
>>>local flight in the pattern? Who would have known the VP was going to
>>>be in Sac? He came stealth.
>>
>>I'm like you, rarely check notams. When prez/vice prez are anywhere in
>>the state it's big news and you'll hear about it.
>
>
> They really didn't say much about it on the news, if at all.


That's California, not Montana.

[Peter R.]

Barney Rubble > wrote:

> OK so a question for the drivers with XM or other satellite WX. Do these
> technologies graphically display TFR's on the display?

I have WSI downlinked weather and the first year with the system I
subscribed to the TFR package. Yes, the TFR was graphically displayed.

Given the fact that I fly more IFR than VFR, I decided the TFR add-on was
not worth the additional cost to me and didn't renew it the second year.
Someone flying a lot of VFR would certainly have a different opinion.

--
Peter

[Newps]

Peter R. wrote:

> Newps > wrote:
>
>
>>I'm like you, rarely check notams. When prez/vice prez are anywhere in
>>the state it's big news and you'll hear about it.
>
>
> Are there ever TFRs in Montana?

Sure. We are in a prime forest fire area. Fire TFR's are small,
usually a 5 mile radius around the fire and a few thousand feet agl.
Those TFR's are easy to avoid, just don't fly very low over smoke and
you won't have to worry about it. Cheney comes to Billings every August
from Jackson on AF2, he then hops on the Blackhawk or Chinook and flies
to Fort Smith for some trout fishing on the world famous Bighorn River.
There's a TFR here at the airport while he's actually here. They then
fly VFR in the helicopters to the river, 40 miles SE of BIL at about
1500 agl. There's a small TFR over the cabins they rent, 5 miles and a
few thousand feet I think. When the prez comes to Montana therre's only
about five places they will go and you'll hgere about it a week in
advance on the local news and in the paper. When Cheney is at his home
in JAC there will be F16's watching the TFR there. You'll occasionally
hear the F16 pilots over JAC here in the tower at BIL as they try to
contact the wayward spamcan pilot on 121.5 and shoo him away from the TFR.

[Newps]

Larry Dighera wrote:

> On Thu, 25 May 2006 13:03:35 -0400, "Peter R." >
> wrote in >::
>
>
>>Are there ever TFRs in Montana?
>
>
> The VP has a ranch there.

Close, he's in Jackson, WY.

[Jim Logajan]

Larry Dighera > wrote:
> On Thu, 25 May 2006 13:03:35 -0400, "Peter R." >
> wrote in >::
>
>>Are there ever TFRs in Montana?
>
> The VP has a ranch there.

I believe it is in Wyoming - unless he owns a second one?

[Dale Falk]

In article >,
Newps > wrote:


> I'm like you, rarely check notams. When prez/vice prez are anywhere in
> the state it's big news and you'll hear about it.

There are reasons other than a political figure being in the area that
may cause a TFR to be up.

[ET]

"Barney Rubble" > wrote in news:4475e76b$0$9421
:

> OK so a question for the drivers with XM or other satellite WX. Do these
> technologies graphically display TFR's on the display?
>
> - Barney


YES!!! (at least with the XM package).

The 396 shows the TFR's in red just like on this page:

And you can see the representation of your current position in relationship
to it.... (or restricted, or MOA, etc...). It also warns you when your
current corse is going to cause you to enter a TFR; Restricted, MOA, etc...

moving the "pointer" to the graphic of the area brings a "pop-up" of the
description of the TFR

--
-- ET >:-)

"A common mistake people make when trying to design something
completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete
fools."---- Douglas Adams

[Gary Drescher]

"Ben Hallert" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Yep, every flight. It might be a difference in culture between younger
> pilots like myself and people who have been flying longer. I did all
> of my flight training after 9/11, and I trained in the LA basin, which
> is somewhat busy. As a result, there was a bigger emphasis on checking
> this stuff than my pilot friends who learned earlier.

Perhaps. But I started flying in 2000, and every instructor I worked with
already emphasized that a briefing for each flight was required in order to
be safe and legal.

--Gary

[ktbr]

bob wrote:
> 1-800-WX-BRIEF isn't difficult, maybe they could have a recording just
> for major NOTAMs in the area (they already connect you to your regional
> FSS station based on your calling phone number).
>
> Q. Don't you check weather before every flight?
> A. X-country, yes, local, no. It's a California thing I guess...ya
> gotta live here a summer to understand.

Remeber YOU control the briefing... you can request whatever info you
want.... standard, update, abreviated, outlook or just plain ask about
pertinent NOTAMS or TFRs.

[Ron Garret]

In article . com>,
"bob" > wrote:

> Q. Are there pilots that really check before EVERY flight?

Are there pilots who really do a preflight and engine runup before EVERY
flight?

rg

[Martin Hotze]

On Thu, 25 May 2006 11:32:45 -0600, Newps wrote:

>Cheney comes to Billings every August
>from Jackson on AF2, he then hops on the Blackhawk or Chinook and flies
>to Fort Smith for some trout fishing on the world famous Bighorn River.

on taxpayers expenses? or has he to pay for the flight and all the stuff
for himself?

#m
--
Lost the phone number of a good friend? Don't know whom the kids called?
Don't worry any longer! Call 1-800-2NSA ... we are here to help you!

[Martin Hotze]

On Thu, 25 May 2006 10:41:08 -0800, Dale Falk wrote:

>There are reasons other than a political figure being in the area that
>may cause a TFR to be up.

yeah. like Mickey Mouse on a parade in Disneyland. *lol*

#m
--
Lost the phone number of a good friend? Don't know whom the kids called?
Don't worry any longer! Call 1-800-2NSA ... we are here to help you!

[Peter Duniho]

"Martin Hotze" > wrote in message
...
> On Thu, 25 May 2006 11:32:45 -0600, Newps wrote:
>
>>Cheney comes to Billings every August
>>from Jackson on AF2, he then hops on the Blackhawk or Chinook and flies
>>to Fort Smith for some trout fishing on the world famous Bighorn River.
>
> on taxpayers expenses? or has he to pay for the flight and all the stuff
> for himself?

