Careless Linemen

[Kyle Boatright]

How do the rest of you deal with careless linemen? The kind who scratch
your airplane or chip the paint because they are either careless or have not
been properly trained on how to avoid damaging aircraft when refueling 'em.

Case in point - this afternoon I stopped by the airport to prep for a trip
to the beach tomorrow. I grabbed a couple of maps and the handheld gps from
the airplane while the lineman was getting ready to fuel the airplane. By
the time I grabbed those things, the lineman had already filled the left
tank, and there was a brand spankin' new paint chip near the fuel filler on
the tank. How do I know it was brand new? Because I'd just wiped off a nice
collection of bugs from the airplane, and it wasn't chipped then... Anyway,
I eased over to see how he was coming with the other tank, and he had the
entire 10" long nozzle in the right tank and was using a notch in the fuel
nozzle's handle to catch the edge of the fuel filler neck to provide a
mechanical stop.

I say "hey, let me show you something" and show him that the sharp corner of
the casting is resting on the fuel filler. He pulls the nozzle out of the
tank, and there is a noticable mark on the paint where he was resting the
nozzle. He said he didn't realize he was doing that. I didn't point out
the new chip on the other wing, which I speculate was caused by either the
same technique, or the other technique I've seen many times, where the
lineman puts the nozzle into the tank at a 45 degree angle, and the weight
of the nozzle rests on the painted edge of the fuel filler.

This is my home airport, and the guy was nice enough, so I didn't make an
issue out of it, but it is really frustrating to have avoidable dings and
chips on your airplane when it costs $5k or $10k to have the thing
repainted...

BTW, self serve is not an option at my home field, which is why I usually go
elsewhere for fuel. That and the high prices that are caused by having to
pay the "fuel truck guy" to hang around the airport all day long when there
really isn't much fuel being sold...

Also, now that I'm giving this more thought, I need to see if the guy dented
the bottom of my fuel tanks by sticking the nozzle so far in there...
Sheesh...

[kontiki]

Talk to the FBO manager. It's his job to insure proper training of his
employees. Venting here may make you feel better but it won't get the
message to the right person.

[Mortimer Schnerd, RN]

Kyle Boatright wrote:
> How do the rest of you deal with careless linemen? The kind who scratch
> your airplane or chip the paint because they are either careless or have not
> been properly trained on how to avoid damaging aircraft when refueling 'em.



I've done my share of ramp ratting and I'll remind you the FBO isn't paying that
guy enough to live on. OTOH, most of the guys on the ramp like aviation and
wouldn't knowingly damage an aircraft. I'd say education would be the answer
you're looking for.

I congratulate you on keeping your temper. What many people never seem to
consider is what motivates others. When somebody shows me their ass, I tend to
look for ways to pay them back. When somebody's nice to me and I've screwed up,
I look for ways to make it up to them. You definitely want to be in the latter
category.



--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN

[Bob Gardner]

Tell you what I suggest for the future: Lay hands on enough rubber or soft
plastic to cover the area of the filler with a good margin around it, and
cut out a circle just a tad larger than the filler opening. Tell the lineboy
to put it in place before inserting the nozzle. I'll bet you could go to a
second-hand store and pick up place mats, dish mats, etc that would do the
job for pennies.

Bob Gardner

"Kyle Boatright" > wrote in message
...
> How do the rest of you deal with careless linemen? The kind who scratch
> your airplane or chip the paint because they are either careless or have
> not been properly trained on how to avoid damaging aircraft when refueling
> 'em.
>
> Case in point - this afternoon I stopped by the airport to prep for a trip
> to the beach tomorrow. I grabbed a couple of maps and the handheld gps
> from the airplane while the lineman was getting ready to fuel the
> airplane. By the time I grabbed those things, the lineman had already
> filled the left tank, and there was a brand spankin' new paint chip near
> the fuel filler on the tank. How do I know it was brand new? Because I'd
> just wiped off a nice collection of bugs from the airplane, and it wasn't
> chipped then... Anyway, I eased over to see how he was coming with the
> other tank, and he had the entire 10" long nozzle in the right tank and
> was using a notch in the fuel nozzle's handle to catch the edge of the
> fuel filler neck to provide a mechanical stop.
>
> I say "hey, let me show you something" and show him that the sharp corner
> of the casting is resting on the fuel filler. He pulls the nozzle out of
> the tank, and there is a noticable mark on the paint where he was resting
> the nozzle. He said he didn't realize he was doing that. I didn't point
> out the new chip on the other wing, which I speculate was caused by either
> the same technique, or the other technique I've seen many times, where the
> lineman puts the nozzle into the tank at a 45 degree angle, and the weight
> of the nozzle rests on the painted edge of the fuel filler.
>
> This is my home airport, and the guy was nice enough, so I didn't make an
> issue out of it, but it is really frustrating to have avoidable dings and
> chips on your airplane when it costs $5k or $10k to have the thing
> repainted...
>
> BTW, self serve is not an option at my home field, which is why I usually
> go elsewhere for fuel. That and the high prices that are caused by having
> to pay the "fuel truck guy" to hang around the airport all day long when
> there really isn't much fuel being sold...
>
> Also, now that I'm giving this more thought, I need to see if the guy
> dented the bottom of my fuel tanks by sticking the nozzle so far in
> there... Sheesh...
>
>
>
>
>

[FLAV8R]

"Bob Gardner" wrote in message ...
> Tell you what I suggest for the future: Lay hands on enough rubber or soft
> plastic to cover the area of the filler with a good margin around it, and
> cut out a circle just a tad larger than the filler opening. Tell the
> lineboy to put it in place before inserting the nozzle. I'll bet you could
> go to a second-hand store and pick up place mats, dish mats, etc that
> would do the job for pennies.
>
> Bob Gardner
>
That's a great idea and if you want to spend $19.95 there is a company
that sells one if you don't want to make your own.
http://www.theproperaircraft.com/prod7.html
Look about 2/3's down the page.

David

[Brock Boss]

That filler mat will work well. I've seen people use the rubber padding
stores sell for lining drawers of tool boxes as well.
The previous owner of our 172 had a lineboy rest the fuel nozzle like
you mentioned. On later inspection he found a cracked filler neck on
the fuel tank. That's a costly repair for what seems like a harmless
action. My A&P taught me to hold the hose over my shoulder, keeping the
weight of the hose off of the airplane. For us high wingers you also
need to watch and make sure the linemen dont stand on the struts(unless
you've got the steps and pads some models do) and bang the ladder into
the wings/fuselage/strut.

Brock Boss

Kyle Boatright wrote:
> How do the rest of you deal with careless linemen? The kind who scratch
> your airplane or chip the paint because they are either careless or have not
> been properly trained on how to avoid damaging aircraft when refueling 'em.
>

[john smith]

Be careful with the cheap ones... if the wing is hot, it may stick and
leave a residue on your wing.

[Dudley Henriques]

Every owner probably handles things like this differently. I agree it can be
a real hassle when somebody puts a nice dent or ding on that nice new Imron
paint job you just forked out 10 grand for.
There are two scenarios involved with this type of thing; one at your home
field; the other on the road.
It's a lot easier to handle it on your home field. Just walk into the flight
office and very nicely but with some authority state quite clearly exactly
how you wish your airplane to be handled. If using a rag between a hose
nozzle and your paint is something you prefer, tell them.
I've done this for fifty years and never had a problem.
On the other hand, getting serviced at strange fields has it's risks. Trust
me I know :-)
You can always leave explicit instructions with the line office that define
any concerns you might have. Also, something I always did was to have a
prepared notice on a neatly done signboard that I left showing in plain
sight inside my canopy for the line people to see asking for rags between
metal at all times when servicing my airplane. This also served me well
through the years, as did the nice little pitot cover my wife made for me
out of red fabric with a nice lightning bolt sewn on both sides with the
following sewn into it........."DON'T TOUCH THIS. HIGH VOLTAGE" :-))))
Worked like a charm!!!
Dudley Henriques


