Newbie Q: Blanik L-23 Landing

[Mitty]

I am learning to fly a Blanik L-23 and my instructor is telling me to
"fly it on" with no flare.

1) I am commercial/instrument rated with somewhere north of 1000 ASEL
and a few ASES landings in my logbook. I am _programmed_ to flare.
:-) To not flare is very hard for me.

2) The Blanik AFM refers to flaring on landing.

3) The instructor is very concerned about the fragility of the tail
wheel, so possibly this is the reason for his technique.

So ... to flare or not? When solo, I mean.

BTW, this is pretty neat stuff. I wish my first few hours of training
had been in a glider. Certainly I would have learned to use the
rudder much sooner!

[[email protected]]

This is one of those areas, such as hard vs. soft tow release, square
vs. cut corner pattern, side slip vs. crab, how to remove slack in tow
line, etc. where every instructor is likely to have a different opinion
on what is the right way to do it. Best to just follow your intructors
orders, then do what you want after you get your ticket.


Mitty wrote:
> I am learning to fly a Blanik L-23 and my instructor is telling me to
> "fly it on" with no flare.
>
> 1) I am commercial/instrument rated with somewhere north of 1000 ASEL
> and a few ASES landings in my logbook. I am _programmed_ to flare.
> :-) To not flare is very hard for me.
>
> 2) The Blanik AFM refers to flaring on landing.
>
> 3) The instructor is very concerned about the fragility of the tail
> wheel, so possibly this is the reason for his technique.
>
> So ... to flare or not? When solo, I mean.
>
> BTW, this is pretty neat stuff. I wish my first few hours of training
> had been in a glider. Certainly I would have learned to use the
> rudder much sooner!

[snoop]

Maybe his interpretation of "no flare" just means level off, then
settle onto the runway. Maybe.
Oh, yeah this IS great stuff. Pure mainlining. Have fun, start
shopping!

Mitty wrote:
> I am learning to fly a Blanik L-23 and my instructor is telling me to
> "fly it on" with no flare.
>
> 1) I am commercial/instrument rated with somewhere north of 1000 ASEL
> and a few ASES landings in my logbook. I am _programmed_ to flare.
> :-) To not flare is very hard for me.
>
> 2) The Blanik AFM refers to flaring on landing.
>
> 3) The instructor is very concerned about the fragility of the tail
> wheel, so possibly this is the reason for his technique.
>
> So ... to flare or not? When solo, I mean.
>
> BTW, this is pretty neat stuff. I wish my first few hours of training
> had been in a glider. Certainly I would have learned to use the
> rudder much sooner!

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

"Mitty" > wrote in message
...
>I am learning to fly a Blanik L-23 and my instructor is telling me to "fly
>it on" with no flare.
>
> 1) I am commercial/instrument rated with somewhere north of 1000 ASEL and
> a few ASES landings in my logbook. I am _programmed_ to flare. :-) To
> not flare is very hard for me.
>
> 2) The Blanik AFM refers to flaring on landing.
>
> 3) The instructor is very concerned about the fragility of the tail wheel,
> so possibly this is the reason for his technique.
>
> So ... to flare or not? When solo, I mean.
>
> BTW, this is pretty neat stuff. I wish my first few hours of training had
> been in a glider. Certainly I would have learned to use the rudder much
> sooner!

Could he be concerned that you will do a tailwheel first landing if you
attempt a more tricycle gear type "full stall" landing (I assume that is
what you are used to doing)? Perhaps he is shooting for something like a
"wheel landing" where you touch down above the stall speed on the mains of a
taildragger? That still involves a flare - but not as much, and not holding
off until you get close to the stall speed - just level it off and set it
down. I assume that you still pretty much slow the descent rate down before
touchdown?

--
Geoff
The Sea Hawk at Wow Way d0t Com
remove spaces and make the obvious substitutions to reply by mail
When immigration is outlawed, only outlaws will immigrate.

