Survival II

[[email protected]]

To All:

About a month ago I posted a message having to do with aircraft crash
survival in which I touched on the ability to make a fire, and the
features found in a good survival knife. The post produced the usual
comments some of which were rather surprising and may be of interest to
some of you.

MATCHES

The ability to make fire is fundamental to survival and, all else being
equal (never a safe bet :-) the handiest way to do so is to simply
strike a match. But based on the comments I received not everyone is
aware that matches come in two basic flavors and a variety of sizes.

The two basic types of match are those which may be scratched anywhere
versus the 'safety' type which can on be struck on an abrasive pad
treated with red phosphorus. The 'strike-anywhere' type are
preferred since there's no need to provide for the special
striking-surface.

The surprise came from hearing some folks insist that the
'strike-anywhere' type of match was not available, at least to
them. I assume they are the victim of some do-gooder regulation which
allows only the sale of 'safety-type' matches in their locale.

The splint or wooden portion of a standard kitchen match is 2-3/8" long
(ie, about 60mm). This length is a NECESSITY when lighting certain
lanterns and some gas-fired appliances. By comparison, a standard
'box-match' has a splint only 1-3/4" long (45mm). I was surprised
to learn that some people thought any WOODEN match was a 'kitchen'
match and referred to them as such. A couple of these folks mentioned
carrying 'kitchen' matches in a 35mm film canister; clearly
impossible since such canisters are only about 1-3/4" deep.

Another surprise had to do with water-proofing a wooden match.
Everyone who mentioned water-proofing said that simply dipping the head
of the match into melted paraffin would do the trick. And they're
right. But no one mentioned the need to REMOVE the wax before trying
to strike the thing, causing me to suspect they were simply repeating
something they'd heard. The paraffin makes an excellent water
barrier but it's also a very good lubricant. Since ignition of the
match depends upon FRICTION, if you don't remove the wax (or at
least, most of it) you'll simply scrub the head off the match without
ever causing it to light.

MATCH SAFES

Several people mentioned their preferred method of storing matches.
I've already mentioned the 35mm film canister, which is perfectly
suitable for the small, box-type matches. Others mentioned
commercially available match-safes, cigar tubes and even a specially
made jobbie a fellow turned from a bar of aluminum.

Personally, I've found a regular pill bottle from the local pharmacy
makes an excellent container for kitchen matches, water-proofed or
not. A couple of cotton balls keeps the matches from rattling around
and a few turns of duct-tape will keep the pill bottle from cracking
should it get banged around. In fact, since we're forced to ride the
plane down, you might consider taping a pill-bottle of matches to some
protected portion of the airframe.

IN DEFENSE OF THE BFK

As with ability to make fire, when it comes to survival the need for a
knife -- for the ability to cut things, beginning with your own safety
harness -- is fundamental. Experience has shown that a pocket-knife
that is HABITUALLY carried is more practical than a special-purpose
'survival knife' that is not. The key issue here is not the type of
knife nor its size but the fact you always have it with you.

Two people insisted their Rambo-esque knives were a necessity since
they might be needed to chop their way out of the downed aircraft. In
that case I think the wiser course is to permanently install such a
device in your cockpit and thereafter consider it as part of the
airplane rather than part of your survival kit.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

General Aviation attracts a lot of wingless vultures eager to make a
buck by preying upon the unwary. One method of doing so is to sell
junk disguised as kits of 'survival' gear. But when the problem of
post-crash survival is examined realistically it doesn't take a rocket
scientist to see that the average home-builder is liable to be better
prepared at lower cost (and less weight) by simply applying a bit of
common sense to the problem.

-R.S.Hoover

[[email protected]]

wrote:
>
>
>
> MATCHES
>
> ...
>
> The two basic types of match are those which may be scratched anywhere
> versus the 'safety' type which can on be struck on an abrasive pad
> treated with red phosphorus. The 'strike-anywhere' type are
> preferred since there's no need to provide for the special
> striking-surface.
>
> The surprise came from hearing some folks insist that the
> 'strike-anywhere' type of match was not available, at least to
> them. I assume they are the victim of some do-gooder regulation which
> allows only the sale of 'safety-type' matches in their locale.

This "do-gooder' legislation is some of the oldest occupational
health and safety legislation around. As a schoolkid I remember
reading that the use of white phosphorous in kitchen mathes had
been banned to protect the workers from the terible effects of the
material. That is in the early 1960s (when I read it) I don't recall
any mention of how long ago they had been banned, but I do
recall that Ohio Blue tip (stirke anywhere) matches were always
availabel locally so maybe the ban was incomplete or had
been eroding since the developement of automated manufacturing.

> ...
>
> Another surprise had to do with water-proofing a wooden match.
> Everyone who mentioned water-proofing said that simply dipping the head
> of the match into melted paraffin would do the trick. And they're
> right. But no one mentioned the need to REMOVE the wax before trying
> to strike the thing, causing me to suspect they were simply repeating
> something they'd heard. The paraffin makes an excellent water
> barrier but it's also a very good lubricant. Since ignition of the
> match depends upon FRICTION, if you don't remove the wax (or at
> least, most of it) you'll simply scrub the head off the match without
> ever causing it to light.

Indeed, my brother and I didn't realize that when we tried out
the aterproof matches I had bought. He nicknamed them
'fireproof' matches.

--

FF

[Montblack]

wrote)
> The 'strike-anywhere' type are preferred since there's no need to provide
> for the special
> striking-surface.

As kids, we would wait for a calm dark night to go out into the street with
our "farmer matches" and a straw. We'd "shoot" the matches out the straw, up
into the still night air, then wait to see where they landed. Hours of fun.
Pops would come out, shoot up a few himself, say, "neat - make sure you
watch out for cars," and return inside ...leaving us kids alone outside, to
play with matches. :-)

> Several people mentioned their preferred method of storing matches. I've
> already mentioned the 35mm film canister, which is perfectly suitable for
> the small, box-type matches.

ONE suggestion for camping is obvious (only "after" the first - oops. <g>)
Don't pack all your matches in ONE container.