"Kyle Boatright" > wrote in message
...
> How do the rest of you deal with careless linemen? The kind who scratch
> your airplane or chip the paint because they are either careless or have
> not been properly trained on how to avoid damaging aircraft when refueling
> 'em.
>
> Case in point - this afternoon I stopped by the airport to prep for a trip
> to the beach tomorrow. I grabbed a couple of maps and the handheld gps
> from the airplane while the lineman was getting ready to fuel the
> airplane. By the time I grabbed those things, the lineman had already
> filled the left tank, and there was a brand spankin' new paint chip near
> the fuel filler on the tank. How do I know it was brand new? Because I'd
> just wiped off a nice collection of bugs from the airplane, and it wasn't
> chipped then... Anyway, I eased over to see how he was coming with the
> other tank, and he had the entire 10" long nozzle in the right tank and
> was using a notch in the fuel nozzle's handle to catch the edge of the
> fuel filler neck to provide a mechanical stop.
>
> I say "hey, let me show you something" and show him that the sharp corner
> of the casting is resting on the fuel filler. He pulls the nozzle out of
> the tank, and there is a noticable mark on the paint where he was resting
> the nozzle. He said he didn't realize he was doing that. I didn't point
> out the new chip on the other wing, which I speculate was caused by either
> the same technique, or the other technique I've seen many times, where the
> lineman puts the nozzle into the tank at a 45 degree angle, and the weight
> of the nozzle rests on the painted edge of the fuel filler.
>
> This is my home airport, and the guy was nice enough, so I didn't make an
> issue out of it, but it is really frustrating to have avoidable dings and
> chips on your airplane when it costs $5k or $10k to have the thing
> repainted...
>
> BTW, self serve is not an option at my home field, which is why I usually
> go elsewhere for fuel. That and the high prices that are caused by having
> to pay the "fuel truck guy" to hang around the airport all day long when
> there really isn't much fuel being sold...
>
> Also, now that I'm giving this more thought, I need to see if the guy
> dented the bottom of my fuel tanks by sticking the nozzle so far in
> there... Sheesh...
>
>
>
>
>

[Jay Honeck]

> Tell you what I suggest for the future: Lay hands on enough rubber or soft
> plastic to cover the area of the filler with a good margin around it, and
> cut out a circle just a tad larger than the filler opening. Tell the
> lineboy to put it in place before inserting the nozzle.

The most damage I've ever had inflicted by a lineman was due to a guy using
one of those rubber mats.

It had been "stored" in the gravel adjacent to the fuel pump, and
(unbeknownst to him) the underside had become caked with sand and small
stones. That sand- and rock-paper was ground into the paint by the weight
of the line-guy's arm and the edge of the fuel filler spout.

It seems silly to have to say it, but if your FBO uses a rubber mat make
sure they brush off the loose stuff before laying it on your wing.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[karl gruber]

I NEVER let someone else fuel my Skywagon.

Just be there and ask nicely for the hose.


Karl
"Curator" N185KG


"Kyle Boatright" > wrote in message
...
> How do the rest of you deal with careless linemen? The kind who scratch
> your airplane or chip the paint because they are either careless or have
> not been properly trained on how to avoid damaging aircraft when refueling
> 'em.
>
> Case in point - this afternoon I stopped by the airport to prep for a trip
> to the beach tomorrow. I grabbed a couple of maps and the handheld gps
> from the airplane while the lineman was getting ready to fuel the
> airplane. By the time I grabbed those things, the lineman had already
> filled the left tank, and there was a brand spankin' new paint chip near
> the fuel filler on the tank. How do I know it was brand new? Because I'd
> just wiped off a nice collection of bugs from the airplane, and it wasn't
> chipped then... Anyway, I eased over to see how he was coming with the
> other tank, and he had the entire 10" long nozzle in the right tank and
> was using a notch in the fuel nozzle's handle to catch the edge of the
> fuel filler neck to provide a mechanical stop.
>
> I say "hey, let me show you something" and show him that the sharp corner
> of the casting is resting on the fuel filler. He pulls the nozzle out of
> the tank, and there is a noticable mark on the paint where he was resting
> the nozzle. He said he didn't realize he was doing that. I didn't point
> out the new chip on the other wing, which I speculate was caused by either
> the same technique, or the other technique I've seen many times, where the
> lineman puts the nozzle into the tank at a 45 degree angle, and the weight
> of the nozzle rests on the painted edge of the fuel filler.
>
> This is my home airport, and the guy was nice enough, so I didn't make an
> issue out of it, but it is really frustrating to have avoidable dings and
> chips on your airplane when it costs $5k or $10k to have the thing
> repainted...
>
> BTW, self serve is not an option at my home field, which is why I usually
> go elsewhere for fuel. That and the high prices that are caused by having
> to pay the "fuel truck guy" to hang around the airport all day long when
> there really isn't much fuel being sold...
>
> Also, now that I'm giving this more thought, I need to see if the guy
> dented the bottom of my fuel tanks by sticking the nozzle so far in
> there... Sheesh...
>
>
>
>
>

[Bob Fry]

>>>>> "FLAV8R" == FLAV8R > writes:
FLAV8R> That's a great idea and if you want to spend $19.95

Wow! I guess that's the TSO'd version.

[Bob Fry]

And for the lineguys that fill the tanks properly...how 'bout a nice
tip? This topic came up a while ago, but I always try to remember to
tip them. As others have pointed out, their wage is lousy and a buck
or two doesn't hurt us pilots and is much appreciated by them.

[Martin Hotze]

On Fri, 26 May 2006 21:26:15 -0700, Bob Fry wrote:

>And for the lineguys that fill the tanks properly...how 'bout a nice
>tip?

why? it is his job.

extra service (more than usual): I agree: tip him/her.

> This topic came up a while ago, but I always try to remember to
>tip them. As others have pointed out, their wage is lousy and a buck
>or two doesn't hurt us pilots and is much appreciated by them.

so to give his boss an incentive to go on with the lousy pay?

If I do my job I only get my rate and no extras. If I do more than expected
then I happily accept a tip.

#m
--
Lost the phone number of a good friend? Don't know whom the kids called?
Don't worry any longer! Call 1-800-2NSA ... we are here to help you!

[Mortimer Schnerd, RN]

Martin Hotze wrote:
> If I do my job I only get my rate and no extras. If I do more than expected
> then I happily accept a tip.



You should get *his* rate then. Do you work harder in your job?

You want to pay for substandard work, don't complain if you get it.
Irregardless of whether it's the FBO's decision to pay the poor slob slave
wages, it's the interaction between the lineman and your aircraft that matters.
You can stand by your principles and be a tight ass or you can be known on the
ramp as the guy who tips. Guess who'll end up getting the better service?

Right? Wrong? It doesn't matter. That's just the way it is.



--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN

[Travis Marlatte]

I just refuel my own plane. I do have a plane that not all lineman have seen
so it usually doesn't take much convincing.

When I check in, I either ask for fuel right then and go back out and wait
for it or I tell them that I'll order the fuel when I get back. Either way,
I'm there for it.

As they drive up, I have the ground clip pulled out and clipped on before
they get out of their truck. As they are zeroing the counter and unwinding
the hose, I'm climbing on my plane so all they have to do is hand it to me.

I have only had two guys challenge me that it was against their policy for
them to let me fuel. In both cases, I simply said "I understand. Well I
guess unless you want to call your boss for an exception, that'll do it
then. Sorry to bring you out here for nothing." In both cases, they relented
and handed me the fuel nozzle.

In one of the above cases, the guy actually said it was against the law for
him to let me do the fueling. I didn't argue with him but I did say, "That
would be incorrect but I would believe that you have a company polciy
against it. Is that what you are thinking of?" He said, "Yea, Yea, that's
what I meant. Policy. Stupid policy. After all, it's your plane. Here you
go. You want me to get the windshield while your fueling?"

