preferrred bank angle indicator?

[Matt Herron Jr.]

As a low time pilot (<150 hrs) I have been alarmed at the number of
recent incidents relating to getting trapped in clouds. In reading
though some old posts on this forum, I have concluded that even though
everyone has the best intention of never getting into clouds, it still
can happen to even the most experienced pilots.

I was encouraged to see that there were some viable options for getting
out of the clouds alive, including the benign spiral, flying south by
compas and using turn errors to maintain a heading with dive brakes,
using GPS heading and groundspeed, and T&B indicators. From what was
writtten, I don't consider a spin a safe option anymore, unless I was
being pulled up into a large cell at 15 kts. So in an effort to keep
my personal survival rate up to 100%, minimize pilot stress, and
maximize my options, I am considering installing some type of bank
angle indicator in the plane I fly (LS4a).

I noticed the TruTrak spins up in 3 seconds, gives an acurate bank
angle even if powered on in a turn, and uses relatively little power.
Does anyone have an opinion about this instrument or others that would
do the trick? My only criteria is that it helps me get out of the
clouds alive.

Thanks for any advice!

[Gary Evans]

At 18:00 25 May 2006, Matt Herron Jr. wrote:
>As a low time pilot (<150 hrs) I have been alarmed
>at the number of
>recent incidents relating to getting trapped in clouds.
> In reading
>though some old posts on this forum, I have concluded
>that even though
>everyone has the best intention of never getting into
>clouds, it still
>can happen to even the most experienced pilots.
>
>I was encouraged to see that there were some viable
>options for getting
>out of the clouds alive, including the benign spiral,
>flying south by
>compas and using turn errors to maintain a heading
>with dive brakes,
>using GPS heading and groundspeed, and T&B indicators.
> From what was
>writtten, I don't consider a spin a safe option anymore,
>unless I was
>being pulled up into a large cell at 15 kts. So in
>an effort to keep
>my personal survival rate up to 100%, minimize pilot
>stress, and
>maximize my options, I am considering installing some
>type of bank
>angle indicator in the plane I fly (LS4a).
>
>I noticed the TruTrak spins up in 3 seconds, gives
>an acurate bank
>angle even if powered on in a turn, and uses relatively
>little power.
>Does anyone have an opinion about this instrument or
>others that would
>do the trick? My only criteria is that it helps me
>get out of the
>clouds alive.
>
>Thanks for any advice!
>
>

I have a TruTrak installed for this purpose and it
appears to be an excellent choice. It turns on in an
instant and shows bank angle all the while your turning.
It does not show pitch but for a sailplane the airspeed
indicator will suffice.

[snoop]

Best advice? Learn how to identify a cloud, then stay out of it.
Sounds absurd, but unless you have real IFR experience, then you
should stay the legal limit away from the cloud. If you go gearing up
your ship for instrument flight, then your going to find yourself
pushing close, probably going IFR.

Do this. Have someone blindfold you, then, while in a hallway in your
house, where you can run for say 3 seconds, the time to spool up your
little turn/bank, takeoff running full speed. Then report back to us.

Think of the first wall or table you hit, as another aircraft in the
clouds. That's how fast it could happen. All that crap about flying GPS
headings, flying south/turn errors, all witchcraft. Don't subscribe to
it.

Learn the facts, and you'll hit closer to your 100% survival rate.
Learning safety takes dedication. Don't take shortcuts!
Have fun!
Snoop

Matt Herron Jr. wrote:
> As a low time pilot (<150 hrs) I have been alarmed at the number of
> recent incidents relating to getting trapped in clouds. In reading
> though some old posts on this forum, I have concluded that even though
> everyone has the best intention of never getting into clouds, it still
> can happen to even the most experienced pilots.
>
> I was encouraged to see that there were some viable options for getting
> out of the clouds alive, including the benign spiral, flying south by
> compas and using turn errors to maintain a heading with dive brakes,
> using GPS heading and groundspeed, and T&B indicators. From what was
> writtten, I don't consider a spin a safe option anymore, unless I was
> being pulled up into a large cell at 15 kts. So in an effort to keep
> my personal survival rate up to 100%, minimize pilot stress, and
> maximize my options, I am considering installing some type of bank
> angle indicator in the plane I fly (LS4a).
>
> I noticed the TruTrak spins up in 3 seconds, gives an acurate bank
> angle even if powered on in a turn, and uses relatively little power.
> Does anyone have an opinion about this instrument or others that would
> do the trick? My only criteria is that it helps me get out of the
> clouds alive.
>
> Thanks for any advice!

[Stefan]

Matt Herron Jr. schrieb:

> As a low time pilot (<150 hrs) I have been alarmed at the number of
> recent incidents relating to getting trapped in clouds. In reading
> though some old posts on this forum, I have concluded that even though
> everyone has the best intention of never getting into clouds, it still
> can happen to even the most experienced pilots.

First, not every pilot tries to stay out of cluds. There are many (me
included), who enter clouds by purpose and for the fun of it. Of course,
we're appropriately trained and the glider is appropriately equipped.

Second, those who want to stay out of cluds can do so. No, it cannot
"happen to even the most experienced pilots" if you fly on the safe
side. Of course, there are always pilots who gamble.

> I was encouraged to see that there were some viable options for getting
> out of the clouds alive, including the benign spiral, flying south by
> compas and using turn errors to maintain a heading with dive brakes,
> using GPS heading and groundspeed,

Believing in these "vialble options" is what I call gambling.

> and T&B indicators.

The *only* reliable option.

> From what was
> writtten, I don't consider a spin a safe option anymore,

Many modern gliders won't stay in a spin but rather go into a spiral
dive rather quick. No option.

> I noticed the TruTrak spins up in 3 seconds, gives an acurate bank
> angle even if powered on in a turn, and uses relatively little power.

No, TruTrak does *not* give you a bank angle. It gives you a turn rate.
Relying on an instrument without fully understandiing it is what I call
gambling.

> Does anyone have an opinion about this instrument

I hate it, exactly because it seems to give you a bank angle while it
does not.

> or others that would do the trick?