If he is not on "official business", he has to pay for it himself. However,
as with most things political (and not unique to the US), there's always a
loophole. If he combines the trip with something he claims to be "official
business", then the government pays.

Obviously, when he travels, he does his best to come up with some excuse to
be where he's going on "official business". For example, during a recent
fund-raising trip here in the Seattle area, he squeezed in a brief meeting
with some other officials, causing the taxpayers to pay a couple hundred
grand for him to raise another half million or so (I forget the exact
numbers, but those are in the ballpark). He basically doubled his profits
by spending a few hours downtown.

Cheney, of course, is not alone in this habit. Pretty much any politician
to whom the loophole is available takes advantage of it.

The thing I love most about your posts is that you spend so much time being
critical of the US and its government, as if your own government were
perfect or even free of the very problems you love to focus on. Oh, and of
course, the complete lack of aviation-related content in any of your posts.
That's great too.

The irony is overpowering at times. Are things really so hopeless in your
own country that you've given up trying to express yourself with respect to
there?

Pete

[Martin Hotze]

On Thu, 25 May 2006 12:57:14 -0700, Peter Duniho wrote:

>Are things really so hopeless in your
>own country

au contraire.

#m
--
Lost the phone number of a good friend? Don't know whom the kids called?
Don't worry any longer! Call 1-800-2NSA ... we are here to help you!

[Doug]

No one around to update the AWOS. That happens only once in a great
while. The weather part of the AWOS is talked automatically by machine,
so no one HAS to be there to update it. The "other" part of AWOS is
usually updated by someone like the airport manager, who doesn't want
to mess with it except every few months.

[[email protected]]

>Can anyone on this list actually claim to check for TFRs for every
>local flight in the pattern? Who would have known the VP was going to
>be in Sac? He came stealth.
>
I call FSS on my cell phone on the way to the airport every single time.

Paul

[Peter Duniho]

"Morgans" > wrote in message
...
> I've often wondered why they do not use AWOS. It would take all of 5 or
> 10 seconds to announce a NOTAM, or at least tell of one's existence.

It would take well over 10 seconds to describe just one NOTAM of any
complexity, never mind all of the NOTAMs that might be applicable to a
flight within radio range of the AWOS. And noting a NOTAM's existence
without describing it isn't useful...there are always NOTAMs.

> Yes, checking before departure is a "good thing" but there are always
> NOTAM's that pop up while you are in the air.

That possibility does always exist, yes. But it's a relatively infrequent
occurrence. Nearly all of the time, a NOTAM that might become effective
during the flight is published prior to the commencement of the flight, even
if only by hours.

But even if NOTAMs appearing after one departs but becoming effective prior
to one landing was anything other than the very remote possibility it is
now, there's no practical way to disseminate all applicable NOTAMs via
frequencies already in use, such as AWOS, ATIS, automated UNICOMs, or ATC
frequencies.

Pete

[Jon A]

On Thu, 25 May 2006 14:17:38 -0000, wrote:

>In rec.aviation.misc Jon A > wrote:
>> Your punishment is to go dove hunting with Cheney next year. That'll
>> teach ya!
>
>I'd rather go dove hunting with Cheney than driving with Ted Kennedy!

That's after the second busted TFR.

[Jay Honeck]

> It's a basic part of the preflight actions. I also spend a good 15-20
> minutes walking around my airplane before every flight

I do a thorough pre-flight inspection before every flight. Every control
surface is checked for continuity, all four gas tanks are visually
inspected, oil is checked, wheel pants are given a tug, prop is examined,
stall indicator movement verified, every screw, bolt and connector is
visually inspected...

I've still got 12 to 17 minutes left. What're you doing that I'm not?
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Dale Falk]

In article >,
wrote:

> >Can anyone on this list actually claim to check for TFRs for every
> >local flight in the pattern? Who would have known the VP was going to
> >be in Sac? He came stealth.
> >
> I call FSS on my cell phone on the way to the airport every single time.
>

hehe I did that in Florida with my Alaska cell phone. The briefer in
the AFSS in Kenai, Alaska was only slightly more confused than I was
when I asked for a brief for a flight in Florida. <G>

[Bob Noel]

In article <hQsdg.3183$No1.816@attbi_s71>,
"Jay Honeck" > wrote:

> > It's a basic part of the preflight actions. I also spend a good 15-20
> > minutes walking around my airplane before every flight
>
> I do a thorough pre-flight inspection before every flight. Every control
> surface is checked for continuity, all four gas tanks are visually
> inspected, oil is checked, wheel pants are given a tug, prop is examined,
> stall indicator movement verified, every screw, bolt and connector is
> visually inspected...
>
> I've still got 12 to 17 minutes left. What're you doing that I'm not?

Check nav lights and rotating beacon

Check electric fuel pump

Check flap operation

Sample fuel from each tank and from the gascalator

Touch everything inspected (not just look at it but touch it - how
can you tell a nut is loose just by looking?).

Alternator belt is checked for freeplay

Inspect tires and brakes (including exposed lines)

--
Bob Noel
Looking for a sig the
lawyers will hate

[Morgans]

"Peter Duniho" > wrote

> But even if NOTAMs appearing after one departs but becoming effective
> prior to one landing was anything other than the very remote possibility
> it is now, there's no practical way to disseminate all applicable NOTAMs
> via frequencies already in use, such as AWOS, ATIS, automated UNICOMs, or
> ATC frequencies.
>
I was thinking of something along the lines of a quick description, such as
" --- centered on ---" then, "tune to blah blah blah for further
information."

If you had already done your homework, then the quick description would tell
you already knew about it, then you could ignore the tuning somewhere else
part. If it was something new that you were not aware of, then you could
check it out.

Just another idea. It does seem like some people do their best to find out,
but due to delays, or time to get to the airport, or pop ups, they still get
caught.