--
-------------------------------
Travis
Lake N3094P
PWK

"Dudley Henriques" > wrote in message
nk.net...
> Every owner probably handles things like this differently. I agree it can
> be a real hassle when somebody puts a nice dent or ding on that nice new
> Imron paint job you just forked out 10 grand for.
> There are two scenarios involved with this type of thing; one at your home
> field; the other on the road.
> It's a lot easier to handle it on your home field. Just walk into the
> flight office and very nicely but with some authority state quite clearly
> exactly how you wish your airplane to be handled. If using a rag between a
> hose nozzle and your paint is something you prefer, tell them.
> I've done this for fifty years and never had a problem.
> On the other hand, getting serviced at strange fields has it's risks.
> Trust me I know :-)
> You can always leave explicit instructions with the line office that
> define any concerns you might have. Also, something I always did was to
> have a prepared notice on a neatly done signboard that I left showing in
> plain sight inside my canopy for the line people to see asking for rags
> between metal at all times when servicing my airplane. This also served me
> well through the years, as did the nice little pitot cover my wife made
> for me out of red fabric with a nice lightning bolt sewn on both sides
> with the following sewn into it........."DON'T TOUCH THIS. HIGH VOLTAGE"
> :-))))
> Worked like a charm!!!
> Dudley Henriques
>
>
> "Kyle Boatright" > wrote in message
> ...
>> How do the rest of you deal with careless linemen? The kind who scratch
>> your airplane or chip the paint because they are either careless or have
>> not been properly trained on how to avoid damaging aircraft when
>> refueling 'em.
>>
>> Case in point - this afternoon I stopped by the airport to prep for a
>> trip to the beach tomorrow. I grabbed a couple of maps and the handheld
>> gps from the airplane while the lineman was getting ready to fuel the
>> airplane. By the time I grabbed those things, the lineman had already
>> filled the left tank, and there was a brand spankin' new paint chip near
>> the fuel filler on the tank. How do I know it was brand new? Because I'd
>> just wiped off a nice collection of bugs from the airplane, and it wasn't
>> chipped then... Anyway, I eased over to see how he was coming with the
>> other tank, and he had the entire 10" long nozzle in the right tank and
>> was using a notch in the fuel nozzle's handle to catch the edge of the
>> fuel filler neck to provide a mechanical stop.
>>
>> I say "hey, let me show you something" and show him that the sharp corner
>> of the casting is resting on the fuel filler. He pulls the nozzle out of
>> the tank, and there is a noticable mark on the paint where he was resting
>> the nozzle. He said he didn't realize he was doing that. I didn't point
>> out the new chip on the other wing, which I speculate was caused by
>> either the same technique, or the other technique I've seen many times,
>> where the lineman puts the nozzle into the tank at a 45 degree angle, and
>> the weight of the nozzle rests on the painted edge of the fuel filler.
>>
>> This is my home airport, and the guy was nice enough, so I didn't make an
>> issue out of it, but it is really frustrating to have avoidable dings and
>> chips on your airplane when it costs $5k or $10k to have the thing
>> repainted...
>>
>> BTW, self serve is not an option at my home field, which is why I usually
>> go elsewhere for fuel. That and the high prices that are caused by
>> having to pay the "fuel truck guy" to hang around the airport all day
>> long when there really isn't much fuel being sold...
>>
>> Also, now that I'm giving this more thought, I need to see if the guy
>> dented the bottom of my fuel tanks by sticking the nozzle so far in
>> there... Sheesh...
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>

[Gary Drescher]

"Kyle Boatright" > wrote in message
...
> How do the rest of you deal with careless linemen? The kind who scratch
> your airplane or chip the paint

At a local FBO a couple of weeks ago, a lineperson towed a Katana into a
DA40, damaging the latter and just about destroying the former (it tilted
onto its nose, which was then crushed). Kinda makes you feel grateful to
have just a couple of scratches. :)

--Gary

[Ron Natalie]

kontiki wrote:
> Talk to the FBO manager. It's his job to insure proper training of his
> employees. Venting here may make you feel better but it won't get the
> message to the right person.
>
Unless it's a facility that I am personally familiar with the
staff, I don't let them fuel the Navion. The fueling is
tricky on my plane. You can overflow the filler and still leave
the mains about 16 gallons short. The aux tank is a boobytrap
as well...unless you're used to the thing you'll dump a half
a gallon of fuel on yourself when it hits the top.

[Martin Hotze]

On Sat, 27 May 2006 08:56:33 GMT, Mortimer Schnerd, RN wrote:

>You can stand by your principles and be a tight ass or you can be known on the
>ramp as the guy who tips. Guess who'll end up getting the better service?

well, tip every single time but once. What will happen? You're then short
before making excuses because you don't have tipped.

#m
--
Lost the phone number of a good friend? Don't know whom the kids called?
Don't worry any longer! Call 1-800-2NSA ... we are here to help you!

[Scott D]

On Fri, 26 May 2006 21:26:15 -0700, Bob Fry >
wrote:

>And for the lineguys that fill the tanks properly...how 'bout a nice
>tip? This topic came up a while ago, but I always try to remember to
>tip them. As others have pointed out, their wage is lousy and a buck
>or two doesn't hurt us pilots and is much appreciated by them.

I agree with you Bob. I tip the line guys all the time. As a
corporate pilot, I have found that tipping the line guys gets me
excellent service well beyond the standard toping off the tanks. At
the airports I frequent regularly, the guys will have ice, water and
whatever else already at my plane waiting even if I didn't ask for it.
They allow my boss's car to stay inside the gated area of the airport
when we leave and when we get back, not only is it washed on the
outside, which I see a lot of FBO's provide this service, but they
have also detailed the inside of it as well. When we land, they
usually have his car and a cart sitting beside the plane before I
hardly get a chance to shut it down and I don't even call on UNICOM to
let them know I am coming. The boss likes this and it makes me look
good to, because he knows that I am taking care of him which I feel
provides me with a little more job security.

Scott D.

take out the obvious to email me

[karl gruber]

Actually, in Oregon, it IS against the law to fuel your own airplane. Can't
fuel your own car either.

Karl
"Curator" N185KG


> In one of the above cases, the guy actually said it was against the law
> for him to let me do the fueling. I didn't argue with him but I did say,
> "That would be incorrect but I would believe that you have a company
> polciy against it. Is that what you are thinking of?" He said, "Yea, Yea,
> that's what I meant. Policy. Stupid policy. After all, it's your plane.
> Here you go. You want me to get the windshield while your fueling?"
>
> --
> -------------------------------
> Travis
> Lake N3094P
> PWK
>

[Jessica]

Kyle Boatright wrote:
> How do the rest of you deal with careless linemen? The kind who scratch
> your airplane or chip the paint because they are either careless or have not
> been properly trained on how to avoid damaging aircraft when refueling 'em.

> By the time I grabbed those things, the lineman had already filled the left
> tank, and there was a brand spankin' new paint chip near the fuel filler on
> the tank.

I feel your pain. Also on some aircraft there are baffles just inside
the tank that can be damaged if a fuel nozzle is put in too far inside
the tank. I know from experiece that there can be a tendency to put the
nozzle in farther (below the top of the liquid) to prevent fuel drops
from splashing back out of the tank. The solution is to hold the nozzle
at a 45 degree angle and never put it in farther than you can see.
Because avgas damages skin and is full of poisons that get absorbed
like tetraethyl lead and benzene, I try avoid letting it touch me at all
costs.

I realize that line service isn't a high paid job but proper fueling is
a simple thing to learn and the FBO should be teaching its employees,
new and old about it. If they don't know how to fill a tank without
scratching the paint, do they know that turbocharged aircraft need the
blue juice and not Jet A? It would be worth mentioning to the
management or even filling out a comment card.

I use a club aircraft and we have our own pump so I'm used to doing it
myself. But if I am elsewhere and someone else is going to be doing it,
I always want to be there to supervise the operation and make sure
quality control is just as good :)

[Jessica]

karl gruber wrote:

> Actually, in Oregon, it IS against the law to fuel your own airplane. Can't
> fuel your own car either.

Heh, even in New Jersey (no self service at service stations) you can
fuel your own airplane, and the marina "line man" will hand you the
nozzle to fill your boat too. Go figure.

The only exception to the self service for road vehicles that I've found
in NJ is the base gase station at McGuire.

[Bob Gardner]

That's why I advise supplying your own.

Bob

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:T%Odg.750186$084.532251@attbi_s22...
>> Tell you what I suggest for the future: Lay hands on enough rubber or
>> soft plastic to cover the area of the filler with a good margin around
>> it, and cut out a circle just a tad larger than the filler opening. Tell
>> the lineboy to put it in place before inserting the nozzle.
>
> The most damage I've ever had inflicted by a lineman was due to a guy
> using one of those rubber mats.
>
> It had been "stored" in the gravel adjacent to the fuel pump, and
> (unbeknownst to him) the underside had become caked with sand and small
> stones. That sand- and rock-paper was ground into the paint by the weight
> of the line-guy's arm and the edge of the fuel filler spout.
>
> It seems silly to have to say it, but if your FBO uses a rubber mat make
> sure they brush off the loose stuff before laying it on your wing.
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"
>

[Jim Macklin]

If you have bladder tank, it can have a hole punched in the
bladder when the nozzle is inserted too far. The proper
method is to have the hose over your back and the weight is
supported by the shoulder. The nozzle should not be more
than 2 inches inside the filler, but the nozzle should make
electrical contact with the tank and a ground wire should be
connected from the truck to the airplane and to the ground.
Also, a protective mat should be place around the filler to
prevent accidental damage.


--
James H. Macklin
ATP,CFI,A&P

--
The people think the Constitution protects their rights;
But government sees it as an obstacle to be overcome.
some support
http://www.usdoj.gov/olc/secondamendment2.htm
See http://www.fija.org/ more about your rights and duties.