[Frank Whiteley]

Mitty wrote:
> I am learning to fly a Blanik L-23 and my instructor is telling me to
> "fly it on" with no flare.
>
> 1) I am commercial/instrument rated with somewhere north of 1000 ASEL
> and a few ASES landings in my logbook. I am _programmed_ to flare.
> :-) To not flare is very hard for me.
>
> 2) The Blanik AFM refers to flaring on landing.
>
> 3) The instructor is very concerned about the fragility of the tail
> wheel, so possibly this is the reason for his technique.
>
> So ... to flare or not? When solo, I mean.
>
> BTW, this is pretty neat stuff. I wish my first few hours of training
> had been in a glider. Certainly I would have learned to use the
> rudder much sooner!

The main answer is 3. The rubber 'donuts' in the tail wheel fail from
rough contact and banging by overbraking on the main gear putting the
glider on its nose. The little ground contact bubble under the nose is
likely scraped also. If the donuts fail, the resulting collapse may
damage the surround which is relatively expensive. The donuts should
be inspected daily and after each tail slam. The instructor is
postponing the inevitable.

In general, two-pointing your landing is preferred and low energy
landings when landing out on XC flights are highly desirable.

Soaring is the domain of the seeker. Words mostly fail to convey the
experience to the uninitiated. If you keep seeking, you'll explore
places and see sights most uncommon. Welcome aboard.

Frank Whiteley

[Bill Daniels]

"Mitty" > wrote in message
...
>I am learning to fly a Blanik L-23 and my instructor is telling me to "fly
>it on" with no flare.
>
> 1) I am commercial/instrument rated with somewhere north of 1000 ASEL and
> a few ASES landings in my logbook. I am _programmed_ to flare. :-) To
> not flare is very hard for me.
>
> 2) The Blanik AFM refers to flaring on landing.
>
> 3) The instructor is very concerned about the fragility of the tail wheel,
> so possibly this is the reason for his technique.
>
> So ... to flare or not? When solo, I mean.
>
> BTW, this is pretty neat stuff. I wish my first few hours of training had
> been in a glider. Certainly I would have learned to use the rudder much
> sooner!

Almost every aircraft will have its own "best" runway contact attitude. The
L-23 works best with a "wheel" landing in which the fragile tailwheel
doesn't touch down until the glider has slowed its rollout considerably.
Your instructor has the right idea.

In the case of most gliders and the L-23 in particular, 'flare' means to
simply arrest the decent so the glider is skimming along just above the
runway in level flight while losing airspeed. As airspeed is lost, the nose
must be raised (AOA increased) to maintain height a few inches above the
runway surface. The runway contact attitude (and the touchdown airspeed) is
determined by how much the nose is raised before the wheel is allowed to
touch the runway surface.

In the case of the L-23, this isn't much. To get a picture of this
attitude, strap in and have someone lift the tailwheel a few inches above
the runway. Don't raise the nose more than this before allowing the main
wheel to touch down.


Bill Daniels

[Pete Brown]

Mitty wrote:
> I am learning to fly a Blanik L-23 and my instructor is telling me to
> "fly it on" with no flare.

Listen to the instructor.

> 1) I am commercial/instrument rated with somewhere north of 1000 ASEL
> and a few ASES landings in my logbook. I am _programmed_ to flare.
> :-) To not flare is very hard for me.

Well learn a new technique...Its easy and fun. The normal
landing is similar to a wheel landing in a conventional
(tail wheel) airplane.

>
> 2) The Blanik AFM refers to flaring on landing.

Yes but read further on and remember that sometimes Czech,
Chinese, or Japanese translations miss some of the meaning.
The manual goes on to say that you should touch down on the
main gear first and then let the tail wheel come down
(gently.)

The easy way to do that is to just ease back enough to stop
the sink just before you touch down. Then, once its down,
hold the stick full back, especially if you think you will
need to use the wheel brake.

>
> 3) The instructor is very concerned about the fragility of the tail
> wheel, so possibly this is the reason for his technique.

Yes. The old Blanik L-13s were worse but you still need to
try be easy on the tail wheel.
>
> So ... to flare or not? When solo, I mean.

No need to flare at all, just arrest the sink rate and
touch down on the main wheel. The exception would be if you
have to get into a short field in which case you will need a
minimum airspeed (energy) touch down and landing so you can
get stopped. In that case, the tail wheel may touch down
first. But that's the exception.


