Memorial Day USA

[Jim Culp]

Honor our Combatants of United States of America
and
The Confederate States of America

this

Memorial Day.

Let us not forget them.

God Bless America
and
the men and women
who serve or served
or
who kept the home front.

America,

Land of the Free



Dancing on clouds,

Keep it up!

Jim Culp USA

[Mike the Strike]

When I lived in Georgia, they celebrated Memorial Day on a different
date than the "Yankee" one.

Mike

[Mike the Strike]

Quote:

The Confederate Memorial Day is observed on April 26 in Alabama,
Florida, Georgia, and Mississippi; on May 10 in North Carolina and
South Carolina; on May 30 in Virginia; and on June 3 in Kentucky,
Louisiana, and Tennessee.

It also inspired the National Memorial Day.

Mike

[Shawn]

Mike the Strike wrote:
> When I lived in Georgia, they celebrated Memorial Day on a different
> date than the "Yankee" one.

Appropriate, seeing as that enemy killed more US soldiers than any other.

Shawn

[Jack]

Quote: Jim,
This is the attitude that makes the USA the most hated and looked down
upon country in the world right now. Too bad we still have so many in
this country that don't understand humility.

Shawn,

What greater humility exists? Laying your life down for the freedom of
your countrymen, as well as the freedom of the French (who hate us),
the British ( who mostly hate us) the East Germans (who hate us), the
Koreans, Chinese, and Vietnamese (who hate us), The Iraquis, (who
definitely hate us.) All of them hate us until they come over here to
our land of opportunity. Ask me if I give a crap about who hates us.
I'm pretty sick of them, too. Fight your own wars or give the fallen
American soldier his due respect. All of Europe would be spending marks
and speaking German right now if not for American GIs. For that matter,
China would be speaking Japanese. Let's not forget that America was
trying it's best to stay out of that mess and all the other wars it has
lead us to. It's a little bit like crying around about America being
the only country that used a nuclear weapon. I'm not sure where you
are, but had we not, your father might not have been around, because he
would have been one of the million or so projected casualties of the
Japanese invasion, that never took place.

On a day like Memorial Day, PLEASE take your pinko-commie politics and
stick them squarely where the sun don't shine. You need a dose of
humility, yourself. For your info, I almost got my ass shot off in
Vietnam and I have no tolerance for people like you on Memorial Day.
And by the way, I don't think anyone really looks DOWN on us.
Misinformed people like you that don't know history are bound to repeat
it. I pray that you're not an American, that I almost died for. If you
are, and you are so upset about the rest of the jealous world hating
us, why not move out of the country and join them. My son's in Iraq
right now. I certainly wouldn't trade his life for yours.

In other words... **** up a rope.

Jim Culp, THANK YOU!

Jack Womack

[Shawn]

Jack wrote:

Too bad you didn't take the mortar round that killed my father in
Vietnam you meth smoking white trash spawn of those racist, seditious
scum that killed so many Americans in the civil war.
Dirt ball, all I meant was that fungus such as yourself shouldn't be
soiling the memory of fine Americans by celebrating the traitorous
behavior of those dogs that fought for their inability to perform an
honest days work, requiring them to steal and subjugate another race on
Memorial Day.
Have a nice Memorial Day **** for Brains.

Shawn

[Jack]

Well,

I've read and reread what you wrote and I didn't get anything like what
you stated above out of it. What I got was that your heart bleads for
our enemies. Also, I took that you meant that we shouldn't honor our
war dead on Memorial Day. You jumped Jim Culp for doing just that,
telling him he needed humility.

Besides, during the Civil War, my ancestors were not Confederates. I am
not a racist, nor a drug addict, nor am I white trash. Unfortunately, I
must have hit the mark pretty close for you to be so riled up. If in
fact, your father was killed by a mortar round in Viet Nam, I am sorry
for you. On Monday, I'll be honoring him and thousands of others. But
if that's true, why would you trample on Memorial Day and dishonor his
memory. That IS what the day is about... after all. So, who really has
**** for brains?

Steal and subjugate another race? What planet are you on? Never mind...
stay there.

Jack Womack

[Shawn]

Jack wrote:
> Well,
>
> I've read and reread what you wrote and I didn't get anything like what
> you stated above out of it. What I got was that your heart bleads for
> our enemies. Also, I took that you meant that we shouldn't honor our
> war dead on Memorial Day. You jumped Jim Culp for doing just that,
> telling him he needed humility.

I didn't respond to Jim's message, I had no problem with it.

> Besides, during the Civil War, my ancestors were not Confederates.

Then what are you smoking?


I am
> not a racist, nor a drug addict, nor am I white trash. Unfortunately, I
> must have hit the mark pretty close for you to be so riled up. If in
> fact, your father was killed by a mortar round in Viet Nam, I am sorry
> for you. On Monday, I'll be honoring him and thousands of others. But
> if that's true, why would you trample on Memorial Day and dishonor his
> memory. That IS what the day is about... after all. So, who really has
> **** for brains?
>
> Steal and subjugate another race? What planet are you on? Never mind...
> stay there.
>
> Jack Womack
>
Riled up? Yes Jack. Here is *All* I wrote regarding the subject



start quote of *complete* message


Mike the Strike wrote:

> When I lived in Georgia, they celebrated Memorial Day on a different
> date than the "Yankee" one.


Appropriate, seeing as that enemy killed more US soldiers than any other.

Shawn

end quote of *complete* message



So you try to rip me a new one over this? In fact my father may have
been killed by rocket or mortar. Viet Cong were using both in their
attack on Long Binh that day.
For reference:
Panel 32W, Row 094

Shawn

[Shawn]

Jack wrote:

Too bad you didn't take the mortar round that killed my father in
Vietnam you meth smoking white trash spawn of those racist, seditious
scum that killed so many Americans in the civil war.
Dirt ball, all I meant was that fungus such as yourself shouldn't be
soiling the memory of fine Americans by celebrating the traitorous
behavior of those dogs that fought for their inability to perform an
honest days work, requiring them to steal and subjugate another race, on
Memorial Day.
Have a nice Memorial Day **** for Brains.

Shawn

[Mark628CA]

Shawn, and all you wannabe shawns-

Please never contact me for any products or services. I will refuse
you, as you are ungrateful assholes.

Mark Mocho

[309]

Uh folks???