Granted, it is a much higher percentage of busted notices, because of total
failure to attempt to get the information.
--
Jim in NC

[Peter Duniho]

"Morgans" > wrote in message
...
> I was thinking of something along the lines of a quick description, such
> as " --- centered on ---" then, "tune to blah blah blah for further
> information."

You seem to be underestimating the number of NOTAMs that are generally
active at any given time. We're not just talking TFRs. There are lots of
other kinds of NOTAMs that a pilot may need to know about, and if a
dissemenation system is going to be set up on the radio frequencies, they
all need to be included.

> If you had already done your homework, then the quick description would
> tell you already knew about it, then you could ignore the tuning somewhere
> else part. If it was something new that you were not aware of, then you
> could check it out.

If you had already done your homework, you wouldn't need to hear about the
TFR on the radio.

> Just another idea. It does seem like some people do their best to find
> out, but due to delays, or time to get to the airport, or pop ups, they
> still get caught.

There really just aren't that many NOTAMs that pop up at the last minute,
even TFRs. Most of the TFR violations are pilots who simply didn't bother
to get the available information.

> Granted, it is a much higher percentage of busted notices, because of
> total failure to attempt to get the information.

If you mean that most violations are due to failure to get the available
information, then yes...agreed.

Pete

[Peter Duniho]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:hQsdg.3183$No1.816@attbi_s71...
> [...]
> I've still got 12 to 17 minutes left. What're you doing that I'm not?

I guarantee you that in three minutes, you do NOT check "every screw, bolt
and connector".

You are fooling yourself if you think that three minutes is sufficient time
for a preflight inspection.

[Thomas Borchert]

Bob,

> Obviously the current system isn't working well.
>

So you didn't even check? And you do tha regularly? Jeeze, wtf do you
expect? This makes what happened entirely your fault, I'm afraid. And,
with all due respect, I really do hope the FSDO manages to teach you a
thorough lesson - because you're one of the idio^H^H^H^H, uhm, persons
hurting all of us pilots by being careless and lazy.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[Ron Garret]

In article >,
Bob Noel > wrote:

> Touch everything inspected (not just look at it but touch it - how
> can you tell a nut is loose just by looking?).

On my plane (an SR22) many of the nuts have a dab of paint on them where
they meet the screw. If they move the paint dab cracks. It's quite
visually apparent.

rg

[B A R R Y]

Dale Falk wrote:
>
> hehe I did that in Florida with my Alaska cell phone. The briefer in
> the AFSS in Kenai, Alaska was only slightly more confused than I was
> when I asked for a brief for a flight in Florida. <G>

Same here. <G>

Wait! but I'm in....

[Mike]

Thomas Borchert wrote:
> Bob,
>
>> Obviously the current system isn't working well.
>>
>
> So you didn't even check? And you do tha regularly? Jeeze, wtf do you
> expect? This makes what happened entirely your fault, I'm afraid. And,
> with all due respect, I really do hope the FSDO manages to teach you a
> thorough lesson - because you're one of the idio^H^H^H^H, uhm, persons
> hurting all of us pilots by being careless and lazy.
>

I got a treat the other day to witness a small plane being intercepted
by an F-16 from my living room window in South Jersey on Wednesday. I
knew I would hear about it on the news. Sure enough:
http://abclocal.go.com/wpvi/story?section=local&id=4203212.

What's funny is the guy keeps saying he didn't know the President was in
town. I think this is a case of not doing the pre-flight homework. I
knew about the TFR two days before it went into effect.

The video gets chopped off, watching it on the news last night she said
other pilots had a hard time believing that he didn't know the President
was in town. That may have been true, but only because he didn't do the
homework. There was another plane in the area that violated airspace,
which I don't have details on. Something you don't see everyday in my
area...

--
Mike

[Larry Dighera]

On Fri, 26 May 2006 01:27:41 GMT, "Jay Honeck"
> wrote in <hQsdg.3183$No1.816@attbi_s71>::

>I've still got 12 to 17 minutes left. What're you doing that I'm not?

Sampling/draining all five fuel sumps? Testing the stall warning
switch & ELT operation, inspecting the brake linings, looking for
hydraulic leaks, tire treads, pitot/static ports, prop condition,
spinner attachment, oleo-struts, and all the other items mentioned
here:
http://www.dauntless-soft.com/PRODUCTS/Freebies/HandlingNotes/aircraftinfo.asp?ID=29

[Jay Honeck]

> Check nav lights and rotating beacon

You check them on EVERY flight? I only check those before a night flight.
(And my rotating beacon was removed years ago, in lieu of strobes.)

> Check electric fuel pump

That's before take-off, on my checklist.

> Check flap operation

Yep, those are down and inspected during the pre-flight.

> Sample fuel from each tank and from the gascalator

Yep, that's part of it, too. (Guess I figured that was a "given"...)

> Touch everything inspected (not just look at it but touch it - how
> can you tell a nut is loose just by looking?).

Roger that.

> Alternator belt is checked for freeplay

I can't get at mine, sadly.

> Inspect tires and brakes (including exposed lines)

Mine are under the "fancy pants" -- so all I can see is the bottom of the
tires.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Newps]

Jay Honeck wrote:

>>It's a basic part of the preflight actions. I also spend a good 15-20
>>minutes walking around my airplane before every flight
>
>
> I do a thorough pre-flight inspection before every flight. Every control
> surface is checked for continuity, all four gas tanks are visually
> inspected, oil is checked, wheel pants are given a tug, prop is examined,
> stall indicator movement verified, every screw, bolt and connector is
> visually inspected...
>

A preflight before every flight? I don't think so. Once a day. Check
the stall warner? Every year at the annual.

[three-eight-hotel]

How about checking the oil, and visually inspecting (dipping the tanks)
the fuel before every flight?

Fuel guages aren't always trust-worthy, and I don't know that somebody
hasn't siphoned fuel from my tanks while I was enjoying that $100
hamburger.

1st flight of the day... Always a thorough pre-flight inspection
(including duats or wxbrief).

If I stop somewhere for lunch, where the plane is out of my site for an
hour or so... Walk-around, looking to see that nobody bumped into the
bird while I was eating, dip the tanks, check the oil, and do a
standard run-up and controls check.