Buy a real old fashioned turn & bank indicator and get some training.
Without training, you're lost in IMC even with the best instruments. Or,
better yet, fly safe and don't let you get trapped. It's possible.

Stefan

[Eric Greenwell]

I'm with snoop: prevention is better than the cure.

In any case, it's got to be one of the lowest risks facing glider
pilots. I know more people that forgot to hook up the elevator on their
ASW 20s than have been sucked into clouds. In 5000 hours of glider
flying mostly in the Western USA, I've never come close to being sucked
into a cloud, as moving to one side or the other, moving out from under
the cloud, opening the dive brakes, or just speeding up have always been
sufficient. The only area where I have experienced strong enough lift to
be of real concern was flying in the Ely-Tonopah area. So, use the "45
degree rule" when flying in areas with powerful lift, and you'll be fine.

Still, knowing how to descend through cloud may be worthwhile. I've
never had to do it, but two of our club members have had to do it after
while wave flying. It doesn't cost anything to check the benign spiral
ability of your glider, or to see GPS or compass methods might work for you.

snoop wrote:
> Best advice? Learn how to identify a cloud, then stay out of it.
> Sounds absurd, but unless you have real IFR experience, then you
> should stay the legal limit away from the cloud. If you go gearing up
> your ship for instrument flight, then your going to find yourself
> pushing close, probably going IFR.
>
> Do this. Have someone blindfold you, then, while in a hallway in your
> house, where you can run for say 3 seconds, the time to spool up your
> little turn/bank, takeoff running full speed. Then report back to us.
>
> Think of the first wall or table you hit, as another aircraft in the
> clouds. That's how fast it could happen. All that crap about flying GPS
> headings, flying south/turn errors, all witchcraft. Don't subscribe to
> it.
>
> Learn the facts, and you'll hit closer to your 100% survival rate.
> Learning safety takes dedication. Don't take shortcuts!
> Have fun!
> Snoop
>
> Matt Herron Jr. wrote:
>> As a low time pilot (<150 hrs) I have been alarmed at the number of
>> recent incidents relating to getting trapped in clouds. In reading
>> though some old posts on this forum, I have concluded that even though
>> everyone has the best intention of never getting into clouds, it still
>> can happen to even the most experienced pilots.
>>
>> I was encouraged to see that there were some viable options for getting
>> out of the clouds alive, including the benign spiral, flying south by
>> compas and using turn errors to maintain a heading with dive brakes,
>> using GPS heading and groundspeed, and T&B indicators. From what was
>> writtten, I don't consider a spin a safe option anymore, unless I was
>> being pulled up into a large cell at 15 kts. So in an effort to keep
>> my personal survival rate up to 100%, minimize pilot stress, and
>> maximize my options, I am considering installing some type of bank
>> angle indicator in the plane I fly (LS4a).
>>
>> I noticed the TruTrak spins up in 3 seconds, gives an acurate bank
>> angle even if powered on in a turn, and uses relatively little power.
>> Does anyone have an opinion about this instrument or others that would
>> do the trick? My only criteria is that it helps me get out of the
>> clouds alive.
>>
>> Thanks for any advice!
>


--
Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA

www.motorglider.org - Download "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane
Operation"

[Marc Arsenault]

Hello Matt,

These days many seem to depend on equipment to get them across "extreme"
sports of all sorts. Aviation, which includes soaring is not an "extreme"
sport. The best solution for you is to learn meteorology as a science and
art. As aviators, this is the most important subject to master, moreover the
insight gained will always get you home, even if you are fully instrument
qualified. Start pushing the weather and I, sadly, do not give much future
for your career.

Still not convinced? Get yourself into an IFR equiped aircraft with an
experienced pilot and fly into the soup, turbulence, icing, precipitation
smashing on your canopy, etc... This is serious stuff, not comming from
overmarketted computer softwhare. Flying in clouds is serious business,
never mind not seing who or what is in front of you. The rest is frivolous
at best.

Flying is all about staying in front of your machine and the environment.
This is where the fun comes from!

Regards

Marc Arsenault


"Matt Herron Jr." > a écrit dans le message de news:
om...
> As a low time pilot (<150 hrs) I have been alarmed at the number of
> recent incidents relating to getting trapped in clouds. In reading
> though some old posts on this forum, I have concluded that even though
> everyone has the best intention of never getting into clouds, it still
> can happen to even the most experienced pilots.
>
> I was encouraged to see that there were some viable options for getting
> out of the clouds alive, including the benign spiral, flying south by
> compas and using turn errors to maintain a heading with dive brakes,
> using GPS heading and groundspeed, and T&B indicators. From what was
> writtten, I don't consider a spin a safe option anymore, unless I was
> being pulled up into a large cell at 15 kts. So in an effort to keep
> my personal survival rate up to 100%, minimize pilot stress, and
> maximize my options, I am considering installing some type of bank
> angle indicator in the plane I fly (LS4a).
>
> I noticed the TruTrak spins up in 3 seconds, gives an acurate bank
> angle even if powered on in a turn, and uses relatively little power.
> Does anyone have an opinion about this instrument or others that would
> do the trick? My only criteria is that it helps me get out of the
> clouds alive.
>
> Thanks for any advice!
>

[Matt Herron Jr.]

Lots of good feedback for me. Thanks! I think (as suggested) that I
can stay clear of Cu. What concerns me is wave flying. As I
understand it, I could be well clear (upwind) of the clouds by my 2000
ft, and then within seconds, slightly wetter air comes in from upwind
and condenses, and suddenly everything goes white...


Stefan said:
"No, TruTrak does *not* give you a bank angle. It gives you a turn
rate.
Relying on an instrument without fully understandiing it is what I call

gambling. "

Would this instrument then not be useful for keeping the wings level in
clouds? I can imagine in uncoordinated flight, like a forward slip,
the wings would be banked, but the turnrate would be zero...

Matt

[Greg Arnold]

Matt Herron Jr. wrote:

> Stefan said:
> "No, TruTrak does *not* give you a bank angle. It gives you a turn
> rate.
> Relying on an instrument without fully understandiing it is what I call
>
> gambling. "
>
> Would this instrument then not be useful for keeping the wings level in
> clouds? I can imagine in uncoordinated flight, like a forward slip,
> the wings would be banked, but the turnrate would be zero...