It seems like there was a misunderstanding...unfortunate as it may be,
a big one.

And I know the quote was issue from another nation, but can we get back
to the point:

Never has so much been owed by so many to so few.

That phrase applies to OUR servicemen, too. I challenge you all to
show your thanks to those that have served, those that are serving.

While I will get together with friends on Memorial Day, we will ALL be
thanful to and hoist one for those who served, and especially those who
made the ultimate sacrifice, that we may enjoy our freedom, which is
NOT free, and continue to be a most generous nation, that we can give
billions to those less fortunate and those impacted by catastrophe.

Yes, it is sad that the most generous nation on Earth is also "the most
hated," but what I find more sad is that we "brothers," those who have
tasted flight, soared like eagles and (as Da Vinci put it), are forever
longing to return to the sky -- can become this trite with one another.

Calling the Confederate States an "enemy" is, in my mind, like
referring to a cancer as an invader. While we don't agree, we're still
shooting our brothers -- so much more the tragedy. By a twist of fate,
I was born north of the Mason-Dixon line, educated south of the line,
and settled as far away from that line as possilble. I've worked in
the north, the south, the east and the west. I arrive honest and
humble, and choose to do business with those that are honest -- I have
been blessed with a fantastic career, replete with enjoyable
opportunities meeting with people of all accents, colors and beliefs.
We are all ALLOWED opportunities by the actions of "the few," as
Winston Churchill referred to them...and from a service from a recently
deceased serviceman: "Do not squander the time given to you by God or
the freedom preserved by this Marine's life."

Shawn, I am sorry for your loss and am grateful that people like your
father have served, yet very sorrowful that they suffered and
sacrificed. You and your family will be in the thoughts and prayers of
my family, especially this memorial day weekend.

Jim and Jack, thanks for the thoughts, thanks for provoking others to
think and a hearty thank you to those who have served and sacrificed so
that we may do more than just soar, we may freely express our opinions
-- a luxury that not all on this planet can enjoy.

-Pete
#309

[Jack]

My mistake, I attributed TTaylor's comments to Shawn. I can understand
why he is upset. I would be too. My apologies to Shawn... but I wasn't
smoking anything... either. Even though my angry statements were
misdirected, I stand by them, with the exception of their direction.

[Sarah]

Well said, Pete. Thanks for speaking "my mind", and I hope, the silent
majority's.

Peace,
Sarah

[Shawn]

Mark628CA wrote:
> Shawn, and all you wannabe shawns-
>
> Please never contact me for any products or services. I will refuse
> you, as you are ungrateful assholes.

Fine. But what do I owe the decedents of Confederate soldiers?

Shawn

[Shawn]

309 wrote:
> Uh folks???
>
> It seems like there was a misunderstanding...unfortunate as it may be,
> a big one.
>
> And I know the quote was issue from another nation, but can we get back
> to the point:
>
> Never has so much been owed by so many to so few.
>
> That phrase applies to OUR servicemen, too. I challenge you all to
> show your thanks to those that have served, those that are serving.
>
> While I will get together with friends on Memorial Day, we will ALL be
> thanful to and hoist one for those who served, and especially those who
> made the ultimate sacrifice, that we may enjoy our freedom, which is
> NOT free, and continue to be a most generous nation, that we can give
> billions to those less fortunate and those impacted by catastrophe.
>
> Yes, it is sad that the most generous nation on Earth is also "the most
> hated," but what I find more sad is that we "brothers," those who have
> tasted flight, soared like eagles and (as Da Vinci put it), are forever
> longing to return to the sky -- can become this trite with one another.
>
> Calling the Confederate States an "enemy" is, in my mind, like
> referring to a cancer as an invader. While we don't agree, we're still
> shooting our brothers -- so much more the tragedy. By a twist of fate,
> I was born north of the Mason-Dixon line, educated south of the line,
> and settled as far away from that line as possilble. I've worked in
> the north, the south, the east and the west. I arrive honest and
> humble, and choose to do business with those that are honest -- I have
> been blessed with a fantastic career, replete with enjoyable
> opportunities meeting with people of all accents, colors and beliefs.
> We are all ALLOWED opportunities by the actions of "the few," as
> Winston Churchill referred to them...and from a service from a recently
> deceased serviceman: "Do not squander the time given to you by God or
> the freedom preserved by this Marine's life."
>
> Shawn, I am sorry for your loss and am grateful that people like your
> father have served, yet very sorrowful that they suffered and
> sacrificed. You and your family will be in the thoughts and prayers of
> my family, especially this memorial day weekend.
>
> Jim and Jack, thanks for the thoughts, thanks for provoking others to
> think and a hearty thank you to those who have served and sacrificed so
> that we may do more than just soar, we may freely express our opinions
> -- a luxury that not all on this planet can enjoy.
>
> -Pete
> #309
>
Thank you Pete.

Shawn

[Shawn]

Jack wrote:
> My mistake, I attributed TTaylor's comments to Shawn. I can understand
> why he is upset. I would be too. My apologies to Shawn... but I wasn't
> smoking anything... either. Even though my angry statements were
> misdirected, I stand by them, with the exception of their direction.

Yeah I finally pulled my head out of my ass and figured out the misquoting.
Stand by your statements Jack. Lots of our friends and relatives (and
selves in your case) fought for that right and privilege.
My apologies as well.
Have a good memorial day (that doesn't sound quite right, but I suspect
you understand the sentiment).

Shawn

[Robert Hart]

Jim Culp wrote:

> America,
>
> Land of the Free

But please remember that there are *other* free countries out there past
the big blue bits on the map either side of North America.

--
Robert Hart
+61 (0)438 385 533 http://www.hart.wattle.id.au

[Derek Copeland]

Actually Jack, most Europeans don't hate or look down
on the USA at all. We actually admire your culture
and enterprise.

However we dislike your President and we hate his decision
to invade Iraq, in defiance of the United Nations and
for that matter common sense. If the most powerful
country in the World won't obey the rule of law, why
should any other state? I am only sorry the my country,
the United Kingdom, got involved, despite the biggest
protest march ever against this on the streets of London,
which included my good self.

I'm sorry, but I find myself cheering every time a
US soldier gets killed in Iraq. This is obviously not
at a personal level, so much as it serves your country
right! Blame your idiotic President and Donald Rumsfeld;
not the Iraqis who are only fighting to free their
own country. You value freedom, so why shouldn't they?