Day trip, where the plane has been sitting somewhere for an extended
period of time... I treat it like the first flight of the day.

I never take off, without dipping the tanks and checking the oil...

Best Regards,
Todd

[rps]

Mike wrote:
> Thomas Borchert wrote:
> > Bob,
> >
> >> Obviously the current system isn't working well.
> >>
> >
> > So you didn't even check? And you do tha regularly? Jeeze, wtf do you
> > expect? This makes what happened entirely your fault, I'm afraid. And,
>
> What's funny is the guy keeps saying he didn't know the President was in
> town. I think this is a case of not doing the pre-flight homework. I
> knew about the TFR two days before it went into effect.

On an extended trip, a "pop-up" TFR can appear after you've checked
NOTAMs prior to departure. The only way I can think of to avoid these
is to be talking to ATC (e.g., under IFR or with flight following)
during your flight. I'm not sure if the satellite service providers
have enough notification to identify pop-up TFRs. While Bob and the
pilot described in the news article Mike identified probably violated
TFRs that were in a published NOTAM, a pop-up NOTAM can be difficult to
avoid if you're flying VFR and are not talking to ATC.

Also, I recall from an AOPA article that some TFRs are mobile. For
example, there are TFRs over and around the president and the vice
president no matter where they happen to be, including when they are
moving. Their precise movements and positions are justifiably
unpublished until the last possible moment for obvious reasons, and so
these TFRs can also be difficult to avoid if you're not talking to ATC.
I don't know if the satellite service providers find out about these
in time, either.

I think the days of taking off after merely checking the fuel tanks and
kicking the tire, and flying VFR wherever interest leads us, are gone
in large metropolitan areas. In my view, taking off without checking
weather and NOTAMs is reckless behavior, whether in a metropolitan area
or elsewhere. I think there's also an argument that not talking to ATC
during flight in metropolitan areas is negligent behavior.

By penetrating TFRs without ATC authorization, negligent pilots are
making it all the easier for opponents of general aviation to make
their case with Congress and others.

In my opinion, we should:
1) Check weather and NOTAMs with FSS before EVERY flight;
2) talk to ATC by either filing and flying IFR or getting flight
following; and
3) encourage every pilot you know to do the same.

It may restrict the freedom we value so much, but will go a long way
toward trying to ensure that we don't lose that freedom altogether.

[B A R R Y]

Newps wrote:
>
>
> A preflight before every flight? I don't think so. Once a day. Check
> the stall warner? Every year at the annual.

I do it once a day, unless the aircraft has been moved by ground
handlers, then I spend an entire extra 15 minutes.

A "three loop" preflight doesn't take more than 15 minutes on my
Sundowner. Maybe an extra 3 is required if I need to clean the windshield.

After removing the pitot cover & cowl plugs:

Loop One (3 minutes) (start in cockpit):
Record numbers
Controls free and correct
Master on
Fuel pump on - chk pressure
Fuel pump off
All lights and pitot heat on
- leave plane, chk all lights, strobes, pitot heat, stall horn
Master off
Flaps extended - leave for loop two

Loop Two (10-12 mins)(grab GATS jar):
Left flap
Left Aileron
Left Tip
Sight Wing
Left LE
Left tie down (remove)
Eyeball left fuel
Drain fuel sample
Check left wheel, tire & brake while cup fills
Check sample, return to tank if OK
Left Nose
Nose Gear
Spinner
Prop
Alternator Belt
Cowl openings
Check Oil & cover security
Right Nose
Drain gascolator
Eyeball and check belly panels and antennae
Eyeball right fuel
Pour gascolator sample in right tank (if good)
Pull right sample as I eyeball tire, wheel and brake
Check Sample
Right LE
Right tie down
Right Tip
Sight wing skin
Right Aileron
Right Flap
Right Static Port
Right Stabilator
Trim tab
Eyeball fuselage skin (both sides)
Rudder
Tail tie down
Left Stabilator
Left Static port
Toss GATS jar back in baggage area
Secure baggage area
Pull chock

Loop Three (20 seconds)
Walk around, viewing overall picture from 10-15 feet away

Clean windshield (if necessary)
Return to cockpit
Retract flaps

Stuff like the lights, stall horn, etc... take what, 5 seconds each to
check during the first orbit? <G>

This procedure takes almost as long to write out as it does to do, and
automatically checks for ice, ground damage, stolen fuel, etc... Unless
you're flying an airliner, where's the waste?

[Peter Duniho]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:WFDdg.3821$1i1.3343@attbi_s72...
>> Check nav lights and rotating beacon
>
> You check them on EVERY flight? I only check those before a night flight.
> (And my rotating beacon was removed years ago, in lieu of strobes.)

Of course you check them on every flight. Your strobes are required even in
daytime. And the other lights, well...would you rather learn they were
inoperative when you don't need them, or just before you were planning to
head out at night, thus forcing the flight to be scrubbed?

Pete

[Javier]

Peter Duniho wrote:
> "Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
> news:WFDdg.3821$1i1.3343@attbi_s72...
>>> Check nav lights and rotating beacon
>> You check them on EVERY flight? I only check those before a night flight.
>> (And my rotating beacon was removed years ago, in lieu of strobes.)
>
> Of course you check them on every flight. Your strobes are required even in
> daytime. And the other lights, well...would you rather learn they were
> inoperative when you don't need them, or just before you were planning to
> head out at night, thus forcing the flight to be scrubbed?

That is exactly why I check them before every flight, and also why I
carry a spare 7512-12V in the little junk box in the back.

-jav

[The Visitor]

Peter Duniho wrote:
Your strobes are required even in
> daytime.

So a Cub with no electrical system, can't fly day vfr?

[Jay Honeck]

> I guarantee you that in three minutes, you do NOT check "every screw, bolt
> and connector".
>
> You are fooling yourself if you think that three minutes is sufficient
> time for a preflight inspection.