--

Peter D. Brown
http://home.gci.net/~pdb/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/akmtnsoaring/

[Fish]

Just a thought...............I noticed your remark about wishing you
had learnt to use a rudder before? Di you by chance learn on a
hang-glider.
A "flare" in a hg is NOT the same thing when the terminology is
applyied to gliders.
You don't want to raise the nose to get airspeed down and then "stall"
it on...like you would in a hangie.
Cheers
Mark

[David Walsh]

Mitty,

I just got done looking through the Pilots Notes for the L-13, looking
for a 'wheel landing' recommendation. I couldn't find it, but I feel
it's in there some where. I can tell you the POH for L-33
specifically states to 'land on the main wheel before the tail wheel'.

I think in general, Let products are designed for 'wheel landing'.

I can tell you from experience, if you flair an L-13 or an L-33 close to
the ground, you are very likely to strike the the tail boom on the
ground, very hard, way before the main wheel.

Sincerely,
David Walsh


Mitty wrote:
> I am learning to fly a Blanik L-23 and my instructor is telling me to
> "fly it on" with no flare.
>
> 1) I am commercial/instrument rated with somewhere north of 1000 ASEL
> and a few ASES landings in my logbook. I am _programmed_ to flare.
> :-) To not flare is very hard for me.
>
> 2) The Blanik AFM refers to flaring on landing.
>
> 3) The instructor is very concerned about the fragility of the tail
> wheel, so possibly this is the reason for his technique.
>
> So ... to flare or not? When solo, I mean.
>
> BTW, this is pretty neat stuff. I wish my first few hours of training
> had been in a glider. Certainly I would have learned to use the rudder
> much sooner!

[Jeffrey Banks]

Hi,

I have ripped two tailwheels off of Blanik's over the years. It is a
weakness of the design as you normaly should be able to do a nice "two
point" low energy landing with a flare to the landing attitude.
The POH operational procedure ammends this practice to do a "wheel
landing" This is a common landing for tail wheel airplanes, and if you
get a chance to fly a Cub or similar tailwheel airplane you will get
the idea.

The Blanik is a great trainer in many ways. There is an improved
tailwheel on the new L-23's that is fixed and does not caster. The AF
Academy has them in this configuration. With the improved normal
tailwheel. I think normal low energy landings could be taught.

Be gentel with the tailwheel and don't push it backward over rough
ground.

See Saftey Advisory 01-1 at

http://www.soaringsafety.org/prevention/advisory.html

Jeff Banks

[Mitty]

Thanks, everyone. I will work diligently this weekend to "fly it on"
for a wheel-type landing.


On 5/30/2006 8:26 PM, Mitty wrote the following:
> I am learning to fly a Blanik L-23 and my instructor is telling me to
> "fly it on" with no flare.
>
> 1) I am commercial/instrument rated with somewhere north of 1000 ASEL
> and a few ASES landings in my logbook. I am _programmed_ to flare.
> :-) To not flare is very hard for me.
>
> 2) The Blanik AFM refers to flaring on landing.
>
> 3) The instructor is very concerned about the fragility of the tail
> wheel, so possibly this is the reason for his technique.
>
> So ... to flare or not? When solo, I mean.
>
> BTW, this is pretty neat stuff. I wish my first few hours of training
> had been in a glider. Certainly I would have learned to use the rudder
> much sooner!

[Brian]

I agree with your instructor, Let it land on the main wheel then gently
set the tailwheel on the groud.

I find the best way to arrest the descent it to reduce the spoilers
just as I start the Flair. This will just about stop your descent and
you should be floating down the runway a foot or so off of the runway.
It will eventually settle on the runway or you can hurry up the process
by adding the spoilers back. Works really well for spot landings.

Brian
CFIIG/ASEL

[[email protected]]

Mitty > wrote:
> I am learning to fly a Blanik L-23 and my instructor is telling me to
> "fly it on" with no flare.