At the end of the day, what possible threat was Iraq
to the USA? As far as I can see, this was a revenge
attack for the World Trade Centre attrocity, which
was probably nothing to do with Iraq.

Derek C

At 02:24 27 May 2006, Jack wrote:
>Quote: Jim,
>This is the attitude that makes the USA the most hated
>and looked down
>upon country in the world right now. Too bad we still
>have so many in
>this country that don't understand humility.
>
>Shawn,
>
>What greater humility exists? Laying your life down
>for the freedom of
>your countrymen, as well as the freedom of the French
>(who hate us),
>the British ( who mostly hate us) the East Germans
>(who hate us), the
>Koreans, Chinese, and Vietnamese (who hate us), The
>Iraquis, (who
>definitely hate us.) All of them hate us until they
>come over here to
>our land of opportunity. Ask me if I give a crap about
>who hates us.
>I'm pretty sick of them, too. Fight your own wars or
>give the fallen
>American soldier his due respect. All of Europe would
>be spending marks
>and speaking German right now if not for American GIs.
>For that matter,
>China would be speaking Japanese. Let's not forget
>that America was
>trying it's best to stay out of that mess and all the
>other wars it has
>lead us to. It's a little bit like crying around about
>America being
>the only country that used a nuclear weapon. I'm not
>sure where you
>are, but had we not, your father might not have been
>around, because he
>would have been one of the million or so projected
>casualties of the
>Japanese invasion, that never took place.
>
>On a day like Memorial Day, PLEASE take your pinko-commie
>politics and
>stick them squarely where the sun don't shine. You
>need a dose of
>humility, yourself. For your info, I almost got my
>ass shot off in
>Vietnam and I have no tolerance for people like you
>on Memorial Day.
>And by the way, I don't think anyone really looks DOWN
>on us.
>Misinformed people like you that don't know history
>are bound to repeat
>it. I pray that you're not an American, that I almost
>died for. If you
>are, and you are so upset about the rest of the jealous
>world hating
>us, why not move out of the country and join them.
>My son's in Iraq
>right now. I certainly wouldn't trade his life for
>yours.
>
>In other words... **** up a rope.
>
>Jim Culp, THANK YOU!
>
>Jack Womack
>
>

[Stefan]

Derek Copeland schrieb:

> Blame your idiotic President

Rather blame all those who elected him. And, worse yet, re-elected him 4
years later. But what has all this to do with soaring?

Stefan

[Derek Copeland]

Hi Stefan

Nothing whatsoever to do with soaring, except that
I suspect that none is taking place in Iraq right now.
Does anyone know if it was allowed under Saddam Hussain's
regime?

I guess from your e-mail address that you are Swiss.
If so your country has remained committedly neutral
during all recent wars, beyond defending its own borders,
and has benefitted greatly as a result. Hardly anybody
hates the Swiss, apart from certain tax raising government
departments in other countries that is. Perhaps the
USA could learn from this!

Derek C


At 08:12 29 May 2006, Stefan wrote:
>Derek Copeland schrieb:
>
>> Blame your idiotic President
>
>Rather blame all those who elected him. And, worse
>yet, re-elected him 4
>years later. But what has all this to do with soaring?
>

[Hammermill]

One thing people like Derek will never understand is that Americans
have a history of fighting FOR freedom and liberty. Many of our war
dead died fighting and killing the likes of Derek Copeland and his
ancestors. Much of our history and the history of many people around
the world who fought for freedom had to make that fight against the
British. So the history of Derek and his ancestors is one of fighting
against liberty, against freedom. While Dereks father fought in WWII,
he fought as much to avoid having to speak German as for freedom. I
doubt that Derek could be relied upon to even agree to let others do
the fighting for him if the need ever arises. If it does and the cause
is for freedom and for liberty there will be a lot of Americans and
many Brits doing the fighting and Derek and his friends will be sitting
in a prissy little pub sniping about the beastly Americans and how they
should pay attention to him. I'll bet Derek looks good in yellow.

Derek Copeland wrote:
" I'm sorry, but I find myself cheering every time a
> US soldier gets killed in Iraq." This is obviously not
> at a personal level, so much as it serves your country
> right! Blame your idiotic President and Donald Rumsfeld;
> not the Iraqis who are only fighting to free their
> own country. You value freedom, so why shouldn't they?
> Derek C

May 29, 2006
The Last Best Hope on Earth
By William J. Bennett

Today, our country celebrates Memorial Day. Originally called
"Decoration Day," the holiday started spontaneously enough in 1866,
when a drugstore owner in Waterloo, NY sought to honor those who died
in the recent Civil War. Townspeople joined Henry Welles' cause to
commemorate the fallen and they placed "flowers, wreaths and crosses on
the graves of the Northern soldiers in the [Waterloo] cemetery." They
decorated the graves. In short order, others joined around the country
and by 1868, according to the History Channel: "Children read poems and
sang civil war songs and veterans came to school wearing their medals
and uniforms to tell students about the Civil War. Then the veterans
marched through their home towns followed by the townspeople to the
cemetery." Soon enough, heroes from other wars were honored as well,
and the name became "Memorial Day."

Abraham Lincoln described our country, in his message to Congress in
1862, as the "last best hope of earth." Were it not for the United
States today--or, for that matter, in Lincoln's time--what would the
world look like? Aside from the hundreds of thousands of dead and
suffering, would anyone put the plight of the Sudanese on the world's
conscience today? It is fashionable in some quarters to say that our
policies against Muslims have caused other Muslims' wrath toward us.
But do we remember just our last two-decades' worth of military
excursions? Wolf Blitzer at CNN reminded us a few years ago: "Almost
every time U.S. military forces have been called into action to risk
their lives and limbs, it's been on behalf of Muslims," to save the
Afghanis against the Soviets, to liberate Kuwait from Saddam Hussein,
to help Somalis, to help Muslims in Bosnia and then Kosovo and to
overthrow the Taliban. To Afghanistan in our current global war on
terror, we can add Iraq--and come to the realization that our policies
and our military have liberated over 50 million Muslims in just the
past five years.