Well, maybe it's my familiarity with the bird. No, I'm not checking the
torque of every bolt, but I do use the fuel tester Phillips screw driver to
check screws for tightness. And I always sump the tanks, and check the
oil.

Additionally, I visually inspect every control surface hinge and manually
move each control surface, checking for proper hinge pin placement, etc.
On my plane, it's not possible to "open the engine up" (like we used to do
in our Warrior), so that saves me a bit of time, too. (Time I'd rather
spend, quite frankly; our one-piece fiberglass cowl may look better than the
Warriors, but I sure miss being able to visually inspect the engine before
each flight.)

I have no idea what could take more than 3 - 5 minutes, unless you find
something suspicious. Hopefully, that's a rare occasion, indeed.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jim Logajan]

The Visitor > wrote:
> Peter Duniho wrote:
> Your strobes are required even in
>> daytime.
>
> So a Cub with no electrical system, can't fly day vfr?

I think FAR 91.209 (b) covers this - IF the plane is equipped with
anticollision lights they must lighted (unless the PIC determines in the
interest of safety they should be turned off). So a plane not even equipped
with them is naturally not required to light them!

[Jay Honeck]

>>I've still got 12 to 17 minutes left. What're you doing that I'm not?
>
> Sampling/draining all five fuel sumps?

Yep.

> Testing the stall warning
> switch

Yep.

> & ELT operation

Nope. But mine is brand, spanking new.

> inspecting the brake linings, looking for
> hydraulic leaks, tire treads

No-can-do with Fancy Pants. Everything is inside. But I inspect for
puddles.

> pitot/static ports

Yep.

> prop condition,
> spinner attachment

Yep.

> http://www.dauntless-soft.com/PRODUCTS/Freebies/HandlingNotes/aircraftinfo.asp?ID=29

Your list counts a lot of stuff that I prefer to do more as "daily
maintenance" than "pre-flight". For example, cleaning the windshield is a
whole different thing when it's your plane, in your hangar. As a renter,
cleaning the windshield was a "pre-flight" item. As an owner, it's a
"post-flight" item, so that the plane is ready to go for the next flight.
Same with fueling.

My pre-flight checks have evolved over the years. As previously stated, I
don't check my nav lights anymore unless I'm anticipating a night flight.
(Do you fly with them on in the daytime?) Strobes are checked as a roll
past my hangar rows, and I view their reflection. Checking my landing light
before engine start used to be a critical item; now, with three of them,
it's a non-event. (I can see them from the cockpit now...)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Honeck]

> This procedure takes almost as long to write out as it does to do

Well, it sure didn't take me 15 minutes to read. Honestly, I think some of
you guys are experiencing time-elongation during preflight...

;-)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Peter Duniho]

"The Visitor" > wrote in message
...
> Peter Duniho wrote:
>> Your strobes are required even in daytime.
>
> So a Cub with no electrical system, can't fly day vfr?

No, and that's not what I said. Your reading comprehension is pitiful.

I wrote "YOUR strobes are required even in daytime". Jay's airplane is
equipped with strobes, and no rotating beacon (so they are his
anti-collision lights). As such, they are required to be lit during all
operations, including daytime.

Pete

[Peter Duniho]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:ynPdg.992508$xm3.784486@attbi_s21...
>> You are fooling yourself if you think that three minutes is sufficient
>> time for a preflight inspection.
>
> Well, maybe it's my familiarity with the bird.

No, it's not. I've owned my airplane for 12 years. Three minutes is still
insufficient.

Frankly, every post you make you add stuff to your description of your
preflight. I have no idea how you manage to do all that stuff in three
minutes. You are either recklessly rushing through everything, or you have
a completely distorted sense of time.

Next time you do a preflight, get someone to actually time you, and do the
preflight in a careful, relaxed, methodical manner. If you are really doing
everything you claim to be doing, there's no way it takes three minutes.

Three minutes is an incredibly short period of time. I'm a fast typist, and
it took at least three minutes to compose this post.

Pete

[Jay Honeck]

> No, it's not. I've owned my airplane for 12 years. Three minutes is
> still insufficient.
>
> Frankly, every post you make you add stuff to your description of your
> preflight. I have no idea how you manage to do all that stuff in three
> minutes. You are either recklessly rushing through everything, or you
> have a completely distorted sense of time.

That's possible, I suppose. Time spent flying (and preflighting) is NOT
deducted from your lifespan, so it pays to take your time... ;-)

I still say you're suffering from time elongation during preflight. Unless
I find something wrong or that needs adjustment, or lubrication (the yokes,
for example), or cleaning (the windshield -- but we try to do that AFTER
flight), I can't imagine taking 15 minutes on a preflight inspection. Not
on a fixed gear, single engine plane, anyway.

How long does your pre-takeoff checklist take you? Perhaps we're
commingling different parts of the lists, and counting them differently as a
result? (For example, Bob Noel checks his electric fuel pump during
pre-flight, which adds some time. We check the pump at engine start, so
we're not counting that particular check as part of our pre-flight
inspection...)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Matt Whiting]

Peter Duniho wrote:

> "Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
> news:ynPdg.992508$xm3.784486@attbi_s21...
>
>>>You are fooling yourself if you think that three minutes is sufficient
>>>time for a preflight inspection.
>>
>>Well, maybe it's my familiarity with the bird.
>
>
> No, it's not. I've owned my airplane for 12 years. Three minutes is still
> insufficient.
>
> Frankly, every post you make you add stuff to your description of your
> preflight. I have no idea how you manage to do all that stuff in three
> minutes. You are either recklessly rushing through everything, or you have
> a completely distorted sense of time.
>
> Next time you do a preflight, get someone to actually time you, and do the
> preflight in a careful, relaxed, methodical manner. If you are really doing
> everything you claim to be doing, there's no way it takes three minutes.
>
> Three minutes is an incredibly short period of time. I'm a fast typist, and
> it took at least three minutes to compose this post.

I don't know about that. I counted roughly 120 words in your post. If
that took three minutes, then you are typing at 40 words per minute.
That isn't a fast typist by any means. I type 50+ and consider myself
slow. Wife and daughters type well over 100. That is fast.

