Badge Distance Penalties

[303SAM]

Need some help getting clear on terms, please.
I'm planning a Diamond Distance flight of 326 miles. The starting airfield
is at 300' msl. The finish will be at an airfield elev 1150' msl. If I
take a tow to 2300' msl, notch the baro, climb to 5000' msl and then cross
the start line am I penalized?

The safe and easy answer (I think) is to tow to no higher than 4431' (finish
height + 3281), release behind the start line, notch and cross the start
line, then climb up and start in earnest, but I'd like to be clear on the
terms. Is the height difference measured from tow release to finish or from
altitude when crossing the start line to finish?

Is an other safe answer to tow to 2300msl behind the start line, climb to
whatever altitude I can, and declare the release to be the starting point?

[Chris Reed]

From memory the rule is 1% of the flight length as the maximum excess
of start height over finish height. So you'd need to start no higher
than 5,000 metres (roughly 16,500 feet) above the finish. Check this out
in the Sporting Code (fai.org) but looks fine to me on the numbers you give.

I fly in the UK flatlands, so if I ever fly one of my planned 500k
flights the difference is not comething I'll need to worry about.

303SAM wrote:
> Need some help getting clear on terms, please.
> I'm planning a Diamond Distance flight of 326 miles. The starting airfield
> is at 300' msl. The finish will be at an airfield elev 1150' msl. If I
> take a tow to 2300' msl, notch the baro, climb to 5000' msl and then cross
> the start line am I penalized?
>
> The safe and easy answer (I think) is to tow to no higher than 4431' (finish
> height + 3281), release behind the start line, notch and cross the start
> line, then climb up and start in earnest, but I'd like to be clear on the
> terms. Is the height difference measured from tow release to finish or from
> altitude when crossing the start line to finish?
>
> Is an other safe answer to tow to 2300msl behind the start line, climb to
> whatever altitude I can, and declare the release to be the starting point?
>
>

[[email protected]]

I would use "release from tow" as my start point.

303SAM wrote:
> Need some help getting clear on terms, please.
> I'm planning a Diamond Distance flight of 326 miles. The starting airfield
> is at 300' msl. The finish will be at an airfield elev 1150' msl. If I
> take a tow to 2300' msl, notch the baro, climb to 5000' msl and then cross
> the start line am I penalized?
>
> The safe and easy answer (I think) is to tow to no higher than 4431' (finish
> height + 3281), release behind the start line, notch and cross the start
> line, then climb up and start in earnest, but I'd like to be clear on the
> terms. Is the height difference measured from tow release to finish or from
> altitude when crossing the start line to finish?
>
> Is an other safe answer to tow to 2300msl behind the start line, climb to
> whatever altitude I can, and declare the release to be the starting point?

[[email protected]]

The rule on the height diference is answered on the SAA web site:

Q. Is the altitude/distance penalty the same for the Diamond Distance
as for the Gold Distance?
A. Yes. For all flights over 100 km in distance, the loss of height
between the Start and Finish cannot exceed 1000 meters (3281 feet). If
it does, the distance is reduced by 100 times the excess over 1000
meters.

Q. How does the penalty work?
A. Here is an example:
Release altitude + 8,200 ft msl
Finish point - 4,000 ft msl
Difference + 4,200 feet

Allowance - 3,281 feet
Difference + 919 feet

919 x 100 = 91,900 feet
91,900 / 5,280 (ft. in a mile) = 17.4 miles.

The penalty of 17.4 miles must be deducted from the distance flown over
the course. The adjusted course distance must exceed the required
distance for the task. The required distance for the Diamond Distance
leg is 500 km (310.7 miles).