Two or three containers: You'll be tripping over them all week.
One container: You'll misplace it - guaranteed! (BTDT)


Montblack

[who cares?]

In article m>, wrote:

>MATCHES
>
>The ability to make fire is fundamental to survival and, all else being
>equal (never a safe bet :-) the handiest way to do so is to simply
>strike a match. But based on the comments I received not everyone is
>aware that matches come in two basic flavors and a variety of sizes.
>


What about carrying one of those disposable cigarrette lighters that you can
buy at walmart for less than a dollar? You could put two or three of them in
an airplane if you like backups.

[Morgans]

"Montblack" > wrote

> As kids, we would wait for a calm dark night to go out into the street
> with our "farmer matches" and a straw. We'd "shoot" the matches out the
> straw, up into the still night air, then wait to see where they landed.
> Hours of fun. Pops would come out, shoot up a few himself, say, "neat -
> make sure you watch out for cars," and return inside ...leaving us kids
> alone outside, to play with matches. :-)

We found that if you wrapped aluminum foil over the tip, (broke off most of
the wood first) then shaped the aluminum over the back a little like a
rocket nozzle, you could shoot them a good distance. Just need heat on the
tip to get it started.
--
Jim in NC

[Tater Schuld]

> wrote in message
ps.com...
> To All:
>
excellent post veedub, but I would add a thought or two.

one should learn how to make a fire without matches. in a crashed vehicle
you have all sorts of materials that "should" be able to make the sparks
necessary to get a light. even if your battery croaks a permanent magnet
motor and a filament from a light bulb can torch up some tinder. even if the
battery fails it still might have enough juice to produce light up a flight
chart scraped up for tinder.

or a Fresnel lens, although only good during daylight hours.

regardless of the equipment, one needs the skill. how many of you can make a
fire with only one match? how many of you can make up tinder?

as for the knife, you hit it on the head veedub, chuck one in the plane and
forget it. all my vehicles have pocket knives. usually in the glove
compartment. a survival knife isn't worth it.

anecdote. the first season my dad went deer hunting he bought a 6 inch long
hunting knife, a fairly good one. after getting his first kill he realized
he did not know how to field dress a deer. luckily along came a man who was
more knowledgeable than my dad and offered to dress it for him. the gent
took out a tiny pocket knife and preceded to dress the deer, while my dad
felt a little sheepish with his 6 inch knife on his belt.

still has that 6 inch knife, good for splitting pelvises, but a two inch
blade is a bit better for field dressing.

[[email protected]]

who cares? wrote:
>>
> What about carrying one of those disposable cigarrette lighters that you can
> buy at walmart for less than a dollar?
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

While there's no reason NOT to include disposable flint or piezo
lighters in your survival kit, in practice you will find the larger,
hotter flame provided by a kitchen match to be more practical when it
comes to starting a fire using whatever tinder is locally available.

-R.S.Hoover

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

> wrote in message
ps.com...
> To All:
>
> About a month ago I posted a message having to do with aircraft crash
> survival in which I touched on the ability to make a fire, and the
> features found in a good survival knife. The post produced the usual
> comments some of which were rather surprising and may be of interest to
> some of you.
>
> MATCHES
>
The splint or wooden portion of a standard kitchen match is 2-3/8" long
> (ie, about 60mm). This length is a NECESSITY when lighting certain
> lanterns and some gas-fired appliances. By comparison, a standard
> 'box-match' has a splint only 1-3/4" long (45mm). I was surprised
> to learn that some people thought any WOODEN match was a 'kitchen'
> match and referred to them as such. A couple of these folks mentioned
> carrying 'kitchen' matches in a 35mm film canister; clearly
> impossible since such canisters are only about 1-3/4" deep.
>

Picking one little nit here, if you don't have something that needs the
length, once you snap off the excess wood, 2-3/8" matches fit just fine in a
1-3/4" canister.


>> General Aviation attracts a lot of wingless vultures eager to make a
> buck by preying upon the unwary. One method of doing so is to sell
> junk disguised as kits of 'survival' gear. But when the problem of
> post-crash survival is examined realistically it doesn't take a rocket
> scientist to see that the average home-builder is liable to be better
> prepared at lower cost (and less weight) by simply applying a bit of
> common sense to the problem.

Took a trip across Canada/Alaska in a C120, so of course we took "survival
gear". Talking to a "local" he suggested some snare wire - really handy
stuff - easy to catch rabbits and such for food he sez. Sure. Easy if you
have a clue as to what to do with it... I'm 99.9% sure that I'd never make
it work on my own. On the other hand, safety wire is a good thing to have
along for 101 uses. Duct tape wrapped around the handle of one of your
wrenches is handy too.

A little practice close to home so you know what to do with the stuff (and
if it works) makes a lot of sense, eh?

Anyhow, keep up the good work.

--
Geoff
The Sea Hawk at Wow Way d0t Com
remove spaces and make the obvious substitutions to reply by mail
When immigration is outlawed, only outlaws will immigrate.

[Ron Wanttaja]

On Thu, 8 Jun 2006 15:19:44 -0400, "Morgans" > wrote:

>
> "Montblack" > wrote
>
> > As kids, we would wait for a calm dark night to go out into the street
> > with our "farmer matches" and a straw. We'd "shoot" the matches out the
> > straw, up into the still night air, then wait to see where they landed.
> > Hours of fun. Pops would come out, shoot up a few himself, say, "neat -
> > make sure you watch out for cars," and return inside ...leaving us kids
> > alone outside, to play with matches. :-)
>
> We found that if you wrapped aluminum foil over the tip, (broke off most of
> the wood first) then shaped the aluminum over the back a little like a
> rocket nozzle, you could shoot them a good distance. Just need heat on the
> tip to get it started.

We used to disassemble a wooden clothespin, turn the two pieces of wood
back-to-back, and slip the steel spring over them with one "arm" inside. You
could then cock the spring and slip a farmer match between the jaws. The coil
spring was a natural trigger, and when you pulled it, the contrivance
simultaneously launched the match while igniting it.

Used to ride our bicycles in dogfights shooting at each other....