I have a TruTrak, and it is technically true that it measures turning
rather than bank angle. However, given that you turn by banking the
glider, you would think it would do a good job of measuring bank angle.
And, in fact, it does.

>
> Matt
>

[Ramy Yanetz]

Same here. I am happy with my TruTrak although I never needed to use it and
hope I wouldn't. Just like my parachute. Treat it the same as last resort
and you will be safer. If you get one, I recommend before permanently
installing it to connect it to a 9v battery and go up in a 2 seater under
the hood with an instructor to get the feel of it. You'll find out, as I
did, that you can keep the wings level and even level off from a bank using
the TruTrak alone. Well worth the $450 IMHO.

Ramy

"Greg Arnold" > wrote in message
news:%Btdg.7205$KB.4000@fed1read08...
> Matt Herron Jr. wrote:
>
>> Stefan said:
>> "No, TruTrak does *not* give you a bank angle. It gives you a turn
>> rate.
>> Relying on an instrument without fully understandiing it is what I call
>>
>> gambling. "
>>
>> Would this instrument then not be useful for keeping the wings level in
>> clouds? I can imagine in uncoordinated flight, like a forward slip,
>> the wings would be banked, but the turnrate would be zero...
>
> I have a TruTrak, and it is technically true that it measures turning
> rather than bank angle. However, given that you turn by banking the
> glider, you would think it would do a good job of measuring bank angle.
> And, in fact, it does.
>
>>
>> Matt
>>

[Stefan]

Matt Herron Jr. schrieb:

> Would this instrument then not be useful for keeping the wings level in
> clouds?

Yes, of course you can keep the wings level with the TrueTrak... as long
as you remember that it's a turn indicator and not a bank indicator. I
just don't like its display. (For a reason, but this is my personal
opinion.)

You may ask: what's the fuss, as long as I fly coordinated, turn and
bank are related, aren't they?. Well, up to 45 degrees, yes. Bank
steeper, and the turn rate will diminish again, reaching zero at a
(theoretical) bank angle of 90 degrees. Now, bank angles of more than 45
degrees are not that uncommon in gliders, so you must understand this
behaviour and keep it in your mind. The interface of the TrueTrak is not
very helpful in doing so, as your original post ("TrueTrak gives a bank
angle") illustrates.

A last note: I've never actually flown with the TrueTrak, so I don't
know how fast it responds. As gliders are pretty slippery ships, any
turn indicator with less than instant response is useless, so check this.

Stefan

[Gary Evans]

Yep keeping the wings level thats the ticket and TruTrak
is a pretty inexpensive solution. It does respond very
quickly to bank, I mean turn rate (so confusing). Since
most sailplane users will not normally fly with it
on a big plus is its start up speed. Future buyers
should be aware that it doesn't come with a on/off
switch and be sure to ask for the special electrical
connector as you will have trouble finding one anywhere
else.

[David Starer]

I'd endorse everything that others have said about avoiding entering cloud
if your glider isn't suitably equipped and/or you aren't trained to fly in
IMC.

However the best intentions sometimes go astray and there's always the
chance you may inadvertently enter cloud. In these circumstances a good
standby plan is to gently open the airbrakes and - this is very important -
let go of the controls. So long as you are trimmed for circling most gliders
flown stick free with the brakes open will just adopt a gentle descending
turn at moderate speed and this will get you out of cloud - eventually. You
can try this, away from cloud of course, and doing so may give you
confidence that it will work if you ever need to do it for real.

David Starer


"Matt Herron Jr." > wrote in message
ups.com...
> As a low time pilot (<150 hrs) I have been alarmed at the number of
> recent incidents relating to getting trapped in clouds. In reading
> though some old posts on this forum, I have concluded that even though
> everyone has the best intention of never getting into clouds, it still
> can happen to even the most experienced pilots.
>
> I was encouraged to see that there were some viable options for getting
> out of the clouds alive, including the benign spiral, flying south by
> compas and using turn errors to maintain a heading with dive brakes,
> using GPS heading and groundspeed, and T&B indicators. From what was
> writtten, I don't consider a spin a safe option anymore, unless I was
> being pulled up into a large cell at 15 kts. So in an effort to keep
> my personal survival rate up to 100%, minimize pilot stress, and
> maximize my options, I am considering installing some type of bank
> angle indicator in the plane I fly (LS4a).
>
> I noticed the TruTrak spins up in 3 seconds, gives an acurate bank
> angle even if powered on in a turn, and uses relatively little power.
> Does anyone have an opinion about this instrument or others that would
> do the trick? My only criteria is that it helps me get out of the
> clouds alive.
>
> Thanks for any advice!
>

[Bill Daniels]

"Stefan" > wrote in message
...
> Matt Herron Jr. schrieb:
>
>> Would this instrument then not be useful for keeping the wings level in
>> clouds?
>
> Yes, of course you can keep the wings level with the TrueTrak... as long
> as you remember that it's a turn indicator and not a bank indicator. I
> just don't like its display. (For a reason, but this is my personal
> opinion.)
>
> You may ask: what's the fuss, as long as I fly coordinated, turn and bank
> are related, aren't they?. Well, up to 45 degrees, yes. Bank steeper, and
> the turn rate will diminish again, reaching zero at a (theoretical) bank
> angle of 90 degrees. Now, bank angles of more than 45 degrees are not that
> uncommon in gliders, so you must understand this behaviour and keep it in
> your mind. The interface of the TrueTrak is not very helpful in doing so,
> as your original post ("TrueTrak gives a bank angle") illustrates.
>
> A last note: I've never actually flown with the TrueTrak, so I don't know
> how fast it responds. As gliders are pretty slippery ships, any turn
> indicator with less than instant response is useless, so check this.
>
> Stefan

I agree with Stephan. The "Needle & Ball" turn indicator presentation is
far more honest aboout its limitations. In turbulence it's not unusual to
get bounced into a steep bank without any rate of turn at all in which case
a device that only indicates turn won't show anything until it's too late.
(Although the ball will drop toward the low wing.)