In a discussion at Owl Canyon Gliderport (Colorado), I stated that I
expect a pilot to fly a stabilized approach to the round out,
and then fly in level attitude, and push off "a little" (to me means
"about an inch") of spoiler, to stop the sink, in order to settle to
the ground in level flight attitude and not land tail first, nor
land in "two point" attitude.
Yes, the above states that I expect a small spoiler adjustment
near the ground.

My written reference sources are:
The "Joy of Soaring", (1969 version), on page 47,
says to fly level (parallel) to the ground, "round out":

"..., the pilot smoothly rounds out the glide so that the flight
path becomes parallel to the ground at an altitude of a foot or
two."

The "Joy of Soaring", (1969 version), on page 47,
says to adjust the spoilers near the ground:

".... he (the pilot) regulates deceleration with the spoilers,
closing them to extend the float, and opening them wider to shorten
it."


In the "American Soaring Handbook", Book 2: Training, paragraph 7c4,
page 40 states:

"Unless a sailplane is to be landed in a minimum distance, it is
best to land it at a speed above stall by rolling the wheel on he
runway and holding it down in a manner similar to the procedure for
a wheel landing in a light-plane. ... it is important ... to apply
a slight forward force on the wheel or stick to prevent ballooning."

Further, in the "American Soaring Handbook", Book 2: Training,
paragraph 8e4, page 66 states:

"In making a landing, the student should be taught to hold a nearly
constant air speed on the final approach until within about 25 feet
of the ground. At this point the nose is gradually raised by
constant back pressure on the stick to produce a level-off at about
six inches above the ground. If one tries to maintain an altitude
of six inches without pulling the stick all the way back, the main
wheel will eventually touch the ground. When this happens, the
student should be taught to ease forward on the stick with just
enough force to hold the wheel on the ground ... as the airspeed
decreases the stick should be gradually brought to the full aft
position to hold the tail down without having the sailplane take to
the air".

Please note that I teach a stabilized approach, with constant
airspeed, to round out, and I do not teach a flare. I believe that
airplanes are flared to a landing to arrive in a nose up attitude at
stall, while gliders are flown onto the ground above stall, in level
flight attitude, and landed on the main wheel only. "Pushing off a
little spoiler during the round out will slow the descent rate, and is
intended to result in a roll-it-on landing."

Note that as a pilot progresses to higher performance ships,
(>33:1 L/D), there is less (to NO) need to reduce the spoilers.

Of course, spelling errors are mine.

Is my explanation sufficient, or would something be better explained
differently?

Best regards,

Jer/ "Flight instruction and mountain flying are my vocations!"
--
Jer/ (Slash) Eberhard, Mountain Flying Aviation, LTD, Ft Collins, CO
CELL 970 231-6325 EMAIL jer<at>frii.com http://users.frii.com/jer/
C-206 N9513G, CFII Airplane&Glider FAA-DEN Aviation Safety Counselor
CAP-CO Mission&Aircraft CheckPilot BM218 HAM N0FZD 240 Young Eagles!

[Vaughn Simon]

"Pete Brown" > wrote in message
...
> Mitty wrote:
>> I am learning to fly a Blanik L-23 and my instructor is telling me to "fly it
>> on" with no flare.
>
> Listen to the instructor.
>
>> 1) I am commercial/instrument rated with somewhere north of 1000 ASEL and a
>> few ASES landings in my logbook. I am _programmed_ to flare. :-) To not
>> flare is very hard for me.
>
> Well learn a new technique...Its easy and fun. The normal landing is similar
> to a wheel landing in a conventional (tail wheel) airplane.

One thing to consider is that the main wheels of gliders often barely peek
out from the fuze (to reduce drag) while an airplane's main wheels may stick out
three or four feet. A hefty flair in some gliders (they vary) will bang the
hell out the the tailwheel long before the main wheel can make contact with the
ground.

The learning problem works both ways. I flew gliders long before I flew
airplanes and CFIs still complain that my touchdowns are "kinda flat". I also
have a terrible time remembering that it is perfectly OK to land an airplane in
a crosswind without first leveling the wings.

Vaughn

[Brian]

> One thing to consider is that the main wheels of gliders often barely peek
>out from the fuze (to reduce drag) while an airplane's main wheels may stick out
>three or four feet. A hefty flair in some gliders (they vary) will bang the
>hell out the the tailwheel long before the main wheel can make contact with the
>ground.