"Kyle Boatright" > wrote in message
...
| How do the rest of you deal with careless linemen? The
kind who scratch
| your airplane or chip the paint because they are either
careless or have not
| been properly trained on how to avoid damaging aircraft
when refueling 'em.
|
| Case in point - this afternoon I stopped by the airport to
prep for a trip
| to the beach tomorrow. I grabbed a couple of maps and the
handheld gps from
| the airplane while the lineman was getting ready to fuel
the airplane. By
| the time I grabbed those things, the lineman had already
filled the left
| tank, and there was a brand spankin' new paint chip near
the fuel filler on
| the tank. How do I know it was brand new? Because I'd
just wiped off a nice
| collection of bugs from the airplane, and it wasn't
chipped then... Anyway,
| I eased over to see how he was coming with the other tank,
and he had the
| entire 10" long nozzle in the right tank and was using a
notch in the fuel
| nozzle's handle to catch the edge of the fuel filler neck
to provide a
| mechanical stop.
|
| I say "hey, let me show you something" and show him that
the sharp corner of
| the casting is resting on the fuel filler. He pulls the
nozzle out of the
| tank, and there is a noticable mark on the paint where he
was resting the
| nozzle. He said he didn't realize he was doing that. I
didn't point out
| the new chip on the other wing, which I speculate was
caused by either the
| same technique, or the other technique I've seen many
times, where the
| lineman puts the nozzle into the tank at a 45 degree
angle, and the weight
| of the nozzle rests on the painted edge of the fuel
filler.
|
| This is my home airport, and the guy was nice enough, so I
didn't make an
| issue out of it, but it is really frustrating to have
avoidable dings and
| chips on your airplane when it costs $5k or $10k to have
the thing
| repainted...
|
| BTW, self serve is not an option at my home field, which
is why I usually go
| elsewhere for fuel. That and the high prices that are
caused by having to
| pay the "fuel truck guy" to hang around the airport all
day long when there
| really isn't much fuel being sold...
|
| Also, now that I'm giving this more thought, I need to see
if the guy dented
| the bottom of my fuel tanks by sticking the nozzle so far
in there...
| Sheesh...
|
|
|
|
|

[Jim Macklin]

But you can always stand there an supervise, it is the PIC
duty. Let the coffee wait. If you have to ****, do it on
the ramp, but be there to talk to the line guy and see to
the cleanliness and procedures.


--
James H. Macklin
ATP,CFI,A&P

--
The people think the Constitution protects their rights;
But government sees it as an obstacle to be overcome.
some support
http://www.usdoj.gov/olc/secondamendment2.htm
See http://www.fija.org/ more about your rights and duties.


"karl gruber" > wrote in message
...
| Actually, in Oregon, it IS against the law to fuel your
own airplane. Can't
| fuel your own car either.
|
| Karl
| "Curator" N185KG
|
|
| > In one of the above cases, the guy actually said it was
against the law
| > for him to let me do the fueling. I didn't argue with
him but I did say,
| > "That would be incorrect but I would believe that you
have a company
| > polciy against it. Is that what you are thinking of?" He
said, "Yea, Yea,
| > that's what I meant. Policy. Stupid policy. After all,
it's your plane.
| > Here you go. You want me to get the windshield while
your fueling?"
| >
| > --
| > -------------------------------
| > Travis
| > Lake N3094P
| > PWK
| >
|
|

[Morgans]

"Mortimer Schnerd, RN" > wrote in message
. ..
> Martin Hotze wrote:
>> If I do my job I only get my rate and no extras. If I do more than
>> expected
>> then I happily accept a tip.
>
>
>
> You should get *his* rate then. Do you work harder in your job?
>
> You want to pay for substandard work, don't complain if you get it.
> Irregardless of whether it's the FBO's decision to pay the poor slob slave
> wages, it's the interaction between the lineman and your aircraft that
> matters. You can stand by your principles and be a tight ass or you can be
> known on the ramp as the guy who tips. Guess who'll end up getting the
> better service?
>
> Right? Wrong? It doesn't matter. That's just the way it is.

You'll have to excuse Martin. He is used to the European idea of no tips
for service people.

Sure does make for lousy service at restaurants, from what I have noticed.

It may not be right for the management to pay poor, but the tipping model
does make for much better service, believe it or not, Martin.
--
Jim in NC

[Martin Hotze]

On Sat, 27 May 2006 14:59:30 -0400, Morgans wrote:

>You'll have to excuse Martin. He is used to the European idea of no tips
>for service people.

you're wrong on this one. I am against tipping service people without good
reason.

>Sure does make for lousy service at restaurants, from what I have noticed.

wrong. again.

>It may not be right for the management to pay poor, but the tipping model
>does make for much better service, believe it or not, Martin.

I love to tip (read: honor) for service better than expected; and I spread
the word about receiving good (better than usual) service. But I don't tip
just because I received what I paid for. For average service at
§pickyourchoice (restaurant, bar, lineguy, ...) I don't want to give
_extra_ money (read: honor his average service). And I don't want to
substitute his boss with poor wages (because the boss also expects tips to
be given).

Do you tip the blonde braindead waitress serving your plate with her finger
in your meal? just because you always tip at restaurants and because she
had a big dumb grin on her face hiding her unskilled serving 'technique'?

#m
--
Lost the phone number of a good friend? Don't know whom the kids called?
Don't worry any longer! Call 1-800-2NSA ... we are here to help you!

[Jim Macklin]

I always tip the waitress because they work for tips, they
draw a salary about 1/2 the minimum wage because the law
expects they will get minimum wage when the tips are
included.

I tip if they laugh at my silly jokes, if they have a nice
smile and they have a good figure. I tip more if they do a
good job, even if it is a guy or a fat girl.


"Martin Hotze" > wrote in message
...
| On Sat, 27 May 2006 14:59:30 -0400, Morgans wrote:
|
| >You'll have to excuse Martin. He is used to the European
idea of no tips
| >for service people.
|
| you're wrong on this one. I am against tipping service
people without good
| reason.
|
| >Sure does make for lousy service at restaurants, from
what I have noticed.
|
| wrong. again.
|
| >It may not be right for the management to pay poor, but
the tipping model
| >does make for much better service, believe it or not,
Martin.
|
| I love to tip (read: honor) for service better than
expected; and I spread
| the word about receiving good (better than usual) service.
But I don't tip
| just because I received what I paid for. For average
service at
| §pickyourchoice (restaurant, bar, lineguy, ...) I don't
want to give
| _extra_ money (read: honor his average service). And I
don't want to
| substitute his boss with poor wages (because the boss also
expects tips to
| be given).
|
| Do you tip the blonde braindead waitress serving your
plate with her finger
| in your meal? just because you always tip at restaurants
and because she
| had a big dumb grin on her face hiding her unskilled
serving 'technique'?
|
| #m
| --
| Lost the phone number of a good friend? Don't know whom
the kids called?
| Don't worry any longer! Call 1-800-2NSA ... we are here to
help you!

[karl gruber]

>
> Do you tip the blonde braindead waitress serving your plate with her
> finger
> in your meal? just because you always tip at restaurants and because she
> had a big dumb grin on her face hiding her unskilled serving 'technique'?
>
Depends on if she has a nice rack!


Karl
"curator" N185KG

[Matt Whiting]

B A R R Y wrote:

> On Sat, 27 May 2006 14:59:30 -0400, "Morgans"
> > wrote:
>
>
>>You'll have to excuse Martin. He is used to the European idea of no tips
>>for service people.
>>
>
>
> Which gets your food spit in (or worse) and allows you to wait much
> longer than necessary in NYC. <G>

Does spitting in NYC food make it taste any different? :-)


Matt

[Mortimer Schnerd, RN]

Martin Hotze wrote:
> Do you tip the blonde braindead waitress serving your plate with her finger
> in your meal? just because you always tip at restaurants and because she
> had a big dumb grin on her face hiding her unskilled serving 'technique'?


No, but I have hundreds of restaurants to choose from. There are only two
airports, and I'm already at the cheaper one.

As for tipping for average service, once the linemen figure out you tip, service
isn't necessarily average any more.



--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN

[Martin Hotze]

On Sat, 27 May 2006 15:22:27 -0500, "Jim Macklin"
> wrote:

>I always tip the waitress because they work for tips, they
>draw a salary about 1/2 the minimum wage because the law
>expects they will get minimum wage when the tips are
>included.

This is the aitress' problem, not mine. Sorry for being so unsocial and
still being European.

>I tip if they laugh at my silly jokes, if they have a nice
>smile and they have a good figure. I tip more if they do a
>good job, even if it is a guy or a fat girl.

So you tip also for lousy service and tip more for big boobs. I don't.

#m
--
Did you ever realize how much text fits in eighty columns? If you now consider
that a signature usually consists of up to four lines, this gives you enough
space to spread a tremendous amount of information with your messages. So seize
this opportunity and don't waste your signature with bull**** nobody will read.