In our current war, we've lost almost 3,000 brave soldiers. On
September 11, 2001, we lost 3,000 citizens who did not sign up for war,
but rather signed up to live freely as Americans. If our war on terror
ceased right now, it would be the first time that the number of those
who died repelling the enemy was less than the number of people who
died in the initial attack on us. But no matter, our war will go on,
because our enemy is large and has continued on. Still, we need to
remember every American soldier and citizen, alike, in this
war--including those in our first battle against the 9/11 attackers,
those brave citizen-soldiers on United flight 93 who took over a
hijacked airliner heading for the capital and put it down to save as
many innocent lives as possible.

Memory is an important part of our country; it is a critical part to
sustain it, to honor it, to love it. And sustaining, honoring, and
loving it deserves. The words engraved at the top of our National
Archives building, erected during the time of FDR, spoke to why. It
states that "the glory and romance of our history," are preserved
there. "Glory and romance" is, indeed, the 230-year-old story of who we
are and what we have done.

But we are forgetting that, too. The great historian David McCullough
recently warned that we are raising, "generation after generation of
young Americans who are historically illiterate, we are running a
terrible risk for this country. You could have amnesia of a society,
which is as detrimental as amnesia of an individual." Indeed, in a
recent survey, only 22% of college seniors could properly identify the
phrase "Government of the people, by the people, and for the people;"
23% knew that James Madison was the Father of the Constitution; and
only about a third of our college seniors knew that our Constitution
established the division of power in our government. At the high school
level, "American history is our worst subject," according to what
education professionals recognize as our Nation's Report Card.

We cannot love what we have taken for granted and forgotten. We cannot
honor what we do not know. We need to engage in what Tom Wolfe has
called "the great relearning." There is no better time to start that
relearning than on this Memorial Day, so that we can remember and honor
what we have done and what we stand for. It is for this reason, and
more, much more, that I dedicated my new book on American history,
America: The Last Best Hope, this way: "To the American soldier, whose
fidelity, patriotism, and valor have made this land the last best hope
of earth."

Radio host William J. Bennett is the author of America: The Last Best
Hope, and the Washington Fellow of the Claremont Institute.

[Nick Olson]

This is a site about soaring- can I suggest all parties
stick to that topic- if you want to honour your dead
,debate the politics of that , trade insults, then
please take it elsewhere.

[Robert William]

Hammermill wrote:

> One thing people like Derek will never understand is that Americans
> have a history of fighting FOR freedom and liberty.

Don't be silly and anyway you're out of context here.

Although his choice of words was poor Derek is right in principle. The US
isn't in Iraq through any sense of freedom or liberty. It is there through
a combination of blindly lashing out because of 9/11 and trying to impose
a US-friendly guardian over Iraq's oil supply. Nothing else. There are
plenty of other dictatorships around with worse records of civilian rights
which the US steadfastly ignores.

In doing this it has directly caused the deaths of somewhere between
30,000 and 100,000 Iraqi civilians depending on whose figures you believe
(the US military? - right on!) with no end in sight. The US (and British)
soldiers who have died there have done what they were told, no more, and
after WW2 we hanged German soldiers for having done that.

I don't think that anyone here is significantly anti-US and certainly has
no opposition to honouring those who did die in defence of freedom - we do
the same in Britain. Just don't confuse the two, there is no justification
for the carnage and destruction in Iraq, and attempts to do so serve only
to bring the US further down in the eyes of the world.

Can we try to see past this sort of jingoistic drum-beating and get back
to gliding?

[Derek Copeland]

At least I am brave enough to argue my points under
my real name, with a risk of ending up on a CIA hit
list, rather than hiding behind a pseudonym! Can I
interest YOU in a nice yellow 'Lasham Gliding Society'
sweatshirt Hammermill?

By the way, it seems to me that more people have been
killed by the USA's pursuit of freedom, democracy,
capitalism and Mom's apple pie, than by any of the
dictatorships.

Derek Copeland

At 08:24 30 May 2006, Hammermill wrote:
>One thing people like Derek will never understand is
>that Americans
>have a history of fighting FOR freedom and liberty.
> Many of our war
>dead died fighting and killing the likes of Derek Copeland
>and his
>ancestors. Much of our history and the history of
>many people around
>the world who fought for freedom had to make that fight
>against the
>British. So the history of Derek and his ancestors
>is one of fighting
>against liberty, against freedom. While Dereks father
>fought in WWII,
>he fought as much to avoid having to speak German as
>for freedom. I
>doubt that Derek could be relied upon to even agree
>to let others do
>the fighting for him if the need ever arises. If it
>does and the cause
>is for freedom and for liberty there will be a lot
>of Americans and
>many Brits doing the fighting and Derek and his friends
>will be sitting
>in a prissy little pub sniping about the beastly Americans
>and how they
>should pay attention to him. I'll bet Derek looks
>good in yellow.
>

[Lurker]

Derek,

Rest assured that there are plenty of AMERICANS who share your views.
I understand your point completely, and often feel the same way. It
really does all come down to dislike for this president, this
administration and the narrow-minded decision to go to war. TO WAR!!!
For God's sake, the Iraqis aren't even the enemy!! At least they
weren't when all of this started. And no, I do not wish any harm to
Americans fighting abroad, ostensibly in *our* name. I just wish that
everyone could see as clearly as I do that this war is a folly being
administered largely by incompetents, that it serves no purpose, that
we were lied to as an excuse for entering into it, that it is patently
UNWINNABLE, and that it's destroying the fragile relationship the U.S.
has with the rest of the world. The most common retort I hear to that
last point is usually something like "SCREW THEM! WE'RE THE GREATEST
COUNTRY ON EARTH!" Yeah, right! The empty, knee-jerk patrotism and
blind acceptance of the Bush administration's criminal activities by so
many people in this country is sad and shocking to the rest of us on
this side of the pond. For the life of me I can't see how any good at
all can come of this.

And I'll be the first to admit that I hide behind a nickname because I
*AM* afraid. In my corner of the soaring community my opinions
definitely put me in a very small minority. It's really too bad, but
I've found that political randor can and does spoil an otherwise good
thing. Bottom line: I want to continue to fly harmoniously with these
folks, so I express my opinions anonymously here, and keep them to
myself everywhere else.