Ron Wanttaja

[David Kazdan]

My wife (who, in a previous life, did things like take two-week back
country canoe trips with her High Adventure Explorers post in Texas,
with responsibility for food and material planning for twelve 18-year
olds, ie, she can look out for herself) encouraged me to write:

We were car camping once in a rental car and wanted to start a camp
stove. We had very carefully packed matches. Turned out there are two
different kinds of even Ohio Blue Tips, safety- and non. Laura had
packed safety in a match safe. No strike-strip.

We fussed over the notion for several minutes that we had a car with a
full gas tank and a lot of readily available energy in its battery, and
we couldn't figure out how to light a safe fire. What to do?

I extracted a bulb from the brake light and crushed the glass envelope.
I instructed Laura to get in the car and step on the brake pedal when
told to do so. I held a match on the hot filament, lit the match, lit a
candle from the match, etc. We had a nice dinner.

We stopped at a hardware store on the way to the car drop-off point to
get a new bulb. We considered presenting the receipt to the rental
company: "We found that the bulb needed to be replaced..."

Keep track of match type.

David


wrote:
>
> The two basic types of match are those which may be scratched anywhere
> versus the 'safety' type which can on be struck on an abrasive pad
> treated with red phosphorus. The 'strike-anywhere' type are
> preferred since there's no need to provide for the special
> striking-surface.
>
> The surprise came from hearing some folks insist that the
> 'strike-anywhere' type of match was not available, at least to
> them. I assume they are the victim of some do-gooder regulation which
> allows only the sale of 'safety-type' matches in their locale.

[Montblack]

("Ron Wanttaja" wrote)
> The coil spring was a natural trigger, and when you pulled it, the
> contrivance simultaneously launched the match while igniting it.

> Used to ride our bicycles in dogfights shooting at each other....


Hey, you're the one who introduced clothespins...!!

I'd take you on with my rubber binder clothespin fly-shooter pistol. Yes,
using the"good" red rubber binders from the Butcher Shop!

"Another dud farmers match from Ron's gun. Ooh, I'm so scared."

Aim ......"Missed!"
Pedaling ..."Reload binder gun."
Pedaling ..."Aim."
Pedaling ..."Fire!"

"Thwat!"

"That's gotta hurt."


Mont-Black-Phantom
"Although some minor variants now compete in frequency, on the whole
Minnesota speech features such dominant Northern terms as andirons, pail,
mouth organ (harmonica), comforter (tied and filled bedcover), wishbone,
clingstone peach, sweet corn, angleworm (earthworm), darning needle or
mosquito hawk (dragonfly), and sick to the stomach. Minnesotans call the
grass strip between street and sidewalk the boulevard and a rubber band a
rubber binder, and many cook coffee when they brew it. Three-fourths of a
sample population spoke root with the vowel of put; one third, through
school influence, pronounced /ah/ in aunt instead of the usual Northern
short /a/, as in pants. Many younger speakers pronounce caller and collar
alike."

Having fun now - from wikipedia:
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rubber_band_gun#Types_of_rubber_band_gun>
"The rubber-band Gatling gun is a fearsome weapon...."

"Constructed almost wholly of wood, the Gatling gun usually has between 8
and 12 barrels, each of which can take up to twelve rubber bands on a
similar mechanism to the repeater pistol. This means a twelve-barrel Gatling
gun using twelve-shot repeater mechanisms can fire 144 rubber bands
automatically."

Cool.

[Montblack]

("David Kazdan" wrote)
> We fussed over the notion for several minutes that we had a car with a
> full gas tank and a lot of readily available energy in its battery, and we
> couldn't figure out how to light a safe fire. What to do?


Now I'm curious. Would the match have lit touching it on the exhaust
manifold - under the hood?


Montblack

[UltraJohn]

who cares? wrote:

> In article m>,
> wrote:
>
>>MATCHES
>>
>>The ability to make fire is fundamental to survival and, all else being
>>equal (never a safe bet :-) the handiest way to do so is to simply
>>strike a match. But based on the comments I received not everyone is
>>aware that matches come in two basic flavors and a variety of sizes.
>>
>
>
> What about carrying one of those disposable cigarrette lighters that you
> can
> buy at walmart for less than a dollar? You could put two or three of them
> in an airplane if you like backups.
Do you really want to carry one of those leaky propane "bombs" in your close
confine airplane with you? Maybe Maybe not!
High altitude pressurized gas could be interesting. No experience here, just
wondering out loud (can you hear my gears turning!).
John

[150flivver]

My survival kit has some "lifeboat matches" that are waterproof and
strike anywhere and burn much hotter than kitchen matches. I also
carry a metal match (flint with magneseum--you scrape some of the
magneseum onto your tinder and use the flint to light it.

[Richard Riley]

wrote:
>
> As with ability to make fire, when it comes to survival the need for a
> knife -- for the ability to cut things, beginning with your own safety
> harness -- is fundamental. Experience has shown that a pocket-knife
> that is HABITUALLY carried is more practical than a special-purpose
> 'survival knife' that is not. The key issue here is not the type of
> knife nor its size but the fact you always have it with you.

Hmmm.

I've learned that disagreeing with veedubber is not to be undertaken
lightly.

I *habitually* carry a leatherman wave on my belt. It occasionally
gets me an odd look at a meeting, but I tell them that my dying father
bought it for me after 9/11 and asked me to carry it every day. I also
carry an LED flashlight and a small Swiss army knife on my keyring.

I can make fire with a fire bow and my shoelace, but I think I'm going
to look at a little magnesium/flint firemaker for my keychain as well.

[Anthony W]

Montblack wrote:
> ("David Kazdan" wrote)
>> We fussed over the notion for several minutes that we had a car with a
>> full gas tank and a lot of readily available energy in its battery,
>> and we couldn't figure out how to light a safe fire. What to do?
>
>
> Now I'm curious. Would the match have lit touching it on the exhaust
> manifold - under the hood?
>
>
> Montblack

Don't cars come with cigarette lighters any more???

Tony

[john smith]

In article . com>,
"Richard Riley" > wrote:

> I also carry an LED flashlight and a small Swiss army knife
> on my keyring.

So do I!!! To which I add a flat ACR whistle and BIC lighter with duct
tape wrapped around it.