[Martin Hotze]

On Sun, 28 May 2006 00:57:33 GMT, Mortimer Schnerd, RN wrote:

>As for tipping for average service, once the linemen figure out you tip, service
>isn't necessarily average any more.

you have to tip first to have him realize that there is more than average
service to give?

#m
--
Did you ever realize how much text fits in eighty columns? If you now consider
that a signature usually consists of up to four lines, this gives you enough
space to spread a tremendous amount of information with your messages. So seize
this opportunity and don't waste your signature with bull**** nobody will read.

[Ron Natalie]

Jessica wrote:
> karl gruber wrote:
>
>> Actually, in Oregon, it IS against the law to fuel your own airplane.
>> Can't fuel your own car either.
>
> Heh, even in New Jersey (no self service at service stations) you can
> fuel your own airplane, and the marina "line man" will hand you the
> nozzle to fill your boat too. Go figure.
>
> The only exception to the self service for road vehicles that I've found
> in NJ is the base gase station at McGuire.

That's because the airports and the marinas weren't the one that got
that law put in placed. Despite the bogus claims of safety, the
reason the law exists is because the small gas station owners banded
together with enough political clout to stave off the single
employee mega gas and go that they feared would put them out of business.

[Jonathan Simpson]

Ron Natalie wrote:

> Jessica wrote:
>
>> karl gruber wrote:
>>
>>> Actually, in Oregon, it IS against the law to fuel your own airplane.
>>> Can't fuel your own car either.
>>
>>
>> Heh, even in New Jersey (no self service at service stations) you can
>> fuel your own airplane, and the marina "line man" will hand you the
>> nozzle to fill your boat too. Go figure.
>>
>> The only exception to the self service for road vehicles that I've
>> found in NJ is the base gase station at McGuire.
>
>
> That's because the airports and the marinas weren't the one that got
> that law put in placed. Despite the bogus claims of safety, the
> reason the law exists is because the small gas station owners banded
> together with enough political clout to stave off the single
> employee mega gas and go that they feared would put them out of business.

Another weak attempt (this time by the NJ governor) was just made last
month to permit self serve filling stations in New Jersey. I think it
was just a trial program for the NJ Turnpike Authority roads' service
plazas. The politicians/governor backed down from this revolutionary
idea after they claimed to receive a large number of complaints from the
electorate who don't like to pump their gas. Others said that NJ
drivers are too stupid to pump their gas because they aren't used to it
and they could all blow themselves up. (I guess a large number of NJ
people who have cars never leave more than a tank's distance from the
small garden state---or are they admitting that full serve IS available
elsewhere?)

Apparently some believe that self serve / full serve are mutually
exclusive and that permitting self serve would cause all "full" service
to disappear. (Funny, plenty of stations around me (not in NJ nor OR)
offer "full" service and some focus on it exclusively.) Anyway I still
hate getting gas in that state because a lot of the time I have to wait
for the attendant to get off the cellphone with his girlfriend,
encounter difficulties with communicating the complex expression, "fill
up with regular gas, please," and then am treated with continuous
attempts to top-off/overfill the tank/destroy my evap emissions
canister, followed by gas running down my car's paint as the nozzle is
removed.

Pay at the pump is still a novelty item in NJ and often if you want to
use plastic you will have to wait for the attendant to come to you after
pumping, get your card, run off to the register/card skimmer, help some
other customers, talk to the girlfriend, come back for signature, etc.
If you are lucky to have pay at the pump, you can't use the dangerous
pump device so you will still have to give the card in advance to the
pumper and maybe they will give it right back to you or maybe they will
keep it on top of the pump for safekeeping during your tank filling.

The only thing that is keeping the system afloat is NJ's low gas tax so
that their full serve appears cheaper, but in reality it costs more
after adjusting the gas tax difference.

And you thought the FBO's lineman could be bad....

[Jim Macklin]

Flat bellies are more important than big boobs.



"Martin Hotze" > wrote in message
...
| On Sat, 27 May 2006 15:22:27 -0500, "Jim Macklin"
| > wrote:
|
| >I always tip the waitress because they work for tips,
they
| >draw a salary about 1/2 the minimum wage because the law
| >expects they will get minimum wage when the tips are
| >included.
|
| This is the aitress' problem, not mine. Sorry for being so
unsocial and
| still being European.
|
| >I tip if they laugh at my silly jokes, if they have a
nice
| >smile and they have a good figure. I tip more if they do
a
| >good job, even if it is a guy or a fat girl.
|
| So you tip also for lousy service and tip more for big
boobs. I don't.
|
| #m
| --
| Did you ever realize how much text fits in eighty columns?
If you now consider
| that a signature usually consists of up to four lines,
this gives you enough
| space to spread a tremendous amount of information with
your messages. So seize
| this opportunity and don't waste your signature with
bull**** nobody will read.

[Jim Macklin]

Another reason not to live in New Jersey.


"Jonathan Simpson" > wrote in message
...
| Ron Natalie wrote:
|
| > Jessica wrote:
| >
| >> karl gruber wrote:
| >>
| >>> Actually, in Oregon, it IS against the law to fuel
your own airplane.
| >>> Can't fuel your own car either.
| >>
| >>
| >> Heh, even in New Jersey (no self service at service
stations) you can
| >> fuel your own airplane, and the marina "line man" will
hand you the
| >> nozzle to fill your boat too. Go figure.
| >>
| >> The only exception to the self service for road
vehicles that I've
| >> found in NJ is the base gase station at McGuire.
| >
| >
| > That's because the airports and the marinas weren't the
one that got
| > that law put in placed. Despite the bogus claims of
safety, the
| > reason the law exists is because the small gas station
owners banded
| > together with enough political clout to stave off the
single
| > employee mega gas and go that they feared would put them
out of business.
|
| Another weak attempt (this time by the NJ governor) was
just made last
| month to permit self serve filling stations in New Jersey.
I think it
| was just a trial program for the NJ Turnpike Authority
roads' service
| plazas. The politicians/governor backed down from this
revolutionary
| idea after they claimed to receive a large number of
complaints from the
| electorate who don't like to pump their gas. Others said
that NJ
| drivers are too stupid to pump their gas because they
aren't used to it
| and they could all blow themselves up. (I guess a large
number of NJ
| people who have cars never leave more than a tank's
distance from the
| small garden state---or are they admitting that full serve
IS available
| elsewhere?)
|
| Apparently some believe that self serve / full serve are
mutually
| exclusive and that permitting self serve would cause all
"full" service
| to disappear. (Funny, plenty of stations around me (not
in NJ nor OR)
| offer "full" service and some focus on it exclusively.)
Anyway I still
| hate getting gas in that state because a lot of the time I
have to wait
| for the attendant to get off the cellphone with his
girlfriend,
| encounter difficulties with communicating the complex
expression, "fill
| up with regular gas, please," and then am treated with
continuous
| attempts to top-off/overfill the tank/destroy my evap
emissions
| canister, followed by gas running down my car's paint as
the nozzle is
| removed.
|
| Pay at the pump is still a novelty item in NJ and often if
you want to
| use plastic you will have to wait for the attendant to
come to you after
| pumping, get your card, run off to the register/card
skimmer, help some
| other customers, talk to the girlfriend, come back for
signature, etc.
| If you are lucky to have pay at the pump, you can't use
the dangerous
| pump device so you will still have to give the card in
advance to the
| pumper and maybe they will give it right back to you or
maybe they will
| keep it on top of the pump for safekeeping during your
tank filling.
|
| The only thing that is keeping the system afloat is NJ's
low gas tax so
| that their full serve appears cheaper, but in reality it
costs more
| after adjusting the gas tax difference.
|
| And you thought the FBO's lineman could be bad....

[Jonathan Simpson]

<entire requote snipped>
Jim Macklin wrote:

> Another reason not to live in New Jersey.

Or Oregon, same deal there with respect to full serve gasoline.

[Jim Macklin]

At least in Oregon the Second Amendment and other civil
rights are still in effect. But self-serve gas was a
technological problem until they invented the modern
electric fuel pump, about 1945. Before that you had to pump
a measured amount of fuel into the graduated glass
reservoir, which was then drained into the vehicle. Today's
modern, computer controlled pumps are a wonder of design.
BTW, do either NJ or OR require any special training in fire
safety, hazardous materials, plumbing or auto-mechanics and
do they certify and license "gas pump jockey's?"


--
The people think the Constitution protects their rights;
But government sees it as an obstacle to be overcome.
some support
http://www.usdoj.gov/olc/secondamendment2.htm
See http://www.fija.org/ more about your rights and duties.


"Jonathan Simpson" > wrote in
message ...
| <entire requote snipped>
| Jim Macklin wrote:
|
| > Another reason not to live in New Jersey.
|
| Or Oregon, same deal there with respect to full serve
gasoline.