Chris Reed wrote:
> From memory the rule is 1% of the flight length as the maximum excess
> of start height over finish height. So you'd need to start no higher
> than 5,000 metres (roughly 16,500 feet) above the finish. Check this out
> in the Sporting Code (fai.org) but looks fine to me on the numbers you give.
>
> I fly in the UK flatlands, so if I ever fly one of my planned 500k
> flights the difference is not comething I'll need to worry about.
>
> 303SAM wrote:
> > Need some help getting clear on terms, please.
> > I'm planning a Diamond Distance flight of 326 miles. The starting airfield
> > is at 300' msl. The finish will be at an airfield elev 1150' msl. If I
> > take a tow to 2300' msl, notch the baro, climb to 5000' msl and then cross
> > the start line am I penalized?
> >
> > The safe and easy answer (I think) is to tow to no higher than 4431' (finish
> > height + 3281), release behind the start line, notch and cross the start
> > line, then climb up and start in earnest, but I'd like to be clear on the
> > terms. Is the height difference measured from tow release to finish or from
> > altitude when crossing the start line to finish?
> >
> > Is an other safe answer to tow to 2300msl behind the start line, climb to
> > whatever altitude I can, and declare the release to be the starting point?
> >
> >

[Edward Lockhart]

At 19:06 06 June 2006, 303sam wrote:
>Need some help getting clear on terms, please.
>I'm planning a Diamond Distance flight of 326 miles.
> The starting airfield
>is at 300' msl. The finish will be at an airfield
>elev 1150' msl. If I
>take a tow to 2300' msl, notch the baro, climb to 5000'
>msl and then cross
>the start line am I penalized?
>
>The safe and easy answer (I think) is to tow to no
>higher than 4431' (finish
>height + 3281), release behind the start line, notch
>and cross the start
>line, then climb up and start in earnest, but I'd like
>to be clear on the
>terms. Is the height difference measured from tow
>release to finish or from
>altitude when crossing the start line to finish?
>
>Is an other safe answer to tow to 2300msl behind the
>start line, climb to
>whatever altitude I can, and declare the release to
>be the starting point?
>
>
The start point can be whatever you want it to be:
http://www.fai.org/gliding/sc3.1.1
so if you release more than 500km from your finish,
you can say that your release point & altitude was
your start.

If you release 490km from your finish airfield, then
its the height at which you cross your predeclared
startline that matters.

On the other hand, your finish point can be whatever
you want so if you cross the startline at 5000', crossing
the finishline at 1800'+ won't incur any penalties.

So, option 1 will only be penalized if you release
<500km from the finish & cross the finishline below
1719' msl. Option 2 is fine; you don't need to cross
a start line, your release point and altitude is where
you start. Option 3 is cheaper.

Edward

[Martin Gregorie]

Edward Lockhart wrote:
> On the other hand, your finish point can be whatever
> you want so if you cross the startline at 5000', crossing
> the finishline at 1800'+ won't incur any penalties.
>
I don't think that's right. The rules take the height of your landing
point as the finish height. That makes the maximum penalty-free start
height is the surface height at your destination + 1000 m. You don't
need to put a notch on the trace for distance legs - only for height gain.

I did my Gold/Diamond Goal as a closed circuit and made damn sure I
crossed the start line at less than 3200 AGL. I did it off a 1400 ft AGL
winch launch, climbed to cloud base at nearly 4000 and then shed height
to about 3000 AGL to make the start.

HTH


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

[Papa3]

Martin Gregorie wrote:
> Edward Lockhart wrote:
> > On the other hand, your finish point can be whatever
> > you want so if you cross the startline at 5000', crossing
> > the finishline at 1800'+ won't incur any penalties.
> >
> I don't think that's right. The rules take the height of your landing
> point as the finish height. That makes the maximum penalty-free start
> height is the surface height at your destination + 1000 m. You don't
> need to put a notch on the trace for distance legs - only for height gain.
>


Actually, Edward was correct. Let's work through step by step. All
numbers in parens are from the Sporting Code:

"Loss of Height" (1.2.7) is defined as "The START ALTITUDE minus the
FINISH ALTITUDE"

START ALTITUDE (1.2.2) is the Altitude of the glider above sea level at
the Start.

FINISH ALTITUDE (1.2.4) is the Altitude of the glider above sea level
at the Finish.