[Stealth Pilot]

On 8 Jun 2006 09:18:59 -0700, wrote:

>To All:
>
>About a month ago I posted a message having to do with aircraft crash
>survival in which I touched on the ability to make a fire, and the
>features found in a good survival knife. The post produced the usual
>comments some of which were rather surprising and may be of interest to
>some of you.
>

fires are good. make one in the australian outback and eventually
someone will show up to find out why it got lit. ....thats the theory.

if you really want to survive carry water.

a sheet of transparent plastic over a hole full of scrub with a stone
in the middle with a can underneath will collect enough water over
time in the sun to keep you alive.

when I'm travelling over the gaffa I carry all that stuff ....but I
attend to the maintenance first so that the aircraft will never give
me a problem.
Stealth Pilot

[Richard Riley]

Stealth Pilot wrote:
> if you really want to survive carry water.

of course, if you really, REALLY want to survive, carry a 406 mhz ELT
with a built in GPS, and lithium ion batteries.

And for the really, really REALLY folks, there's satellite phones.

[jerry wass]

john smith wrote:
> In article . com>,
> "Richard Riley" > wrote:
>
>
>>I also carry an LED flashlight and a small Swiss army knife
>>on my keyring.
>
>
> So do I!!! To which I add a flat ACR whistle and BIC lighter with duct
> tape wrapped around it.

That must be SOME KEYRING!!

[Rich S.]

"T o d d P a t t i s t" > wrote in message
...
> We always found we needed to use a pocket knife and
> slightly sharpen the shelf for the cocked spring to hold
> against. A third piece of wood (from another clothespin)
> could be used like a ramrod to quickly cock the spring.

We would score the wood slightly to help the match ignite or glue a bit of
sandpaper to the wood. Remember, I'm in the Northwet, so the clothespin was
always damp. :)

Rich S.

[john smith]

Rule of Three's

3 minutes without air (brain damage)
3 hours without water (dehydration)
3 days without sleep (loss of cognitive function)
3 weeks without food (tissue breakdown)

[Roger]

On 8 Jun 2006 09:42:43 -0700, wrote:

>
wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> MATCHES
>>
>> ...
>>
>> The two basic types of match are those which may be scratched anywhere
>> versus the 'safety' type which can on be struck on an abrasive pad
>> treated with red phosphorus. The 'strike-anywhere' type are
>> preferred since there's no need to provide for the special
>> striking-surface.
>>
>> The surprise came from hearing some folks insist that the
>> 'strike-anywhere' type of match was not available, at least to
>> them. I assume they are the victim of some do-gooder regulation which
>> allows only the sale of 'safety-type' matches in their locale.

Before the last long trip we took I specifically went shopping for
"kitchen matches" IE the ones that come in the large box. When I got
them home the damn things were safety matches and I didn't want to
have to take the whole box with me. After several days of hunting
with no success, I gave up.

I did find the Tapers (SP?) or fireplace matches work well, but are
expensive and you end up throwing most of each one away, but they are
great if you don't want to get too close to the fire. OTOH a box of
the things have enough wood to make a small fire <:-))

As to the paraffin, as a boy scout we dipped the whole match, usually
molding 6 or 8 together. When we wanted one a thumbnail would peel
one off the bunch and clean off the paraffin to the back of the tip.
You learned to hold them hot end up as with all that paraffin you
could get quite a blaze including your fingers when held hot end down.

The new LED flashlights are great. I have several. Some have switches
like the old flashlights that are momentary when pushed part way down
and toggle when pushed all the way down. If you know the Morse code
these can be really handy IF whoever sees it can read Morse. I have a
couple that are a single LED on a flexible "goose neck" and a clip
that will hold them to my shirt. The brightness is just right for the
panel. I had one of the earlier single LEDs that also was about the
right brightness and it would clip on to the bill of a cap which meant
they lit up where ever you were looking. Unfortunately the cheap
plastic clip broke. OTOH I have a TAC light with 5 LEDs and they
are BRIGHT!. In the center is a single red LED that can be seen from a
long way off.

Knives: I almost always carry a "box cutter" that folds up like a
jack knife, is all metal, has extra blades, and clips to my belt.
There is usually one in the glove compartment with the spare batteries
and flashlights.

Tinder: You look for tinder with a chart case full of bible paper?

Of course this is assuming that you can get back to the stuff in the
plane you are not carrying on you.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

[Jase Vanover]

The favourite when I was a kid was cutting a small hole in a ping pong ball,
cutting the heads off enough "strike anywhere" matches to nearly fill the
ping pong ball, a bit of tape to cover the hole, and throw it at
any(thing)/(one) you wanted to scare the **** out of. Big bang...


"T o d d P a t t i s t" > wrote in message
...
> "Rich S." > wrote:
>
>>We would score the wood slightly to help the match ignite or glue a bit of
>>sandpaper to the wood. Remember, I'm in the Northwet, so the clothespin
>>was
>>always damp. :)
>
> I was in Texas. The impact of the spring on the head was
> usually enough to start it for us. It's been a long time,
> but I vaguely recall a double barrelled version with two
> clothespins held together top to bottom.
> --
> T o d d P a t t i s t
> (Remove DONTSPAMME from address to email reply.)
>
> Make a commitment to learn something from every flight.
> Share what you learn.

[Bill Daniels]

"T o d d P a t t i s t" > wrote in message
...
> Ron Wanttaja > wrote:
>
>>We used to disassemble a wooden clothespin, turn the two pieces of wood
>>back-to-back, and slip the steel spring over them with one "arm" inside.
>>You
>>could then cock the spring and slip a farmer match between the jaws. The
>>coil
>>spring was a natural trigger, and when you pulled it, the contrivance
>>simultaneously launched the match while igniting it.
>
> We always found we needed to use a pocket knife and
> slightly sharpen the shelf for the cocked spring to hold
> against. A third piece of wood (from another clothespin)
> could be used like a ramrod to quickly cock the spring.
>
> --
> T o d d P a t t i s t
> (Remove DONTSPAMME from address to email reply.)
>
> Make a commitment to learn something from every flight.
> Share what you learn.