In smooth air, a turn indicator is fine for "Partial panel" flying but when
things get rough, a good attitude indicator is invaluable.

All instruments have their limitations and it's folly to try to use them
without an understanding of those limitations. That's one reason why an
instrument rating is particularly difficult to obtain. It's also why those
of us with an instrument ticket get nervous when we read of non- instrument
rated pilots wanting to install a turn indicator as a "safety device".

Until you are rated, current and equipped, stay out of clouds. Otherwise,
it's like playing Russian Roulette with an automatic.

Bill

[Gary Evans]

>Until you are rated, current and equipped, stay out
>of clouds. Otherwise, it's like playing Russian Roulette
with an automatic.
>
>Bill
>

Well there you go, problem solved.
Da, why didn't we think of that?

[Matt Herron Jr.]

Just to make sure I understand how this instrument would respond...

1) wings are level, TruTrak agrees
2) I hit turbulence and wings are thrown into 30 deg. bank with no yaw,
TruTrak reads level
3) 30 deg. bank causes glider to start turning. TruTrak catches up and
shows 30 deg. bank
4) in uncoordinated turns, TruTrak would show incorrect bank angle?
(not sure about this one)

Matt

[Eric Greenwell]

David Starer wrote:
> I'd endorse everything that others have said about avoiding entering cloud
> if your glider isn't suitably equipped and/or you aren't trained to fly in
> IMC.
>
> However the best intentions sometimes go astray and there's always the
> chance you may inadvertently enter cloud. In these circumstances a good
> standby plan is to gently open the airbrakes and - this is very important -
> let go of the controls. So long as you are trimmed for circling most gliders
> flown stick free with the brakes open will just adopt a gentle descending
> turn at moderate speed and this will get you out of cloud - eventually. You
> can try this, away from cloud of course, and doing so may give you
> confidence that it will work if you ever need to do it for real.

Be sure to include some "upsets" in your testing, as any cloud that can
suck you into the bottom will have plenty of turbulence to provide real
upsets. Some gliders will not settle back into a benign spiral after an
upset.

Wave clouds can supply some turbulence, too.
--
Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA

www.motorglider.org - Download "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane
Operation"

[Stefan]

Matt Herron Jr. schrieb:

> Just to make sure I understand how this instrument would respond...

4 x yes.

Stefan

[Eric Greenwell]

Stefan wrote:
> Matt Herron Jr. schrieb:
>
>> Just to make sure I understand how this instrument would respond...
>

Matt writes:

3) 30 deg. bank causes glider to start turning. TruTrak catches up and
shows 30 deg. bank.

Stefan replies:
> 4 x yes.

Is that really right? How does this instrument know the bank angle?
Using the calculator at

www.soarcsa.org/thinking_pages/soaring/turn_radius/turn_rad_knots.htm

I get these figures:

* 100 knots, 15 degrees bank, 2 minute turn indication
* 50 knots, 15 degree bank, 1 minute turn indication

So, for the same bank angle, won't the "bank indication" (which I think
is really turn rate indication) be different?

--
Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA

www.motorglider.org - Download "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane
Operation"

[Greg Arnold]

Eric Greenwell wrote:

> Matt writes:
>
> 3) 30 deg. bank causes glider to start turning. TruTrak catches up and
> shows 30 deg. bank.
>
> Stefan replies:
>> 4 x yes.
>
> Is that really right? How does this instrument know the bank angle?
> Using the calculator at
>
> www.soarcsa.org/thinking_pages/soaring/turn_radius/turn_rad_knots.htm
>
> I get these figures:
>
> * 100 knots, 15 degrees bank, 2 minute turn indication
> * 50 knots, 15 degree bank, 1 minute turn indication
>
> So, for the same bank angle, won't the "bank indication" (which I think
> is really turn rate indication) be different?

I don't know about the numbers, but my "1 minute turn" TruTrak seems to
exactly match the actual horizon at thermalling speeds.

[Gary Evans]

At 20:54 26 May 2006, Greg Arnold wrote:
>Eric Greenwell wrote:
>
>> Matt writes:
>>
>> 3) 30 deg. bank causes glider to start turning. TruTrak
>>catches up and
>> shows 30 deg. bank.
>>
>> Stefan replies:

>>> 4 x yes.
>>
>> Is that really right? How does this instrument know
>>the bank angle?
>> Using the calculator at
>>
>> www.soarcsa.org/thinking_pages/soaring/turn_radius/turn_rad_knots
>>>.htm
>>
>> I get these figures:
>>
>> * 100 knots, 15 degrees bank, 2 minute turn indication
>> * 50 knots, 15 degree bank, 1 minute turn indication
>>
>> So, for the same bank angle, won't the 'bank indication'
>>(which I think
>> is really turn rate indication) be different?
>
>I don't know about the numbers, but my '1 minute turn'
>TruTrak seems to
>exactly match the actual horizon at thermalling speeds.
>


The TruTrak T&B indicator simply shows when the glider
is turning which exactly what you want should you find
yourself in a cloud. You want to be able to select
a course and fly straight. On my glider it shows a
turn whenever the glider is turning which in most instances
is also when it is banked. The only time it can be
banked but not be turning is in a slight bank with
enough opposite rudder applied to fly in a straight
line but most glider pilots would know (should) whats
happening from the tell tail. In my glider in a bank
steeper than about 10 degrees it will turn regardless
of rudder position as there isn't enough rudder authority
to prevent it.
The purpose of using one in a cloud isn't to be able
to perform perfectly coordinated turns but to be able
to fly reasonably straight when you want to and this
instrument can do a lot to assist. Of course it won't
fix everything like if the turbulence is bouncing your
head against the canopy or a bird breaks through and
blinds you but nothing is perfect.