Derek Copeland wrote:
> Actually Jack, most Europeans don't hate or look down
> on the USA at all. We actually admire your culture
> and enterprise.
>
> However we dislike your President and we hate his decision
> to invade Iraq, in defiance of the United Nations and
> for that matter common sense. If the most powerful
> country in the World won't obey the rule of law, why
> should any other state? I am only sorry the my country,
> the United Kingdom, got involved, despite the biggest
> protest march ever against this on the streets of London,
> which included my good self.
>
> I'm sorry, but I find myself cheering every time a
> US soldier gets killed in Iraq. This is obviously not
> at a personal level, so much as it serves your country
> right! Blame your idiotic President and Donald Rumsfeld;
> not the Iraqis who are only fighting to free their
> own country. You value freedom, so why shouldn't they?
>
> At the end of the day, what possible threat was Iraq
> to the USA? As far as I can see, this was a revenge
> attack for the World Trade Centre attrocity, which
> was probably nothing to do with Iraq.
>
> Derek C
>
> At 02:24 27 May 2006, Jack wrote:
> >Quote: Jim,
> >This is the attitude that makes the USA the most hated
> >and looked down
> >upon country in the world right now. Too bad we still
> >have so many in
> >this country that don't understand humility.
> >
> >Shawn,
> >
> >What greater humility exists? Laying your life down
> >for the freedom of
> >your countrymen, as well as the freedom of the French
> >(who hate us),
> >the British ( who mostly hate us) the East Germans
> >(who hate us), the
> >Koreans, Chinese, and Vietnamese (who hate us), The
> >Iraquis, (who
> >definitely hate us.) All of them hate us until they
> >come over here to
> >our land of opportunity. Ask me if I give a crap about
> >who hates us.
> >I'm pretty sick of them, too. Fight your own wars or
> >give the fallen
> >American soldier his due respect. All of Europe would
> >be spending marks
> >and speaking German right now if not for American GIs.
> >For that matter,
> >China would be speaking Japanese. Let's not forget
> >that America was
> >trying it's best to stay out of that mess and all the
> >other wars it has
> >lead us to. It's a little bit like crying around about
> >America being
> >the only country that used a nuclear weapon. I'm not
> >sure where you
> >are, but had we not, your father might not have been
> >around, because he
> >would have been one of the million or so projected
> >casualties of the
> >Japanese invasion, that never took place.
> >
> >On a day like Memorial Day, PLEASE take your pinko-commie
> >politics and
> >stick them squarely where the sun don't shine. You
> >need a dose of
> >humility, yourself. For your info, I almost got my
> >ass shot off in
> >Vietnam and I have no tolerance for people like you
> >on Memorial Day.
> >And by the way, I don't think anyone really looks DOWN
> >on us.
> >Misinformed people like you that don't know history
> >are bound to repeat
> >it. I pray that you're not an American, that I almost
> >died for. If you
> >are, and you are so upset about the rest of the jealous
> >world hating
> >us, why not move out of the country and join them.
> >My son's in Iraq
> >right now. I certainly wouldn't trade his life for
> >yours.
> >
> >In other words... **** up a rope.
> >
> >Jim Culp, THANK YOU!
> >
> >Jack Womack
> >
> >

[Shawn]

Derek Copeland wrote:

> By the way, it seems to me that more people have been
> killed by the USA's pursuit of freedom, democracy,
> capitalism and Mom's apple pie, than by any of the
> dictatorships.
>
> Derek Copeland

Now you're just making stuff up Derek. Stalin? Pol Pot? That German guy?
Really. Next you'll be telling us England has good soaring.

Shawn

[Derek Copeland]

Now let me see. Carpet bombing in Germany, Japan, Korea,
Vietnam, Cambodia and Afghanistan. Atomic bombs in
Japan. Guided bombs and cruise missiles in Iraq. Then
there is napalm - nasty sticky petroleum designed to
cause horrific burns, and 'daisycutter' blast bombs
designed to kill as many people as possible. Agent
Orange defoliant which causes poisoning and birth defects.
Helicopter gunships. Need I go on?

By the way I have flown eight 500 km flights in the
UK including one in a club class Standard Cirrus, and
numerous 300s. We don't always have bad weather over
here.

Derek Copeland

At 05:12 31 May 2006, Shawn wrote:
>Derek Copeland wrote:
>
>> By the way, it seems to me that more people have been
>> killed by the USA's pursuit of freedom, democracy,
>> capitalism and Mom's apple pie, than by any of the
>> dictatorships.
>>
>> Derek Copeland
>
>Now you're just making stuff up Derek. Stalin? Pol
>Pot? That German guy?
>Really. Next you'll be telling us England has good
>soaring.
>
>Shawn
>
>

[Stefan]

Derek Copeland schrieb:

> Now let me see. Carpet bombing in Germany, Japan, Korea,
> Vietnam, Cambodia and Afghanistan. Atomic bombs in
....

And don't forget all those dictatorships that the USA themselves
installed or helped to install in the name of "freedom": Pahlevi, Saud,
Pinochet... ah, yes, and Saddam Hussein.

> By the way I have flown eight 500 km flights in the
> UK including one in a club class Standard Cirrus, and
> numerous 300s. We don't always have bad weather over
> here.

There's no bad weather, there's only mediocre pilots.

Stefan
(sitting on the ground in bad weather right now=

[PB]

Derek Copeland wrote:
> Now let me see. Carpet bombing in Germany, Japan, Korea,
> Vietnam, Cambodia and Afghanistan.

Hmmm, let me see did you forget, or did you never know your own
country's war history.

"About two thirds of the 500,000 to 600,000 (conservative estimates are
300,000) casualties of the bombings of German cities died during attacks
by Bomber Command. One of the most controversial aspects of Bomber
Command during WWII was the area bombing of cities....

The government's chief scientific adviser, Professor Frederick Lindemann
was very close to Winston Churchill, who gave him a seat in the Cabinet.
In 1942, Lindemann presented a seminal paper to the Cabinet advocating
the "aerial bombing of German cities by carpet bombing" in a strategic
bombing campaign............

While the idea that the area bombing by the RAF of German cities,
particularly in the last few months of the war, represented a
regrettable or excessive campaign is widely held, the case that it rises
to the level of a war crime is less widely subscribed to."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RAF_Bomber_Command


Well at least in this post you seem to speak for your self only, unlike
your previous post where, once again, you not only speak for your own
country, but all of Europe.