You guys bring back memories.

No one mentioned that a carefully selected kitchen match would fit down the
bore of a Daisy BB gun. The Daisy could deliver the match with athority
resulting in a satisfying "POP' on impact and burning phosphorus shrapnel
for a couple of inches around the impact point - very deadly when used
against a horsefly on a concrete sidewalk. Ocasionally, a match would
ignite in the barrel creating an interesting tracer-like effect.
Fortunately, I grew up in a desert where almost nothing would burn.

bildan

[Bill Daniels]

"Richard Riley" > wrote in message
ups.com...
>
> Stealth Pilot wrote:
>> if you really want to survive carry water.
>
> of course, if you really, REALLY want to survive, carry a 406 mhz ELT
> with a built in GPS, and lithium ion batteries.
>
> And for the really, really REALLY folks, there's satellite phones.
>

That's the right idea - communicate.

Level one: Cell phone. Satellite phone for the really paranoid.
Level two: VHF radio to call an airliner on center frequnecy or 121.5 and
ask for help.
Level three: Handheld strobe at night and signal mirror for day. (Smoke
bombs and flares are fun if you get bored.)

For comfort at night, no fire is needed just roll up in a space blanket or
parachute. Don't forget bug repellent.

Basic need is water. A Katydyn water filter is standard USMC kit. For
glider types, retain a few gallons of ballast water and filter with the
Katydyn before drinking.

Knife? well I have a hook knife in a pocket on my parachute to cut shroud
lines - otherwise, I plan to stay out of knife fights.

bildan

[Richard Riley]

Bill Daniels wrote:
> Basic need is water. A Katydyn water filter is standard USMC kit. For
> glider types, retain a few gallons of ballast water and filter with the
> Katydyn before drinking.

What is Katdyn? I haven't heard fo it before.

For water purification, the most interesting thing I've come across is
this.

http://www.miox.com/News/CDI_MIOX_License.html

Expensive ($130 at REI) but elegant.

[Stella Starr]

Jase Vanover wrote:
cutting a small hole in a ping pong ball,
> cutting the heads off enough "strike anywhere" matches to nearly fill the
> ping pong ball, a bit of tape to cover the hole, and throw it at
> any(thing)/(one)

KEWL!

I'm pretty sure there are state regulations, as I've bought the
strike-anywhere kind in some states (illinois, Missouri) but in others
(Iowa, Minnesota) can only find strike-on-the-box matches no matter how
hard I look. Camping outfitters are a good idea for a source, though.

Anecdote: On a high-school camping trip, a bunch of boys were scrambling
down the rocks when one discovered a handful of matches he'd stashed in
his pocket had scraped against each other and they all ignited. In the
front pocket of his jeans. He disrobed with memorable speed, though to
my disappointment I only heard the story second-hand.

Thanks to good girl-scout training, I lay a good fire and can build one
ready to start with one match, even if no paper's available. A popular
skill at keggers...er, survival expeditions.

[Roger]

On Fri, 09 Jun 2006 20:31:50 -0400, Bryan Martin
> wrote:

>In article >,
> Roger > wrote:
>
>> On 8 Jun 2006 09:42:43 -0700, wrote:
>>
>> >
>> wrote:
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> MATCHES
>> >>
>> >> ...
>> >>
>> >> The two basic types of match are those which may be scratched anywhere
>> >> versus the 'safety' type which can on be struck on an abrasive pad
>> >> treated with red phosphorus. The 'strike-anywhere' type are
>> >> preferred since there's no need to provide for the special
>> >> striking-surface.
>> >>
>> >> The surprise came from hearing some folks insist that the
>> >> 'strike-anywhere' type of match was not available, at least to
>> >> them. I assume they are the victim of some do-gooder regulation which
>> >> allows only the sale of 'safety-type' matches in their locale.
>>
>> Before the last long trip we took I specifically went shopping for
>> "kitchen matches" IE the ones that come in the large box. When I got
>> them home the damn things were safety matches and I didn't want to
>> have to take the whole box with me. After several days of hunting
>> with no success, I gave up.
>>
>>
>> Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
>> (N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
>> www.rogerhalstead.com
>
>The only place I could find strike anywhere matches was at Ace Hardware.
>They were on a shelf at the far end of the store about as far as you
>could get from the main entrance (in the end of the downtown Midland
>store towards Main Street). I don't know if I would have found them if I
>hadn't asked the salesman where to find them. None of the sporting goods
>stores I checked had anything but safety matches.

Thanks Bryan. If my memory lasts until tomorrow I'll pick some up.
OTOH maybe I'd better write myself a note. <:-))

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

[Stealth Pilot]

On Fri, 9 Jun 2006 19:26:42 -0600, "Bill Daniels"
<bildan@comcast-dot-net> wrote:

>
>"Richard Riley" > wrote in message
ups.com...
>>
>> Stealth Pilot wrote:
>>> if you really want to survive carry water.
>>
>> of course, if you really, REALLY want to survive, carry a 406 mhz ELT
>> with a built in GPS, and lithium ion batteries.
>>
>> And for the really, really REALLY folks, there's satellite phones.
>>
>
>That's the right idea - communicate.
>
>Level one: Cell phone. Satellite phone for the really paranoid.
>Level two: VHF radio to call an airliner on center frequnecy or 121.5 and
>ask for help.
>Level three: Handheld strobe at night and signal mirror for day. (Smoke
>bombs and flares are fun if you get bored.)
>
>For comfort at night, no fire is needed just roll up in a space blanket or
>parachute. Don't forget bug repellent.
>

the fire is not for comfort. the smoke is a very visible signal by day
and the glow of a campfire can be seen from 50 miles away.

I agree with the rest but good maintenance is the best way of
preventing the problem in the first place.



>Basic need is water. A Katydyn water filter is standard USMC kit. For
>glider types, retain a few gallons of ballast water and filter with the
>Katydyn before drinking.
>
>Knife? well I have a hook knife in a pocket on my parachute to cut shroud
>lines - otherwise, I plan to stay out of knife fights.
>
>bildan
>

[nondem]

No Honda vehicles do at all nor the associated ashtrays. I think there
are others too.
Now instead of lighters - they call them power-ports and they won't
work a lighter element.