I'm with Jay on this one. I could preflight my Skylane in no much more
than three minutes. I'd probably say 5 just to be on the safe side, but
it just doesn't take that long to walk around the airplane and pull, tug
and view the essential items.

Matt

[Allen]

"Peter Duniho" > wrote in message
...
> "The Visitor" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Peter Duniho wrote:
> >> Your strobes are required even in daytime.
> >
> > So a Cub with no electrical system, can't fly day vfr?
>
> No, and that's not what I said. Your reading comprehension is pitiful.
>
> I wrote "YOUR strobes are required even in daytime". Jay's airplane is
> equipped with strobes, and no rotating beacon (so they are his
> anti-collision lights). As such, they are required to be lit during all
> operations, including daytime.
>
> Pete

Newer twin-Cessnas have two switches, one labeled "anti-coll" that turns on
the rotating beacon and one labeled "strobes" that .turns on the stobe
lights. The strobes do not have to be turned on during day-vfr.

I know you are referring to Jay's airplane not having a beacon must operate
the strobes but others not reading the full thread (as I started out to do)
may think that strobes are always required to be on if you have them.

Just a nit :)

Allen

[Peter Duniho]

"Allen" > wrote in message
om...
> Newer twin-Cessnas have two switches, one labeled "anti-coll" that turns
> on
> the rotating beacon and one labeled "strobes" that .turns on the stobe
> lights. The strobes do not have to be turned on during day-vfr.

I've flown older Cessnas with the same configuration. There are LOTS of
airplanes with both strobes and a rotating beacon, of all sorts of ages.
So? The rule says that the anti-collision lights need to be on. If your
strobes aren't your anti-collision lights, then obviously they aren't
addressed by that regulation.

This is basic stuff, should be covered in anyone's primary training. Blame
your instructor if you're confused by this thread.

> I know you are referring to Jay's airplane not having a beacon must
> operate
> the strobes but others not reading the full thread (as I started out to
> do)
> may think that strobes are always required to be on if you have them.

They would only think that if they didn't bother to know and understand the
regulations. I never wrote that strobes are always required to be on, and
no one should infer that from my post. I was very specific about what I
wrote.

> Just a nit :)

It's not a nit. It's just irrelevant. A "nit" would address some failure
in what I wrote. Everything I wrote was true and correct. It was intended
to address a very specific point, in a very specific context. Anyone trying
to extrapolate that point to some unrelated context is making a mistake.

Pete

[Peter Duniho]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:QLXdg.5074$1i1.1849@attbi_s72...
> That's possible, I suppose. Time spent flying (and preflighting) is NOT
> deducted from your lifespan, so it pays to take your time... ;-)

Preflighting *is* part of flying, as you say. I know for a fact it takes me
15 minutes, but I also know for a fact that it doesn't feel like 15 minutes
because time flies when you're having fun. I enjoy the inspection, and the
minutes just pass by like water.

> I still say you're suffering from time elongation during preflight.

I suffer from the same time distortion you do. It doesn't seem like 15
minutes. But I've checked the clock on several occasions. I know how long
it actually takes.

> [...]
> How long does your pre-takeoff checklist take you? Perhaps we're
> commingling different parts of the lists, and counting them differently as
> a result?

I do a normal run-up. Electric fuel pump is my primer, and so operation is
checked during engine start, like for your airplane. In any case, even on a
172, with much simpler systems than on my own airplane, my preflight is
generally over 10 minutes, and that's an airplane I can't even get into the
engine compartment with.

I don't know what else you might be considering...my pre-takeoff checks are
pretty typical as far as I know, except for the flight control check (only
the ailerons are visible from the cockpit, so I do check the flight controls
during the walkaround). If anything, I would guess my pre-takeoff checks
are fewer than others' for that reason.

Pete

[Peter Duniho]

"Matt Whiting" > wrote in message
...
> I don't know about that. I counted roughly 120 words in your post. If
> that took three minutes, then you are typing at 40 words per minute.

Most of the time spent composing a post isn't the typing. It's the figuring
out what to say, proof-reading, etc. My point about being a fast typist was
just to make sure it's understood that typing isn't the bottleneck in my
case, artificially increasing the time taken to post.

> [...]
> I'm with Jay on this one. I could preflight my Skylane in no much more
> than three minutes. I'd probably say 5 just to be on the safe side, but
> it just doesn't take that long to walk around the airplane and pull, tug
> and view the essential items.

You aren't doing a sufficient preflight either.

I easily recognize that there are pilots doing three minute preflights.
That doesn't mean those preflights are effective. Try that in one of the
Embry-Riddle-style preflight competitions and you'd be laughed off the ramp.

Pete

[Chris Colohan]

"Jay Honeck" > writes:
> How long does your pre-takeoff checklist take you? Perhaps we're
> commingling different parts of the lists, and counting them differently as a
> result? (For example, Bob Noel checks his electric fuel pump during
> pre-flight, which adds some time. We check the pump at engine start, so
> we're not counting that particular check as part of our pre-flight
> inspection...)

Another data point -- I am not nearly as experienced as you are, but
going through every item on the Citabria checklist takes me 20-30
minutes.

I know this 'cause I have to make sure I have this done before my
instructor shows up. :-)

Chris
--
Chris Colohan Email: PGP: finger
Web: www.colohan.com Phone: (412)268-4751

[Matt Whiting]

Chris Colohan wrote:
> "Jay Honeck" > writes:
>
>>How long does your pre-takeoff checklist take you? Perhaps we're
>>commingling different parts of the lists, and counting them differently as a
>>result? (For example, Bob Noel checks his electric fuel pump during
>>pre-flight, which adds some time. We check the pump at engine start, so
>>we're not counting that particular check as part of our pre-flight
>>inspection...)
>
>
> Another data point -- I am not nearly as experienced as you are, but
> going through every item on the Citabria checklist takes me 20-30
> minutes.