I have watched an L23 landed this way, Tailwheel touches while the main
wheel is still 3 to 4 feet off of the ground. The main wheel will slam
down pretty hard when this is done. Doesn't look like a good landing
practice to me.

Brian
CFIIG/ASEL

[Burt Compton - Marfa]

Landing the Blanik L-23. Some thoughts for your consideration:

Look at the cover of your MARCH 2006 SOARING magazine to see a proper
"round-out" attitude when landing a Blanik L-23. Nice photo. I made
copies for my Blanik briefing handouts. Note the positive wing angle
of attack and incidence in that photo. Fly the wing.

Read your Blanik flight manual about landing technique. Chapter /
para. 4.4.4.
It says to land the L-23 on the main. For other gliders, read their
flight manuals!

Think "round-out" rather than "flare" or "wheel landing". "Round-out"
is probably British, so read Derek Piggott. He's British and a
brilliant instructor. Mentor to us all.

Also try a little less than full airbrake - just a bit - to make a nice
landing in an L-23. Note that the handle travel in the cockpit "slot"
does not correspond to the amount of airbrake out. Just bring it
forward an inch or so, to go from full airbrake to half airbrake. If
flying an older Blanik L-13, make darn sure you've got the airbrake
handle in hand and not the flap handle!

If you are a light pilot, apply full airbrake after touchdown to stick
it on the ground. If you bounce or "balloon", reduce airbrake to zero,
pitch nose down a bit and try it again!

However, when landing off-airport consider using full airbrake and
two-point for low energy, less roll out. Heavy wheel braking will put
a Blanik up on its nose, followed by a hard bang down onto the
tailwheel.

Never push a Blanik backwards especially in grass or rough ground.
Pull it by a shoulder harness strap, never by the wingtips. Never pull
ANY glider by the wingtips. (See flight manual.)

At Marfa in west Texas, I train pilots of all skill levels in my two
Blanik L-23's. They are quite stout. They are NOT fragile, nor is
anything wrong with the tailwheel design. IF you bang the tail down
hard many times or allow it to land tailwheel first, over time, after
many, many hard tailwheel landings, you might break something. Fly it
as recommended by the manufacturer. Read the instructions! This
concept works well with most flying machines, and when assembling
furniture from IKEA.

Maintain your glider. Check the tailwheel area often and replace the
three rubber donuts as required. Blanik America has them in stock.
Get some spare donuts. Drop the tailwheel out and grease the tailwheel
"post". Change the centering spring if needed. Grease the main gear
strut fittings often and especially when changing the tire - it's
easier without the tire in there! Blanik America can supply the
special grease gun fitting adaptor thingy. Keep the main gear shock
strut serviced with nitrogen. Again, read the service manual that came
with your glider. Vitek at Blanik America is very good about
obtaining the Czech parts and giving advice.

As for "wheel landings", I once suggested to a transition (Cub) pilot
that he try landing my Blanik like he would wheel-land a Cub. Geez, at
3 feet above the runway he shoved the stick forward hard and fast.
Banged us down so hard I was sure we broke something, but the mighty
Blanik took the punishment without damage. As I said, stout aircraft.
It wasn't good Cub wheel-landing technique either.

(As an instructor, one learns to be careful about what you suggest.
Best to take the stick and demonstrate it as many times as needed
rather than risk damage by the heavy-handed student who is guessing at
the proper site picture / technique.)

So think "round-out". Get the site picture right. Smile. Relax.
Broaden out your peripheral vision. See it all. Be one with the
glider. Listen to your Instructor, and when you go solo in the Blanik
L-23, don't try it any other way.

Have fun!

Burt Compton, Master CFIG, FAA Designated Pilot Examiner
Marfa Gliders, west Texas
www.flygliders.com

[Jeffrey Banks]

Here is the cover photo that Burt is referencing.

http://www.ssa.org/test/Covers/Cover200603_large.jpg

'Yey Adrian Soaring!!'