[Dylan Smith]

On 2006-05-27, B A R R Y > wrote:
> On Sat, 27 May 2006 14:59:30 -0400, "Morgans"
> wrote:
>>
>>You'll have to excuse Martin. He is used to the European idea of no tips
>>for service people.
>
> Which gets your food spit in (or worse) and allows you to wait much
> longer than necessary in NYC. <G>

I have to wonder how NYC waiters know a patron isn't going to tip. I
thought tips were paid AFTER the meal, with the check? Perhaps they have
some time travel machine to see if the patron is a tightwad or not :-)

--
Yes, the Reply-To email address is valid.
Oolite-Linux: an Elite tribute: http://oolite-linux.berlios.de

[Bob Fry]

>>>>> "MH" == Martin Hotze > writes:

MH> On Fri, 26 May 2006 21:26:15 -0700, Bob Fry wrote:
>> And for the lineguys that fill the tanks properly...how 'bout a
>> nice tip?

MH> why? it is his job.

Because, Martin, in Europe even the lowest paid employee gets health
coverage, vacation, probably a decent wage, etc.

Here they get squat. That is American slang for little to nothing.

On overnight cross-country trips I tip the person who drives the car
to pick me up at the airport and takes me to the motel. Why? Because
maybe that way they'll be happy to get a call from some lone pilot
needing a ride into town, instead of ignoring the call.

General aviation has few friends in this country. A few bucks spread
around doesn't cost me anything in relation to flying costs, and may
generate a few more friends of small planes.

[Skywise]

Jonathan Simpson > wrote in news:ZcednduRVs1KK-
:

> <entire requote snipped>
> Jim Macklin wrote:
>
>> Another reason not to live in New Jersey.
>
> Or Oregon, same deal there with respect to full serve gasoline.
>

What happens if you insist on pumping the gas yourself?

There is no way I'd trust someone else to put gas into
my Harley. The technique required is similar to what I've
been reading of late for filling airplanes.

Brian
--
http://www.skywise711.com - Lasers, Seismology, Astronomy, Skepticism
Seismic FAQ: http://www.skywise711.com/SeismicFAQ/SeismicFAQ.html
Quake "predictions": http://www.skywise711.com/quakes/EQDB/index.html
Sed quis custodiet ipsos Custodes?

[Martin Hotze]

On Sun, 28 May 2006 12:31:31 -0700, Bob Fry wrote:

>Because, Martin, in Europe even the lowest paid employee gets health
>coverage, vacation, probably a decent wage, etc.

well, don't put whole Europe in one pot. Many countries here have squat,
too (like you call it). Even in the old countries there are more and more
people working on 2 jobs, govt paying less but taxing more, you get the
picture.

>Here they get squat. That is American slang for little to nothing.
>
>On overnight cross-country trips I tip the person who drives the car
>to pick me up at the airport and takes me to the motel. Why? Because
>maybe that way they'll be happy to get a call from some lone pilot
>needing a ride into town, instead of ignoring the call.

I see no problem here. It is a way to say "hey, thanks for coming out,
appreciate!"

>General aviation has few friends in this country. A few bucks spread
>around doesn't cost me anything in relation to flying costs, and may
>generate a few more friends of small planes.

#m
--
Did you ever realize how much text fits in eighty columns? If you now consider
that a signature usually consists of up to four lines, this gives you enough
space to spread a tremendous amount of information with your messages. So seize
this opportunity and don't waste your signature with bull**** nobody will read.

[Jonathan Simpson]

Skywise wrote:
> Jonathan Simpson > wrote in news:ZcednduRVs1KK-
> :
>
>
>> <entire requote snipped>
>>Jim Macklin wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Another reason not to live in New Jersey.
>>
>>Or Oregon, same deal there with respect to full serve gasoline.
>>
>
>
> What happens if you insist on pumping the gas yourself?
>
> There is no way I'd trust someone else to put gas into
> my Harley. The technique required is similar to what I've
> been reading of late for filling airplanes.

The response varies. Apparently they can get fined for allowing
non-Professional Dispensing Engineers to touch the gasoline pumping
machine apparatus. Attempting to do so can get you a very stern warning
or shout followed by who-knows-what. If the professional dispensing
engineer doesn't see you (not likely) or just doesn't give a damn you
may be in better luck. It's particularly frustrating when you just want
to fill a portable can and not have someone spill the gasoline you are
paying for all over the place.

[Roy Smith]

In article >,
Jonathan Simpson > wrote:

> The response varies. Apparently they can get fined for allowing
> non-Professional Dispensing Engineers to touch the gasoline pumping
> machine apparatus. Attempting to do so can get you a very stern warning
> or shout followed by who-knows-what. If the professional dispensing
> engineer doesn't see you (not likely) or just doesn't give a damn you
> may be in better luck. It's particularly frustrating when you just want
> to fill a portable can and not have someone spill the gasoline you are
> paying for all over the place.

I was in NJ the other day, and was happy to take advantage of the $0.25/gal
cheaper gas prices compared to NY, while the PDE got his hands dirty
instead of me.

What I really don't understand is the sign they had about filling cans. I
don't remember the exact wording, but it essentially said you can only
dispense gasoline into an approved metal container OR a container that's
red. So, as long as the container is red, it doesn't need to be approved?
I can drive up with a sheep's bladder or a hollowed-out gourd and fill that
with gas, as long as it's painted red? And I let the PDE do the
dispensing, of course.

[Bob Fry]

What happens in New Jersey or Oregon if you land an airplane after
hours and need to refuel? No good?

[kontiki]

Jonathan Simpson wrote:

> Others said that NJ
> drivers are too stupid to pump their gas because they aren't used to it
> and they could all blow themselves up.

Must be true based upon the politicians New Jersey residents continue to elect.

New Jersey is proof that the Peter Principle lives on.

[Skywise]

Jonathan Simpson > wrote in news:P4adnUR0JYzV0ufZRVn-
:

> Skywise wrote:
>> Jonathan Simpson > wrote in
news:ZcednduRVs1KK-
>> :
>>
>>
>>> <entire requote snipped>
>>>Jim Macklin wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>Another reason not to live in New Jersey.
>>>
>>>Or Oregon, same deal there with respect to full serve gasoline.
>>>
>>
>>
>> What happens if you insist on pumping the gas yourself?
>>
>> There is no way I'd trust someone else to put gas into
>> my Harley. The technique required is similar to what I've
>> been reading of late for filling airplanes.
>
> The response varies. Apparently they can get fined for allowing
> non-Professional Dispensing Engineers to touch the gasoline pumping
> machine apparatus. Attempting to do so can get you a very stern warning
> or shout followed by who-knows-what. If the professional dispensing
> engineer doesn't see you (not likely) or just doesn't give a damn you
> may be in better luck. It's particularly frustrating when you just want
> to fill a portable can and not have someone spill the gasoline you are
> paying for all over the place.

Interesting. The way the tank on my bike is designed you can't
shove the nozzle in very far. But even so, if you do shove it
in, the nozzle's automatic shut-off will trip long before the
tank is full, since you basically have the nozzle IN the tank.
Here in the Mexicican occupied Republik of Kalifornia we also
have vapor trap shrouds around the nozzle. I have to manually
pull the shroud back to get the gas to dispense. The shroud
has to be pushed back far enough to let the gas flow. Just
shoving the nozzle into my tank doesn't push it back far enough.

For those that know Harleys, I have an '86 Sporster 883 with the
stock peanut tank.

Since I'm not planning on riding my bike through Oregon on Jersy
any time soon, I guess I don't need to worry about. But it'd
be fun to test them on it anyway. :)

Brian
--
http://www.skywise711.com - Lasers, Seismology, Astronomy, Skepticism
Seismic FAQ: http://www.skywise711.com/SeismicFAQ/SeismicFAQ.html
Quake "predictions": http://www.skywise711.com/quakes/EQDB/index.html
Sed quis custodiet ipsos Custodes?

[Fred]

kontiki wrote:

> Jonathan Simpson wrote:
>
> > Others said that NJ
> > drivers are too stupid to pump their gas because they aren't used to it
> > and they could all blow themselves up.
>
> Must be true based upon the politicians New Jersey residents continue to elect.
>
> New Jersey is proof that the Peter Principle lives on.

Which policiticans are you referring to and who are your elected politicians?

-Fred who doesn't live in New Jersey

[Ben Hallert]

My aieport (77S, Creswell, OR) is all self serve. The silly car law to
which you refer does not apply to aircraft here.