It's hell trying to light a joint.


Anthony W wrote:

>
> Don't cars come with cigarette lighters any more???
>
> Tony

[Tater Schuld]

"Roger" > wrote in message
...
> On 8 Jun 2006 09:42:43 -0700, wrote:
>
>>
wrote:
>>>
>>> MATCHES
>
> Before the last long trip we took I specifically went shopping for
> "kitchen matches" IE the ones that come in the large box. When I got
> them home the damn things were safety matches and I didn't want to
> have to take the whole box with me. After several days of hunting
> with no success, I gave up.

cut a strip of the striker paper off the box same size as a match. should
fit in the waterproof container just as well

> Tinder: You look for tinder with a chart case full of bible paper?
>
> Of course this is assuming that you can get back to the stuff in the
> plane you are not carrying on you.

that was part of it. the other part of it was that I am not a pilot and am
not sure what the contents of pilots gear is. I can assume that most chart
cases are hardboard covered in vinyl making for some watertight tinder cases
(you shave bits of the hardboard with a piece of wreckage or a sharp stone)
shaving the stuff to the consistency of cotton candy gets you tinder that is
very hard not to get to light, even in damp conditions.

[Tater Schuld]

"john smith" > wrote in message
...
> Rule of Three's
>
> 3 minutes without air (brain damage)
> 3 hours without water (dehydration)

I should be dead many times over if this was true. I've been 12 hours
without food and water and i still talk

> 3 days without sleep (loss of cognitive function)
> 3 weeks without food (tissue breakdown)

[EDR]

In article om>,
Richard Riley > wrote:

> For water purification, the most interesting thing I've come across is
> this.
>
> http://www.miox.com/News/CDI_MIOX_License.html

I have one. I bought it on sale for $100 at campmor.com last summer.
First I filter with an MSR MiniWorks filter, then I purify with the
MIOX.
I use to just filter, but the more I read, the more I realized how
lucky I have been in the past. So I added the purifier.

[Morgans]

"Stealth Pilot" > wrote

> I agree with the rest but good maintenance is the best way of
> preventing the problem in the first place.

All of the maintenance in the world is not going to protect you, when we
have major engine manufacturers making faulty cranks, and such.
--
Jim in NC

[Roger]

On Sat, 10 Jun 2006 11:21:55 -0500, "Tater Schuld"
> wrote:

>
>"john smith" > wrote in message
...
>> Rule of Three's
>>
>> 3 minutes without air (brain damage)
>> 3 hours without water (dehydration)
>
>I should be dead many times over if this was true. I've been 12 hours
>without food and water and i still talk

But they said coherent.<:-))

>
>> 3 days without sleep (loss of cognitive function)

I suffer from this every morning. Roll out of bed into the praying
position, then crawl up the wall or bed (which ever is closer), then
stagger along trying to find the kitchen or bathroom which ever is the
more important at the moment. About 10 minutes later my eyes are open,
but I still have trouble remembering I heat the coffee in the
microwave and not the refrigerator and ... Never mine... If you've
been there you understand and if you haven't you won't. <:-))

After half an hour my motor skills are good enough to drive the
car...I didn't claim it was safe. By the time I get to the airport I
remember which hangar is mine and by the time I can get that lock to
work my mind is finally kicking into gear so I remember to open the
big doors before trying to taxi.

Did I mention I don't wake up quickly?
Ohhh Yah... I gave up drinking coffee.

>> 3 weeks without food (tissue breakdown)

8 to 10 hours and my stomach starts digesting itself.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

>

[David Kazdan]

Rentals in general don't; at least, this one didn't.

David

nondem wrote:
> No Honda vehicles do at all nor the associated ashtrays. I think there
> are others too.
> Now instead of lighters - they call them power-ports and they won't
> work a lighter element.
>
> It's hell trying to light a joint.
>
>
> Anthony W wrote:
>
>
>>Don't cars come with cigarette lighters any more???
>>
>>Tony
>
>

[Stealth Pilot]

On Sat, 10 Jun 2006 13:41:25 -0400, "Morgans"
> wrote:

>
>"Stealth Pilot" > wrote
>
>> I agree with the rest but good maintenance is the best way of
>> preventing the problem in the first place.
>
>All of the maintenance in the world is not going to protect you, when we
>have major engine manufacturers making faulty cranks, and such.


true. but neither will a packet of matches :-)

Stealth Pilot

[Big John]

As an aside. When I bailed out in a snow storm in the arctic
(Greenland) I took the booklet included in my survival pack and tore
out the tropical instructions and used to start a small fire.

On matches the kit contained a small container that held 12 or so
'kitchen' style matches. Container was water proof and anyone
interested might look in some of the military surplus stores to see if
they have any.

While there was water in the survival kit in a sealed container, I
always carried about a extra quart of water in several smaller
containers. If one got broken in crash I still would have extra water
(which is a life saver).

Heavy coat, gloves and knit cap. Set of knit long johns would be nice
also. For those who say don't need this in summer need to send a few
night in mountains where it gets cold at night even in the summer.
This clothing if selected with the down or plastic filling can be
rolled into a very small package and only weigh a couple of pounds. It
can be stuffed in almost any little space in cabin that is not used
for any thing else. Air out at least once a year.

A knife and other things are also high priorty but basic life saving
items are a necessity.

Hope you'all never have to use a survival kit.