Wow, you've got to get out of 1st gear. :-)

I could preflight my 182, wash the windshield, change the oil and check
the tire pressures in 10 minutes time. I didn't realize a Citabria was
so complex. Does the preflight require ultrasonic inspection of the
structure or some such? :-)


Matt

[NW_PILOT]

The TFR's I don't like are the pop up Fire Fighting Ones...

Yea, Call and get a weather briefer check for TFR's along the route anf
there are "NO" TFR's along the route!!! you are on flight following center
says NXXXXX TFR 5 miles straight ahead off XXX radial of XXX VOR present
heading will put you in the middle of Said TFR Suggest heading of XXX Until
advised. You call up flight watch on 122.0 and 1 hour prior the TFR was
issued you called 2.5 hours ago.

I make it a habit when flying in fire prone areas of the US to check about
every hour or two for any pop up TFR's and any other notams along the route
and also give a pirep on the current conditions.


"bob" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Seems I busted a VIP TFR Monday near Sacramento (VP Cheney was in town
> raising money for a couple of congressmen). On landing at my
> destination I was asked by the airport manager to call an ATC number,
> who got my info and said they would forward it to the local FSDO as a
> "pilot deviation". I'm not disputing that I indeed was ignorant of the
> TFR and violated it.
>
> So what can I expect? I've already figured out that the Secret Service
> isn't going to arrest me. My biggest concern is what it will do to my
> insurance costs when I renew next year. Should I bother filing the
> NASA ASRS form? Since I'm a PP-ASEL and flying is a hobby, I don't
> otherwise care a lot if my license is suspended for a time or I end up
> with a record.
>

[Chris Colohan]

Matt Whiting > writes:

> Chris Colohan wrote:
> > Another data point -- I am not nearly as experienced as you are, but
>
> > going through every item on the Citabria checklist takes me 20-30
> > minutes.
>
> Wow, you've got to get out of 1st gear. :-)
>
> I could preflight my 182, wash the windshield, change the oil and
> check the tire pressures in 10 minutes time. I didn't realize a
> Citabria was so complex. Does the preflight require ultrasonic
> inspection of the structure or some such? :-)

I admit I am new to this, and I could probably go faster with
experience. But I attribute most of this time to checking everything
that can be seen, touched, or smelled that I can get my hands, eyes,
or nose on. The plane I fly is kind of old and creaky -- and I am
paranoid enough to check everything that reasonably can be checked
without tools. Sometimes I find myself falling into habit, and doing
a check quickly -- when I notice this, I force myself to slow down and
do the check again purposefully. Sometimes I notice things on the
second time which my eyes skimmed over on the first check.

My instructor also provided a 10-page checklist for me to use on the
preflight. Perhaps this is more detailed than average? (My
instructor claims that the checklist started off much shorter, but
grew every time something went wrong over his many years of flying
Citabrias...)

One other data point -- about half of the time I fly the Citabria I
find a minor problem (not major enough to affect airworthiness, but
worth fixing: screw missing on a wing root fairing, underinflated
tire, slightly low on oil, etc.) This plane is based at a busy club,
and many other pilots fly the plane in between my flying sessions. I
take this as a good sign -- my preflight technique is noticing
problems which other pilots are missing, before they become more major
problems. (Alternative explanations: 1. all of these minor problem
occurred right before I want to go flying; 2. other pilots noticed
these problems but didn't think they were worth writing them down as
squawks.)

Chris
--
Chris Colohan Email: PGP: finger
Web: www.colohan.com Phone: (412)268-4751

[Matt Whiting]

Chris Colohan wrote:

> Matt Whiting > writes:
>
>
>>Chris Colohan wrote:
>>
>>>Another data point -- I am not nearly as experienced as you are, but
>>
>>>going through every item on the Citabria checklist takes me 20-30
>>>minutes.
>>
>>Wow, you've got to get out of 1st gear. :-)
>>
>>I could preflight my 182, wash the windshield, change the oil and
>>check the tire pressures in 10 minutes time. I didn't realize a
>>Citabria was so complex. Does the preflight require ultrasonic
>>inspection of the structure or some such? :-)
>
>
> I admit I am new to this, and I could probably go faster with
> experience. But I attribute most of this time to checking everything
> that can be seen, touched, or smelled that I can get my hands, eyes,
> or nose on. The plane I fly is kind of old and creaky -- and I am
> paranoid enough to check everything that reasonably can be checked
> without tools. Sometimes I find myself falling into habit, and doing
> a check quickly -- when I notice this, I force myself to slow down and
> do the check again purposefully. Sometimes I notice things on the
> second time which my eyes skimmed over on the first check.
>
> My instructor also provided a 10-page checklist for me to use on the
> preflight. Perhaps this is more detailed than average? (My
> instructor claims that the checklist started off much shorter, but
> grew every time something went wrong over his many years of flying
> Citabrias...)

A 10 page preflight checklist is simply ridiculous. All of the
checklists for my Skylane, including the emergency ones that I made up
myself since Cessna didn't provide much of any, were less than 10 pages.


Matt

[David J. Zera]

well.....just food for thought all of the major cell phone carriers sell a
program that can be downloaded to many phones that has TFR's as well as full
weather its called Pilot My-cast

https://secure.my-cast.com/pilot.jsp

Dave Zera
Co-Chariman
Safety / Flight Line
AirVenture 2006

"Bob Fry" > wrote in message
...
>>>>>> "JD" == John Doe > writes:
>
> JD> I had my first experience with a VIP TFR last weekend. Bush
> JD> was in town and I had gotten an email from AOPA notifying me
> JD> of the TFR in my area.
>
> Bush was in Sacto a few weeks ago and I too got the AOPA notification
> by email. Because of that, and checking the extent of that TFR, I
> decided not to risk it and simply didn't fly that weekend.
>
> But for the TFR I violated, I didn't get a notice from AOPA. Why, I'm
> not sure. And the local newspaper had nothing about Cheney's visit
> until afterwards so I didn't know he was in town.
>
> JD> Luckily, I've learned to check NOTAMS prior to every flight,
> JD> and following the procedures, the TFR didn't delay me at all
> JD> in getting on my way.
>
> I rarely check NOTAMS or get a briefing for local VFR flights, and
> quite honestly I doubt I'll change my habits. The FAA should
> recognize that using NOTAMs alone are not enough. Maybe they should
> take email addresses and locations from pilots (kinda like AOPA) and
> send notices when a TFR is going to pop up in a given area.
>
> Maybe they could reserve a frequency just to broadcast important area
> NOTAMs. Pilots would get in the habit of checking it before takeoff
> and during flight. Maybe area NOTAMs could be added on to AWOS
> broadcasts. Something?
>
>