[bumper]

I have the TruTrak in my ASH26E, and am happy with it. As has been stated
before, if you don't have adequate instrument training, please get some
before relying on any of these devices. Much like the ballistic parachute in
the Cirrus aircraft - and that aircraft's relatively high accident rate,
having a safety device and then relying on it to save you after making poor
decisions, might be as bad as having no safety device at all.

bumper

"Matt Herron Jr." > wrote in message
ups.com...
> As a low time pilot (<150 hrs) I have been alarmed at the number of
> recent incidents relating to getting trapped in clouds. In reading
> though some old posts on this forum, I have concluded that even though
> everyone has the best intention of never getting into clouds, it still
> can happen to even the most experienced pilots.
>
> I was encouraged to see that there were some viable options for getting
> out of the clouds alive, including the benign spiral, flying south by
> compas and using turn errors to maintain a heading with dive brakes,
> using GPS heading and groundspeed, and T&B indicators. From what was
> writtten, I don't consider a spin a safe option anymore, unless I was
> being pulled up into a large cell at 15 kts. So in an effort to keep
> my personal survival rate up to 100%, minimize pilot stress, and
> maximize my options, I am considering installing some type of bank
> angle indicator in the plane I fly (LS4a).
>
> I noticed the TruTrak spins up in 3 seconds, gives an acurate bank
> angle even if powered on in a turn, and uses relatively little power.
> Does anyone have an opinion about this instrument or others that would
> do the trick? My only criteria is that it helps me get out of the
> clouds alive.
>
> Thanks for any advice!
>

[Mike Lindsay]

In article >,
bumper > writes
>I have the TruTrak in my ASH26E, and am happy with it. As has been stated
>before, if you don't have adequate instrument training, please get some
>before relying on any of these devices. Much like the ballistic parachute in
>the Cirrus aircraft - and that aircraft's relatively high accident rate,
>having a safety device and then relying on it to save you after making poor
>decisions, might be as bad as having no safety device at all.
>
>bumper
>
Is the instrument training you might get from a flying school in
any way comparable with using a cloud to climb a bit higher?

People make a BIG DEAL about getting IMC training before doing
any unpowered cloud flying, but surely, if you know your sailplane and
have proper instruments it is not too difficult to train yourself?

Of course I am not suggesting you go for a cu-nim, or even
something approaching freezing level, but a cu with about 1500 feet of
vertical development should be quite innocuous.

Fortunately we are still allowed to fly in cloud in the UK.

--
Mike Lindsay

[Chris Reed]

Mike Lindsay wrote:
> People make a BIG DEAL about getting IMC training before doing
> any unpowered cloud flying, but surely, if you know your sailplane and
> have proper instruments it is not too difficult to train yourself?
>
> Of course I am not suggesting you go for a cu-nim, or even
> something approaching freezing level, but a cu with about 1500 feet of
> vertical development should be quite innocuous.
>
> Fortunately we are still allowed to fly in cloud in the UK.
>
I've tried this in the UK in a cautious way by picking a small cloud
with weak lift, monitoring 130.4 and making calls, then climbing 500 ft
and opening airbrakes to descend. Instruments - turn-and slip + ASI.

My first attempt was all over the place, and after maybe 30 seconds I
had to open the airbrakes so that everything settled down and I gently
subsided from the cloud.

Later attempts have got me to the stage where I can climb reliably, but
can't straighten up to fly out of the side of the cloud. If I get the
wings level I start to lose control of speed,and by the time I get the
speed back under control I'm in a turn again.

I'm pretty sure I will eventually get this right, but it's going to take
a lot of practice.

Some points to note for the posters earlier in the thread who've never
tried this but are *sure* it would be easy enough to cope:

1. Cloud is completely disorientating, and flying on instruments alone
requires *intense* concentration. Even a 2 second lapse of attention
means you lose it and will have difficulty getting things under control.
If you don't practice the concentration, I doubt you could keep it up
for long.

2. The wool/tell-tale is useless because it immediately sticks to the
canopy, so you need a ball to recognise yaw.

3. Airspeed gets away from you very fast. I enter cloud trimmed for
thermalling speed and nominate a speed 15 kts above that - if I reach
that speed I open the airbrakes immediately (tip from various writers
including Derek Piggott).

4. Trim position has to be by feel if you change it while in cloud, and
this is I think my problem with straightening up.

If I found myself in cloud unintentionally I wouldn't even try to fly it
on instruments - open airbrakes, let go (assuming trim is for a sensible
speed), let the glider fly me out of it (I hope). Once stabilised I
might fire up the T&S and see what I could do, but delaying the
airbrakes even a couple of seconds on entry might be enough for disaster
to happen.

Flying in cloud really is *much* more difficult than you might think. If
anyone is fitting a bank/slip indicator "just in case", I reckon they
are likely to pull the wings off in a spiral dive if they don't practice
lots. I have the added luxury of a tailchute which, according to the
manual, will stop a spin or spiral dive and keep me below VNE, but even
so my nerves are jangling all the time in cloud. Those who have mastered
this have all my admiration for their skills.

[bumper]

Not only no, but heck no!

Instrument training is relatively intense, with lots to learn and practice,
including "unusual attitude" recovery with only partial panel (artificial
horizon or AI covered, with only Turn Coordinator). The TC is not as stable
in turbulence as a needle and ball (or TruTrac), as the gyro is at an angle
to give yaw info - - this is why many pilots prefer a needle and ball as to
the TC as back up.

Bottom line, without adequate training and practice and proper instruments,
if you are planning to go IMC, please remember that pilots with much more
experience than you and I have either died or had to save themselves by
bailing out when their spars snapped like twigs.

bumper

"Mike Lindsay" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> bumper > writes
>>I have the TruTrak in my ASH26E, and am happy with it. As has been stated
>>before, if you don't have adequate instrument training, please get some
>>before relying on any of these devices. Much like the ballistic parachute
>>in
>>the Cirrus aircraft - and that aircraft's relatively high accident rate,
>>having a safety device and then relying on it to save you after making
>>poor
>>decisions, might be as bad as having no safety device at all.
>>
>>bumper
>>
> Is the instrument training you might get from a flying school in
> any way comparable with using a cloud to climb a bit higher?
>
> People make a BIG DEAL about getting IMC training before doing
> any unpowered cloud flying, but surely, if you know your sailplane and
> have proper instruments it is not too difficult to train yourself?
>
> Of course I am not suggesting you go for a cu-nim, or even
> something approaching freezing level, but a cu with about 1500 feet of
> vertical development should be quite innocuous.
>
> Fortunately we are still allowed to fly in cloud in the UK.
>
> --
> Mike Lindsay
>