Kind regards

Paul Bart


> Derek Copeland
>
> At 05:12 31 May 2006, Shawn wrote:
>
>>Derek Copeland wrote:
>>
>>
>>>By the way, it seems to me that more people have been
>>>killed by the USA's pursuit of freedom, democracy,
>>>capitalism and Mom's apple pie, than by any of the
>>>dictatorships.
>>>
>>>Derek Copeland
>>
>>Now you're just making stuff up Derek. Stalin? Pol
>>Pot? That German guy?
>>Really. Next you'll be telling us England has good
>>soaring.
>>
>>Shawn
>>
>>
>
>
>
>

[Derek Copeland]

Well this occured before I was born. But:

1) The Germans bombed our cities first - London, Coventry,
Birmingham, Southampton, Portsmouth, Liverpool, etc,
etc.

2) We were at total war with Germany, and the only
way we could attack them until 1944 was by bombing.

3) The towns we bombed contained factories making armaments
and V weapons to use against us.

4) Night bombing techniques at the time were not accurate
enough to hit specific strategic targets. We found
out very early on in the war (as did the Germans and
later on the Yanks) that daylight bombing missions
were virtually suicidal against a well defended target.
The US Flying Fortresses and Liberators ended up carrying
so many defensive guns and gunners that they could
hardly carry any bombs. Even our little twin engined
Mosquitos could carry far more, so this is probably
why we killed more people.

Derek Copeland

At 09:36 31 May 2006, Pb wrote:
>
>
>Hmmm, let me see did you forget, or did you never know
>your own
>country's war history.
>
>'About two thirds of the 500,000 to 600,000 (conservative
>estimates are
>300,000) casualties of the bombings of German cities
>died during attacks
>by Bomber Command. One of the most controversial aspects
>of Bomber
>Command during WWII was the area bombing of cities....
>
>The government's chief scientific adviser, Professor
>Frederick Lindemann
>was very close to Winston Churchill, who gave him a
>seat in the Cabinet.
>In 1942, Lindemann presented a seminal paper to the
>Cabinet advocating
>the 'aerial bombing of German cities by carpet bombing'
>in a strategic
>bombing campaign............
>
>While the idea that the area bombing by the RAF of
>German cities,
>particularly in the last few months of the war, represented
>a
>regrettable or excessive campaign is widely held, the
>case that it rises
>to the level of a war crime is less widely subscribed
>to.'
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RAF_Bomber_Command
>
>
>Well at least in this post you seem to speak for your
>self only, unlike
>your previous post where, once again, you not only
>speak for your own
>country, but all of Europe.
>
>
>Kind regards
>
>Paul Bart
>
>

[PB]

Derek Copeland wrote:
> Well this occured before I was born. But:
>
> 1) The Germans bombed our cities first - London, Coventry,
> Birmingham, Southampton, Portsmouth, Liverpool, etc,
> etc.
But never carpet bombed your cities.


>
> 2) We were at total war with Germany, and the only
> way we could attack them until 1944 was by bombing.
>
Two wrongs do not make right, the choice was always yours.

> 3) The towns we bombed contained factories making armaments
> and V weapons to use against us.

Is that why Dresden was flattened just few month before the end of the
war? Not really, please check your history, inflicting maximum damage
to the cities was an expressly stated policy of the Bomber Command.


>
> 4) Night bombing techniques at the time were not accurate
> enough to hit specific strategic targets. We found
> out very early on in the war (as did the Germans and
> later on the Yanks) that daylight bombing missions
> were virtually suicidal against a well defended target.
> The US Flying Fortresses and Liberators ended up carrying
> so many defensive guns and gunners that they could
> hardly carry any bombs. Even our little twin engined
> Mosquitos could carry far more, so this is probably
> why we killed more people.

As per above.

Do not get me wrong. I am not condeming the actions of the Bomber
Command. I was not there and I do not have all the facts, and even if I
did, in the end I would only be making a value judgment. I was simply
pointing the duplicity of your argument.


kind regards


Paul Bart



> Derek Copeland
>
> At 09:36 31 May 2006, Pb wrote:
>
>>
>>Hmmm, let me see did you forget, or did you never know
>>your own
>>country's war history.
>>
>>'About two thirds of the 500,000 to 600,000 (conservative
>>estimates are
>>300,000) casualties of the bombings of German cities
>>died during attacks
>>by Bomber Command. One of the most controversial aspects
>>of Bomber
>>Command during WWII was the area bombing of cities....
>>
>>The government's chief scientific adviser, Professor
>>Frederick Lindemann
>>was very close to Winston Churchill, who gave him a
>>seat in the Cabinet.
>>In 1942, Lindemann presented a seminal paper to the
>>Cabinet advocating
>>the 'aerial bombing of German cities by carpet bombing'
>>in a strategic
>>bombing campaign............
>>
>>While the idea that the area bombing by the RAF of
>>German cities,
>>particularly in the last few months of the war, represented
>>a
>>regrettable or excessive campaign is widely held, the
>>case that it rises
>>to the level of a war crime is less widely subscribed
>>to.'
>>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RAF_Bomber_Command
>>
>>
>>Well at least in this post you seem to speak for your
>>self only, unlike
>>your previous post where, once again, you not only
>>speak for your own
>>country, but all of Europe.
>>
>>
>>Kind regards
>>
>>Paul Bart
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>

[jb92563]

I am a resident in the US, a Canadian citizen, and while I have been
here for the last 6 years I have learned some very important things
about the US and its people.

The politicians here are just a dumb and controversial here as anywhere
else in the world, never really seeming to perform what the public
wants, and always influenced
by personal agendas....just like everywhere else.

I can only hope that when their day of of reckoning comes, they will
pay for their deeds.

My Great Grandfather was killed by the British, and my Grandfather was
killed by the British, my father was injured by the Americans but they
took care of him as a prisoner in Texas......my father fought because
he was to protect his family, not because he supported Hitler's quest
for power. Troops dont necessarily agree on the politicians point of
view.

The company where I work, had adopted a platoon of Marines in Iraq and
sent them mail, supplies, words of encouragement, treats etc.

After their tour of duty was over they returned back to the US and
visited us here at work with their equipment, Hummers, Rifles,
Artillery etc and demonstrated for us how it all works.

I was immediately floored by their age.....they are so young, more like
the kids you see at the mall, or delivering the newspaper.

I was also impressed by their formal forthright attitudes.....their
parents can be very proud, as I've never seen a finer group of
kids.....very knowledgable and respectfull.

