Interesting F-100 story....

[Greasy Rider @ invalid.com]

The F-100 had an interesting ground starting option, a large chamber
that received a large gas generating cartridge. When ignited by
electrical current, the expanding gas from the black powder-like
pyrotechnic cartridge drove a starter turbine which brought the engine
up to a self-sustaining rpm via a drive system. This eliminated the
need for heavy and bulky ground starting units, but the starter
cartridge spewed out a characteristic dense cloud of choking black
smoke, which was often mistaken by inexperienced ground crews for an
engine fire.

The powder charge for the ground start came in a big sealed can, and
on opening and extracting the cartridge, you'd find two small metal
tabs on the bottom of the cartridge. These tabs were the electrical
contact that fired the cartridge when the pilot moved the throttle
outboard on start, before bringing the throttle forward. As soon as a
tiny RPM registered on the tach, you brought the throttle around the
horn to feed fuel and engine ignition to the rapidly-building engine
speed.

Sometimes the big metal receptacle that held the gas generator
cartridge would get so dirty from repeated use that the metal tabs
wouldn't make contact. Then the cartridge would refuse to fire, and
the crew chief would give the starter receptacle a good healthy whack
with a chock, usually curing the powder charge of any reluctance to
fire. We'd often take a can holding a starter cartridge with us as an
alternative starting means on cross-country.

The story is told, one of few that I didn't witness, of John Green
going into Memphis, Millington NAS or MCAS, in an F-100 back in the
very early seventies. He was met by a couple of young Marine ground
crewmen, who asked what kind of plane he was flying. "F-100 Super
Sabre" in reply only got him further puzzled looks. One of the ground
crew said, "Sir, I don't think we have tech data on this bird. What do
you need for start, a huffer or just electrical"?

"Neither one", John came back. "If I can get, oh, about six guys to
give me a push to start me rolling, I'll just pop the clutch and get
the engine started that way." More and more doubtful looks! "Yes sir"
was the comeback. What else would a young Marine say?

The Hun was pretty finely balanced on the two main gear struts. When
you tapped the brakes, the nose strut compressed so much that the nose
took a dip, just like the hood of a car used to when being
clutch-started. So now six Marines are standing at the ready, still
doubtful but not about to question an Officer on procedure. "Just get
me going at about a fast walk", John instructed. "I'll wave you all
clear when we're fast enough, pop the clutch and be on my way. Thanks
for the good turnaround!"

Six Marines pushing, they quickly get the bird up to a brisk-stepping
speed. John waves his arms, and the Marines warily stand well clear.
The nose dips as John "pops the clutch", there is a big cloud of
choking smoke as the engine whines to life, and off goes Captain Green
to the takeoff end of the runway, leaving six puzzled Marines in his
wake.


------

Don't know if it is true but really funny.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