So much for the easy definitions. The rest depends upon which of the
options you select for the Start and the Finish (following cut directly
from Sporting Code):

1.1.7 START The beginning of the SOARING PERFORMANCE. It must be
either:

a. The release from launch, or stopping the use of any means of
propulsion, or

b. Leaving the OBSERVATION ZONE of a START POINT, or

c. Crossing a START LINE. (AL6)

1.1.8 START POINT The WAY POINT marking the beginning of a SOARING
PERFORMANCE. It must be either:

a. The RELEASE POINT, or

b. A WAY POINT declared as a START POINT, or

c. The midpoint of a START LINE. (AL6)

1.1.12 FINISH POINT The WAY POINT marking the end of a SOARING
PERFORMANCE. It is:

a. The point at which the nose of the glider comes to rest without
external assistance after landing, or

b. A WAY POINT declared as the FINISH POINT or goal, or

c. The midpoint of a FINISH LINE, or

d. The point at which an MoP is started. (AL6)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
To summarize, the Loss of Height limits are subject to the specific
options you choose for your Start and Finish Points. With the
advent of GNSS FRs, the majority of claims I evaluate seem to be using
a declared Waypoint as a Start Point and a Finish Point. Not all of
them, but most.

Erik Mann
LS8-18 (P3)
SSA Record Keeper, NJ

[Basil]

Of course it depends on whether you are using a logger or a barograph.
If using a barograph then release height and landing height are the
only two points you can prove. If you are using a logger then any
point in the start sector can be your start (e.g. a lower one than
release) and any point in the finish sector can be your finish (e.g.
the height you crossed the finish line or the to[p of a climb in the
finish sector).

Basil

>
>Martin Gregorie wrote:
>> Edward Lockhart wrote:
>> > On the other hand, your finish point can be whatever
>> > you want so if you cross the startline at 5000', crossing
>> > the finishline at 1800'+ won't incur any penalties.
>> >
>> I don't think that's right. The rules take the height of your landing
>> point as the finish height. That makes the maximum penalty-free start
>> height is the surface height at your destination + 1000 m. You don't
>> need to put a notch on the trace for distance legs - only for height gain.
>>
>
>
>Actually, Edward was correct. Let's work through step by step. All
>numbers in parens are from the Sporting Code:
>
>"Loss of Height" (1.2.7) is defined as "The START ALTITUDE minus the
>FINISH ALTITUDE"
>
>START ALTITUDE (1.2.2) is the Altitude of the glider above sea level at
>the Start.
>
>FINISH ALTITUDE (1.2.4) is the Altitude of the glider above sea level
>at the Finish.
>
>So much for the easy definitions. The rest depends upon which of the
>options you select for the Start and the Finish (following cut directly
>from Sporting Code):
>
> 1.1.7 START The beginning of the SOARING PERFORMANCE. It must be
>either:
>
>a. The release from launch, or stopping the use of any means of
>propulsion, or
>
>b. Leaving the OBSERVATION ZONE of a START POINT, or
>
>c. Crossing a START LINE. (AL6)
>
>1.1.8 START POINT The WAY POINT marking the beginning of a SOARING
>PERFORMANCE. It must be either:
>
>a. The RELEASE POINT, or
>
>b. A WAY POINT declared as a START POINT, or
>
>c. The midpoint of a START LINE. (AL6)
>
> 1.1.12 FINISH POINT The WAY POINT marking the end of a SOARING
>PERFORMANCE. It is:
>
>a. The point at which the nose of the glider comes to rest without
>external assistance after landing, or
>
>b. A WAY POINT declared as the FINISH POINT or goal, or
>
>c. The midpoint of a FINISH LINE, or
>
>d. The point at which an MoP is started. (AL6)
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>To summarize, the Loss of Height limits are subject to the specific
>options you choose for your Start and Finish Points. With the
>advent of GNSS FRs, the majority of claims I evaluate seem to be using
>a declared Waypoint as a Start Point and a Finish Point. Not all of
>them, but most.
>
>Erik Mann
>LS8-18 (P3)
>SSA Record Keeper, NJ