Big John
`````````````````````````````````````````

On Fri, 09 Jun 2006 17:49:54 -0400, Roger
> wrote:

>On 8 Jun 2006 09:42:43 -0700, wrote:
>
>>
wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> MATCHES
>>>
>>> ...
>>>
>>> The two basic types of match are those which may be scratched anywhere
>>> versus the 'safety' type which can on be struck on an abrasive pad
>>> treated with red phosphorus. The 'strike-anywhere' type are
>>> preferred since there's no need to provide for the special
>>> striking-surface.
>>>
>>> The surprise came from hearing some folks insist that the
>>> 'strike-anywhere' type of match was not available, at least to
>>> them. I assume they are the victim of some do-gooder regulation which
>>> allows only the sale of 'safety-type' matches in their locale.
>
>Before the last long trip we took I specifically went shopping for
>"kitchen matches" IE the ones that come in the large box. When I got
>them home the damn things were safety matches and I didn't want to
>have to take the whole box with me. After several days of hunting
>with no success, I gave up.
>
>I did find the Tapers (SP?) or fireplace matches work well, but are
>expensive and you end up throwing most of each one away, but they are
>great if you don't want to get too close to the fire. OTOH a box of
>the things have enough wood to make a small fire <:-))
>
>As to the paraffin, as a boy scout we dipped the whole match, usually
>molding 6 or 8 together. When we wanted one a thumbnail would peel
>one off the bunch and clean off the paraffin to the back of the tip.
>You learned to hold them hot end up as with all that paraffin you
>could get quite a blaze including your fingers when held hot end down.
>
>The new LED flashlights are great. I have several. Some have switches
>like the old flashlights that are momentary when pushed part way down
>and toggle when pushed all the way down. If you know the Morse code
>these can be really handy IF whoever sees it can read Morse. I have a
>couple that are a single LED on a flexible "goose neck" and a clip
>that will hold them to my shirt. The brightness is just right for the
>panel. I had one of the earlier single LEDs that also was about the
>right brightness and it would clip on to the bill of a cap which meant
>they lit up where ever you were looking. Unfortunately the cheap
>plastic clip broke. OTOH I have a TAC light with 5 LEDs and they
>are BRIGHT!. In the center is a single red LED that can be seen from a
>long way off.
>
>Knives: I almost always carry a "box cutter" that folds up like a
>jack knife, is all metal, has extra blades, and clips to my belt.
>There is usually one in the glove compartment with the spare batteries
>and flashlights.
>
>Tinder: You look for tinder with a chart case full of bible paper?
>
>Of course this is assuming that you can get back to the stuff in the
>plane you are not carrying on you.
>
>Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
>(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
>www.rogerhalstead.com

[Bill Daniels]

"Big John" > wrote in message
...
> As an aside. When I bailed out in a snow storm in the arctic
> (Greenland) I took the booklet included in my survival pack and tore
> out the tropical instructions and used to start a small fire.
>
> On matches the kit contained a small container that held 12 or so
> 'kitchen' style matches. Container was water proof and anyone
> interested might look in some of the military surplus stores to see if
> they have any.
>
> While there was water in the survival kit in a sealed container, I
> always carried about a extra quart of water in several smaller
> containers. If one got broken in crash I still would have extra water
> (which is a life saver).
>
> Heavy coat, gloves and knit cap. Set of knit long johns would be nice
> also. For those who say don't need this in summer need to send a few
> night in mountains where it gets cold at night even in the summer.
> This clothing if selected with the down or plastic filling can be
> rolled into a very small package and only weigh a couple of pounds. It
> can be stuffed in almost any little space in cabin that is not used
> for any thing else. Air out at least once a year.
>
> A knife and other things are also high priorty but basic life saving
> items are a necessity.
>
> Hope you'all never have to use a survival kit.
>
> Big John
> `````````````````````````````````````````
>
> On Fri, 09 Jun 2006 17:49:54 -0400, Roger
> > wrote:
>
>>On 8 Jun 2006 09:42:43 -0700, wrote:
>>
>>>
wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> MATCHES
>>>>
>>>> ...
>>>>
>>>> The two basic types of match are those which may be scratched anywhere
>>>> versus the 'safety' type which can on be struck on an abrasive pad
>>>> treated with red phosphorus. The 'strike-anywhere' type are
>>>> preferred since there's no need to provide for the special
>>>> striking-surface.
>>>>
>>>> The surprise came from hearing some folks insist that the
>>>> 'strike-anywhere' type of match was not available, at least to
>>>> them. I assume they are the victim of some do-gooder regulation which
>>>> allows only the sale of 'safety-type' matches in their locale.
>>
>>Before the last long trip we took I specifically went shopping for
>>"kitchen matches" IE the ones that come in the large box. When I got
>>them home the damn things were safety matches and I didn't want to
>>have to take the whole box with me. After several days of hunting
>>with no success, I gave up.
>>
>>I did find the Tapers (SP?) or fireplace matches work well, but are
>>expensive and you end up throwing most of each one away, but they are
>>great if you don't want to get too close to the fire. OTOH a box of
>>the things have enough wood to make a small fire <:-))
>>
>>As to the paraffin, as a boy scout we dipped the whole match, usually
>>molding 6 or 8 together. When we wanted one a thumbnail would peel
>>one off the bunch and clean off the paraffin to the back of the tip.
>>You learned to hold them hot end up as with all that paraffin you
>>could get quite a blaze including your fingers when held hot end down.
>>
>>The new LED flashlights are great. I have several. Some have switches
>>like the old flashlights that are momentary when pushed part way down
>>and toggle when pushed all the way down. If you know the Morse code
>>these can be really handy IF whoever sees it can read Morse. I have a
>>couple that are a single LED on a flexible "goose neck" and a clip
>>that will hold them to my shirt. The brightness is just right for the
>>panel. I had one of the earlier single LEDs that also was about the
>>right brightness and it would clip on to the bill of a cap which meant
>>they lit up where ever you were looking. Unfortunately the cheap
>>plastic clip broke. OTOH I have a TAC light with 5 LEDs and they
>>are BRIGHT!. In the center is a single red LED that can be seen from a
>>long way off.
>>
>>Knives: I almost always carry a "box cutter" that folds up like a
>>jack knife, is all metal, has extra blades, and clips to my belt.
>>There is usually one in the glove compartment with the spare batteries
>>and flashlights.
>>
>>Tinder: You look for tinder with a chart case full of bible paper?
>>
>>Of course this is assuming that you can get back to the stuff in the
>>plane you are not carrying on you.
>>
>>Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
>>(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
>>www.rogerhalstead.com
>

I've been there and done that several times.

Real story:

I'm down in the mountains at 8200 foot elevation at a deserted airstrip
having landed a glider there at about 8PM. Crewperson is 350 road miles
away and doesn't have a car charger for the cell phone which has dying
battery. Crewperson also has a problem with the idea of travel from A to
B. I THINK crew knows where I am.

I'm dressed in shorts and T-shirt. I have three liters of water left in my
water pack and a Pemican Meal Bar in my survival vest which does nicely for
the evening meal. A quick check of my 12V sealed lead acid battery shows
12.6 volts after 7.5 hours airborne - the radio will work if I need it.

It's cool and getting colder by the minute so I get back in the cockpit and
close up. After a while it gets cold in the cockpit and the canopy starts
to fog over so I break out the space blanket from the vest. Now I'm toasty
but sweaty. I think about a fire but there's nothing even remotely flamable
in sight - anyway the fire danger is extreme and theres a "Red flag" warning
in effect for wildfires. Lighting a fire might get expensive with the
fines. I'll stick with warm and sweaty. After a while I work out a
ventillation scheme that gets the humidity out of the cockpit - much better.

The remaining problem is boredom. There's a lighted runway about 35 miles
away with pilot controlled lighting so I try 5 clicks on 122.8 and lo! the
runway lights come on - kewl. Then, just visible in the moonlight, a grey
fox trots by and freezes when hes sees what must look to him like a huge
wounded bird with one wing on the ground. He cautiously approaches the nose
until I wiggle the rudder. He jumps three feet straight up and streaks out
of sight.

Still worrying about whether my crew got my position before their cell phone
died, I try a passing airliner on 121.5 and get a quick response. I explain
my situation and get an offer of help. In a few minutes, he calls back to
say that his operations folks have called my departure airport. They know
my situation and my crew is on the way - ETA 1AM. Jeez! That A to B thing
again. I thank the guys in the big airplane and settle in.

Crew arrives at midnight to find me asleep. We're on the road with the
glider in the trailer in 15 minutes. Crew then complains about being tired
and hungry. Darn! No Rambo knife. We get a very early breakfast at a truck
stop and all ends well.

BTW, I notice that Satellite phones rent for less than $30 a week and air
time is about $1.50 a minute with no pre-paid minutes. If you plan a flight
over wilderness areas, that might be worth it if you wanted assured
communication.

bildan

[john smith]

In article >,
Big John > wrote:

> As an aside. When I bailed out in a snow storm in the arctic
> (Greenland) I took the booklet included in my survival pack and tore
> out the tropical instructions and used to start a small fire.

John... you cannot dangle one of your stories like that and leave us
hanging.
Tell us the particulars!

[Big John]

John

Have told story before.

Was leading a flight of 3 T-33's to Iceland to replace three that were
due overhaul. Got to Sondrustrom (Greenland) and a gaggle of F-5's
were trying to land and we held for over an hour before being cleared
for approach. Had about 75 gallons which would have been plenty for a
straight in. Let down at max rate but still high on glide path so they
gave us a 360 to lose more height. This put us behind a mountain and
we lost radio contact. I went to Guard channel and was able to get
contact. As we came up on glide slope again they forgot I was on Guard
and tried to talk to me on descrete channel so flight overshot final
so was sent around. At that time I had 15 Gallons in a snow storm and
in a Fiord with high terrain on both sides that was snow covered so
couldn't see ground if wanted to.

Made decision to punch so climbed to altitude and punched. Was picked
up about 4 hours later by a Danish chopper. All four pilots survived
and birds were only valued at about $65,000 due to deprecation so not
a very expensive accident.

Lots of things I did right to survive so am thankful to be here today.

This is the short abbreviated version to give you the flavor.

Fly safe.

Big John
`````````````````````````````````````````````````` `````````````````````````