[Eric Greenwell]

Chris Reed wrote:
> Mike Lindsay wrote:
>> People make a BIG DEAL about getting IMC training before doing
>> any unpowered cloud flying, but surely, if you know your sailplane and
>> have proper instruments it is not too difficult to train yourself?
>>
>> Of course I am not suggesting you go for a cu-nim, or even
>> something approaching freezing level, but a cu with about 1500 feet of
>> vertical development should be quite innocuous.
>> Fortunately we are still allowed to fly in cloud in
>> the UK.
> I've tried this in the UK in a cautious way by picking a small cloud
> with weak lift, monitoring 130.4 and making calls, then climbing 500 ft
> and opening airbrakes to descend. Instruments - turn-and slip + ASI.
>
> My first attempt was all over the place, and after maybe 30 seconds I
> had to open the airbrakes so that everything settled down and I gently
> subsided from the cloud.
>
> Later attempts have got me to the stage where I can climb reliably, but
> can't straighten up to fly out of the side of the cloud. If I get the
> wings level I start to lose control of speed,and by the time I get the
> speed back under control I'm in a turn again.
>
> I'm pretty sure I will eventually get this right, but it's going to take
> a lot of practice.
>
> Some points to note for the posters earlier in the thread who've never
> tried this but are *sure* it would be easy enough to cope:
>
> 1. Cloud is completely disorientating, and flying on instruments alone
> requires *intense* concentration. Even a 2 second lapse of attention
> means you lose it and will have difficulty getting things under control.
> If you don't practice the concentration, I doubt you could keep it up
> for long.
>
> 2. The wool/tell-tale is useless because it immediately sticks to the
> canopy, so you need a ball to recognise yaw.
>
> 3. Airspeed gets away from you very fast. I enter cloud trimmed for
> thermalling speed and nominate a speed 15 kts above that - if I reach
> that speed I open the airbrakes immediately (tip from various writers
> including Derek Piggott).
>
> 4. Trim position has to be by feel if you change it while in cloud, and
> this is I think my problem with straightening up.
>
> If I found myself in cloud unintentionally I wouldn't even try to fly it
> on instruments - open airbrakes, let go (assuming trim is for a sensible
> speed), let the glider fly me out of it (I hope). Once stabilised I
> might fire up the T&S and see what I could do, but delaying the
> airbrakes even a couple of seconds on entry might be enough for disaster
> to happen.
>
> Flying in cloud really is *much* more difficult than you might think. If
> anyone is fitting a bank/slip indicator "just in case", I reckon they
> are likely to pull the wings off in a spiral dive if they don't practice
> lots. I have the added luxury of a tailchute which, according to the
> manual, will stop a spin or spiral dive and keep me below VNE, but even
> so my nerves are jangling all the time in cloud. Those who have mastered
> this have all my admiration for their skills.

And remember, Chris is talking about intentionally entering a cloud at
thermalling speed, and in relatively smooth air, not the turbulence
often associated with 10+ knot lift. Imagine how much more difficult it
would be for the pilot unintentionally sucked into a cloud, and likely
going 90-100 knots as he enters. My advice to the original poster
continues to be prevention is a far better tactic than a T&B, but if he
wants to build some blind-flying skills with an instructor - go for it!
Just don't imagine you can successfully use a T&B otherwise if you are
ever sucked into a cloud.

For the inexperienced (with a T&B) pilot caught above clouds while wave
flying, a T&B might actually work out: usually, the pilot has some
warning, he is already flying straight and level, and plans to keep it
that way. He still needs to practice before hand.
--
Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA

www.motorglider.org - Download "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane
Operation"

[Mike Lindsay]

In article >, Eric Greenwell
> writes
>Chris Reed wrote:
>> Mike Lindsay wrote:
>>> People make a BIG DEAL about getting IMC training before doing
>>> any unpowered cloud flying, but surely, if you know your sailplane and
>>> have proper instruments it is not too difficult to train yourself?
>>>
>>> Of course I am not suggesting you go for a cu-nim, or even
>>> something approaching freezing level, but a cu with about 1500 feet of
>>> vertical development should be quite innocuous.
>>> Fortunately we are still allowed to fly in cloud in
>>> the UK.
>> I've tried this in the UK in a cautious way by picking a small cloud
>> with weak lift, monitoring 130.4 and making calls, then climbing 500 ft
>> and opening airbrakes to descend. Instruments - turn-and slip + ASI.
>>
>> My first attempt was all over the place, and after maybe 30 seconds I
>> had to open the airbrakes so that everything settled down and I gently
>> subsided from the cloud.
>>
>> Later attempts have got me to the stage where I can climb reliably, but
>> can't straighten up to fly out of the side of the cloud. If I get the
>> wings level I start to lose control of speed,and by the time I get the
>> speed back under control I'm in a turn again.
>>
>> I'm pretty sure I will eventually get this right, but it's going to take
>> a lot of practice.
>>
>> Some points to note for the posters earlier in the thread who've never
>> tried this but are *sure* it would be easy enough to cope:
>>
>> 1. Cloud is completely disorientating, and flying on instruments alone
>> requires *intense* concentration. Even a 2 second lapse of attention
>> means you lose it and will have difficulty getting things under control.
>> If you don't practice the concentration, I doubt you could keep it up
>> for long.
>>
>> 2. The wool/tell-tale is useless because it immediately sticks to the
>> canopy, so you need a ball to recognise yaw.
>>
>> 3. Airspeed gets away from you very fast. I enter cloud trimmed for
>> thermalling speed and nominate a speed 15 kts above that - if I reach
>> that speed I open the airbrakes immediately (tip from various writers
>> including Derek Piggott).
>>
>> 4. Trim position has to be by feel if you change it while in cloud, and
>> this is I think my problem with straightening up.
>>
>> If I found myself in cloud unintentionally I wouldn't even try to fly it
>> on instruments - open airbrakes, let go (assuming trim is for a sensible
>> speed), let the glider fly me out of it (I hope). Once stabilised I
>> might fire up the T&S and see what I could do, but delaying the
>> airbrakes even a couple of seconds on entry might be enough for disaster
>> to happen.
>>
>> Flying in cloud really is *much* more difficult than you might think. If
>> anyone is fitting a bank/slip indicator "just in case", I reckon they
>> are likely to pull the wings off in a spiral dive if they don't practice
>> lots. I have the added luxury of a tailchute which, according to the
>> manual, will stop a spin or spiral dive and keep me below VNE, but even
>> so my nerves are jangling all the time in cloud. Those who have mastered
>> this have all my admiration for their skills.
>
>And remember, Chris is talking about intentionally entering a cloud at
>thermalling speed, and in relatively smooth air, not the turbulence
>often associated with 10+ knot lift. Imagine how much more difficult it
>would be for the pilot unintentionally sucked into a cloud, and likely
>going 90-100 knots as he enters. My advice to the original poster
>continues to be prevention is a far better tactic than a T&B, but if he
>wants to build some blind-flying skills with an instructor - go for it!
>Just don't imagine you can successfully use a T&B otherwise if you are
>ever sucked into a cloud.
>
>For the inexperienced (with a T&B) pilot caught above clouds while wave
>flying, a T&B might actually work out: usually, the pilot has some
>warning, he is already flying straight and level, and plans to keep it
>that way. He still needs to practice before hand.