Ben Hallert, PP-ASEL

[kontiki]

Fred wrote:
> Which policiticans are you referring to and who are your elected politicians?
>
> -Fred who doesn't live in New Jersey
>
Right off the top of my head I can think of the current Governor (Corzine)
and the one he replaced, as well as Lautenburg, who's been recycled a few times.

I was born and grew up in NJ but left after college and never looked back.
I've lived in the South most of my life... best thing I ever did.

[Jim Macklin]

ditto, except I never lived in NJ.



--
The people think the Constitution protects their rights;
But government sees it as an obstacle to be overcome.
some support
http://www.usdoj.gov/olc/secondamendment2.htm
See http://www.fija.org/ more about your rights and duties.


"kontiki" > wrote in message
...
| Fred wrote:
| > Which policiticans are you referring to and who are your
elected politicians?
| >
| > -Fred who doesn't live in New Jersey
| >
| Right off the top of my head I can think of the current
Governor (Corzine)
| and the one he replaced, as well as Lautenburg, who's been
recycled a few times.
|
| I was born and grew up in NJ but left after college and
never looked back.
| I've lived in the South most of my life... best thing I
ever did.
|

[Skylune]

by Ron Natalie > May 28, 2006 at 09:14 AM




That's because the airports and the marinas weren't the one that got
that law put in placed. Despite the bogus claims of safety, the
reason the law exists is because the small gas station owners banded
together with enough political clout to stave off the single
employee mega gas and go that they feared would put them out of business

<<

Maybe they have a Gas Station Owners and Pumpers Association to protect
their "rights."

[Al]

"B A R R Y" > wrote in message
...
> On Fri, 26 May 2006 17:43:32 -0700, "Bob Gardner" >
> wrote:
>
>>Tell you what I suggest for the future: Lay hands on enough rubber or soft
>>plastic to cover the area of the filler with a good margin around it, and
>>cut out a circle just a tad larger than the filler opening. Tell the
>>lineboy
>>to put it in place before inserting the nozzle. I'll bet you could go to a
>>second-hand store and pick up place mats, dish mats, etc that would do the
>>job for pennies.
>
> Some of my local airports keep these on the fuel island, usually made
> from cheesy rubber porch mats. One of 'em has a flaming Tweety Bird
> with "All Fired Up" embossed in the plastic. It was probably $1.99 at
> a junk store.
>
> If it's a dollar store item , it could always be left on the island
> (or truck) for the benefit of all.

RubberMaid dishmat. It has the little suction cups on the back to make
it anti-skid(an aviation term). They are also high temp tolerant(dish soap),
and will not leave marks on the airplane. A hole just big enough to get the
cap through(split at the edges to make cap removal easier), will protect the
area from fuel caps and the retaining chains. As a lineman, I was thrilled
to have these show up. When I fueled a classic it made me look like I knew
what I was doing.

Al

[Al]

"karl gruber" > wrote in message
...
> Actually, in Oregon, it IS against the law to fuel your own airplane.
> Can't fuel your own car either.
>
> Karl
> "Curator" N185KG

Really? Cite?

Al

[Jim Logajan]

"Al" > wrote:
> "karl gruber" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Actually, in Oregon, it IS against the law to fuel your own airplane.
>> Can't fuel your own car either.
>>
>> Karl
>> "Curator" N185KG
>
> Really? Cite?

I can provide a citation that shows motorcycle drivers and pilots at
certain airports are exempt from Oregon's fuelish law:

"Exemptions to Oregon’s fueling laws allow certain individuals and
businesses to dispense Class 1 flammable liquids (gasoline). Those
exemptions are:

1. Pilots may fuel their own aircraft at airports permitted by the
Oregon Department of Aviation.
2. Motorcyclists, operating their motorcycle, may handle the nozzle to
dispense gasoline. If a motorcyclist wants to fuel their motorcycle, the
retail station attendant is required to activate the pump and hand the
nozzle to the motorcyclist. When the fueling is complete, the motorcyclist
is required to hand the nozzle back to the attendant to deactivate the
dispenser. A motorcyclist may not activate or deactivate the fuel
dispensing devices."

From:
http://www.oregon.gov/OOHS/SFM/Cardlock_Program.shtml

[Jim Macklin]

Yep, they do, but it isn't called that.



"Skylune" > wrote in message
lkaboutaviation.com...
| by Ron Natalie > May 28, 2006 at 09:14 AM
|
|
|
|
| That's because the airports and the marinas weren't the
one that got
| that law put in placed. Despite the bogus claims of
safety, the
| reason the law exists is because the small gas station
owners banded
| together with enough political clout to stave off the
single
| employee mega gas and go that they feared would put them
out of business
|
| <<
|
| Maybe they have a Gas Station Owners and Pumpers
Association to protect
| their "rights."
|
|
|

[Skywise]

Jim Logajan > wrote in
:

> "Al" > wrote:
>> "karl gruber" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> Actually, in Oregon, it IS against the law to fuel your own airplane.
>>> Can't fuel your own car either.
>>>
>>> Karl
>>> "Curator" N185KG
>>
>> Really? Cite?
>
> I can provide a citation that shows motorcycle drivers and pilots at
> certain airports are exempt from Oregon's fuelish law:
>
> "Exemptions to Oregon’s fueling laws allow certain individuals and
> businesses to dispense Class 1 flammable liquids (gasoline). Those
> exemptions are:
>
> 1. Pilots may fuel their own aircraft at airports permitted by the
> Oregon Department of Aviation.
> 2. Motorcyclists, operating their motorcycle, may handle the nozzle
> to
> dispense gasoline. If a motorcyclist wants to fuel their motorcycle,
> the retail station attendant is required to activate the pump and hand
> the nozzle to the motorcyclist. When the fueling is complete, the
> motorcyclist is required to hand the nozzle back to the attendant to
> deactivate the dispenser. A motorcyclist may not activate or deactivate
> the fuel dispensing devices."
>
> From:
> http://www.oregon.gov/OOHS/SFM/Cardlock_Program.shtml
>

Thank you for that info. Although I like to turn off the pump
and then squeeze out the last drops before hanging up the nozzle.
I've seen enough fuel come out of the hose that way to get me
half a mile down the road!

Although I'd still be very reluctant to let anyone fuel my car
either. That'd be especially so if I had, say, a very expensive
car, something unique, a 'classic', etc....

Hell, what's the purpose of this insane law, anyway? Got any
info on that part?

Brian
--
http://www.skywise711.com - Lasers, Seismology, Astronomy, Skepticism
Seismic FAQ: http://www.skywise711.com/SeismicFAQ/SeismicFAQ.html
Quake "predictions": http://www.skywise711.com/quakes/EQDB/index.html
Sed quis custodiet ipsos Custodes?

[Mike Gaskins]

Skywise wrote:
> Hell, what's the purpose of this insane law, anyway? Got any
> info on that part?

It's for safety purposes. The general public does not have the
required skills and training to pump gasoline, ergo you need a
professional for the job to keep accidents from happening.
(/sarcasm_off)

I've seen some idiots before who would talk on the phone or smoke a
cigarette while pumping gas, but IMHO I find a state law telling me
that I'm not competent to pump gas very insulting.

Mike

[Jim Logajan]

Skywise > wrote:
> Hell, what's the purpose of this insane law, anyway? Got any
> info on that part?

The alleged reasons are itemized in "480.315 Policy" of the relevant
statutes, found here:

http://www.oregon.gov/OOHS/SFM/docs/Licensing_permits/cardlock/CardlockStatutes_Rules080505.pdf

That these issues have been shown to be false or grossly exaggerated in 48
other states has not appeared to phase the legislature or allegedly Oregon
voters (last time they were given the option to dump the law in 1982 the
voters said no thanks).

But getting back to aviation - at least pilots can now rest easy knowing
they can fuel their own aircraft when landing in Oregon.

[Gig 601XL Builder]

"Mike Gaskins" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Skywise wrote:
>> Hell, what's the purpose of this insane law, anyway? Got any
>> info on that part?
>
> It's for safety purposes. The general public does not have the
> required skills and training to pump gasoline, ergo you need a
> professional for the job to keep accidents from happening.
> (/sarcasm_off)
>
> I've seen some idiots before who would talk on the phone or smoke a
> cigarette while pumping gas, but IMHO I find a state law telling me
> that I'm not competent to pump gas very insulting.
>
> Mike
>

Safety my ass. It is a make work law.

BTW... Cell Phones really don't cause fires at gas stations.

[Jim Logajan]

"Gig 601XL Builder" <wrDOTgiaconaATcox.net> wrote:
> BTW... Cell Phones really don't cause fires at gas stations.

Snopes urban legends page on this subject agrees, but you'll find warning
stickers on some gas pumps:

http://www.snopes.com/autos/hazards/gasvapor.asp

[karl gruber]

Look it up yourself.