<Greasy Rider @ invalid.com> wrote in message
...
>
> The F-100 had an interesting ground starting option, a large chamber
> that received a large gas generating cartridge. When ignited by
> electrical current, the expanding gas from the black powder-like
> pyrotechnic cartridge drove a starter turbine which brought the engine
> up to a self-sustaining rpm via a drive system. This eliminated the
> need for heavy and bulky ground starting units, but the starter
> cartridge spewed out a characteristic dense cloud of choking black
> smoke, which was often mistaken by inexperienced ground crews for an
> engine fire.
>
> The powder charge for the ground start came in a big sealed can, and
> on opening and extracting the cartridge, you'd find two small metal
> tabs on the bottom of the cartridge. These tabs were the electrical
> contact that fired the cartridge when the pilot moved the throttle
> outboard on start, before bringing the throttle forward. As soon as a
> tiny RPM registered on the tach, you brought the throttle around the
> horn to feed fuel and engine ignition to the rapidly-building engine
> speed.
>
> Sometimes the big metal receptacle that held the gas generator
> cartridge would get so dirty from repeated use that the metal tabs
> wouldn't make contact. Then the cartridge would refuse to fire, and
> the crew chief would give the starter receptacle a good healthy whack
> with a chock, usually curing the powder charge of any reluctance to
> fire. We'd often take a can holding a starter cartridge with us as an
> alternative starting means on cross-country.
>
> The story is told, one of few that I didn't witness, of John Green
> going into Memphis, Millington NAS or MCAS, in an F-100 back in the
> very early seventies. He was met by a couple of young Marine ground
> crewmen, who asked what kind of plane he was flying. "F-100 Super
> Sabre" in reply only got him further puzzled looks. One of the ground
> crew said, "Sir, I don't think we have tech data on this bird. What do
> you need for start, a huffer or just electrical"?
>
> "Neither one", John came back. "If I can get, oh, about six guys to
> give me a push to start me rolling, I'll just pop the clutch and get
> the engine started that way." More and more doubtful looks! "Yes sir"
> was the comeback. What else would a young Marine say?
>
> The Hun was pretty finely balanced on the two main gear struts. When
> you tapped the brakes, the nose strut compressed so much that the nose
> took a dip, just like the hood of a car used to when being
> clutch-started. So now six Marines are standing at the ready, still
> doubtful but not about to question an Officer on procedure. "Just get
> me going at about a fast walk", John instructed. "I'll wave you all
> clear when we're fast enough, pop the clutch and be on my way. Thanks
> for the good turnaround!"
>
> Six Marines pushing, they quickly get the bird up to a brisk-stepping
> speed. John waves his arms, and the Marines warily stand well clear.
> The nose dips as John "pops the clutch", there is a big cloud of
> choking smoke as the engine whines to life, and off goes Captain Green
> to the takeoff end of the runway, leaving six puzzled Marines in his
> wake.
>
>
> ------
>
> Don't know if it is true but really funny.
>

Good story. Cartridge starts were not an F-100 exclusive.

[Jim Carriere]

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
> <Greasy Rider @ invalid.com> wrote in message
> ...
>> The F-100 had an interesting ground starting option, a large chamber
>> that received a large gas generating cartridge. When ignited by
>> electrical current, the expanding gas from the black powder-like
>> pyrotechnic cartridge drove a starter turbine which brought the engine
>> up to a self-sustaining rpm via a drive system. This eliminated the
>> need for heavy and bulky ground starting units, but the starter
>> cartridge spewed out a characteristic dense cloud of choking black
>> smoke, which was often mistaken by inexperienced ground crews for an
>> engine fire.
>>
>> The powder charge for the ground start came in a big sealed can, and
>> on opening and extracting the cartridge, you'd find two small metal
>> tabs on the bottom of the cartridge. These tabs were the electrical
>> contact that fired the cartridge when the pilot moved the throttle
>> outboard on start, before bringing the throttle forward. As soon as a
>> tiny RPM registered on the tach, you brought the throttle around the
>> horn to feed fuel and engine ignition to the rapidly-building engine
>> speed.
>>
>> Sometimes the big metal receptacle that held the gas generator
>> cartridge would get so dirty from repeated use that the metal tabs
>> wouldn't make contact. Then the cartridge would refuse to fire, and
>> the crew chief would give the starter receptacle a good healthy whack
>> with a chock, usually curing the powder charge of any reluctance to
>> fire. We'd often take a can holding a starter cartridge with us as an
>> alternative starting means on cross-country.
>>
>> The story is told, one of few that I didn't witness, of John Green
>> going into Memphis, Millington NAS or MCAS, in an F-100 back in the
>> very early seventies. He was met by a couple of young Marine ground
>> crewmen, who asked what kind of plane he was flying. "F-100 Super
>> Sabre" in reply only got him further puzzled looks. One of the ground
>> crew said, "Sir, I don't think we have tech data on this bird. What do
>> you need for start, a huffer or just electrical"?
>>
>> "Neither one", John came back. "If I can get, oh, about six guys to
>> give me a push to start me rolling, I'll just pop the clutch and get
>> the engine started that way." More and more doubtful looks! "Yes sir"
>> was the comeback. What else would a young Marine say?
>>
>> The Hun was pretty finely balanced on the two main gear struts. When
>> you tapped the brakes, the nose strut compressed so much that the nose
>> took a dip, just like the hood of a car used to when being
>> clutch-started. So now six Marines are standing at the ready, still
>> doubtful but not about to question an Officer on procedure. "Just get
>> me going at about a fast walk", John instructed. "I'll wave you all
>> clear when we're fast enough, pop the clutch and be on my way. Thanks
>> for the good turnaround!"
>>
>> Six Marines pushing, they quickly get the bird up to a brisk-stepping
>> speed. John waves his arms, and the Marines warily stand well clear.
>> The nose dips as John "pops the clutch", there is a big cloud of
>> choking smoke as the engine whines to life, and off goes Captain Green
>> to the takeoff end of the runway, leaving six puzzled Marines in his
>> wake.
>>
>>
>> ------
>>
>> Don't know if it is true but really funny.
>>
>
> Good story. Cartridge starts were not an F-100 exclusive.