If you fly where there are 10 knotters regularly, you probably don't
need to cloud fly. Lots of gliders this side has A/Hs which makes life a
bit easier, although you do have to believe the instruments, not your
ears, which might well be telling you something different, especially
when you roll out of your thermal turn.
--
Mike Lindsay

[Mike Lindsay]

In article >,
bumper > writes
>Not only no, but heck no!
>
>Instrument training is relatively intense, with lots to learn and practice,
>including "unusual attitude" recovery with only partial panel (artificial
>horizon or AI covered, with only Turn Coordinator). The TC is not as stable
>in turbulence as a needle and ball (or TruTrac), as the gyro is at an angle
>to give yaw info - - this is why many pilots prefer a needle and ball as to
>the TC as back up.
>
>Bottom line, without adequate training and practice and proper instruments,
>if you are planning to go IMC, please remember that pilots with much more
>experience than you and I have either died or had to save themselves by
>bailing out when their spars snapped like twigs.
>
>bumper
>
So, what would you regard as 'proper instruments'?
--
Mike Lindsay

[Gary Evans]

I have culled the collective wisdom in this thread
to save any new followers time.

RE: Use of Trutrak T&B indicator for emergency cloud
flying

1) To fly in a cloud means certain death or worse.
2) You should fly in clouds for practice.
3) Special training is required to survive a cloud
flight.
4) You can train yourself.
5) Special instruments are necessary for cloud flight.
6) Instruments are worthless in a cloud.

Following RAS for years this seems to be a fairly typical
example of group guidance. The truth I suspect lies
somewhere between the lines. Interesting to read however.

[William Jones]

I'll tell you what I think to add to the confusion.

I believe if you want to avoid clouds that you can do so with foresight:

If conditions are very strong indeed, don't go up to cloudbase and if you
hit extreme lift, turn away and use full spoiler and highish speed to keep
away.

If you have messed up and end up in cloud then get as a minimum a T&S. A
cheap refurbished unit will be fine. Practise out of cloud and you will see
you can use it to roughly fly straight very easily, you will be able to get
out of cloud by flying straight with full spoilers.

If you want to fly in cloud and enjoy it, as I do, then get a horizon. It
is pretty easy to fly on one and an order of magnitude easier than using a
T&S for thermalling. A T&S gives you turn rate only but as we know, bank
angle at a given speed is what gives you turn rate and that is what is
important to monitor. The horizon is better at this than the often
invisible real horizon out of cloud and I find I can fly more accurately
with it in cloud than out of cloud. I use a T&S as a back up for cloud
flying and a GPS to monitor headings to note the best bit of lift and to
reposition in the cloud. Also to come out on the right heading. The GPS is
a back up turn indicator too.


"Gary Evans" > wrote in message
...
> I have culled the collective wisdom in this thread
> to save any new followers time.
>
> RE: Use of Trutrak T&B indicator for emergency cloud
> flying
>
> 1) To fly in a cloud means certain death or worse.
> 2) You should fly in clouds for practice.
> 3) Special training is required to survive a cloud
> flight.
> 4) You can train yourself.
> 5) Special instruments are necessary for cloud flight.
> 6) Instruments are worthless in a cloud.
>
> Following RAS for years this seems to be a fairly typical
> example of group guidance. The truth I suspect lies
> somewhere between the lines. Interesting to read however.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

[Chris Reed]

Gary Evans wrote:
> I have culled the collective wisdom in this thread
> to save any new followers time.
>
> RE: Use of Trutrak T&B indicator for emergency cloud
> flying
>
I'd say close but not quite accurate:

> 1) To fly in a cloud means certain death or worse.

Clearly not, because pilots do it and survive. I'd say, to fly in cloud
without proper planning, instruments and knowledge of what you're doing
is very risky indeed. However, letting down through a cloud layer via a
benign spiral (if you know there's plenty of clear air beneath) is
likely to be comparatively low risk.

> 2) You should fly in clouds for practice.

For intentional cloud flying, my limited experience and more extensive
reading tells me you need to keep in practice. Unintentional entry I
wouldn't practice for, but I'd have an emergency plan (airbrakes out,
trim back to best L/D or thereabouts, and don't mess with the controls).

Many glider pilots can't practice because cloud flying is generally
illegal in their countries.

> 3) Special training is required to survive a cloud
> flight.

Not to survive (see 2 above), but to fly intentionally and successfully
in cloud you need either training or an effective self-teaching
programme (see next point).

> 4) You can train yourself.

In theory you can - my self-training programme is derived from the
writings of pilots, some of whom who taught themselves. I can't say yet
whether it's a successful programme, or whether I'll carry on cloud
flying if I do manage to teach myself successfully. The only thing I'm
comfortable about is that the way I'm approaching this is not
excessively risky.

> 5) Special instruments are necessary for cloud flight.