I was moved by what I saw, and could not imagine them laying down their
lives at the whim of our government, for the greater good. At that
moment or realization I understood what patriotism is all about.

So I celebrate memorial day out of respect for these fine boys and all
the others before them, because you have to support the soldiers, even
if not the politicians, because the soldiers are our children,
brothers, sisters, neices and nephews, fathers and grand
fathers.....they are our family....on every side of the globe, and they
have choosen to serve their family and country regardless of whether
they agree or not about the politics.

How can you not support your own troops or in my case adopted troops?

Every country has their own day of celebration, and I suggest everyone
support them as you would your own family. Thats what memorial day is
about.....saying thanks!

How can we argue about this?

Ray Buhr

[Frank Whiteley]

PB wrote:
> Derek Copeland wrote:
> > Well this occured before I was born. But:
> >
> > 1) The Germans bombed our cities first - London, Coventry,
> > Birmingham, Southampton, Portsmouth, Liverpool, etc,
> > etc.
> But never carpet bombed your cities.
>
<snip>
> Is that why Dresden was flattened just few month before the end of the
> war? Not really, please check your history, inflicting maximum damage
> to the cities was an expressly stated policy of the Bomber Command.
>
As far as I know it was payback for Coventry, which was sacrificed,
undefended by fighter command, to protect the secret possession of the
Enigma Machine by the Brits via the Poles. Churchill knew the raid on
Coventry was coming, but only via the code-breaking and no secondary
intelligence. One of the harder calls in the war and an appeasement to
some.

Frank Whiteley

[Jack]

jb92563 wrote:
> I am a resident in the US, a Canadian citizen, and while I have been
> here for the last 6 years I have learned some very important things
> about the US and its people.
>
> The politicians here are just a dumb and controversial here as anywhere
> else in the world, never really seeming to perform what the public
> wants, and always influenced
> by personal agendas....just like everywhere else.

[....]

>...my father fought because
> he was to protect his family, not because he supported Hitler's quest
> for power. Troops dont necessarily agree on the politicians point of
> view.

[....]

> So I celebrate memorial day out of respect for these fine boys and all
> the others before them, because you have to support the soldiers, even
> if not the politicians, because the soldiers are our children,
> brothers, sisters, neices and nephews, fathers and grand
> fathers.....they are our family....on every side of the globe, and they
> have choosen to serve their family and country regardless of whether
> they agree or not about the politics.

[....]

> How can we argue about this?

> Ray Buhr

----------


Thank you, Ray, for the injection of sanity and shared respect into a
series of pointless OT rants.

If travel broadens, there's clearly a crying need for more cross country
flying by some members of r.a.s.


Jack

[Derek Copeland]

Please get real Paul! We weren't fighting a tinpot
dictatorship like Iraq, but the most technologically
advanced and industrialised country in Europe, led
by fanatical Nazis.

Coventry was pretty comprehensively destroyed and its
beautiful medieval Cathedral burned out and wrecked
by possibly the most successful German bombing raid
of the war, using radio navigation beams that we hadn't
yet learned how to disrupt (unless you go along with
Frank Whiteley's conspiracy theory). The ruins of the
old Cathedral are now preserved as a memorial to the
many people who were killed in that city. My father
happened to be posted there at the time and was slightly
injured when a delayed action landmine went off quite
close to where he working.

Of course the Germans initially selected towns like
Coventry, Derby and Southampton to bomb because of
their connections with our aircraft industry. Later
on in the war they carried out 'revenge' attacks on
all sorts of unlikely towns and cities that were no
more and probably less industrial than Dresden!

Having narrowly fought off an attempted invasion by
the Germans in 1940, were we supposed to sit back and
let them develop their weapons of mass destruction
in peace and quiet so they could succeed the next time?
At least bombing their towns slowed them down and disrupted
production. And if bombing their centres of production
was so wrong, why did the USAAF join in so enthusiastically
from 1942 onwards?

Derek Copeland


At 12:42 31 May 2006, Pb wrote:
>Derek Copeland wrote:
>> Well this occured before I was born. But:
>>
>> 1) The Germans bombed our cities first - London, Coventry,
>> Birmingham, Southampton, Portsmouth, Liverpool, etc,
>> etc.
>But never carpet bombed your cities.
>
>
>>
>> 2) We were at total war with Germany, and the only
>> way we could attack them until 1944 was by bombing.
>>
>Two wrongs do not make right, the choice was always
>yours.
>
>> 3) The towns we bombed contained factories making
>>armaments
>> and V weapons to use against us.
>
>Is that why Dresden was flattened just few month before
>the end of the
>war? Not really, please check your history, inflicting
>maximum damage
>to the cities was an expressly stated policy of the
>Bomber Command.
>
>
>>
>> 4) Night bombing techniques at the time were not accurate
>> enough to hit specific strategic targets. We found
>> out very early on in the war (as did the Germans and
>> later on the Yanks) that daylight bombing missions
>> were virtually suicidal against a well defended target.
>> The US Flying Fortresses and Liberators ended up carrying
>> so many defensive guns and gunners that they could
>> hardly carry any bombs. Even our little twin engined
>> Mosquitos could carry far more, so this is probably
>> why we killed more people.
>
>As per above.
>
>Do not get me wrong. I am not condeming the actions
>of the Bomber
>Command. I was not there and I do not have all the
>facts, and even if I
>did, in the end I would only be making a value judgment.
> I was simply
>pointing the duplicity of your argument.
>
>
>kind regards
>
>
>Paul Bart
>
>
>
>> Derek Copeland
>>
>> At 09:36 31 May 2006, Pb wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>Hmmm, let me see did you forget, or did you never know
>>>your own
>>>country's war history.
>>>
>>>'About two thirds of the 500,000 to 600,000 (conservative
>>>estimates are
>>>300,000) casualties of the bombings of German cities
>>>died during attacks
>>>by Bomber Command. One of the most controversial aspects
>>>of Bomber
>>>Command during WWII was the area bombing of cities....
>>>
>>>The government's chief scientific adviser, Professor
>>>Frederick Lindemann
>>>was very close to Winston Churchill, who gave him a
>>>seat in the Cabinet.
>>>In 1942, Lindemann presented a seminal paper to the
>>>Cabinet advocating
>>>the 'aerial bombing of German cities by carpet bombing'
>>>in a strategic
>>>bombing campaign............
>>>
>>>While the idea that the area bombing by the RAF of
>>>German cities,
>>>particularly in the last few months of the war, represented
>>>a
>>>regrettable or excessive campaign is widely held, the
>>>case that it rises
>>>to the level of a war crime is less widely subscribed
>>>to.'
>>>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RAF_Bomber_Command
>>>
>>>
>>>Well at least in this post you seem to speak for your
>>>self only, unlike
>>>your previous post where, once again, you not only
>>>speak for your own
>>>country, but all of Europe.
>>>
>>>
>>>Kind regards
>>>
>>>Paul Bart
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>

[Jack]

Say, Derek, is it true that those V1's were actually self-launching gliders?