At 04:06 01 June 2006, Burt Compton - Marfa wrote:
>Landing the Blanik L-23. Some thoughts for your consideration:
>
>Look at the cover of your MARCH 2006 SOARING magazine
>to see a
proper
>'round-out' attitude when landing a Blanik L-23.
>Nice photo. I made
>copies for my Blanik briefing handouts. Note the positive
>wing angle
>of attack and incidence in that photo. Fly the wing.

[[email protected]]

"There is an improved
tailwheel on the new L-23's that is fixed and does not caster"

Yep. The new L23 we just bought has. It's a goddamn pain in the back
lifting the tail up to turn the glider around. Having someone sit in
the front seat helps. The CuNim club in Alberta has an L-13 with a
fixed tailwheel and a Grob type removable taildolly which was all
properly engineered as a Limited Supplemental Type Certificate. It
would be nice to have something like that on our L-23. Probably a
little expensive though.

The funny thing is we never had any trouble with the tailwheels on the
L-13's we've had but one of our L-23 with a castoring tailwheel had
it's tailwheel broken. The tail slammed into the ground after the
glider came to a stop, nose down, with the wheelbrake full on.

[Roger Worden]

I think the castering tailwheel makes landing rollout much easier for new
students. It makes it possible to steer the ship after a less-than-straight
touchdown. That's one of the things to learn when graduading to a more
advanced ship: that you may not have much freedom to turn. Landing perfectly
straight is an extra demand on a new student.

We have a couple of L-13's and have never had a problem with breaking the
tailwheels. Earlier someone said that you should not push them backwards,
but we do it all the time. We are just careful when pushing up onto a runway
or road: take it slow as you get the wheel up.

> wrote in message
oups.com...
> "There is an improved
> tailwheel on the new L-23's that is fixed and does not caster"
>
> Yep. The new L23 we just bought has. It's a goddamn pain in the back
> lifting the tail up to turn the glider around. Having someone sit in
> the front seat helps. The CuNim club in Alberta has an L-13 with a
> fixed tailwheel and a Grob type removable taildolly which was all
> properly engineered as a Limited Supplemental Type Certificate. It
> would be nice to have something like that on our L-23. Probably a
> little expensive though.
>
> The funny thing is we never had any trouble with the tailwheels on the
> L-13's we've had but one of our L-23 with a castoring tailwheel had
> it's tailwheel broken. The tail slammed into the ground after the
> glider came to a stop, nose down, with the wheelbrake full on.
>

[[email protected]]

On Tuesday, May 30, 2006 at 9:26:13 PM UTC-4, Mitty wrote:
> I am learning to fly a Blanik L-23 and my instructor is telling me to
> "fly it on" with no flare.
>
> 1) I am commercial/instrument rated with somewhere north of 1000 ASEL
> and a few ASES landings in my logbook. I am _programmed_ to flare.
> :-) To not flare is very hard for me.
>
> 2) The Blanik AFM refers to flaring on landing.
>
> 3) The instructor is very concerned about the fragility of the tail
> wheel, so possibly this is the reason for his technique.
>
> So ... to flare or not? When solo, I mean.
>
> BTW, this is pretty neat stuff. I wish my first few hours of training
> had been in a glider. Certainly I would have learned to use the
> rudder much sooner!

The flare required is minuscule ( to barely any) in the Blanik in comparison to a powered aircraft. Flaring will cause you to land on the tail wheel , followed by a hard nose wheel landing.It is Pretty much desirable to be in a straight and level attitude and settle in to a touch down. Landing the Blank in a controlled, straight and virtually level attitude will make the nose wheel touch first which is desirable and less stressful on the aircraft. In level attitude, the nose wheel is lower than the tailwheel . Don't know if you've done any helicopter flying, but the controls on the gliders are just as sensitive and responsive by comparison. In my experience, when I flare to stall for a landing in ,say a 152 cessna, I lose sight of what's in front of me and have to look out to the side of the aircraft to keep an eye on the runway. When landing the Blanik, the site picture of the runway in front of you should stay constant. Keep flying the glider , even on rollout and keep it level and off the tail wheel as long as possible

[Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot)]

Hopefully the original poster has figured things out 11 years later. Did you miss he last post date in this thread?