Definitely. The acknowledged minimum is bank indicator (e.g. T&S) and
ASI. From previous posts, Tru-Trak is not a true bank indicator, which
means that its limitations need to be understood when using it.

An artificial horizon is clearly easier because it gives you bank and
pitch simultaneously. However, as the earlier poster who actually uses
one points out, you need a T&S as backup in case the horizon fails. This
is why I'm starting with T&S/ASI alone - the backup's no good to me if I
can't use it. My reading suggests that relying on a horizon alone (which
is effectively what you're doing, even if you have a T&S fitted, if you
can't use it) is riskier than I care for.

> 6) Instruments are worthless in a cloud.
>
Definitely no, if you mean horizon/T&S/horizon. Other instruments
(except, I understand, a Bohli compass in the hands of an expert) are
little or no use for maintaining control in cloud.

> Following RAS for years this seems to be a fairly typical
> example of group guidance. The truth I suspect lies
> somewhere between the lines. Interesting to read however.
>
Like all RAS postings, you get a mix of experience and hearsay. Looking
back over the thread, only four posters (including me) stated they had
any experience of flying in cloud, though from the comments of some of
the others they might also have done this.

I tend to give rather more weight to postings which come from the
pilot's own experience, which is as good a way as any other of sorting
the wheat from the chaff.

My advice to the original poster, from someone with approximately 1 more
hour/6 flights in total cloud flying than he has, is to save his money
on the Tru-Trak. Practice the benign spiral instead, as you never intend
to fly in cloud intentionally. My hour has taken me to the stage where I
am not completely out of control in cloud, but definitely not fully in
control. All this in the easiest of cloud - intentional entry, gentle
lift, little turbulence. Caught out by a wave gap closing does not
strike me as the ideal conditions to begin your own training programme.

[Keith Morgan]

At 21:30 27 May 2006, Gary Evans wrote:>I have culled
>the collective wisdom in this thread>to save any new
>followers time.>>RE: Use of Trutrak T&B indicator for
>>emergency cloud>flying>>1) To fly in a cloud means certain
>>>death or worse.>2) You should fly in clouds for practice.>3)
>>Special training is required to survive a cloud>flight.>4)
>>You can train yourself.>5) Special instruments are necessary
>for cloud flight.>6) Instruments are worthless in a
>cloud.Gary, you missed out no. 77) Any attempt a levity
will be rewarded with a lengthy and very serious lecture.
You have been warned!

[Keith Morgan]

At 21:30 27 May 2006, Gary Evans wrote:>I have culled
>the collective wisdom in this thread>to save any new
>followers time.>>RE: Use of Trutrak T&B indicator for
>>emergency cloud>flying>>1) To fly in a cloud means certain
>>>death or worse.>2) You should fly in clouds for practice.>3)
>>Special training is required to survive a cloud>flight.>4)
>>You can train yourself.>5) Special instruments are necessary
>for cloud flight.>6) Instruments are worthless in a
>cloud.Gary, you missed out no. 77) Any attempt a levity
will be rewarded with a lengthy and very serious lecture.
You have been warned!

[Stefan]

Chris Reed schrieb:

> Many glider pilots can't practice because cloud flying is generally
> illegal in their countries.

In most countries, it's prefectly legal. France is an exception, also
Spain and Italy, if I recall correctly. It's just not too common in most
countries.

>> 4) You can train yourself.

For each and every activity, there has always been at least one person
who had to train himself. It's just the survival rate which was
sometimes less than desired, though.

> An artificial horizon is clearly easier because it gives you bank and
> pitch simultaneously. However, as the earlier poster who actually uses
> one points out, you need a T&S as backup in case the horizon fails.

The T&S is more than a backup. It's absolutely indispesable for cross
reference.

Each artificial horizon has some drift over time (even if it doesn't
tumble). (Only for those multi thousand dollar high tech ring laser
systems drift can be neglected.) And then, these (mechanical) horizons
were typically built for straight and level flight, not for tight
circling in a bumpy cloud. Stay 15 minutes in such a cloud, which is a
reasonable time, and most horizons will show more or less wrong bank.
Only the T&S will *always* show the correct data, due to the
construction principle (as long as it's not broken, of course).

> Definitely no, if you mean horizon/T&S/horizon. Other instruments
> (except, I understand, a Bohli compass in the hands of an expert) are
> little or no use for maintaining control in cloud.

Definitely no. Of course you can cloud fly with minimal instruments, but
it's the redundancy of a full panel (and you being able to use this
redundancy) which makes it safe. And of course you need a compass (plain
old whisky works fine, if you know how to interpret it) to leave the
cloud in the desired direction.

Stefan

[bumper]

In my powered aircraft I have full IFR panels (AI, HSI or DG, TC etc). In my
glider I have a TruTrac and Garmin 196 or 396 (XM weather is sure nice, but
that sucker uses the power).

Unlike Stefan, I love the TruTrac. It's simulated horizon tracks the real
horizon nicely up to about a 45 degree bank or so. I ordered it with the
glider recommended 1 minute turn rate. I find it easier to fly than the
needle and ball I had in my previous glider.

bumper
"Mike Lindsay" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> bumper > writes
>>Not only no, but heck no!
>>
>>Instrument training is relatively intense, with lots to learn and
>>practice,
>>including "unusual attitude" recovery with only partial panel (artificial
>>horizon or AI covered, with only Turn Coordinator). The TC is not as
>>stable
>>in turbulence as a needle and ball (or TruTrac), as the gyro is at an
>>angle
>>to give yaw info - - this is why many pilots prefer a needle and ball as
>>to
>>the TC as back up.
>>
>>Bottom line, without adequate training and practice and proper
>>instruments,
>>if you are planning to go IMC, please remember that pilots with much more
>>experience than you and I have either died or had to save themselves by
>>bailing out when their spars snapped like twigs.
>>
>>bumper
>>
> So, what would you regard as 'proper instruments'?
> --
> Mike Lindsay

[Markus[_1_]]

Does anyone have any experience with the MGL Attitude & Heading
Reference System?

http://www.mglavionics.co.za/singles.html

It looks interesting, Craggy Aero is selling this one along with the
TruTrack system (http://www.craggyaero.com/solidstate.htm).

Markus