Yep, great story. I've heard a similar one but it was about starting an
H-46 APU instead. Which is to say it may not have happened in either
type of aircraft, it may be a sea story, maybe it happened in either or
both aircraft, but I like to believe it did happen at some time and not
matter what it's damn funny!

[Ricardo]

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
> <Greasy Rider @ invalid.com> wrote in message
> ...
>
>>The F-100 had an interesting ground starting option, a large chamber
>>that received a large gas generating cartridge. When ignited by
>>electrical current, the expanding gas from the black powder-like
>>pyrotechnic cartridge drove a starter turbine which brought the engine
>>up to a self-sustaining rpm via a drive system. This eliminated the
>>need for heavy and bulky ground starting units, but the starter
>>cartridge spewed out a characteristic dense cloud of choking black
>>smoke, which was often mistaken by inexperienced ground crews for an
>>engine fire.
>>
>>The powder charge for the ground start came in a big sealed can, and
>>on opening and extracting the cartridge, you'd find two small metal
>>tabs on the bottom of the cartridge. These tabs were the electrical
>>contact that fired the cartridge when the pilot moved the throttle
>>outboard on start, before bringing the throttle forward. As soon as a
>>tiny RPM registered on the tach, you brought the throttle around the
>>horn to feed fuel and engine ignition to the rapidly-building engine
>>speed.
>>
>>Sometimes the big metal receptacle that held the gas generator
>>cartridge would get so dirty from repeated use that the metal tabs
>>wouldn't make contact. Then the cartridge would refuse to fire, and
>>the crew chief would give the starter receptacle a good healthy whack
>>with a chock, usually curing the powder charge of any reluctance to
>>fire. We'd often take a can holding a starter cartridge with us as an
>>alternative starting means on cross-country.
>>
>>The story is told, one of few that I didn't witness, of John Green
>>going into Memphis, Millington NAS or MCAS, in an F-100 back in the
>>very early seventies. He was met by a couple of young Marine ground
>>crewmen, who asked what kind of plane he was flying. "F-100 Super
>>Sabre" in reply only got him further puzzled looks. One of the ground
>>crew said, "Sir, I don't think we have tech data on this bird. What do
>>you need for start, a huffer or just electrical"?
>>
>>"Neither one", John came back. "If I can get, oh, about six guys to
>>give me a push to start me rolling, I'll just pop the clutch and get
>>the engine started that way." More and more doubtful looks! "Yes sir"
>>was the comeback. What else would a young Marine say?
>>
>>The Hun was pretty finely balanced on the two main gear struts. When
>>you tapped the brakes, the nose strut compressed so much that the nose
>>took a dip, just like the hood of a car used to when being
>>clutch-started. So now six Marines are standing at the ready, still
>>doubtful but not about to question an Officer on procedure. "Just get
>>me going at about a fast walk", John instructed. "I'll wave you all
>>clear when we're fast enough, pop the clutch and be on my way. Thanks
>>for the good turnaround!"
>>
>>Six Marines pushing, they quickly get the bird up to a brisk-stepping
>>speed. John waves his arms, and the Marines warily stand well clear.
>>The nose dips as John "pops the clutch", there is a big cloud of
>>choking smoke as the engine whines to life, and off goes Captain Green
>>to the takeoff end of the runway, leaving six puzzled Marines in his
>>wake.
>>
>>
>>------
>>
>>Don't know if it is true but really funny.
>>
>
>
> Good story. Cartridge starts were not an F-100 exclusive.
>
>
No, they were also used on the licence built English Electric Canberra -
Martin B57 - and the smoke generated, very dense and very black, was
amazing - enough to put the fear of God into you, if you'd never seen it
before.