"Al" > wrote in message
...
>
> "karl gruber" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Actually, in Oregon, it IS against the law to fuel your own airplane.
>> Can't fuel your own car either.
>>
>> Karl
>> "Curator" N185KG
>
> Really? Cite?
>
> Al
>

[Skywise]

Jim Logajan > wrote in news:Xns97D38A5FCB7F6JamesLLugojcom@
216.168.3.30:

> Skywise > wrote:
>> Hell, what's the purpose of this insane law, anyway? Got any
>> info on that part?
>
> The alleged reasons are itemized in "480.315 Policy" of the relevant
> statutes, found here:
>
> http://www.oregon.gov/OOHS/SFM/docs/Licensing_permits/cardlock/CardlockStat
utes_Rules080505.pdf
>
> That these issues have been shown to be false or grossly exaggerated in 48
> other states has not appeared to phase the legislature or allegedly Oregon
> voters (last time they were given the option to dump the law in 1982 the
> voters said no thanks).
>
> But getting back to aviation - at least pilots can now rest easy knowing
> they can fuel their own aircraft when landing in Oregon.

Thank's for the link. My first thought at starting to read it was,
"HA! What a ****ing joke!". I'm considering sending an email to the
appropriate person in Oregon saying the same thing. :)

Brian
--
http://www.skywise711.com - Lasers, Seismology, Astronomy, Skepticism
Seismic FAQ: http://www.skywise711.com/SeismicFAQ/SeismicFAQ.html
Quake "predictions": http://www.skywise711.com/quakes/EQDB/index.html
Sed quis custodiet ipsos Custodes?

[Montblack]

>>> Actually, in Oregon, it IS against the law to fuel your own airplane.
>>> Can't fuel your own car either.

>> Really? Cite?

> Look it up yourself.


Hmm?

"...with 24 hour self-service 100LL and Jet-A fuel"

http://www.bakercityairport.com/
[Snips from the link]
Baker Aircraft is the Fixed Base Operator FBO at the Baker City, Oregon
airport, located in the northeastern section of the state.

We are a full-service Fixed Base Operator (FBO) with 24 hour self-service
100LL and Jet-A fuel, first-class maintenance, rental aircraft and charters.


Montblack

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

"Mike Gaskins" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Skywise wrote:
>> Hell, what's the purpose of this insane law, anyway? Got any
>> info on that part?
>
> It's for safety purposes. The general public does not have the
> required skills and training to pump gasoline, ergo you need a
> professional for the job to keep accidents from happening.
> (/sarcasm_off)
>
> I've seen some idiots before who would talk on the phone or smoke a
> cigarette while pumping gas, but IMHO I find a state law telling me
> that I'm not competent to pump gas very insulting.
>

And I saw someone drive off dragging the fuel hose behind...

--
Geoff
The Sea Hawk at Wow Way d0t Com
remove spaces and make the obvious substitutions to reply by mail
When immigration is outlawed, only outlaws will immigrate.

[John Ousterhout]

Montblack wrote:
>>>> Actually, in Oregon, it IS against the law to fuel your own airplane.
>>>> Can't fuel your own car either.

An exemption was passed for Aircraft Self-Service gas. But autos must
still wait for an attendant to fill their vehicle. Self-service fas has
been disapproved by the voters several times. It makes no sense to me,
but (we) Oregonians pride ourselves in being different.

- John Ousterhout -



>
>>> Really? Cite?
>
>> Look it up yourself.
>
>
> Hmm?
>
> "...with 24 hour self-service 100LL and Jet-A fuel"
>
> http://www.bakercityairport.com/
> [Snips from the link]
> Baker Aircraft is the Fixed Base Operator FBO at the Baker City, Oregon
> airport, located in the northeastern section of the state.
>
> We are a full-service Fixed Base Operator (FBO) with 24 hour self-service
> 100LL and Jet-A fuel, first-class maintenance, rental aircraft and
> charters.
>
>
> Montblack

[Roger]

On Fri, 26 May 2006 17:43:32 -0700, "Bob Gardner" >
wrote:

>Tell you what I suggest for the future: Lay hands on enough rubber or soft
>plastic to cover the area of the filler with a good margin around it, and
>cut out a circle just a tad larger than the filler opening. Tell the lineboy
>to put it in place before inserting the nozzle. I'll bet you could go to a
>second-hand store and pick up place mats, dish mats, etc that would do the
>job for pennies.

I've stopped over at a number of good sized airports and most of the
FBOs used a matt like this to protect the paint. At Tyson McGee (sp?)
they even rolled out a carpet for us to walk on. They did that for
every plane stopping over. That was a few years ago, so I wonder if
they still do it.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

[B A R R Y]

Jim Logajan wrote:
> "Gig 601XL Builder" <wrDOTgiaconaATcox.net> wrote:
>> BTW... Cell Phones really don't cause fires at gas stations.
>
> Snopes urban legends page on this subject agrees, but you'll find warning
> stickers on some gas pumps:
>

If you were a lawyer for a gas station, would you recommend the sticker?

I would. <G>

[Gig 601XL Builder]

"John Ousterhout" > wrote in
message news:8k7fg.755756$084.747941@attbi_s22...

> An exemption was passed for Aircraft Self-Service gas. But autos must
> still wait for an attendant to fill their vehicle. Self-service fas has
> been disapproved by the voters several times. It makes no sense to me,
> but (we) Oregonians pride ourselves in being different.
>
> - John Ousterhout -

Well loose the pride. You're like New Jersey.

[Maule Driver]

Everything you said + the only way to completely avoid such stuff is to
insist on doing it yourself.

As a taildragger guy, I long ago realized that if I didn't take care of
all ramp movements that the 'new guy' would end up puncturing my fabric
or worse. Heck, at larger airports I often seem to be the first
taildragger they've seen. e.g. "hey, you know our tow bar doesn't fit
on that" "yep, that's why I have to taxi it over to the weeds covered
tie downs"

Mortimer Schnerd, RN wrote:
> Kyle Boatright wrote:
>
>>How do the rest of you deal with careless linemen? The kind who scratch
>>your airplane or chip the paint because they are either careless or have not
>>been properly trained on how to avoid damaging aircraft when refueling 'em.
>
>
>
>
> I've done my share of ramp ratting and I'll remind you the FBO isn't paying that
> guy enough to live on. OTOH, most of the guys on the ramp like aviation and
> wouldn't knowingly damage an aircraft. I'd say education would be the answer
> you're looking for.
>
> I congratulate you on keeping your temper. What many people never seem to
> consider is what motivates others. When somebody shows me their ass, I tend to
> look for ways to pay them back. When somebody's nice to me and I've screwed up,
> I look for ways to make it up to them. You definitely want to be in the latter
> category.
>
>
>

[Skywise]

John Ousterhout > wrote in
news:8k7fg.755756$084.747941@attbi_s22:

> Montblack wrote:
>>>>> Actually, in Oregon, it IS against the law to fuel your own airplane.
>>>>> Can't fuel your own car either.
>
> An exemption was passed for Aircraft Self-Service gas. But autos must
> still wait for an attendant to fill their vehicle. Self-service fas has
> been disapproved by the voters several times. It makes no sense to me,
> but (we) Oregonians pride ourselves in being different.

Being lazy bums that can't pump their own gas isn't much to be
proud of. (speaking generally, not to you specifcally)

Brian
--
http://www.skywise711.com - Lasers, Seismology, Astronomy, Skepticism
Seismic FAQ: http://www.skywise711.com/SeismicFAQ/SeismicFAQ.html
Quake "predictions": http://www.skywise711.com/quakes/EQDB/index.html
Sed quis custodiet ipsos Custodes?

[LWG]

One of the funniest moments I've had at a gas station was watching a car
full of people pull up to a self-serve pump (in Maryland). The two men and
two women got out of the car, and circled the pump like the hominids in
"2001" circling the monolith. One of the guys came up and asked me how to
use the pump, and I showed them. The guy looked at me and said
apologetically, "We're from Jersey." I thought at first he was confessing
to being stupid, and then I remembered....

"Gig 601XL Builder" <wrDOTgiaconaATcox.net> wrote in message
...
>
> "John Ousterhout" > wrote in
> message news:8k7fg.755756$084.747941@attbi_s22...
>
>> An exemption was passed for Aircraft Self-Service gas. But autos must
>> still wait for an attendant to fill their vehicle. Self-service fas has
>> been disapproved by the voters several times. It makes no sense to me,
>> but (we) Oregonians pride ourselves in being different.
>>
>> - John Ousterhout -
>
> Well loose the pride. You're like New Jersey.
>
>