[Mortimer Schnerd, RN[_1_]]

David J. Zera wrote:
> well.....just food for thought all of the major cell phone carriers sell a
> program that can be downloaded to many phones that has TFR's as well as full
> weather its called Pilot My-cast
>
> https://secure.my-cast.com/pilot.jsp


Looks pretty good except it works for every phone known to man except the one I
JUST got two weeks ago. I'n stuck with it for two years, too.

Damn.




--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN

[[email protected]]

On Sun, 09 Jul 2006 00:59:47 GMT, "Mortimer Schnerd, RN"
> wrote:

>David J. Zera wrote:
>> well.....just food for thought all of the major cell phone carriers sell a
>> program that can be downloaded to many phones that has TFR's as well as full
>> weather its called Pilot My-cast
>>
>> https://secure.my-cast.com/pilot.jsp
>
>
>Looks pretty good except it works for every phone known to man except the one I
>JUST got two weeks ago. I'n stuck with it for two years, too.

It works with my phone, but I'd have to change providers to use it
with that phone which doesn't make sense.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com
>
>Damn.
Roger

[Bob Fry]

Nice idea, but doesn't work with my phone.

I still haven't got the letter from the FAA detailing my punishment,
but after talking to the FSDO a few times I know what to expect:

- 30 day license suspension for violating the TFR, NASA ASRS form
doesn't work to suspend penalty

- Another 15 days added by local FSDO for failing to get complete
information before flight; actually serving the penalty is waived by
ASRS

Other things I learned, most from AOPA's web site:

- When asked to return a phone call, whether the tower, ATC, or the
FAA, a pilot is under absolutely no legal requirement to do so.

- And in fact you're often better off not to call back. Even the FSDO
guy admitted that they lessen their add-on penalty if they're not sure
they have the right person. In other words, being stand-up and not
concealing anything simply makes you an easy target and a chump. I
would probably call back for a tower or class C controller, but
probably won't for anything else in the future.

- If you decide to call for a briefing before every flight, you can
ask for just NOTAMs and TFRs. However this may not protect you from
the add-on penalty for not getting complete info before flight.

- FSS briefers can and do fail to report vital information, most often
if it's out of their region. Two local pilots, after hearing about
me, related tales of neglected information (a safety TFR and a
malfunctioning VOR) that would be pretty important to flight safety.
They knew about these only by chance, and when they asked the FSS
briefer about them, the response they got was "Oh yea, thanks for
reminding me!" (TFR) and "Oh, does anybody use VORs anymore?" But at
least you'll be on record and your legal butt will be safe, if not
your physical butt.

More when I get the letter....sometime.

[David J. Zera]

Mortimer,

The list that Digital cyclone keeps on supported phone is really out of
date. depending on your carrier access the download pages on the phone's
web. My sprint phone (mm9000) is not listed on the supported pages BUT it is
supported and downloadable from Sprint's site. I believe that you will find
that you can download and use it!

Dave Zera
Co-Chariman
Safety / Flight line
AirVenture 2006
"Mortimer Schnerd, RN" > wrote in message
...
> David J. Zera wrote:
>> well.....just food for thought all of the major cell phone carriers sell
>> a
>> program that can be downloaded to many phones that has TFR's as well as
>> full
>> weather its called Pilot My-cast
>>
>> https://secure.my-cast.com/pilot.jsp
>
>
> Looks pretty good except it works for every phone known to man except the
> one I JUST got two weeks ago. I'n stuck with it for two years, too.
>
> Damn.
>
>
>
>
> --
> Mortimer Schnerd, RN
>
>
>
>
>

[Roy Smith]

Bob Fry > wrote:
> - FSS briefers can and do fail to report vital information, most often
> if it's out of their region. Two local pilots, after hearing about
> me, related tales of neglected information (a safety TFR and a
> malfunctioning VOR) that would be pretty important to flight safety.
> They knew about these only by chance, and when they asked the FSS
> briefer about them, the response they got was "Oh yea, thanks for
> reminding me!" (TFR) and "Oh, does anybody use VORs anymore?" But at
> least you'll be on record and your legal butt will be safe, if not
> your physical butt.

I discovered a wonderful example of that recently. R-5206 is about 15
miles from White Plains (HPN). It's active mostly in July and August, but
"O/T by NOTAM", and it does indeed get activated from time to time year
round. You would think calling FSS and asking for a "notams in a 25 mile
radius around HPN" would get you the information that R-5206 was hot,
right? WRONG!

It turns out, that R-5206's notams are filed under IGN (Kingston VOR), and
IGN is more than 25 miles from HPN, so the notam doesn't show up in the
25-mile briefing. What idiocy!

I've been flying in the area for 10 years and only found this out a couple
of months ago, pretty much by accident. I asked a student of mine to give
me the highlights of his briefing. I knew 5206 was hot because I saw the
notam (I typically ask duats for a 50-mile radius, and IGN falls within
that). He gave me a complete weather rundown, but didn't mention the
notam. I asked him about 5206, and he said the briefer didn't say anything
about it.

At this point, I started to suspect he hadn't really gotten a briefing, so
I made him get another one, and put it on speaker while I listened. He
did, and sure enough, the briefer said nothing about 5206. Before he hung
up, I asked specifically about 5206 and got the notam telling us it was
hot. It wasn't until sometime later that I put two and two together and
figured out the IGN bit.