Ricardo
--
"Quick to judge, quick to anger, slow to understand
Ignorance and prejudice, and fear, walk hand in hand ..."

[Ed Rasimus]

On Thu, 01 Jun 2006 20:10:59 GMT, Ricardo >
wrote:

>
>
>Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
>> <Greasy Rider @ invalid.com> wrote in message
>> ...
>>
>>>The F-100 had an interesting ground starting option, a large chamber
>>>that received a large gas generating cartridge. When ignited by
>>>electrical current, the expanding gas from the black powder-like
>>>pyrotechnic cartridge drove a starter turbine which brought the engine
>>>up to a self-sustaining rpm via a drive system. This eliminated the
>>>need for heavy and bulky ground starting units, but the starter
>>>cartridge spewed out a characteristic dense cloud of choking black
>>>smoke, which was often mistaken by inexperienced ground crews for an
>>>engine fire.
>>
>> Good story. Cartridge starts were not an F-100 exclusive.
>>
>>
>No, they were also used on the licence built English Electric Canberra -
> Martin B57 - and the smoke generated, very dense and very black, was
>amazing - enough to put the fear of God into you, if you'd never seen it
>before.
>
>Ricardo

And we used them exclusively at Korat during my F-105 tour for every
start, every day. We also used them on nuke alert for the F-4. Lots of
airplanes had cart start capability.

But, gotta give credit to the Hun driver for some fast thinking,
creative fun and leaving those transient alert types with something to
think about. (Seriously though, I've got to figure that anyone who was
allowed on the TA ramp to fuel, turn and launch jets would have been
hard to fool. Makes a good story though.)

Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
www.thunderchief.org
www.thundertales.blogspot.com

[WaltBJ]

Carts starts. I was at Bitburg when the Air Defense Zulu alert F4E got
a hot scramble. The favorite scramble start routine then was to fire
both carts at once and move both throttles forward for a simultaneous
start and thus get off quicker. Alas, one cart did not fire. The crew,
full of adrenalin, did not realize this until well past normal
liftoff.(Usually about 4000 feet of roll). Being loaded with 3
external tanks, the AC decided to lighten ship and punched them off,
thus getting airborne well before the end of the 8000 foot runway. He
airstarted the dead engine and pressed on. This resulted in an absolute
veto on 'double bang' starts and renewed emphasis on checking the
engine instruments before takeoff. And an 'aw s--t" award to the crew.
Walt BJ

[Ed Rasimus]

On 1 Jun 2006 21:22:40 -0700, "WaltBJ" >
wrote:

>Carts starts. I was at Bitburg when the Air Defense Zulu alert F4E got
>a hot scramble. The favorite scramble start routine then was to fire
>both carts at once and move both throttles forward for a simultaneous
>start and thus get off quicker. Alas, one cart did not fire. The crew,
>full of adrenalin, did not realize this until well past normal
>liftoff.(Usually about 4000 feet of roll). Being loaded with 3
>external tanks, the AC decided to lighten ship and punched them off,
>thus getting airborne well before the end of the 8000 foot runway. He
>airstarted the dead engine and pressed on. This resulted in an absolute
>veto on 'double bang' starts and renewed emphasis on checking the
>engine instruments before takeoff. And an 'aw s--t" award to the crew.
>Walt BJ

Since there's no "supervisor" in the cockpit with you, there's no way
to enforce that policy. Seriously, the real problem was the
head-up-and-locked nose gunner who didn't watch the engine gauges
after hitting the switches as well as the WSO who didn't catch a
clue-bird. Failure to make 1000 foot line-speed would have been
another indicator. There's really no solution for aircrew screw-ups.

Related story: Sitting Victor (15-minute) alert on an ORI at Incirlik,
got scrambled with a "shape" (not a real bomb) for an "elephant walk"
(all the alert birds simulate a launch up to the arming area and
runway but don't fly). One cart fired, other didn't. Taxied with one
engine and any time I saw an IG type watching would jazz the throttle
to give me some momentum taxiing past so that he wouldn't notice the
slack nozzle on the dead engine. Poor taxi technique, but it looked
like an "up" airplane as far as the inspection was concerned.

If you ain't cheatin' you ain't trying.


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
www.thunderchief.org
www.thundertales.blogspot.com