What do you suppose their true L/D was?


Jack

[Derek Copeland]

At 01:36 01 June 2006, Jack wrote:
>Say, Derek, is it true that those V1's were actually
>self-launching gliders?
>
>What do you suppose their true L/D was?
>
I had a look at one in an air museum a few weeks ago.
They had very short stubby wings, so probably not that
good - 10:1 maybe. I believe that one was fitted with
a cockpit and test flown by the famous (and very small)
lady glider pilot Hanna Reisch when they were having
control problems during its development.

Most modern weapons were first developed by the Germans,
and the V1 was the forerunner of the cruise missile,
albeit with a much cruder guidance system. Fortunately
for us in the UK GPS hadn't been invented then. They
depended on gyro compasses to keep them running straight
and a little propellor on the front to measure the
range. When they reached their estimated target distance
the motor was cut and the elevators set to full down
so they turned into bombs. I am told that if you heard
one coming, you didn't worry unless the engine stopped.

I believe that British Intelligence put a lot of effort
into persuading the Germans that the V1s were overshooting
their intended targets, using captured German agents
to send back false reports of where they landed. Thus
they reduced the range setting so they fell short.
Some towns just south of London took a bit of a battering
as a result.

German agents weren't that difficult to spot - anyone
who couldn't pronounce 'th' and 'w' properly was immediately
suspect!

Derek Copeland

[Mike the Strike]

Actually the V1 distance actuator just gave down elevator. It was
supposed to go into a power dive, but most often the engine stalled
because of fuel starvation from the sudden manouever. There's a V1 in
the Smithsonian Air and Space museaum and there also used to be one in
the Science Museum in London. The control schematics are available on
the web.

V1s were also launched from aircraft over the North Sea at targets in
northern England, a procedure that proved less than satisfactory.
Separation from the host aircraft was not always clean, resulting in
the loss of quite a few aircraft. Even those successfully launched
went far astray of their targets or fell into the sea. Not bad for
such an early innovation, though. My father was an air-raid warden in
northern Derbyshire and saw one of the errant V1s going by.

Mike


Derek Copeland wrote:
> At 01:36 01 June 2006, Jack wrote:
> >Say, Derek, is it true that those V1's were actually
> >self-launching gliders?
> >
> >What do you suppose their true L/D was?
> >
> I had a look at one in an air museum a few weeks ago.
> They had very short stubby wings, so probably not that
> good - 10:1 maybe. I believe that one was fitted with
> a cockpit and test flown by the famous (and very small)
> lady glider pilot Hanna Reisch when they were having
> control problems during its development.
>
> Most modern weapons were first developed by the Germans,
> and the V1 was the forerunner of the cruise missile,
> albeit with a much cruder guidance system. Fortunately
> for us in the UK GPS hadn't been invented then. They
> depended on gyro compasses to keep them running straight
> and a little propellor on the front to measure the
> range. When they reached their estimated target distance
> the motor was cut and the elevators set to full down
> so they turned into bombs. I am told that if you heard
> one coming, you didn't worry unless the engine stopped.
>
> I believe that British Intelligence put a lot of effort
> into persuading the Germans that the V1s were overshooting
> their intended targets, using captured German agents
> to send back false reports of where they landed. Thus
> they reduced the range setting so they fell short.
> Some towns just south of London took a bit of a battering
> as a result.
>
> German agents weren't that difficult to spot - anyone
> who couldn't pronounce 'th' and 'w' properly was immediately
> suspect!
>
> Derek Copeland

[jb92563]

Funny you should mention the V1, my father(19 yrs old at the time) who
was in German University in their Aeronatical Program was pulled from
school and sent to a factory to
assemble the V1 missles.

They were built rather hastily he says and it no doubt resulted in less
than predicatable performance when trying to set them out to a target.

I think the best they could hope for was that they would indeed explode
somewhere in England when sent off in that direction.

It was more for the demoralization of the enemy, not knowing when or
where these things would go, than specific targets and quite frequently
they simple exploded in empty fields.

Terrors of war are not limited by the imagination, and these are things
people would rather forget.

Ray Buhr

[Mike the Strike]

Actually, the ground launched V1s were surprisingly accurate for the
technology used. The biggest problem was variability of the thrust
produced by the pulse jet motor, hence the use of a simple distance run
control rather than a timer. Some V1 s were so fast they were
impossible to catch with existing aircraft, but some were slower and
could be caught and shot down or tipped up to upset the control system.
The most interesting story is the one already mentioned. The area
where they were falling was measured by radar, but more reliance was
given to reports from German spies (who were captured and feeding false
information). The range of V1s was later adjusted based on the false
information, steering more of them into empty countryside.

Despite the higher damage and death rate of the more sophisticated V2,
the V1 caused
a lot more distress because of its sound, visability and apparent
unstoppability.

Mike

jb92563 wrote:
> Funny you should mention the V1, my father(19 yrs old at the time) who
> was in German University in their Aeronatical Program was pulled from
> school and sent to a factory to
> assemble the V1 missles.
>
> They were built rather hastily he says and it no doubt resulted in less
> than predicatable performance when trying to set them out to a target.
>
> I think the best they could hope for was that they would indeed explode
> somewhere in England when sent off in that direction.
>
> It was more for the demoralization of the enemy, not knowing when or
> where these things would go, than specific targets and quite frequently
> they simple exploded in empty fields.
>
> Terrors of war are not limited by the imagination, and these are things
> people would rather forget.
>
> Ray Buhr

[Robert William]

Thrice blessed is he
Who has his quarrel just
But nine times he
Who gets his punch in first

not Jim Culp