On Sun, 11 Jun 2006 21:44:34 GMT, john smith > wrote:

>In article >,
> Big John > wrote:
>
>> As an aside. When I bailed out in a snow storm in the arctic
>> (Greenland) I took the booklet included in my survival pack and tore
>> out the tropical instructions and used to start a small fire.
>
>John... you cannot dangle one of your stories like that and leave us
>hanging.
>Tell us the particulars!

[john smith]

In article >,
Big John > wrote:

> Have told story before.

Thanks Big John. I hadn't heard it before.

[Modelflyer]

"Rich S." > wrote in message
. ..
> "T o d d P a t t i s t" > wrote in message
> ...
>> We always found we needed to use a pocket knife and
>> slightly sharpen the shelf for the cocked spring to hold
>> against. A third piece of wood (from another clothespin)
>> could be used like a ramrod to quickly cock the spring.
>
> We would score the wood slightly to help the match ignite or glue a bit of
> sandpaper to the wood. Remember, I'm in the Northwet, so the clothespin
> was always damp. :)

Funny, we call them clothspegs here in Ireland, I suppose it's the same in
the UK.
--
..
..
Cheers,
Model Flyer
MS880B EI-BFR


>
> Rich S.
>

[Montblack[_1_]]

("Modelflyer" wrote)
> Funny, we call them clothspegs here in Ireland, I suppose it's the same in
> the UK.


In Minnesota we say "rubber binders" for "rubber bands."

It goes back to a group of teachers, from New England, who came to Minnesota
in the mid 1800's. They were from a region in New England (forget where)
that used the term "rubber binders" ...for "rubber bands". As far as author
Stuart Flexner could discover, these are the only two pockets of population,
in the country, where the majority of the people still say "rubber binders."

(From Wikipedia)
Stuart Berg Flexner (1928–90) was a lexicographer, editor and author, noted
for his books on the origins of American words and expressions, including [I
Hear America Talking] and [Listening to America]; as co-editor of the
[Dictionary of American Slang]; and as chief editor of the [Random House
Dictionary, Second Edition].

I Hear America Talking: An Illustrated Treasury of American Words and
Phrases (1976)

Listening to America: An Illustrated History of Words and Phrases from our
Lively and Splendid Past (1982)

At $2 (plus shipping) I think I'll order myself a hardcover copy - of each.
Mom has the books I leafed through ...25-30 years ago. I want my own copies.
:-)

This was a very good 8 Part series! Catch it if it comes around again.
http://imdb.com/title/tt0198245/
The Story of English (1986)


Montblack